CAP grades

[Major_Chuck]

I agree with a lot of what Trung Si Ma put forth.  I too don't look at returning to an NCO status a bad thing.  I wasn't aware of NHQ disapproving it though.  I don't recall seeing it any of our regulations. 

Where I would have a problem is if I was already a military E9 and was looking at joining.  Why would I want to give up a stripe that took me 20 plus years to earn.  You also have to look at Wing size as well.  Larger wings ( both membership wise and geographically) could probably support more than one CMSgt billet.

I would much rather wear my real military enlisted rank equivilent then my 'major' grade that CAP says I am.

[Trung Si Ma]

"I too don't look at returning to an NCO status a bad thing.  I wasn't aware of NHQ disapproving it though.  I don't recall seeing it any of our regulations."

Call NHQ and tell them that you want to be a SMSgt instead of a Major and listen to the silence.  BTDT

"Where I would have a problem is if I was already a military E9 and was looking at joining.  Why would I want to give up a stripe that took me 20 plus years to earn."

Same - Same for O-6 and above.  Personally, no problem with CSM conversion to CMSgt.

"You also have to look at Wing size as well.  Larger wings ( both membership wise and geographically) could probably support more than one CMSgt billet."

I think the AF now has Command CMSgt's now days (CSM equivilant) and I could see that as one per wing / region.  I just thought that if "they" could protect O-6's, I could protect CSM's.  Either way, I'm flexible.

"I would much rather wear my real military enlisted rank equivilent then my 'major' grade that CAP says I am."

Amen brother, Amen.

[Hawk200]

True, but just about all the services know what a Warrant Officer is. Ditch the name "Flight Officer" and use Warrant Officer. Even a significant number of non-military people understand the basics of what a warrant officer is. I would not, however, call all wo's above WO1, Chief Warrant Officer. Tie the name to the level and you'd have WO, Technical WO, Senior WO, Master WO, Chief WO.

Technical Warrant? Senior Warrant? No, that would literally be bastardizing an existing military grade scale.  If you're going to use a military grade system, then you use as the military does. You don't retitle it to your own means. Warrant officers in the military usually rate more respect than company and some field grade officers. The pilots, not so much. But that is another subject altogether.

Why not let CAP members who complete the training and are active be CAP NCO's? Why should someone who has little or no knowledge of CAP or direct transfer skills come in and outrank most of the membership? The military is not the only source for supervisory skill training. I would argue that a police sergeant or fire lieutenant would easily be qualified to fill an NCO position.

Why should someone transferring from the Army to the Air Force get to keep their grade? That's a far more pertinant question than an NCO transferring into CAP. A lot of NCO's I've known in the military have had far more leadership experience than most non-prior service CAP officers. We should be looking up to any military NCO's for the experience they provide, not down on them because they didn't start in our little country club.

As far as a police sergeant or fire lieutenant, I doubt they've had leadership training in the same manner as the military. The only leadership course I ever took in the AF was more focused on leading a whole person, not just the person I saw from 7 to 5. I don't think most police or fire departments are trained in that manner. Even if they did, I still think it would be different enough that it wouldn't be the same as a military NCO.

[DNall]

In my perfect CAP World senior officers would hold one of 4 flight officer grades.  Officer grades would only be used for those holding staff and command billets.

Ah, but then on paper everyone would hold a staff job and be an officer Chuck...

As an example:

My perfect CAP world would require that Personnel Officers have completed the specialty track.  (Oh my, that means that Professional Development for advancement might actually mean something...).  If you don't hold the specialty rating then you cannot be the Lieutenant running Personnel.  You might be the Flight Officer running personnel.

Once a person stepped out of staff or command role then they would wear one of the four or five flight officer grades.

My goal:  To deflate the disproportionate CAP officer grades.  Why reward someone with the grade of Major if they never participate or hold an active leadership position.

Due respect, but this doesn't work at all. The specialty tracks aren't professional devlopment. They actually suck right now, but even if they were fixed they'd just train you in a specialty. That doesn't do anything to make leaders or managers. If you make the officer grade position dependent, then you haven't done anything to instil the necessary leadership/mgmt training in the people that assume those jobs, and you've taken away the motivation to do the PMEs cause all you get is a meaningless FO grade.

The officer progression I posted above is pretty good. That's a whole lot of people's ideas & quite a bit of work to get there. It very much does deflate the officer grades to legitimate levels. It'll take a little time with the transition, but it works qquite well.


Happy to see discussion on the NCO progression. Here's how I'd run it.

