Updated CAPR 35-5 released today (11 Aug 14)

[Eclipse]

One thing that has been asked in the last few days, by active members downstream,
is "If I know I will never be able to get to RSC, why bother with PD at all?"

The term is "unintended consequences".

What was your reply?

They weren't asking me, but frankly, I'd be at a loss.

One of the few carrots Commanders had to spur initiative and staff service has been
negated for a fair number of members, not to mention the bad feeling of having the rules changed
midstream.

Consider this.  Say a Major serving on Wing staff, days from Lt Col, was expecting a same-day click
from the Region CC.  He's ordered his grade, been assured it's a "done deal", and was watching the
clock. 

Now he's told "Sorry, see you next year, assuming you complete NSC..."

The idea is fine, the implementation is flawed, and will engender a lot of negative feeling, unnecessarily
and counter to the purpose intended.

[AirAux]

Unfortunately, some cadet units have failed to utilize the required SDA portion of cadet officer training in their squadrons.  SDA stands for staff duty analysis and requires a cadet to spend time shadowing and working with senior members in their staff duty positions.  After doing so for a sufficient amount of time, could be six weeks, could be twelve weeks, they have to write an analysis describing what reg's, manuals, publications, are needed for that staff duty position, what they observed, what they did, and what the position requires.  So now you have a cadet with probably three years leadership training and responsibility, basically running the cadet program, that has displayed the required level of maturity, and has studied and prepared a graded paper on most of the squadron staff officer positions, and you say they are not prepared?  The Spaatz cadets I have met and worked with have outshone most senior members in responsibility and CAP knowledge under the grade of Captain.  JMHO and Spaatz Moms everywhere.   

[RiverAux]

Just see how many people get to Major through the public affairs track now.  Not only do they have to take a week for the Region Staff College, they also have to do 5 in-residence ES courses (PIO stuff) to get to the Master level in the PAO track. 

You know, I think enough people believed that old canard about everyone in CAP being a Lt. Col. that they thought they better do something about it. 

The thing is that CAP has never exactly been overwhelmed with people that were hard-charging up the PD tracks.  Now, most people are even going to be less likely to seriously start down the path at all. 

Does it serve CAP better to have a few people that have obtained a high level of training and have been rewarded with high rank or to have many more CAP members get a mid-level amount of training?  The way it is going very few members are going to have any incentive or interest to go beyond the lowest level (Technician) in their specialty. 

[Eclipse]

So now you have a cadet with probably three years leadership training and responsibility, basically running the cadet program, that has displayed the required level of maturity, and has studied and prepared a graded paper on most of the squadron staff officer positions, and you say they are not prepared?

"Basically running the cadet program?"

Where do you get that?  Writing 5 framed / structured papers, walking through some very specific tasks, and being penned into  two a/staff positions does not equal "basically running the cadet program".  It equals checking the boxes as indicated. You're also being somewhat
"generous" in the tie you think most cadets are serving the apprenticeships.  52-14 says "should be 4-6 weeks", "should" being the key.
A "4-week apprenticeship" for some duty positions equals one discussion with the staff officer who only has something to do once a month,
and few cadets are ever exceeded 6 weeks unless the position happens to interest them separate from the apprenticeship.

Yes, this puts them ahead of their peers, but not necessarily adult members who are >not< their peers.

There's also the issue that most Spaatz-agish cadets are in late high school / college, and some of the most
distracted members we have.  For every candidate that is still home serving as C/CC or other meaningful staff, there
a 5 off on NCSAs, encampments, or non=CAP activities like college and treating the CP like a correspondence school, showing up
when required, and doing a lot over the phone.

Again, Spaatz cadets are the top tier, no way around it, most will run rings around adult members regarding
the minutia of D&C, promotion eligibility, and shining shoes, that doesn't make them capable of leading adult volunteers,
nor, frankly, is their >any< requirement that they have ever lead "anyone" in any meaningful manner.

There are far too many who are 1-hit encampment wonders, venturing out of the unit only to get that ticket punched,
and otherwise just going about at weekly meetings quietly and checking boxes until they have three diamonds.

[EMT-83]

There's a guy in my squadron who just got smacked down for the second time.

First time around, he was working on the Flight Operations specialty track. He completed his Technician rating and was working on Senior. Sorry,  no more Flight Operations, start over with something else. So, he starts over.

