Updated CAPR 35-5 released today (11 Aug 14)

[Eclipse]

There is no requirement that PD, or any training for that matter, be accomplished to hold >any< staff job,
and in a paradigm of "you're lucky I showed up at all", good luck with implementing that mandate.

Wing / Region IGs have to take the IG Basic on line, attend a Senior course and then IG College. I think Safety has some similar requirements.

Wing & region IG and assistants can be appointed with no particular skills or experience.
The IG needs to complete the IC college within the next cycle, and the A/IG(s) need to complete
the IG senior course within 13 months of appointment.

Safety needs the basic online Safety course and nothing else.

The only ramifications for non-compliance, just like any other CAP staff job, would be a discrepancy during a CI.
Those only happen every two years.

Just between us kids, how do you think the real-world handles the lack of compliance when no one else wants those jobs?
You could be a wing IG or safety officer for at least two years before the subject even came up in conversation.

[LSThiker]

If Major and Lt Col are off the table for some people, then I would imagine the interest in Senior and Master
are going to wane as well.  As I said before "unintended consequences".

In the previous program, Lt Col was off the table.  So the unintended consequences were the same then as it is now, just not able to obtain major.  Instead of stalling at Major, they now stall at Captain.

How do you figure it was off the table before?

You said, if Major and Lt Col are off the table, thus meaning Levels 4 and 5 are off the table.  So under the old program, Levels 4 and 5 would have been Lt Col.  Thus, Lt Col was off the table in the previous requirements.

Also, since a Master rating only requires Level III, not being able to obtain Levels 4 and 5 are the same regardless of whether it was the old or the new requirements.  Thus, the "unintended consequences" are the same before as they are now. 

[Eclipse]

You said, if Major and Lt Col are off the table, thus meaning Levels 4 and 5 are off the table.  So under the old program, Levels 4 and 5 would have been Lt Col.  Thus, Lt Col was off the table in the previous requirements.

Level IV was Lt Col.  Level V was a $1200 ribbon and a photo in front of the plane.
Something to do if you were bored or looking to check another box on the CAP bucket list, but unconnected to any progression.

Under the old system, Level IV was much more attainable then now.  RSC was the only pinchpoint, and
that is offered >8< times a year, and if you got the lucky draw of being in a wing that offered it,
you could even be a day player and not incur the expense of travel and lodging.  I drove to mine and
shared a hotel room.  It was about $600.

NSC is only offered once a year, in one place, which means there will be seat constraints as well
as the expense.  A nice way to back-channel hold someone back is to simply not approve their NSC application.
Not to mention the $1200+ it costs to get there and attend.

Considering the rest of Level V are classes offered locally (relatively speaking), under the old system,
Lt Col cost ~$7-800 in hard costs, it now costs over $2000. CAP professional development and progression
should not be dependent on writing a check.  RSC was bad enough, and held a lot of people back as it was.

Also, since a Master rating only requires Level III, not being able to obtain Levels 4 and 5 are the same regardless of whether it was the old or the new requirements.  Thus, the "unintended consequences" are the same before as they are now.

I'm having trouble parsing that sentence.

Level III requires a >senior< rating, not a master.  Level IV still requires a master as before.
If your personal circumstance precludes you from RSC, why bother with the master?  You top out at Captain,
hot glue the senior pin on your shirt and forget about bothering with any more PD.

Another unintended consequence - less people interested in being directors of SLS/CLS, etc.  A lot of members only
stepped up when the clock started ticking on Level IV.

Another - the last incentive of getting pilots to "kit-up" on PD is gone.  They are already Captains, with no chance
of Major.  Why bother?

However, again, I'm not against the idea of raising the bar, the PD levels are actually more properly aligned now,
it's the transition that is wrong and unfair.