- 6 mos & a new from scratch Lvl I gets you Amn
- Tech rating & a year gets you A1C
- Two more years & ALS gets you SrA
- 3 years & Lvl III (enhanced CLC, plus conferences, & senior rating) gets you SSgt
- 4 years & Lvl IV (NCOA subs for RSC) gets you TSgt
- 5 years & lvl V (SNCOA subs for NSC) gets you MSgt

AFIADL enlisted PMEs:
ALS: Crs 1 http://www.maxwell.af.mil/au/afiadl/curriculum/catalog/html/alspgm01.htm
NCOA: Crs 9 http://www.maxwell.af.mil/au/afiadl/curriculum/catalog/html/ncoacc01.htm
SNCOA Crs 12/14: http://www.maxwell.af.mil/au/afiadl/curriculum/catalog/html/course12.htm

You can run CAP specific in-res versions, and also work with states to allow members to audit in-res versions from the ANG/ARNG.

Now if you can give me a good way to add a merit element to the promotion system, I'd like to see that also. Maybe something that reduces the TIG a bit for superb candidates.

The SMSgt & CMSgt grades would be reserved for prior-service. Temp grade of E-7 to E-9 1Sgt for the elected 1Sgt Pgm. (E-7/1Sgt at Sq/Gp, E-8/1Sgt at Wg, E-9/1Sgt at Reg/Nat, one CCSMgt chairs National 1Sgt's council).

[DrJbdm]

"As far as a police sergeant or fire lieutenant, I doubt they've had leadership training in the same manner as the military. The only leadership course I ever took in the AF was more focused on leading a whole person, not just the person I saw from 7 to 5. I don't think most police or fire departments are trained in that manner. Even if they did, I still think it would be different enough that it wouldn't be the same as a military NCO."
[/quote]


   Hawk 200, I disagree with you. It's very hard for someone who has not served for a few years as a Police Officer or a Fire Fighter to know what training these people have. Police Command staff, both Sgt and LT, Capt and so forth all have very good management courses that The Texas Commission on Law Enforcement requires. Further more there are several graduate leadership and management courses that many Police Supervisors take, including the FBI National Academy. But besides the courses, Police Supervisors have lots of experience leading our troops, designing training programs, managing operations, taking charge of incidents and in fact most police supervisors are fully trained in the ICS system.  So, unless you have been a Police Officer for a few years at a decent sized or accredited agency don't try and guess at the level of training or management/leadership skills these people have. I've been a Police Officer for almost 10 years, I have lead as a Incident commander on minor/major incidents at various times thru my carrear.

  A Police Officer from any decent agency would be a perfect fit for an NCO position as they have more then enough leadership and command presence to get the job done. I think you GREATLY underestimate the training Law Enforcement Officers have. Our basic Academy alone has been evaluated for up to 39hrs of College Credit thru several Colleges and Universities. Police Officers are not just given a week or two of school, given a badge and sent out to the field to write tickets. Even a basic Police Officer must demonstrate leadership skills and problem solving skills to function.  In fact I think CAP should heavily recruit Police Officers, we are a perfect fit for CAP as are prior service members. We already know how to wear a uniform in a manner thats going to be sharp, we already know how to lead people or give presentations, we are already very well training in reading people and developing a game plan for an incident. Plus we have already proved we are capable of learning and comprehending what we study. If you want great members for your squadron, recruit heavily at decent police departments, you might be surprised by the caliber of person you get.

[Hawk200]

   Hawk 200, I disagree with you. It's very hard for someone who has not served for a few years as a Police Officer or a Fire Fighter to know what training these people have. Police Command staff, both Sgt and LT, Capt and so forth all have very good management courses that The Texas Commission on Law Enforcement requires. Further more there are several graduate leadership and management courses that many Police Supervisors take, including the FBI National Academy. But besides the courses, Police Supervisors have lots of experience leading our troops, designing training programs, managing operations, taking charge of incidents and in fact most police supervisors are fully trained in the ICS system.  So, unless you have been a Police Officer for a few years at a decent sized or accredited agency don't try and guess at the level of training or management/leadership skills these people have. I've been a Police Officer for almost 10 years, I have lead as a Incident commander on minor/major incidents at various times thru my carrear.

