Updated CAPR 35-5 released today (11 Aug 14)

[Eclipse]

Regardless of whether I am a Lt Col, a major, or a captain has no bearing on my work or my authority.

And that's very magnanimous of you, the problem is that isn't true for all the members, nor for the organization as a whole.

The message is that grade isn't important, except it is, other then when it isn't, though normally it is, and you should aspire,
but you know, some can't really wear it, um...what was the question?

[LSThiker]

Thanks.

nor for the organization as a whole.

Do not know if that is true.  In my neck of the woods, as long as the pilot can fly, he does not care whether he is a 1st Lt or a lt Col.  The same is true for the ES all the time people.  In fact, I have surpassed many members that that were members when I was a cadet.  It has not affected them as they are still wing operations officers, wing safety, etc.  as long as they are doing the job they like, rank is not important to them. 

Now whether that is correct or not, is an entirely different topic.  One that really I won't get into.

[Eclipse]

You've characterized the challenge nicely.

Grade and PD is wholly unnecessary to participate fully in the core missions, yet loads of time
and calories are spent around the issue.  It's meaningless in a meaningful kind of way.

When you walk in the door you want it, and by the time you get it you realize it wasn't that big a deal.

[lordmonar]

Eclipse....you seem to arguing both sides of the issue now.

Bottom line......here are the rules to get the rank.

PD courses, Sepcialty Levels, TIG, pleasing the promotion boards.

35-5 has changed....it is now harder to get Lt Col.  Some specialty tracks are harder to get Senior and Master then others.

Nothing.....nothing has fundamentally changed.

Fill the boxes, do your time, please the promotion board.

That is the same.

Now Lt Col costs more of your time, more of your money.    It should be hard to get Lt Col.

I still think it is too easy to get Lt Col.

If you don't want to advance in your specialty track, don't want to go to the next level of PD......then you won't get promoted.

If Silver Oaks are what you want....here are the hoops to jump through.

And remember.....just because you have jumped through the hoops....does not mean you will get your promotion.

No one......I SAY AGAIN.....no one is being punished.    It is just the way it is.

Sure it sucks that last week you may have been looking forward to putting in your promotion request.....now you got to fill one more hoop.    Sorry that it sucks that it means spending a week down in Montgomery. 

But I can't see what the problem is beyond those who are going to be disappointed and now have a little more to do.

I don't see how this is going to hurt the organization in any way.   

[Panache]

I still think it is too easy to get Lt Col.

Spoken like somebody who has no skin in this particular game.

[FloridaCaptain]

I'll say this, they have definitely upped the requirements, which frankly I don't mind very much. I was 1 month away from being eligible for promotion to Major, now I need Level IV. SOS is an attractive option for me. If you can't do SOS because you don't have a bachelors degree, do what others have done and go get one, I did, and I don't mind the perks in life that occasionally come with it. So what is the big deal, I have more to do?  I have barely touched my PD for 2 years now, because I didn't need to...So now I will.  Oh my did they actually add more to a program we pay to be a part of ?  Folks the reality here is, it affects nothing!  You want something to complain about, we can talk about the new CPPT albatross...    :clap:

[lordmonar]

I still think it is too easy to get Lt Col.

Spoken like somebody who has no skin in this particular game.

No.....spoken like someone who quit the game because it had no meaning, it was too easy to play, and the opponents where not in my weight class. 

Sorry to be blunt.....but really.   I was six months from putting on Lt Col when I decided to just be a MSgt.   And this what before there was any talk about being able to promote.

I think it is silly that a CAP member can become a Lt Col in CAP with out ever......EVER holding any sort of significant staff position outside of the squadron.   Never ever have to hold command.

I would have added mandatory group/wing/regional staff time for members seeking promotion beyond Capt.   I would certainly require significant staff time at wing/region/national level for anyone seeking Lt Col.

And that's not to say that those guys who like working their squadron staff job are not important.....but it is capt work.....and if that is as far as you want to do....good for you Capt.

If wearing oak leaves is something that you aspire to......then here is how you do that.

