CAP NCO's

[PaulR]

Thank you!   

[SoCalMarine]

If you sign the form 2 and put it in the folder without sending it to NHQ, the member will never get promoted.

My understanding was that there was some button-clicking action by the CC in eServices that takes care of this.

Eclipse is incorrect. The ranks of O-2 and O-1 are approved by the squadron commander, and O-3 and O-4 is approved by group commander by using the eServices Duty Promotion system. There's no need to fill out the forms, or send them to NHQ.

Us Personnel Officers just go into eServices, on the right side click Membership and then click Promotions. Enter your member ID and we are shown all your info. At the bottom it shows the requirements for promotion and next to each there's either a green check mark, or a red "x." If all are green I can click submit member for promotion and an approval goes to the appropriate person.

Many squadrons are no longer using F2s for duty promotions, duty position changes and so on. No need. Its all listed in eServices now.

[SoCalMarine]

Anyway, the one issue I've seen is that CAP does't recognize an NCO that was an E-4. When I asked about the program recently, I got an email from Ms Parker stating that NCOs would be excepted from E-5 and above. That's completely arbitrary and makes no sense.

I wouldn't mind forgoing my officer rank and going back to stripes. Even though some have said people only do it to be different I disagree. Some might, but I earned my stripes. I felt funny putting on officer ranks both in CAP and the CGAUX. Granted, to be an officer in both organizations requires nothing near what it does in the military, but its still an officer rank nonetheless. I am proud of my stripes. I would make the change except for the money already invested in my current rank, and having officer uniforms.

[Flying Pig]

Anyway, the one issue I've seen is that CAP does't recognize an NCO that was an E-4. When I asked about the program recently, I got an email from Ms Parker stating that NCOs would be excepted from E-5 and above. That's completely arbitrary and makes no sense.

I wouldn't mind forgoing my officer rank and going back to stripes. Even though some have said people only do it to be different I disagree. Some might, but I earned my stripes. I felt funny putting on officer ranks both in CAP and the CGAUX. Granted, to be an officer in both organizations requires nothing near what it does in the military, but its still an officer rank nonetheless. I am proud of my stripes. I would make the change except for the money already invested in my current rank, and having officer uniforms.

As you should be, but let me ask, are you proud of your Marine Corporal stripes or your Civil Air Patrol Senior Airman stripes?  Having been a Marine Sgt myself, no offense to anyone....I could care less about CAP stripes.  Notice I didnt say AF stripes.  Walking around in your CAP uniform with your CAP stripes isnt the same thing as walking around with your Marine Cpl Stripes as Im sure your aware.  The reasoning makes total sense because in the Air Force (which CAP is an auxiliary of) you are not an NCO until you hit SSgt/E5.   I have a friend of mine who was a Cpl/E4 in the Marines and moved over to the Air Guard.  Now he's sporting his nice new, non-NCO SrAmn stripes.
Considering the AF signs off on everything uniform related that CAP does, I would venture to guess that the Air Force decided that you needed to be an E5, not because CAP doesnt respect other branches.
As far as the officer ranks, this has been discussed MANY times.  Again, people are taking common symbols and attaching a meaning to them that doesnt apply.  Prior military people seem to have the hardest time with this. You are a Civil Air Patrol officer.  Not an Air Force or CG officer.  No more than my Sheriff's Lieutenant at work is a butter bar in the military. People don't walk around calling him a new guy.  The Sheriff wears 4 stars on her collar.  I dont think she walks around thinking shes a General.  Exact same concept in CAP.  All we did was adopt military symbols for our own purposes.  Just like Law Enforcement, just like Fire Departments, etc.

So the first step in your transition to CAP is to completely remove any correlation you have to thinking you are  acting like a wannabe being a military officer.

[JC004]

...
No more than my Sheriff's Lieutenant at work is a butter bar in the military. People don't walk around calling him a new guy.  The Sheriff wears 4 stars on her collar.  I dont think she walks around thinking shes a General.
...

Interestingly, I'm finding it weird to go back to the stripes thing with the sheriff's department... Just sort of got used to shiny things and my immediate supervisors having shiny things rather than stripes.

[SoCalMarine]

As you should be, but let me ask, are you proud of your Marine Corporal stripes or your Civil Air Patrol Senior Airman stripes?  Having been a Marine Sgt myself, no offense to anyone....I could care less about CAP stripes.  Notice I didnt say AF stripes.  Walking around in your CAP uniform with your CAP stripes isnt the same thing as walking around with your Marine Cpl Stripes as Im sure your aware.