He lost a couple of years with the restart, and now needs RSC to be promoted. Another happy member, another Captain For Life. I don't see him having any more interest in PD. Why should he?

[Robert Hartigan]

Now, it is difficult to stay positive about this topic since cronyism is a perception if not still a real problem within the walls of the Emerald City and behind the curtain in the Wizard's chambers. But, it will be obvious who the 'Good Ole Boys' of CAP are because their network will work GOBN, Level IV, Majors into Wing CC, Region Vice Commander, and other Colonel slots. So, the dead give away will be the Level IV Colonel! Maybe that is a good thing?

If the intent of the recent change is to put weight and gravitas into the PD program, I would be all for a provision that if you only have Level IV and you are at end of Full Colonel assignment you have 12 months to complete Level V or you revert to your permanent Major grade.

Furthermore, I believe there should be a provision for continuing education for everyone: don't hold the CURRENT PD requirement for your grade?  You have 12 months to achieve the missing requirement(s) to keep your grade or revert to commensurate grade.

[Eclipse]

If the intent of the recent change is to put weight and gravitas into the PD program, I would be all for a provision that if you only have Level IV and you are at end of Full Colonel assignment you have 12 months to complete Level V or you revert to your permanent Major grade.

The issue here is that unless they increase the slots or frequency of NSC, there's a self-limiting factor that is
out of the control of the member.

Based on the last few rounds of NSC, most wings won't be able to produce more then one or two Lt Cols
(on average) a year.

[jbekker]

I am actually in the that position. I am two months from my Lt. Col. Everything done all I'm waiting for is TIG. I have held multiple wing/region positions and have been in CAP for 15 years. It is very frustrating being told that instead of waiting two more month now I have to attend NSC to be promotion. It took me two years to save up to go to IG school, so it will take another few years for NSC. If CAP wanted to get rid of members this was a great way to do it.

[LSThiker]

So now you have a cadet with probably three years leadership training and responsibility, basically running the cadet program, that has displayed the required level of maturity, and has studied and prepared a graded paper on most of the squadron staff officer positions, and you say they are not prepared?  The Spaatz cadets I have met and worked with have outshone most senior members in responsibility and CAP knowledge under the grade of Captain. 

I would not say all Spaatz cadets are prepared.  As with any position, they come in all walks of life.  Some are terrible leaders that only achieved the Spaatz Award because they could test well.  Some are great and knowledgable staff personnel but have no ounce of leadership ability.  Some are great leaders with no ounce of staff concepts.  Some are both great leaders and great staff personnel.

To outshine senior members that are below the rank of captain is not really that difficult.  For one, a large number of those senior members are relatively new and you are comparing them to a person that has been in the program for at least 3 years.  Two, senior members at the start generally worry about learning their field before learning all the nuances of the program.  Realistically, you are comparing apples to oranges. 

While most Spaatz cadets are driven and motivated, it does not tell me what kind of street/real knowledge or leadership potential they have.  After all, some Spaatz cadets have never lead anything larger than their 8 cadet sized squadron while others have lead squadrons that have 50+ cadets to some that actually serve on wing staff. 

The way it is going very few members are going to have any incentive or interest to go beyond the lowest level (Technician) in their specialty. 

Which is not necessarily a problem.  I have met people that only had BS degrees and were more knowledgeable than people holding a PhD in the same field.  I have met nurses that knew more about medicine than some doctors.  I have met some police officers that had better understanding of the law than a criminal lawyer.  I have met freelance photographers that understood photography better than their professors. 

[Eclipse]

I am actually in the that position. I am two months from my Lt. Col. Everything done all I'm waiting for is TIG. I have held multiple wing/region positions and have been in CAP for 15 years. It is very frustrating being told that instead of waiting two more month now I have to attend NSC to be promotion. It took me two years to save up to go to IG school, so it will take another few years for NCS. If CAP wanted to get rid of members this was a great way to do it.

This is exactly why the grandfather should cover both the PD and TIG, for at least the minimum clock time since the
last promotion under the old system.

There are people reading this who may well have either skated by a day, or missed it by a day - wholly unfair when the
new requirement is self-limited and costs somewhere in the neighborhood of $1200.  Not to mention those who
were fully qualified under the old system and simply didn't submit because they were otherwise busy, perhaps, with
you know, summer activities.  Those members should not be punished by an arbitrary date, or because they, or their CC's
were busy.