  A Police Officer from any decent agency would be a perfect fit for an NCO position as they have more then enough leadership and command presence to get the job done. I think you GREATLY underestimate the training Law Enforcement Officers have. Our basic Academy alone has been evaluated for up to 39hrs of College Credit thru several Colleges and Universities. Police Officers are not just given a week or two of school, given a badge and sent out to the field to write tickets. Even a basic Police Officer must demonstrate leadership skills and problem solving skills to function.  In fact I think CAP should heavily recruit Police Officers, we are a perfect fit for CAP as are prior service members. We already know how to wear a uniform in a manner thats going to be sharp, we already know how to lead people or give presentations, we are already very well training in reading people and developing a game plan for an incident. Plus we have already proved we are capable of learning and comprehending what we study. If you want great members for your squadron, recruit heavily at decent police departments, you might be surprised by the caliber of person you get.

DrJbdm, I think I am probably far more familiar with law enforcement and the legal system than you are aware. Haven't been a cop myself yet, but my father has been one for 33 years, I've had over a dozen friends that are/were cops, worked at a law enforcement training facility for about 16 months. Plus strangely enough, half the people I meet for some reason think I'm a cop. (Still haven't figured that out yet.) Does that make an expert? Definitely not. But it does leave me with a far more educated guess than most people in the general public.

Second, I don't have to wear their uniform to know leadership. But since you are going to pull that card: Have you ever been a military NCO? If you haven't, then by your own reasoning, you have no place making a comparison.

However, for us to really know, we need someone that has been both. Anyone out there both military and cop?

[Trung Si Ma]

Anyone out there both military and cop?

Never been a cop, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night! 

But I have dated a cop for five years - while being an NCO - and so got to live in both worlds.  Michelle's world was actually more insular than ours was with more of a feeling of its us versus them than I have ever seen in the military.  And yes, I was in the Army right after VN when we were almost a praetorian guard - we were extremely proud of the fact that we were not like the ones we were sworn to protect.

And the father of my god daughters is an Army Officer with a degree in Criminology / Police Science (who worked as a Georgia cop while going through college) says he could never go back to being a cop after being in the military - the mindsets are just too different.

The main difference that I noticed is that the cops are there to protect society - a specific society defined by their jurisdiction - and we existed to protect an idea defined by the constitution.  It's a hard issue to define, but for me I think I saw it best during Granada as we stood shoulder to shoulder, facing outward, as the St. George's University students moved down that protective corridor and on to the helicopters for a ride to the hospital - we were protecting the Innocent from the wolf.  Contrast that to police actions during any major activity (Detroit Riots, LA Riots, Katrina, etc) - the police moved to protect the societal infrastructure first.

Most of the cops that I have gotten to really know through either societal connections or through a lifetime of competitive shooting are more time focused - the end of my shift, overtime, etc - and most NCOs have been focused on the event.  Maybe that is why "training to standard, not to schedule" is a military phrase and not a cop phrase.

Here is a side question - why are the police departments of the US trying so hard to hire military NCOs and there is no program that targets hiring cops into the military?

Another question - when does the legal concept of double jeopardy not apply?  When you are being tried under the UCMJ after getting away with it in a civilian court.

[DrJbdm]

Hawk, I appreciate your comeback, and yes with your exposure you might very well be a little more familiar then someone who hasn't been exposed to the environment. Thanks for the background.

  I was not trying to make a comparison between an NCO and an experienced Police Officer. There are many concepts and ideas that a good NCO could bring to a Police Department. I'm not saying the training is equal, it's different in concept and practice but not extremely dissimilar. As a Sr. Police Officer who helps recruit and hire new Officers I would love to get great former NCO's. One of my Officers is a retired Navy Command Master Chief, I wish I could find a 100 more just like him.

   I took the impression that your post to be derogatory to Police Officers and took the impression that you where saying that they wouldn't make great NCOs or even Officers for CAP. (I think CAP NEEDS both a great NCO corp and Officer Corp with professional training and standards for both)

  I think we all want nothing more then to have the best people in CAP who make us look and act more respectable and Professional. Times are changing and CAP has to change with it and the first step comes from recruiting great people. The day of lets take anyone with a pulse is coming to a very fast close, CAP needs to develop a better set of standards for both NCO and Officer.



 

 

[shorning]

Call NHQ and tell them that you want to be a SMSgt instead of a Major and listen to the silence.  BTDT

I know people that have down that successfully.  Either way, it's not NHQ's call.