I know "life's not fair" - maybe that should be added to the exit surveys.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Speaking only for myself: I'm happy that you need to take SOS or RSC for a promotion to major. Frankly, I think SOS — yes, the Air Force PME course — should be required for captain. The only snag for CAP members is that you need to have a bachelor's degree to take SOS. But the things SOS teaches are things you need to effectively and intelligently run a unit and to be a good officer. Maybe CAP should develop a course for lieutenants that matches much of SOS.

[Eclipse]

Speaking only for myself: I'm happy that you need to take SOS or RSC for a promotion to major. Frankly, I think SOS — yes, the Air Force PME course — should be required for captain. The only snag for CAP members is that you need to have a bachelor's degree to take SOS. But the things SOS teaches are things you need to effectively and intelligently run a unit and to be a good officer. Maybe CAP should develop a course for lieutenants that matches much of SOS.

I don't understand why CAP can't ask for a waiver on the degree requirements for this.

[LSThiker]

You said, if Major and Lt Col are off the table, thus meaning Levels 4 and 5 are off the table.  So under the old program, Levels 4 and 5 would have been Lt Col.  Thus, Lt Col was off the table in the previous requirements.

Level IV was Lt Col.  Level V was a $1200 ribbon and a photo in front of the plane.

Yes I know.  The rest of the prices have nothing to do with what you said earlier, which is what I was replying to:

If Major and Lt Col are off the table for some people, then I would imagine the interest in Senior and Master
are going to wane as well.  As I said before "unintended consequences".

Again, if, as you claim above, major and Lt Col are off the table for some people because they cannot get Level 4 and 5 (due to what ever reason), they stall at Level 3.  This is the same thing in the previous program.  If the person cannot obtain Level 4 and 5 (due to what ever reason), they stall at Level 3.  So instead of stalling at major (old), they now only stall at captain.  Therefore, the unintended consequences are the same now as they were a week ago. 

Also, since a Master rating only requires Level III, not being able to obtain Levels 4 and 5 are the same regardless of whether it was the old or the new requirements.  Thus, the "unintended consequences" are the same before as they are now.

I'm having trouble parsing that sentence.

Level III requires a >senior< rating, not a master.  Level IV still requires a master as before.
If your personal circumstance precludes you from RSC, why bother with the master? 

Yes I know.  To get Level 3 requires Senior Rating.  To get a Master rating requires Level III. 

If your personal circumstance precludes you from RSC, why bother with the master?

The same question could be asked 3 months ago as it can be asked today.  Nothing has changed.  If they were not able to go to RSC before the change, then why bother with the master?

[Ned]

When I attended NSC a couple of years ago, I submitted a fairly detailed AAR and one of my primary criticisms was the cost to the student.  In my year, government quarters were not available and the class resided at a local hotel.  (CAP had negotiated a substantial discount, but it was still more expensive than the BOQ).

My cost that year was about $1,500 (airfare into tiny little Montgomery is not very competative).  Some of my classmates faced much smaller costs (lived close enough to drive,etc) and some had their costs underwritten by their units.

Regardless of whether the cost to the student is $1,500 or less,  the cost level is still too high and the result means that only folks who can afford to pay that kind of money will be able to play.  And that in turn affects the demographics of our senior leadership. 

But it is easy to spot the problem, but harder to find a satisfactory answer.  It is easy to say that "NHQ should just find $100,000 a year and use it to pay for airfare, billetting, and class fees" and a lot harder to either identify what could be cut to pay for it or find a new revenue stream.  ("The Mircrosoft National Staff Colllege," perhaps?    )

Of course, the choices are not simply "too expensive" or "free" there is a lot of room in the middle.

Any ideas for reducing the cost of Staff College?

[LSThiker]

Any ideas for reducing the cost of Staff College?

How are the quarters for COS worked out to keep the program at $450 per cadet?

[Eclipse]

Any ideas for reducing the cost of Staff College?

Eliminate it as irrelevant (based on what I have seen in the curriculum).

Offer NSC as a Region activity as well - no reason it has to be at Maxwell.
More then once a year and make the staff travel instead of the students.