To just correct one thing first, I wasn't just a corporal. I was only pointing out that an E-4 isn't accepted as an NCO.

I also find it odd that CAP would say no to another branch's E-4 which IS an NCO when the manual simply states NCO and not a particular pay grade. It doesn't state it has to be an AF NCO. Also, according to the KB answer "CAP NCO rank from prior military service" (Link) updated on March 16, 2011... a person is asking what he would wear because he left the Army as an E-4. CAP answered he'd wear the current USAF E-4 equivalent of SrA.

So, there seems to be a disconnect between what the manual says, what the KB people are saying and what Ms Parker is saying up at National. I may have to email this comment back to her in reply to her email to me stating only E-5.


Anyway, back to your question. Yes, I realize there is a difference. The thing is that while CAP enlisted ranks are not the same thing, they are this organization's equivalent. However, for me personally, maintaining stripes regardless of the organization is important if given the option. Just like any other organization or company that would give me a position based on my education and military time and rank. Its hard to put into words, but CAP's equivalent for my Marine Corps rank is available and I should have taken it. We all know that the enlisted culture is entirely different than that of the officer side. If more members were to take their enlisted equivalent with CAP I think you'd have one heck of a training cadre available. Just my opinion.

[davidsinn]

If more members were to take their enlisted equivalent with CAP I think you'd have one heck of a training cadre available. Just my opinion.

Every time NCOs come up it comes down to this: What's stopping them from doing it with officer rank?


At the last SAREX we had, not one but two full bird colonels taking out the trash while I, a mere captain made sure the aircraft were ready to return to home base while a 1st Lt prepared their departure releases, rank doesn't mean a whole lot when there is a job to do.

[lordmonar]

There is a disconnect between reality and CAP NCO program.

There is no program.

There is nothing for the NCO's to do.
There is no way that a CAP NCO can progress.
There is no program for them to be a training cadre in.

I know this thread is long.....and several of us (I am a retired MSgt) have suggested ways a CAP NCO program could be used.
But in the end it is just a solution looking for a problem.

Right now....CAP NCO's are simply another clique in CAP that just muddle the already muddled CAP rank system.

[lordmonar]

To Re-hash the old thread about my suggestion.

1) CAP enlisted (not just NCOs) would be open to everyone, not just former military personnel.
2) CAP enlisted corps would be the USAF uniform, drill and customs and courtisies (german national socialists circa 1931-1945 :) does that avoid Godwin's Law?)
3) They would progress up CAP PD level just like officers.
4) They would wear their enlisted stripes only while assigned to the enlisted specality track and only when assigned to the enlisted duty assignements.
5) They will be forbidden to hold ANY.....ANY other leadership position that would place them above officers...except in their duties as military training.
6) They would revert to officer ranks if they leave their enlisted duty assignment.
7) E-9 would be restricted to just one individual per wing/region/NHQ.
8) They would be the military training cadre for cadet, senior and composite squadrons.

Bacically....
Level I+3months= Amn
A1C+Technicain in enlisted specialty track+6months=A1C
Level II (tecnicain rateing in enlisted specialty track)+9 month=SrA
Level III (must have senior rateing in enlisted specialty track)+18 months=SSgt
Level IV (must have master rateing in enlisted specialty track)+3 years=Tsgt
Level V (must have master rateing in enlisted specialty track) +4 years=MSgt
SMSgt Appointment to group SNO position (limit 1 per group) or wing SMSgt position
    (limited to 3% of the size of the wing). (i.e. 100 members in the wing...only 3 SMSgts (to include any SMSgt assigned to groups)
CMSgt Appointed as wing or region command cheif. (i.e. one per wing/region)
CAP Command Chief.....one.  Allowed to have a staff of upto 8 addtional CMSgts/SMSgts.
Squadrons allowed to appoint one first sergeant.

The only thing left to do is to develope the enllisted specialty track...which would be heavey on dril and ceremonies,
customes and coutsies, uniform wear, instructor development, and general leadership skills.

Former military personnel would be able to jump rank (just as officers do) but SMSgt and CMSgt would be limited to MSgt
(just as generals and Cols are limited to Lt Col).
Former military personnel who wish to progress higher in enlisted rank would have to completed all the requirments...with only TIG being waived.
No one can be appointed to SMSgt or CMSgt without being Level V......unless they held that rank as while in the military and
they would have one year/level to chatch up or they will be removed from the position.