[arajca]

The reason I brought fire and police supervisors into the discussion was to question why NCO grades should be restricted to military NCO's. So far no one has convinced me that military NCO's are so god-like that no mere CAP member should ever hope to attain NCO grades. I see no reason the restrict the NCO grades to military personnel only. The junior nco grades are roughly equal to a foreman of a small crew. The mid nco grades, a site supervisor. The senior nco grades, mid-level management. Where is the mystery? What makes military NCO's so special that non-military CAP members should be prohibited from attaining the same grades in CAP?

[Trung Si Ma]

I don't think that they should be restricted to just military types - I think that we should all start there

[arajca]

Others have said that. Along with restricting senior NCO grades to military NCO's.

[lordmonar]

Ahh, my understanding is that we CAN'T promote because of the way military NCOs become CAP NCOs...wearing the grade insignia they are actually entitled to by the military. 

Yes that is exactly right.  The CAP rank system is based off officer ranks.  We only allow ex-NCO's to continue to wear their NCO stripes because they would rather wear stripes than bars.

And therefore the NCO ranks mean absolutely nothing to either the USAF or CAP.

But....the is nothing really stopping CAP from creating a new rank structure that includes enlisted ranks.  I just don't see the real need and I do think it will cause some heart burn in the recruiting and retention area.

Again, it just irks me that we don't have a CAP distinctive NCO insignia to acknowledge/reward duty performance for NCOs the same way we do Officers...after all, an Air Force Captain can join as a CAP Captain, can wears CAP grade insignia and can be promoted to Major.    The NCO who's in my squadron commands a lot of respect from the cadet (and Officers) because he's an NCO.  He's done a lot of work for the unit and it would just be nice to give him something more tangible than a piece of paper to hang on the wall.

If a SM wanted that sort of recognition...he would not have opted for the NCO stripes in the first place.  Secondly...we don't recognize hard work with promotions.  We promote people when they complete a set of training and meet minimum requirements, no hard work required (okay some but not a lot.)  If you want to recognize you hard working NCO's put him in for a MSM or Commander Commendation or some such.

[DrJbdm]

I honestly believe that if we had a standard of measurement in order to be an Officer then enlisted ranks would be very appropriate. The average person on the street not to mention the AD or NG forces that do not know of CAP have NO clue that CAP has no enlisted ranks for general membership, they assume that there is if there is an Officer side to CAP. I know many people who can not understand why we make EVERYONE an Officer.

  I honestly feel that cap needs to create a enlisted system for those who can't or won't meet the standards of measurement to be an Officer. it might really bring around more respect from the AF as I am sure they firmly believe that not everyone with a pulse should be an officer. Does it strike any of you as being a good thing that the guy who fell of the back end of the short bus should be an Officer in CAP and wear the Air Force style uniform??

  An honest standard of measurement along with a good OTS would be needed before CAP could honestly look at having enlisted ranks. Those that don't qualify to be officers would be brought into CAP as enlisted members.  Yes while currently our NCO grades are reserved for former Military NCOs it wouldn't take much to create a system of enlisted ranks for the general membership they just need to decide to do it. As far as creating heartbun and retention issues because of it, I don't see it. SDFs like the Texas State Guard brings everyone in as an enlisted member, only those who meet the ANG standard for commissioning can become an Officer....and they still have to serve 2 years in the enlisted side unless you're a former military officer. they have no real issues with members getting heartburn for being enlisted or in retention problems.

  Try this on for size, this one idea that I just thought of that might be very easy to implement, and still uses our current 5 grade progression structure. all those not meeting the standard to be an officer would start as an AB. (use DNalls standard for Officers)

Upon reaching level one and 6month = Senior Airman  (same requirements for currently being a 2Lt)
level 2, tech rating and 1yr TIG = Staff Sgt  (1st Lt under current regs)
level three and 18 months = Tech Sgt
level four and 3 years = master Sgt
level five and 4 years = SMSGT
SMSGTs would be selected by Wing Commanders to serve as the wing CMSGT.

The only difference in reaching those levels above would be to remove Officer course work and supplementing appropriate NCO level course work.

  Those qualified to be Officers would after completing a year long OTS,  become 2Lt's and complete the standard progression as we currently have but with more AFIADL requirements and more standards as the ranks progress.  This is just a rough idea as to how CAP could do the enlisted grades without having to shelve the intire progression system we have in place now. I currently  love DNalls plan, but that would require CAP to completely be overhauled, which I am sure would ultimately be the best solution for CAP. This is only another way to easily add badly needed enlisted ranks. Although I really feel DNalls method of selecting those to be Officers should be the new standard even if we went to something like I'm presenting here.

