Updated CAPR 35-5 released today (11 Aug 14)

[catrulz]

There is one waiver of promotion requirement per CAP career and the same for Exceptional Qualifications. You give the impression that these actions are routine, but as Wing DP for 10 years, I only had 3 cross my desk. One was approved.

Can you cite a regulation for that?

Don't want to put words in his mouth, but I believe MSG Mac meant limitation, not requirement.  A one waiver per career limitation has always been the policy in 35-5.  And yes waivers are rare, and like LtCol promotions and awards are for the most part popularity contests anyways.

I don't think CAP is going to lose a lot of membership over this.  But, as previously stated, and made obvious by the posts on this thread, it is a de-motivator.  Don't misread that to mean people will not be motivated, but that people will loose this as a carrot/morale boost.   

[JeffDG]

There is one waiver of promotion requirement per CAP career and the same for Exceptional Qualifications. You give the impression that these actions are routine, but as Wing DP for 10 years, I only had 3 cross my desk. One was approved.

Can you cite a regulation for that?

Don't want to put words in his mouth, but I believe MSG Mac meant limitation, not requirement.  A one waiver per career limitation has always been the policy in 35-5.  And yes waivers are rare, and like LtCol promotions and awards are for the most part popularity contests anyways.

I don't think CAP is going to lose a lot of membership over this.  But, as previously stated, and made obvious by the posts on this thread, it is a de-motivator.  Don't misread that to mean people will not be motivated, but that people will loose this as a carrot/morale boost.

The "once in a lifetime" is not policy, it's not in any regulation anywhere.  Nowhere is it written that you can only have one, or that you can have one at all.  If a member justifies 3 waivers, then they will get 3 waivers.  If they don't justify any, then they won't receive any.

[catrulz]

There is one waiver of promotion requirement per CAP career and the same for Exceptional Qualifications. You give the impression that these actions are routine, but as Wing DP for 10 years, I only had 3 cross my desk. One was approved.

Can you cite a regulation for that?

Don't want to put words in his mouth, but I believe MSG Mac meant limitation, not requirement.  A one waiver per career limitation has always been the policy in 35-5.  And yes waivers are rare, and like LtCol promotions and awards are for the most part popularity contests anyways.

I don't think CAP is going to lose a lot of membership over this.  But, as previously stated, and made obvious by the posts on this thread, it is a de-motivator.  Don't misread that to mean people will not be motivated, but that people will loose this as a carrot/morale boost.

I think we'll all "Shut Up And Color", but tolerating a policy is not endorsement of.  Nor was anyone from above looking for endorsement, obviously.  This not well thought out policy, where most people used to max out at LtCol most will not max at Capt or Maj.  Okay for those that came in to primarily to support the kids, questionable for those that decided to make this a long lasting hobby/serious volunteer activity.   

[catrulz]

There is one waiver of promotion requirement per CAP career and the same for Exceptional Qualifications. You give the impression that these actions are routine, but as Wing DP for 10 years, I only had 3 cross my desk. One was approved.

Can you cite a regulation for that?

Don't want to put words in his mouth, but I believe MSG Mac meant limitation, not requirement.  A one waiver per career limitation has always been the policy in 35-5.  And yes waivers are rare, and like LtCol promotions and awards are for the most part popularity contests anyways.

I don't think CAP is going to lose a lot of membership over this.  But, as previously stated, and made obvious by the posts on this thread, it is a de-motivator.  Don't misread that to mean people will not be motivated, but that people will loose this as a carrot/morale boost.

The "once in a lifetime" is not policy, it's not in any regulation anywhere.  Nowhere is it written that you can only have one, or that you can have one at all.  If a member justifies 3 waivers, then they will get 3 waivers.  If they don't justify any, then they won't receive any.

You are correct, in both the current and Jun 2014 issues of CAPR 35-5 there is no limit on waivers.  But there was in older versions.  When I initially joined there was a sub-section in 35-5 titled Waivers.  I may have an older version at home on a flash drive or external.   And I agree waivers are not and were never assured.  You had to justify, and over justify.  I only know of one member that has ever received one.

The current regulation doesn't have a limitation.

[vento]

.....

I don't think CAP is going to lose a lot of membership over this.  But, as previously stated, and made obvious by the posts on this thread, it is a de-motivator.  Don't misread that to mean people will not be motivated, but that people will loose this as a carrot/morale boost.