[lordmonar]

Why not just chuck all the standards out and promote everyone to Maj Gen?

Yes......it sucks.....life ain't fair......move on.

[Panache]

I am actually in the that position. I am two months from my Lt. Col. Everything done all I'm waiting for is TIG. I have held multiple wing/region positions and have been in CAP for 15 years. It is very frustrating being told that instead of waiting two more month now I have to attend NSC to be promotion. It took me two years to save up to go to IG school, so it will take another few years for NCS. If CAP wanted to get rid of members this was a great way to do it.

This is exactly why the grandfather should cover both the PD and TIG, for at least the minimum clock time since the
last promotion under the old system.

Well, the members in the CSAG are already Lt Colonels and Colonels.  They have nothing to loose.

[vento]

The way this reg revision is implemented is really punishing the friendly and helping the foe of PD. People who had faith and worked the PD program get hosed while people who didn't care about PD are laughing their bellies off. People who supported PD now will probably look the other way (I do). Maybe it is the right direction but the grandfather clauses simply don't work. Come on, even uniforms have a phase out period. I wonder if people in this forum who are going to Vegas can relay some of the sentiments to the policy makers. They really need some reality check.

[Eclipse]

Why not just chuck all the standards out and promote everyone to Maj Gen?

Yes......it sucks.....life ain't fair......move on.

Or how about MSgt?

The response "Life ain't fair" doesn't work in situations where the the organization is
dependent on the benevolence of those it just told to "go salute themselves".

There are ways to implement change that don't punish the very people you need to make those changes.

[lordmonar]

Then you can't ever criticize any CAP member again for not following regs

We are dependent on their good will

[NC Hokie]

Why not just chuck all the standards out and promote everyone to Maj Gen?

Yes......it sucks.....life ain't fair......move on.

That's hyperbole, right?

Nobody is saying chuck all the standards, and I don't think anyone here really thinks that the new standards are bad.  We just dislike the abruptness with which they are being implemented.

A few hours ago, I had to tell a 2d Lt on the cusp of promoting that she now has to attend SLS in November before she can polish her butter bars.  You can probably guess how well that conversation went.  Would it have hurt CAP to put a future phase in date on the new requirements to avoid situations like that?  Probably not, but it is DEFINITELY going to hurt CAP if members get discouraged and quit over this.

[Panache]

I wonder if people in this forum who are going to Vegas can relay some of the sentiments to the policy makers. They really need some reality check.

I suspect you would be wasting your breath. 

[lordmonar]

Someone is going to get screwed. We screw people in the pipeline now or we screw everyone who follows.

Like I said before. Life  ain't  fair.  Press on.

[jbekker]

Someone is going to get screwed. We screw people in the pipeline now or we screw everyone who follows.

Like I said before. Life  ain't  fair.  Press on.

The problem with this line of thinking is that CAP is a volunteer organization. You "screw" to many people and you lose all your members.

I do not have a problem with the new requirements, in fact I support it. What I have a problem with is your type of thinking. It is similar to nationals. Who cares about those who have worked countless hours and years building and supporting the program. When making these types of changs they should consider those who have worked hard in this program, and not "screw" them, as you put it. Unfortunately, it is people with your line of thinking that are making these types of decision.

[andysum15]

I am hearing all sorts of excellent views on this topic and I for one am not happy in one area and that is the movement of the goal posts. I am a major with more than enough time in grade for Lt Col however due to cost I am not able to go to RSC or National but have completed all the other tasks. I hold a Region position, 3 Wing positions and a number of Squadron positions. I think the grade should reflect what you do for CAP rather than just course work. If you are content to function at squadron level only then you shouldn't advance past Captain, Major and Lt Col should be for Wing and Group level. Col/B Gen Region and National Commander Maj Gen.
The British Air Training Corps has a system where rank matters. Highest level at squadron is Flight Lieutenant (Capt), the Wing Commander holds the rank of Wing Commander (Lt Col). He has a certain number of Squadron Leaders (Major) who are responsible for a number of squadrons and there are some Flight Lieutenants also with various duties. Of course for certain duties they do get paid (Max of 28 days a year) which more than helps with the courses which are free.
In a nut shell as much as I am disappointed not to be able to advance further (unless I win the lottery) I think a better system would be to have the rank/grade for the position/duties you hold. What level you have completed can be shown by a ribbon or badge. Just a thought.