[DNall]

we were almost a praetorian guard - we were extremely proud of the fact that we were not like the ones we were sworn to protect.

Oh I think that's still a pretty common virtue much more than anyone would ever speak out loud, regardless of the times, but given the time you're speaking of I know that must have been VERY hard to ignore.

The reason I brought fire and police supervisors into the discussion was to question why NCO grades should be restricted to military NCO's. So far no one has convinced me that military NCO's are so god-like that no mere CAP member should ever hope to attain NCO grades. I see no reason the restrict the NCO grades to military personnel only. The junior nco grades are roughly equal to a foreman of a small crew. The mid nco grades, a site supervisor. The senior nco grades, mid-level management. Where is the mystery? What makes military NCO's so special that non-military CAP members should be prohibited from attaining the same grades in CAP?

I think I mentioned before... I think people are looking at it sideways on this one. I think the complaint is: looking at CAP you get a mixed bag of some very good members & many less than good ones in the eyes of an experienced military NCO assessing things by the standards he/she has been held to all their career & had drummed into them like the voice of God. From that perspective you look at creating an NCO corps & making the officer corps standards significantly higher. The natural logic is that the smaller percentage of outstanding people are going to rise to the officer grades while the less than desirable element is left behind as NCOs. If I were an NCO thinking that were the case, I'd be fired up about not allowing it also. They are going to demand professional standards of NCOs & expect them to earn every bit of the grade they wear as direct leaders & subject matter experts. That's a reasonable expectation, and we should meet it.

The comment I have on fire/LE/EMS supervisors is not that they don't have anything worthy of being on our table, but that the leadership & mgmt training they do have is not a nationally standardized measurable equal of certain aspects of military training & advancement. We don't & shouldn't give an MBA advanced grade either, and they probably do have quite a bit they can bring to help us out (save your comments on the worth of such a degree, it's just an example).


I appreciate the support of the ideas I've advanced, but again I can only claim credit for a small smidgen. It's mostly the AF system juxtaposed with the reality of CAP, and with a significant amount of work from MANY other contributors. While what I posted is now my ideas, it's almost all stolen from other VERY qualified people in a lively & respectful conversation like this one (actually a long series of such discussions). My only real contribution is to stoke the fire now & again & keep people's wheels turning.

My honest opinion is that the general concept of what I posed is what I'd very much like to see & what I'd try to force into place if I had the power to do so. My opinion is that it hurts less to rip the tape off fast than to pull it off tortuously slow, especially in sensitive areas like this. However, the only ways I know to move down this road are long slow ones. We can have these conversations & hope to catch national attention (which it does by the way), we can try to move toward a juxtaposition of these ideas & what Iowa is doing, and/or we can take a local approach & do the best we can & hope it gets noticed & stolen by the next higher echelon. I'll still be working my back channels to bring pressure on CAP to reform, and I expect others will do all they can to push CAP from inside & out. Ultimately I think as team we can drive CAP toward "excellence in all we do" & not making excuses or tolerating laziness or law standards along the way. It just takes time. In the meantime, if all I get is a spirited discussion with you guys that shows all our passion for CAP, then thanks for personal development.

[arajca]

You're saying that no one except military nco's are good enough to hold senior nco grades in CAP. That there is not chance anyone except a military nco will ever be good enough. I can't accept that.

[Hawk200]

I took the impression that your post to be derogatory to Police Officers and took the impression that you where saying that they wouldn't make great NCOs or even Officers for CAP. (I think CAP NEEDS both a great NCO corp and Officer Corp with professional training and standards for both)

If I gave you that impression then I sincerely apologize. I have a great deal of respect for  law enforcement, especially considering my father's background.  I may end up a cop myself in the next year or so, it depends on how the cards fall.

Considering the professionalism of the good LEO's I've known, I have no doubt that they are high caliber. I still believe that law enforcement is a completely different world, and definitely no more or less than the military NCO. It's the differences in how each is trained, not the quality that I intended to address.

And it's hard not to respect someone that spends a great deal of duty time helping people that quite often don't want their help. This is still a great irony to me, especially when I hear the phrase: "Where's a cop when you need one?" I want to tell these people that they have made it clear to those cops that they don't want their help. That takes a great deal of dedication to put up with that kind of attitude among the populace.

