Cadet with PPL

[FRG Cadet]

If you are a cadet who has earned their PPL , (and 200 hours) , can you give O-flights?

[lordmonar]

No...CAP O-Ride Pilots must be 21 or 18 with with a CFI

f. Cadet Orientation Pilot. The following requirements must be met to be designated as a cadet orientation pilot:
(1) Be an active CAP pilot at least 21 years of age (or 18 years of age with a valid FAA CFI certificate).
(2) CAP powered pilots must have a minimum of 200 hours (300 hours for AFROTC and AFJROTC orientation flights) total pilot-in-command (PIC) time in the category and class of airplane to be used.

[Eclipse]

Um, the answer is actually "yes", at least based on what you published above.

It only says member "CAP Pilot" and 18, not Senior member.

[jimmydeanno]

Um, the answer is actually "yes", at least based on what you published above.

It only says member and 18, not Senior member.

It doesn't say anything about "member" it says "CAP Pilot."  So, yes a cadet could provide orientation flights as an orientation flight pilot so long as they were 18 and had an FAA CFI Certificate with a minimum of 200 hour PIC.

[DNall]

which for practical purposes means no.

[cnitas]

Not sure about that. 
I have a cadet 19 yo Instrument rated pilot working on her CFI right now.
She hopes to have it finished by the beginning of the summer (She would be 20).

Now she would not be a cadet o-pilot for long, but it is possible.

[swamprat86]

There is also the CPPT issue about leaving cadets unsupervised.  So, even if they are qualified, there may be other factors that would not make it possible.  This is the same issue about having an 18 yo cadet ground team leader with a team of only cadets.  They are qualified but still need SM supervision.

[davidsinn]

There is also the CPPT issue about leaving cadets unsupervised.  So, even if they are qualified, there may be other factors that would not make it possible.  This is the same issue about having an 18 yo cadet ground team leader with a team of only cadets.  They are qualified but still need SM supervision.

What about that Puerto Rican all cadet aircrew that was in the Volunteer not too long back...? If you're that worried about CPPT stick a smallish SM in the back seat.

[lordmonar]

Um, the answer is actually "yes", at least based on what you published above.

It only says member "CAP Pilot" and 18, not Senior member.

He said he was a cadet with a PPL....ergo he is under 21 and does not have CFI.

Also I seem to remember somewhere a rule about no all cadet crews....don't know if that was a draft or just something that was being discussed.

I have also heard the CPP argument....but I think that is kind of stretch in my thinking YMMV.

[DNall]

Not sure about that. 
I have a cadet 19 yo Instrument rated pilot working on her CFI right now.
She hopes to have it finished by the beginning of the summer (She would be 20).

Now she would not be a cadet o-pilot for long, but it is possible.

Which applies to what, six people in CAP? So again, for practical purposes, no.

There is also the CPPT issue about leaving cadets unsupervised.  So, even if they are qualified, there may be other factors that would not make it possible.  This is the same issue about having an 18 yo cadet ground team leader with a team of only cadets.  They are qualified but still need SM supervision.

Cadets over 18 are required to complete CPPT. They are bound by that policy in the same way SMs are, and equally capable of supervising cadets. The law/courts/jury all look at that over 18 individual as an adult, regardless if we classify them as a cadet or not. They are for cadet supervision purposes an adult.

[Ned]

Cadets over 18 are required to complete CPPT. They are bound by that policy in the same way SMs are, and equally capable of supervising cadets. The law/courts/jury all look at that over 18 individual as an adult, regardless if we classify them as a cadet or not. They are for cadet supervision purposes an adult.

Strong non-concur.

While the courts will view anyone who has attained the age of majority as an adult, that does not mean that "18 and over cadets" can supervise other cadets on the same basis as a senior member.

A senior is required to be present at all cadet activities, even if all of the cadets are over 18.

Think of it like high school.  Some 12th-graders may be 18, but there still has to be a teacher on the field trip.

[swamprat86]

I agree.  If they won't allow FO to have more responsibility because of their age/experience, why would it be OK to have a cadet, regardless of age, be responsible for not only flying an aircraft, but the safety of another cadet without SM supervision.  I would think the Wing Safety and Operations Officers and the Wing Commander would have severe reservations about OKing a cadet to be an O-pilot under those conditions.

[cnitas]

I would think the Wing Safety and Operations Officers and the Wing Commander would have severe reservations about OKing a cadet to be an O-pilot under those conditions.