If no enlisted personnel is eligible to hold the postion then it can be filled by a lower ranking position but he/she cannot be awarded the
rank nor hold the title "command chief" he would be refered to as the senior enlisted advisor.

Okay...

I think that basically covers all the bases.

It gives the NCO's a job....(military training)
It gives them a progression system.
It builds in a check to the ego monsters and title climbers.
It is a temporary rank....that is if you no longer want to be a military training expert then you will take off the stripes and become the appropriate officer based on your PD level, TIG and TIS.

[SoCalMarine]

To Re-hash the old thread about my suggestion.

100% in agreement man! Write it up, send it up and lets get it done. Just ignore the naysayers who'll say it'll never work and never try. They are just people who are evidence of self-fulfilling prophesies.

[davidsinn]

5) They will be forbidden to hold ANY.....ANY other leadership position that would place them above officers...except in their duties as military training.

You have a lot of good ideas but the whole thing falls apart right here.

This would restrict enlisted from having any position in ES higher than GT, FLM, MSA, or MRO unless your entire team consists of enlisted or cadets.

[CAP4117]

Lordmonar, I really like that idea! I think it could work really well - sometimes I think I would be more comfortable as an NCO than as an officer, if that program existed and was run properly, and I'm sure there are other SMs who feel the same way.

[BGNightfall]

I have a few supplementary questions about your NCO PD program.

Would your NCOs be permitted to attain ratings in other specialty tracks?  CP and AE spring to mind, but just about any job that could be filled by a current SMWOG or 2nd Lt could also be filled by a CAP enlisted, which really means any squadron level staff position short of CD(C or S) or maybe PD.  As such, it seems that any CAP enlisted would also have the opportunity to attain tech rating in just about any specialty track (Chaplaincy, PD, OE and IG aside).

In the end, I can agree that CAP NCOs don't really jive in a primarily civilian organization.  The split-leadership dynamic that works well in the military to divide responsibilities between command and personnel management would really just muddy the waters for civilians who would rather see an unambiguous chain of authority starting with them

[lordmonar]

5) They will be forbidden to hold ANY.....ANY other leadership position that would place them above officers...except in their duties as military training.

You have a lot of good ideas but the whole thing falls apart right here.

This would restrict enlisted from having any position in ES higher than GT, FLM, MSA, or MRO unless your entire team consists of enlisted or cadets.

Yep.  They could be MO and MS as well.

[lordmonar]

I have a few supplementary questions about your NCO PD program.

Would your NCOs be permitted to attain ratings in other specialty tracks?  CP and AE spring to mind, but just about any job that could be filled by a current SMWOG or 2nd Lt could also be filled by a CAP enlisted, which really means any squadron level staff position short of CD(C or S) or maybe PD.  As such, it seems that any CAP enlisted would also have the opportunity to attain tech rating in just about any specialty track (Chaplaincy, PD, OE and IG aside).

In the end, I can agree that CAP NCOs don't really jive in a primarily civilian organization.  The split-leadership dynamic that works well in the military to divide responsibilities between command and personnel management would really just muddy the waters for civilians who would rather see an unambiguous chain of authority starting with them

with the stipulation that they could not hold down the primary duty position....i.e they could not be wing director of CP...but could be an assitant.  They could hold down most of the squadron jobs.....but not any of the "deputy commander" jobs.  A CAP NCO who was also the "logistics officer" would simply be the Logicistics NCO.

So long as the CAP NCO was primarily in the Enlisted Specalty Track and assigned to one of the Enlisted Jobs (call them First Sergeant, Military Training NCO, and Assitant Military Training) then I see why they could not also be personnel, logistics, adminstration, etc.

I don't think they could be Chaplain...as that is a whole other ball of wax right there.....but for the most part there is no other job that they could not be work towards.  So long as they are not in "authority" over officers.

[arajca]

A comments/questions/ponderables:

2) Would be the "USAF uniform, drill and customs and courtisies" what? Keep in mind most non-military people have a Hollywierd interpretation of what "military" means. Do you REALLY want those folks being the "experts"?
4) Is "enlisted" a separate specialty track or are certain specialty tracks designated as "enlisted" and others as "officer"?
5) What if no one wants to be an officer in a unit? Or if the only officer cannot be the unit commander due to time limitations?
6) So, enlisted is a reverse brevet. Instead of being a promotion, it's a demotion. Or is being an officer a demotion?
7) Clarify - only one E-9 per wing or higher HQ, correct? Would they have a set term?