[Hawk200]

The reason I brought fire and police supervisors into the discussion was to question why NCO grades should be restricted to military NCO's. So far no one has convinced me that military NCO's are so god-like that no mere CAP member should ever hope to attain NCO grades. I see no reason the restrict the NCO grades to military personnel only. The junior nco grades are roughly equal to a foreman of a small crew. The mid nco grades, a site supervisor. The senior nco grades, mid-level management. Where is the mystery? What makes military NCO's so special that non-military CAP members should be prohibited from attaining the same grades in CAP?

If you're talking about a promotion system for CAP starting from the bottom and then moving up to the NCO grades, then everyone could do it.

My personal premise would simply be transferring military grade to CAP NCO grade. The military would never take a person into the military with no prior military experience and make them an NCO. It wouldn't happen. So there's no reason for CAP to do so.

It's not a matter being "god like", it's a matter of spending your time, paying your dues. I wouldn't want someone in charge of me that had never mopped the floors like I did, I don't care what they are. And I think you may find that attitude prevalent among most military personnel. It would be like handing someone fresh off the street a colonel bird, or general stars.

[arajca]

The reason I brought fire and police supervisors into the discussion was to question why NCO grades should be restricted to military NCO's. So far no one has convinced me that military NCO's are so god-like that no mere CAP member should ever hope to attain NCO grades. I see no reason the restrict the NCO grades to military personnel only. The junior nco grades are roughly equal to a foreman of a small crew. The mid nco grades, a site supervisor. The senior nco grades, mid-level management. Where is the mystery? What makes military NCO's so special that non-military CAP members should be prohibited from attaining the same grades in CAP?

If you're talking about a promotion system for CAP starting from the bottom and then moving up to the NCO grades, then everyone could do it.

Not according to DNall's proposal.

My personal premise would simply be transferring military grade to CAP NCO grade. The military would never take a person into the military with no prior military experience and make them an NCO. It wouldn't happen. So there's no reason for CAP to do so.

It's not a matter being "god like", it's a matter of spending your time, paying your dues. I wouldn't want someone in charge of me that had never mopped the floors like I did, I don't care what they are. And I think you may find that attitude prevalent among most military personnel. It would be like handing someone fresh off the street a colonel bird, or general stars.

To apply that logic, why should CAP give advanced grade to someone who has not worked with cadets or served as a GTM? CAP is not the military. CAP needs leaders. More importantly, CAP needs leaders who understand how the civilian world works. You don't get that from the military. There is a reason for CAP to give advanced NCO grades to leaders regardless of their origin. We need them. How many NCO's come to CAP with an understanding of how CAP works and what it does? I haven't met one yet. Most have heard rumors or tales. I have met several who learned about CAP, what it does, and how it works after they joined. Some of these joined as CAP NCO's, others joined as CAP officers. If a local SAR team leader wanted to join, would you start him at the bottom? Keep in mind he has the leadership and real world rescue skills CAP needs. Would it not make sense to start him at a higher grade, say E-5, if he is willing to use his skills for CAP?

The attitude of "if you haven't done what I have, you aren't good enough" may work in the military, but it doesn't work in the civilian world. How many times have people had supervisors brought in that haven't gone through the same training and work history they have? You're still expected to do your job. That military attitude will get you fired.

Your analogy of giving someone off the street birds or stars fails because those grades are reserved for corporate officers.

[DNall]

Um, we don't insult military officers & NCOs by demoting them when they come over. If you see the cases where a person is moving from one service to another & doesn't reatin their full grade, it's cause they gave them everything they qualified for. If you're an E-5 AF aircraft mechanic going infantry, well you aren't really qualified to directly lead troops in battle & probably are only goiong to get E-4 until you do the back work & get up to speed. I don't think CAP is in any kind of position to tell a real military officer or NCO that they don't meet our standards as a leader, and I don't think we're so flush w/ qual'd leaders that we can deter them from participting. Therefore, they keep their grade, period. We may require them to do some training to transition and to transition from there, but that's not changing, and frankly full Col should be opened up to that as well.

Other then that one exception to policy, which is also in deference to the NCOs we'd be seeking to placate & reassure, the top couple NCO grades in the system I proposed are position oriented, just like the top officer grades of Col - Maj Gen  are (now AND under the version I proposed) position oriented. The gigantic dif being those couple NCO grades are elected by members to speak for them in the structure, just like CAC does for cadets. So yes, any member can earn those grades, regardless if they'd never been in the military, and to keep the grade w/o the 1Sgt diamond after they leave office, all they have to do is serve the term satisfactorily & have finished level V in the PD program. I don't know if I wasn't explaining myself well, or if I'm missing what you're talking about, but straighten me out & I'll be glad to give it some more thought.