Why?
You are talking about a FAA rated CFI now, not just a random old cadet.

Which applies to what, six people in CAP? So again, for practical purposes, no.

Obviously this is a rare occurance.  What the OP was asking is if it was possible, not if it was normal.

[CASH172]

Something I always wondered about this rule was if one needed 200 PIC time even if they were a CFI.  I'm intending on being a CFI at 19, but won't have 200 PIC time at that point. 

[Eclipse]

I agree that for the purposes of CAP, anyone with the word "CADET" on their ID card is not considered an adult within the program, and should never be charged with supervising other cadets alone.

That's part of the point of the 18-21 year old situation.  You relinquish some of the rights you might have in similar situations at that age in return for access to opportunities you wouldn't have access to as a Senor Member.

In this case the CPPT issues are not insurmountable, though that would be a subjective Wing CC call.  A lot of activities function under a "no cadet out of sight policy", however that isn't actually the rule - only that the activity itself be supervised as per 52-10 / 16 (one senior member for normal activities, two for overnight, no gender bias).

I could certainly see a situation where, to foster the program, a Wing CC allows that the activity itself is being supervised by a senior member, and the pattern rides are an extension of that activity.  That obviously is a "great idea" until something "bad" happens, at which point everyone will be asking the obvious questions.

There's also the general CYA rule a lot of pilots live by that they don't like to fly with a cadet alone.

At the end of the day, a highspeed cadet pilot could be providing o-rides to lots of other cadets, and its a simple thing to find a Senior member non-pilot who can ride GIB.

[jimmydeanno]

Something I always wondered about this rule was if one needed 200 PIC time even if they were a CFI.  I'm intending on being a CFI at 19, but won't have 200 PIC time at that point. 

Yes, you need the 200 hours.  The CFI rating is just an extra hurdle for cadets who want to be O-Flight Pilots (Since a 20 year old with 300 hours is much less capable than a 30 year old with 200...)

[swamprat86]

Why?
You are talking about a FAA rated CFI now, not just a random old cadet.

The rating is not the issue, it's having a cadet as an o-pilot.  Listen, as a former cadet, I think we are sometimes too restrictive in what we allow cadets to do today, but I have to say I am not comfortable about this topic. 

I would also think that there are probably some parents that would be concerned about another cadet flying their cadet regardless of their ability.

[DNall]

Cadets over 18 are required to complete CPPT. They are bound by that policy in the same way SMs are, and equally capable of supervising cadets. The law/courts/jury all look at that over 18 individual as an adult, regardless if we classify them as a cadet or not. They are for cadet supervision purposes an adult.

Strong non-concur.

While the courts will view anyone who has attained the age of majority as an adult, that does not mean that "18 and over cadets" can supervise other cadets on the same basis as a senior member.

A senior is required to be present at all cadet activities, even if all of the cadets are over 18.

Think of it like high school.  Some 12th-graders may be 18, but there still has to be a teacher on the field trip.

That's per CAP regs, which are drawn from outside law. It is not per the outside law. It is just a narrow technicality that CAP has chosen not to address. And that's appropriate cause an over 18 cadet may not be the ranking cadet, which then creates a problem.

However, for legal purposes, an over 18 cadet is viewed by the law & CPPT as an adult in supervision of cadets. IE - it is not inappropriate to allow that situation under the overall responsibility/oversight of a senior.

However, that does not preclude a cadet o-pilot or GTL. The reg requires senior supervision of the activity, not every little facet of it. I would argue the interpretation of that reg allows me as a senior to be on the ground as a project officer & send a cadet o-pilot up w/o an adult, just the same as a cadet instructing a class to other cadets in a room down the hall from seniors.

[Ned]

That's per CAP regs, which are drawn from outside law. It is not per the outside law. It is just a narrow technicality that CAP has chosen not to address. [. . .]

However, for legal purposes, an over 18 cadet is viewed by the law & CPPT as an adult in supervision of cadets. IE - it is not inappropriate to allow that situation under the overall responsibility/oversight of a senior.

Ahh, no.  Not even close.

Cadets certainly supervise cadets.  That's is an important part of our program as cadets learn to lead.

But CAP cadets will never be viewed the same as an adult senior member supervisor by any court. (I do have some expertise in this area.)

Again, think of the high school analogy.  No 12-grader (I'm trying to avoid the use of the word "senior" in this context.  ) would be ever viewed by the courts as adult supervisors at a school activity, even if she/he were 18.    They are students; no more, no less. 