It is exactly what the NCO corp is doing with their top three ranks.

Want to be  MSgt.....where here it is....this is the job you got to have and this is the PD levels you got to get and you got to do it for this long or you lose your rank.

So.....you all complain about how hard it is going to be Lt Col now....I'm working on making CMSgt......from where I sit right now....that's a SEVEN year commitment and getting my Level V and I have to deal with a quota.

[FW]

You've characterized the challenge nicely.

Grade and PD is wholly unnecessary to participate fully in the core missions, yet loads of time
and calories are spent around the issue.  It's meaningless in a meaningful kind of way.

When you walk in the door you want it, and by the time you get it you realize it wasn't that big a deal.

Interesting hypothosis.  My advancement thru the PD program helped me a great deal.  Not only did I learn more about CAP, I met many members who became my friends, improved my management skills (which helped in my mission skills), and advanced in grade (which cost me money in buying insignia, and coffee for serving  ).  Is this "meaningless in a meaningful kind of way"?  Not to me.  I continue to enjoy the journey; even the bumps.  I am happy I went the course, and would reccomend it to anyone.  Yes, it has become a bit more time consuming and costly to achieve grade.  It may "weed out" some good candidates for command, but I think the changes are good. 

Members don't have to advance.  Many don't.  It's ok.  Finding a meaningful place is the important part of joining.  Everything else is extra....

[Storm Chaser]

+1

[ColonelJack]

+1 to Col. Weiss.

I too have no skin in this game ... I'm already a Lt Col and that's as high as I'm ever going to get.  I also earned my Level V back about 20+ years ago and that's as high in PD as I'm ever going to get.  (Heck, I had Level V while still a major - but that's just me.)

And a +1 to MSgt Harris too - it should be difficult to make lieutenant colonel.  Anyone who wants silver bottlecaps can earn them ... if they want to.  Making it a little more time-consuming (and expensive) doesn't prevent anyone from doing so.  It actually gives you more of the sense of having earned something that not everyone else will get.

Jack

[AirAux]

Jack,  I didn't think they had Level V 20 years ago, I thought that was relatively new, like in the last 10 years.  Am I wrong on that??  We had Level IV back then, but I think it topped out with that..

[Garibaldi]

+1 to Col. Weiss.

I too have no skin in this game ... I'm already a Lt Col and that's as high as I'm ever going to get.  I also earned my Level V back about 20+ years ago and that's as high in PD as I'm ever going to get.  (Heck, I had Level V while still a major - but that's just me.)

And a +1 to MSgt Harris too - it should be difficult to make lieutenant colonel.  Anyone who wants silver bottlecaps can earn them ... if they want to.  Making it a little more time-consuming (and expensive) doesn't prevent anyone from doing so.  It actually gives you more of the sense of having earned something that not everyone else will get.

Jack

I agree, but for those of us who do not have a college degree, and can't go to RSC for one reason or another, it seems there is no other alternative but to stay a major for life. I cannot, and do not, want to go to RSC. I cannot finish my degree, so even though I do not want to promote to Lt Col, being told I can't due to the aforementioned reasons above seems very maddening. At one time, I had enrolled in the correspondence course alternative, but for one reason and another I couldn't finish it, and that option is closed to me because I don't have a degree.

I guess since I don't want to promote this all is moot, but there are others in the same boat who DO want to go as far as they can.

[Eclipse]

Eclipse....you seem to arguing both sides of the issue now.

Yes, I've said that about 4 times.   I agree with the stepping, not the transition.

The average member, with the average service does not have the options, nor the atypical access and activities
you have.  They don't have the option to wake up one day and decide to trade their "irrelevant" metal
for "irrelevant" stripes on a whim, and pencil whip PD because of unrelated external classes.

The average member who is on the fence here, especially in the Major / Lt Col area, has about 10 years in,
strong experience in CAP with good overall effort and initiative.

They have a garage full of SAR gear they have no use for because of the shrinking operational mission.

They have a closet full of uniforms they never wear either because they can't wear them anymore or
because CAP isn't active even at the level it was when they joined, so there's no place to wear them, anyway.