Would units be required to have ncos? What if no one in a unit wants to be an nco?

Since nco stripes are sewn on the sleeve, who pays for the replacement uniforms when they are done? Or kicked up/down to become officers?

[lordmonar]

They enlisted corps would be the gurus of dress and apperance, the would be the drill tsar, and saluting police.....be use those fun terms.

They would become experts as they progressed up the specialty track....just like cadets start small and move up.

The "enlisted specialty track" would be just like the any other specialty track.....a course of study, duty performance and examinations.

No need to have the positions....no need for anyone to be in the positions.  Much the same way if you don't have a logistics officer, or admin officer.  Not a good way of doing buisness......but it is not a show stopper.

A squadron full of training NCOs...with no one to train would be intresting....I don't foresee such a situation really happeing.  What you you do if you had a squadron full of people who wanted to be pilots and nothing else?

Yes.....the enlisted rank would be temporary.....as long as you are holding down the job you keep your stripes.  Loose the job....loose the stripes.  As officer rank does not really mean anything in the military way of thinking......it is six of one and half dozen of the other whether it is a demotion or a promotion when you leave the enlisted corps.

Only one E-9 per wing......I would accept a term limit similar to what we have as wing commander.

As for who pays for the uniform replacement........who replaces them now?  It would be a lot more expensive anyways as enlisted wear a different service coat then officers do.  If you don't want to pay for new uniforms.....don't quit or get fired.

[SoCalMarine]

Lordmonar is spot on here.

Yet rather than fire questions back and forth maybe I can make it a bit simpler. CAP NCOs and officers would work the same way that they would in the military. NCOs have a purpose in the military, and officers do as well. NCOs would be the trainers, teachers, drill instructors and general hands-on personnel. Officers would be the policy wonks, the paper pushers, the people who take responsibility for the squadron with regards to actions, appearance and legal.

Not that hard really. All we have to do is take care of some small issues which Lordmonar has already done with saying an NCO in ES would just be the assistant; however, its not unheard of in the military to have a person filling a billet that normally would go to a much higher rank. I've seen corporals in SNCO billets and some SNCOs in officer billets.

Take for instance the JIC for Deepwater Horizon. The USCG PIO was a PO1 and the assistant PIO was a LCDR. Why? Because the PO1 had considerably more experience, and she was able to direct the commander as to what to do. Officers aren't so stuck on themselves that they don't recognize how to follow someone with more knowledge... generally speaking.

[BGNightfall]

While this is one of the more realistic implementations for a CAP "enlisted" program, it still looks like a solution looking for a problem.  Would there be benefits to the organization?  Yes.  Would those benefits offset the implementation costs?  Maybe. 

I still find myself confronted with the big question of "Why do we need more CAP NCOs?"  Or, more appropriately, why do we need to re-adopt what amounts to a military class system within our organization?  In an organization where officers and enlisted would be equally technically adept at a given task, and all other things being equal, why would anybody choose to start out in a position of inferiority while simultaneously having to adhere to even more strict standards of appearance and conduct?  On the squadron level, this would still leave the most senior MSgt in the squadron subordinate to the newest 18 year-old Flight Officer in every aspect except military drill, which that Flight Officer is in no way required to submit to. 

SoCalMarine pointed out an example of an officer allowing the NCO with superior proficiency to take the lead, and while that is admirable, the reality of the military system is that he was under no obligation to do so.  In most cases, within the military system that PO1 would have been fully equipped to handle every aspect of the Public Information office, and the management of the manpower involved, while leaving the over-all accountability for the PIO mission to the Officer In Charge. 

I can very much appreciate pride in military service, past or present, and the desire to represent this in all of life's aspects.  That is exactly what the current CAP NCO grades allow for.  In fact, under the current system a CAP NCO is the same as any other CAP senior member with the exception of the uniform worn (with the exception of corporate officers, obviously).

[lordmonar]

Oh...I completely agree.

CAP has done just fine for the last 30 years with out a real enlisted corps.

I just came up with this plan as a part of a thought exercise when the pervious CAP "Command Chief" was trying to drum up an NCO corps.

So....this is only a "if you absolutely have to have an NCO corps......this is how I would do it."