Kind of like CAP cadets.

However, that does not preclude a cadet o-pilot or GTL. The reg requires senior supervision of the activity, not every little facet of it. I would argue the interpretation of that reg allows me as a senior to be on the ground as a project officer & send a cadet o-pilot up w/o an adult, just the same as a cadet instructing a class to other cadets in a room down the hall from seniors.

On this we agree.

Ned Lee
Former CAP Legal Officer

[Eclipse]

However, for legal purposes, an over 18 cadet is viewed by the law & CPPT as an adult in supervision of cadets.

Nope, sorry.

The law can say whatever it wants to, but as long as our regs are more strict, what the law wants to offer as an option is immaterial.

If CAP defined an "adult" within its program as 35, then that's what the program would consider an adult, period.

[SJFedor]

It's all very simple. The regulation says:

f. Cadet Orientation Pilot. The following requirements must be met to be designated as a cadet orientation pilot:
(1) Be an active CAP pilot at least 21 years of age (or 18 years of age with a valid FAA CFI certificate).
(2) CAP powered pilots must have a minimum of 200 hours (300 hours for AFROTC and AFJROTC orientation flights) total pilot-in-command (PIC) time in the category and class of airplane to be used.

If a pilot meets these requirements, and are designated by their Wing/Region/CC or designee, they may fly CAP cadet orientation flights, cadet or senior.

Everyone is waving the CPPT flag (again), yet I just re-read R52-10 for about the 5th time, and i'll be darned if I can't find ANYTHING that pertains to this situation. People seem to make tons of claims about CPPT that simply don't appear in the 3-page regulation.

So, simply enough, it's a non issue.


And to answer the cadet's question, no, a cadet with a PPL, regardless of age, cannot conduct CAP cadet orientation flights. When he/she turns 21, or recieved their CFI, whichever comes first, plus their 200 hours PIC time, then they may be designated as such.

[Eclipse]

Everyone is waving the CPPT flag (again), yet I just re-read R52-10 for about the 5th time, and i'll be darned if I can't find ANYTHING that pertains to this situation. People seem to make tons of claims about CPPT that simply don't appear in the 3-page regulation.

So, simply enough, it's a non issue.

The CPPT flag is legit - a lot of O-Ride situations are one pilot and 2-3 cadets meeting at an airport.  The regs are clear that you have to have at least one Senior present for all cadet activities.

This can be easily managed, but not ignored.

[lordmonar]

Sure a senior must be "present" for the activity.....no one is quesitioning that.

But does that mean there must be a senior member on board the aircraft?

Some will say yes....I say no.

There are lots of activiites where cadets are by themselves with out direct SM supervision.

The argument against all cadet crews is that they are too far out of pocket in relation to the CPP rules.

It is definatly a gray area not anticipated by the writers of either the CPP, 52-16 or 60-1.

[Eclipse]

^ I fully concur with the above and would suggest that should be a Wing CC's specific call.

[notaNCO forever]

  I agree with lordmonar but it is really a non issue since their will probably never be a cadet giving o flights.

[DNall]

And CAP can do whatever it wants by reg/SOP. I agreed with that point & we all agree on the practical application of it.

Over 18 cadets are required to take CPPT for what reason? Cause they're legally adults right? Okay, so you have a situation where you have a legal adult with CPPT overseeing minors. That's really all there is to it from an outside legal perspective.

Certainly the school/faculty in that example have a responsibility to provide supervision because they are dealing with students. The law is written with the assumption that all students are minors, and policy/law governing their supervision is drawn from that. However, it is not then applied back on those students. If an 18yo HS student commits a crime at school, they are going to be tried as an adult.

I'm not advocating in any part here that an over 18 cadet is adequate to be the only adult supervision at a cadet event. That would be stupid, at least based on the rank issue I mentioned before. I'm just stating that they are an adult & trained per CPPT. The liability will be based on that, not cadet versus senior member (and the assumption is FO of the same age).

[Eclipse]

The law is written with the assumption that all students are minors, and policy/law governing their supervision is drawn from that.

Which law?  Certainly being a "student" does not automatically make you a minor - graduate students and late-career Master's students might have something to say about that.

[DNall]

The law is written with the assumption that all students are minors, and policy/law governing their supervision is drawn from that.

Which law?  Certainly being a "student" does not automatically make you a minor - graduate students and late-career Master's students might have something to say about that.