They attend meetings and watch as the number of people in the room gets less and less every year.

They look around their wing as they see units fold every year.

They hear a lot of rhetoric about "new missions" and "renewed involvement", that winds up
never even getting passed the brochure, being far outside CAP's core, or stays locked in the same GOB they have never been in.

Then something like this comes up, they sigh, add it all up, and start spending less time worrying about going
to meetings and more time catching up on American Ninja.  They don't quit right away because of
sunk cost and some feelings of commitment they still feel towards the organization, so they renew, maybe a couple of
times.

People start asking "Where's Jim?"  "Meh, has other stuff to do, etc., etc."

Meanwhile CAP churns something like 30% of new members and most never get to the level that replaces Jim.

Not hurting CAP at all...

[Eclipse]

Members don't have to advance.  Many don't.  It's ok.  Finding a meaningful place is the important part of joining.  Everything else is extra....

Except that's not how CAP characterizes the situation.

PD is important unless no one else will take the job, at which time, that's more important.

Promoting isn't important, except to those that do.

The organization needs to pick a vector and stick with it, including the harder work it makes for the
leadership when you tell people things are important and that shrinks your pool of manpower.

How can you have a paramilitary organization where people are fully allowed to participate in
the grade and PD structure, or not, at their whim, and still say you're a team with a straight face?

[LSThiker]

Jack,  I didn't think they had Level V 20 years ago, I thought that was relatively new, like in the last 10 years.  Am I wrong on that??  We had Level IV back then, but I think it topped out with that..

CAP Report to Congress 1964:

The new, five-phase Senior Training Program commenced April 20, 1964. 

[AirAux]

LSThiker, thanks for the info, I guess i was too busy to pay attention to it back then.

Eclipse, one other thing, I feel that 90-95% of recruiting comes from members talking to nonmembers.  If the enthusiasm is gone, if morale sucketh, will anybody be bringing anybody in?? 

[LSThiker]

there are others in the same boat who DO want to go as far as they can.

Either Level 3 is as far as they can go or they pony up the money to go to RSC and NSC.  We force cadets to pony up the money to go encampment for cadet officer and RCLS/COS for C/Lt Col.  Yes, it costs more for seniors and there is more logistics involved.  So the real question, as posed by Ned, how do you lower the cost to attend the programs?

[FW]

Members don't have to advance.  Many don't.  It's ok.  Finding a meaningful place is the important part of joining.  Everything else is extra....

Except that's not how CAP characterizes the situation.

PD is important unless no one else will take the job, at which time, that's more important.

Promoting isn't important, except to those that do.



The organization needs to pick a vector and stick with it, including the harder work it makes for the
leadership when you tell people things are important and that shrinks your pool of manpower.

How can you have a paramilitary organization where people are fully allowed to participate in
the grade and PD structure, or not, at their whim, and still say you're a team with a straight face?

Such is the nature of a volunteer organization.  There is no requirement to advance.  Even the "requirements" for National Commander are "fluid".  I don't think there is a really good answer to your question.  You are part of the team by virtue of your paid up membership card.  What a member does after paying dues is up to them.  We can only lead them to the path of advancement. We can use every tool to help them see the way, however it's up to the individual member to take that step. Successful leaders can motivate members to progress.  Not to brag, but I got 3 of my former cadets to get their Wilson and become wing kings, and two members of my staff to "go there" . Someone motivated me to progress.  I'm sure you had your motivators, and motivated others.  It's a process.  CAPR 35-5 is just a guide.  Where do we go from here?

[Eclipse]

Where do we go from here?

How about requirements instead of suggestions?

All the other organizations we look like or aspire to be have those.

[ColonelJack]

Jack,  I didn't think they had Level V 20 years ago, I thought that was relatively new, like in the last 10 years.  Am I wrong on that??  We had Level IV back then, but I think it topped out with that..

I'm glad somebody else chimed in with the date involved.  My GRW is dated 1991, which is more than 20 years ago ... and which comes at the end of the PD program, Level V.

Jack