Offer a correspondence option open to all members.

[Eclipse]

If they were not able to go to RSC before the change, then why bother with the master?

How can you say "nothing has changed".

It's gone from $600 and one week to $2000 and two weeks.

That's another "not Nesa" "not encampment" or "not Osh Kosh".

Members would get the Master in hopes of having the opportunity for RSC, plus it got them to Major.

Also it's only been what, a year or two that the correspondence options closed for many members?

[Jaison009]

I'm right there with you. I took SLS, finished Lv 2, earned my Yeager, Tech in PD, CP and waiting my TIG until Dec. Now I have to do 2 conferences, get senior rating, and CLC  . This new crap sucks for the non-aviators...

Two days away from finishing SLS and Level II and they change the rules.  Great.

I really could have used the extra money from the Captain promotion! 

[LSThiker]

If they were not able to go to RSC before the change, then why bother with the master?

How can you say "nothing has changed".

It's gone from $600 and one week to $2000 and two weeks.

That's another "not Nesa" "not encampment" or "not Osh Kosh".

Members would get the Master in hopes of having the opportunity for RSC, plus it got them to Major.

Also it's only been what, a year or two that the correspondence options closed for many members?

Okay, I will explain this once more. 

Had the change never occurred, level 4 would still cost $600 and level V would still cost $1200.  With the change, level 4 costs $600 and level V would still cost $1200.  Nothing has changed in that regard.  Again, price does not matter in this regard.  The only thing this system has changed is that at Level 3, they are no longer able to call themselves major. 

So with the current system:  Members would get the Master in hopes of having the opportunity for RSC.  This is the same with the old system except they do not get to be promoted to major. 

Again, nothing has changed except the fact that at Level 3 they can be promoted to captains and level 4 they can be promoted to majors and level 5 they can be promoted to Lt Col. 

So if as you are claiming, a person says well I cannot make level 4 because I cannot go to RSC so no need to make master or senior rating, this same argument is true had the change never occurred.  The only difference is that they won't get promoted to major, but their PD levels are the same. 

Therefore, any unintended consequences are the same before the change as it was after the change except for the fact that at level 3, they won't be called major.

The new system has not changed anyone's ability to obtain a PD level.  It has only affected their title/rank.  If you were unable to obtain Level 4 before the change due to cost, then you still will not be able to obtain level 4 after the change.  The change has not affected anyone's ability to obtain a PD level.

So a person claiming that there is no reason to go any higher than tech because they cannot obtain Level 4, would still make the same argument before the change.  Therefore, nothing has changed in this regard.  So if the only reason a person got a master rating was so that they could be called major and not captain, I guess they are more worried about the rank. 

So a wing that has 400 captains and 4 majors is no different than a wing that has 400 majors and 4 captains.  Over all, nothing has changed for CAP as a whole.

Understand now?

[Storm Chaser]

I got it the first time.

[Ned]

Any ideas for reducing the cost of Staff College?

Eliminate it as irrelevant (base don what I have seen in the curriculum.

Offer NSC as a Region activity as well - no reason it has to be at Maxwell.
More then once a year and make the staff travel instead of the students.

Offer a correspondence option open to all members.

I actually thought the curricula was well thought out and appropriate for the most part.  And the reason that it is held at Maxwell is the same reason we have COS there -- the extensive use of AF instructors from the Squadron Officers College and ACSC who are stationed there, as well as access to the support provided by the corporate staff at NHQ.  It is theoretically possible, of course, to fly the AF instructors and supporting CAP corporate staffers to another location.  I haven't run the numbers, but it might not result in a significant cost savings.

In theory, it is also possible to use qualified CAP volunteer instructors for the classes currently taught by our AF colleauges and use additional volunteer staff in lieu of the support we receive from corporate employees.  Certainly worth looking at, but I would be concerned about changing the fundamental nature of the course by elminating the AF instructors.