No, CAP is not going to lose a lot of membership over this. It is only affecting the Senior members who care about PD and that is the minority within CAP anyway. Not sure what will be the effect on the health of the PD program, I am one that will stop right here with my PD and I have very little incentive to help promote the program anymore, after all who wants to be biten twice?

This rev does very little to address the problem we have with higher ranking officers who received their ranks thru special promotions bypassing the PD system.

[LSThiker]

I am one that will stop right here with my PD and I have very little incentive to help promote the program anymore, after all who wants to be biten twice?

Other than having to wait time wise, what in the PD system has changed that you were not already required to get for your next PD level?

[MajorM]

I will be interested to see the impact on RSC attendance.  I've been a Major for 15 years after getting it at age 26 (yes, one of the dreaded Spaatzen).  At first I turned down encouragements to become a Lt Col for the very reason that's been cited... I had no desire to be a sub-30 Lt Col.  Heck, I didn't even want to be a 35 year old Lt Col.  Who's going to take that seriously? (not that grade in CAP is really all that serious to start with).

But lately I've been kicking around the Lt Col thing.  Partly because they made it more difficult... when everyone and their dog can qualify for Lt Col, well I have little interest in that.  And partly because I'm tired of interacting with Lt Cols who can't lead ants to a picnic but will routinely remind you of their grade (to which I routinely remind them that I don't care).

But I still need to do RSC to complete Level IV.  I just haven't been able to get myself to go spend a week learning what I already get ad nauseum in the corporate world.  But I thought, maybe next summer... get that knocked out, apply for Lt Col and call it a day.

But now with NSC on the docket... well, I'll have to decide whether NSC is something I want to do along with RSC.  Another week, more money, and from the stories I've heard, limited educational value (at NSC).  I can't imagine I'm the only longer-term member facing that question.

Don't get me wrong... I think changing the requirements and standards is overdue.  I'm not convinced this is necessarily the solution, but you have to try something.

Though it would mean I don't have to sewn on new grade insignia at least.

[Eclipse]

I am one that will stop right here with my PD and I have very little incentive to help promote the program anymore, after all who wants to be biten twice?

Other than having to wait time wise, what in the PD system has changed that you were not already required to get for your next PD level?

It's not just TIG - they bumped the whole structure up a Level and now require Level V for Lt Col.
Which means that Lt Col now costs about ~$1200 more today then it did on Saturday.

[Storm Chaser]

.....

I don't think CAP is going to lose a lot of membership over this.  But, as previously stated, and made obvious by the posts on this thread, it is a de-motivator.  Don't misread that to mean people will not be motivated, but that people will loose this as a carrot/morale boost.

It is only affecting the Senior members who care about PD and that is the minority within CAP anyway.

I fail to see how this is going to affect "members who care about PD..." Those who care about Professional Development will continue to participate and progress in the PD program. Maybe you meant to say that it will affect those members who care about promotions, as they may not be able to promote as easily with the new requirements.

[Garibaldi]

.....

I don't think CAP is going to lose a lot of membership over this.  But, as previously stated, and made obvious by the posts on this thread, it is a de-motivator.  Don't misread that to mean people will not be motivated, but that people will loose this as a carrot/morale boost.

It is only affecting the Senior members who care about PD and that is the minority within CAP anyway.

I fail to see how this is going to affect "members who care about PD..." Those who care about Professional Development will continue to participate and progress in the PD program. Maybe you meant to say that it will affect those members who care about promotions, as they may not be able to promote as easily with the new requirements.

I give not a scat for my final promotion. As stated, it is out of my reach for several reasons. I will continue to get PD "awards" when I can. Right now, working on Senior level for CP, Tech for ES, and possibly may go for AE one day. The tri-fecta.

[LSThiker]

It's not just TIG - they bumped the whole structure up a Level and now require Level V for Lt Col.
Which means that Lt Col now costs about ~$1200 more today then it did on Saturday.

It cost about that to get Level V before the change. People will stay at major instead of moving to Lt Col.  So what is your point?

[Eclipse]

It's not just TIG - they bumped the whole structure up a Level and now require Level V for Lt Col.
Which means that Lt Col now costs about ~$1200 more today then it did on Saturday.

It cost about that to get Level V before the change. People will stay at major instead of moving to Lt Col.  So what is your point?

The point is that before the change, Level V was the senior equivalent of the Falcon.  "Something more" for those
interested, but not required for a complete CAP career.

In fact the Falcon description is apropos for the old Level V.

"This award is given only to those Cadets  senior members who have achieved the highest accomplishments possible within the Cadet Senior Program and have taken subsequent steps to become a dynamic American and Aerospace CAP leader.."

For the record, I don't have an issue with the levels as posted, only with the lack of proper transition.

[Brit_in_CAP]

If somebody wants to find that magical stash of cash and start paying for all of this, please by all means, let me know.  I have roughly 6-7 members who are immediately advsersely effected by this.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

That's why I committed to being a Captain for life or at least a few more years.  I can't afford that kind of investment in cash, let alone the **additional*  CAP time.

[vento]

.....

I don't think CAP is going to lose a lot of membership over this.  But, as previously stated, and made obvious by the posts on this thread, it is a de-motivator.  Don't misread that to mean people will not be motivated, but that people will loose this as a carrot/morale boost.

It is only affecting the Senior members who care about PD and that is the minority within CAP anyway.

I fail to see how this is going to affect "members who care about PD..." Those who care about Professional Development will continue to participate and progress in the PD program. Maybe you meant to say that it will affect those members who care about promotions, as they may not be able to promote as easily with the new requirements.

I give not a scat for my final promotion. As stated, it is out of my reach for several reasons. I will continue to get PD "awards" when I can. Right now, working on Senior level for CP, Tech for ES, and possibly may go for AE one day. The tri-fecta.

I see point from both of you. In our world PD is intertwined so deeply with promotion that it is not even funny. I very often think if people do PD just for the sake of PD. I do know for sure that when a member asks how s/he can earn a promotion, very often the answer is do PD and some other stuff. In a way you are right, OTOH, for some if there is no future in promotion then what is the point of doing PD? A guy who makes his living as CPA or finance doesn't really need a Senior or Master rating in CAP to prove himself. There are also many really good CAP trainers out there who has no Senior or Master rating in a specialty and is still highly respected by other members.
CAPR35-5 is about promotions and promotions lead members to get interested in PD.

[Eclipse]

Agreed - that's the carrot, and it's much higher up on the string now.

There is no requirement that PD, or any training for that matter, be accomplished to hold >any< staff job,
and in a paradigm of "you're lucky I showed up at all", good luck with implementing that mandate.

Even the CIs and SUIs ask the question, but don't mandate the completion.

Proper completion of the requisite PD make a member a better staffer, no question there, but the only
way people already giving "almost all" to CAP were encouraged to "give the rest" via PD was with the
promise of making them write another check to Vanguard as recognition.

If Major and Lt Col are off the table for some people, then I would imagine the interest in Senior and Master
are going to wane as well.  As I said before "unintended consequences".

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

There is no requirement that PD, or any training for that matter, be accomplished to hold >any< staff job,
and in a paradigm of "you're lucky I showed up at all", good luck with implementing that mandate.

Wing / Region IGs have to take the IG Basic on line, attend a Senior course and then IG College. I think Safety has some similar requirements.

[LSThiker]

The point is that before the change, Level V was the senior equivalent of the Falcon.  "Something more" for those
interested, but not required for a complete CAP career.

In fact the Falcon description is apropos for the old Level V.

And the Falcon was gotten rid a long time ago.  The only thing presented by anyone as to an argument is that they cannot get Lt Col.  Which again, I am just not seeing that as an effective argument.  Sure I agree, the transition could have been handled better.

[LSThiker]

If Major and Lt Col are off the table for some people, then I would imagine the interest in Senior and Master
are going to wane as well.  As I said before "unintended consequences".

In the previous program, Lt Col was off the table.  So the unintended consequences were the same then as it is now, just not able to obtain major.  Instead of stalling at Major, they now stall at Captain. 

[Майор Хаткевич]

Heh.

Guess if I ever re-engage, there's no real rush to get my Senior Rating in Cadet Programs. The push would have been for my requirements for Major, along with knocking out TWO conferences in the next year and a half. With these changes? If I do return to active participation, I doubt I'll be pursuing either Major or the Senior rating, at least any time soon. No point, and no rush now.

[Eclipse]

If Major and Lt Col are off the table for some people, then I would imagine the interest in Senior and Master
are going to wane as well.  As I said before "unintended consequences".

In the previous program, Lt Col was off the table.  So the unintended consequences were the same then as it is now, just not able to obtain major.  Instead of stalling at Major, they now stall at Captain.

How do you figure it was off the table before?