One of the key differences between COS and NSC is that -- because CP is a Congressionally and AFI-directed mission -- the AF authorizes the use of appropriated funds to pay for the cadets' travel and some expenses associated with COS.  There is no similar provision that would permit the expenditure of appropriated  funds for senior member professional development.  Sounds strange, but makes sense when you look at it from their perspective.

[Eclipse]

Over all, nothing has changed for CAP as a whole.

Wow - maybe this is the attitude that allowed this to pass.

No one said the PD changed.

It's the incentive to complete it that has changed. 

I also think it's quite remarkable that you can discount the fact that a huge percentage of members now do not have the possibility of making major,
as if that will have no effect on the organization.  The average member had only 5 lifetime promotions to look forward to, now it's only 3.

I can tell you for a fact that the general attitude in this regard is "Well there's no reason I can't make major, which is fine, and someday I might be
able to get to Lt Col".  Now it will be "well Captain is it", and those pilots get it for writing a check, so what's the point?"

This doesn't add weight, authority, or incentive to grade.  It only adds irrelevant hurdles.  It's somebody's "good idea", and probably
started as a good-faith effort to revamp the system as a whole, and by the time the naysayers were done, this is all that could get through
because it didn't effect anyone in the room.

Show me a situation where you require all >current< officers to make PD level by 2018, and I'll show you a plan with some teeth.
This just annoys the monkey to no actual value.

[abdsp51]

Yep, someones thought of a good idea.  They'll get a commanders comm probably a national one for it and who cares about the people it impacts. 

[Eclipse]

I actually thought the curricula was well thought out and appropriate for the most part.  And the reason that it is held at Maxwell is the same reason we have COS there -- the extensive use of AF instructors from the Squadron Officers College and ACSC who are stationed there, as well as access to the support provided by the corporate staff at NHQ.  It is theoretically possible, of course, to fly the AF instructors and supporting CAP corporate staffers to another location.  I haven't run the numbers, but it might not result in a significant cost savings.

I'll say this, the singular advantage of having it at Maxwell is the ability for NHQ to insure a consistency of execution and
presentation.  The RSC I attended (at which I was the distinguished graduate, just sayin'), was a poorly executed
rehash of SLS topics presented literally on transparencies and included a trip to the Circus.

It was essentially band camp for the staff at the expense of the participants.  Thankfully that group has been moved out and
a fresh set of staffers are running it.

[LSThiker]

It's the incentive to complete it that has changed.

If your incentive is to be called major at level 3 instead of captain, then yes your incentive has changed.  If your incentive is to obtain your  personal highest PD level, which in this case is level 3, then no it has not. 

The average member had only 5 lifetime promotions to look forward to, now it's only 3.

Explain your math on this one because a person that is unable to obtain level 4 has 4 promotions under the old system.  With the current system, it is 3 promotions.  This only affects you if the only thing you are worrying about is what your title is.  Regardless of whether I am a Lt Col, a major, or a captain has no bearing on my work or my authority.

[LSThiker]

One of the key differences between COS and NSC is that -- because CP is a Congressionally and AFI-directed mission -- the AF authorizes the use of appropriated funds to pay for the cadets' travel and some expenses associated with COS.  There is no similar provision that would permit the expenditure of appropriated  funds for senior member professional development.  Sounds strange, but makes sense when you look at it from their perspective.

Makes sense really.  Just did not know that.

[Simplex]

The comment "well Captain it is" rings true for me. I was eligible for Major 1 July 2014. The promotion was not, has not, been submitted by the Squadron CC. There's no way I can afford to attend RSC unless it's not too far from where I live which is very unlikely. And getting to Montgomery some day.....no way. Maybe, things will change for the better, correspondence courses are a possibility...maybe I'll win the lottery, buy a plane and have someone fly me to.......oh, sorry I must have dosed off there. So I guess for now, I'll shine my boots, press the BDU's and carry on. Captain for Life....not so bad.