That just for the sake of raising hell.

[rightstuffpilot]

For all interested in this topic, continue to follow up with NCAC meeting minutes.  This is currently an issue being actively persued.  The new version of 60-1, unless rewritten, will stop cadets from being orientation pilots.  NCAC is still hoping that this does not pass and will continue working on the issue.

Now for my own personal standpoint--  I'm a cadet.  I currently am ASEL/AMEL Commercial Instrument and should get my CFI within the next month to month and a half.  I'm a strong believer in that FAA regulations should be the guiding force behind CAP Aircraft regulations.  From a safety (and in my opinion, a legal standpoint), I would much rather have a CFI or ASEL/AMEL Commercial Instrument pilot with 250 hours in 2 years flying with my cadet than a Private Pilot with 200 hours who is just barely passenger/CAP current.  With CAP already short on CFI's, why not encourage that age range which is sometimes difficult to capture.

A side fact- VFR Flight(private pilot, no instrument rating) into IMC Conditions is fatal 82% of the time.

[CASH172]

With CAP already short on CFI's, why not encourage that age range which is sometimes difficult to capture.

That's something I'm trying to get to as well.  At my current rate of training, I should be a CFI/CFII by the end of the next August.  Some areas aren't getting the o-flights they should, and reducing the amount of O-Flight pilots doesn't help the situation. 

[caprr275]

I am a cadet and if I was not turning 21 in 2 days I would be a cadet and a CFI. YES YES YES cadets can do O-flights under the current regs. The new 60-1 that is up for approval takes that away however the next version that is in the final stages before it goes into draft form (yes they are changing it again within a month of the “new” one being up for approval)   

<start rant>
Any member who says a 18 year old FO with a PPL is more qualified or more capable than a 20 year old cadet CFI needs to pull their head out of where ever they have it stuck and realize that cadets can do stuff!
<end rant>

If anyone would like to help the NCAC in writing a letter to support cadet CFIs please email me at robert.bowden@cap.usafaux.us or PM me on here

[SJFedor]

I am a cadet and if I was not turning 21 in 2 days I would be a cadet and a CFI. YES YES YES cadets can do O-flights under the current regs. The new 60-1 that is up for approval takes that away however the next version that is in the final stages before it goes into draft form (yes they are changing it again within a month of the "new" one being up for approval)   

<start rant>
Any member who says a 18 year old FO with a PPL is more qualified or more capable than a 20 year old cadet CFI needs to pull their head out of where ever they have it stuck and release that cadets can do stuff!
<end rant>

if anyone would like to help the NCAC in writing a letter to support cadet CFIs please email me at robert.bowden@cap.usafaux.us or PM me on here

It never had anything to do with senior vs cadet status. It's simply been 21 w/ the hours or 18 with the CFI.

[caprr275]

Col Vasquez who is the person who helped write the 60-1 didn't even relies that there were cadets out there that were CFIs or close to their CFIs.  The argument for CPP does not work because a 18 year old cadet undergoes the same training as a new senior member.

With more and more cadets attending schools such as UND, Western Michigan University and Embry Riddle we will be getting more and more cadets who will be CFIs.

To not allow cadets to fly a mission that they are by all other rights qualified to fly is an abuse of power on the part of the senior members 

[Capination]

There is also the CPPT issue about leaving cadets unsupervised.  So, even if they are qualified, there may be other factors that would not make it possible.  This is the same issue about having an 18 yo cadet ground team leader with a team of only cadets.  They are qualified but still need SM supervision.

What about that Puerto Rican all cadet aircrew that was in the Volunteer not too long back...? If you're that worried about CPPT stick a smallish SM in the back seat.

The crew that you are referring to were not all cadets...read the article: One Cadet and Two Seniors

[Short Field]

I missed this being a Lazarus thread when I read it.  Moot issue as the current CAPR 60-1 para 2-3(e) states:

Only pilots that are qualified as CAP Instructors, Cadet and ROTC/JROTC Orientation Pilots, or SAR/DR or Transport Mission Pilots (during Supervised Missions) may carry CAP cadets as passengers or crew members. At no time may a pilot who is a CAP Cadet carry another CAP Cadet as a passenger or crew member.

Probably has more to do with prefrontal cortex issues than pilot skills.

[coudano]

I missed this being a Lazarus thread when I read it.  Moot issue as the current CAPR 60-1 para 2-3(e) states:

Only pilots that are qualified as CAP Instructors, Cadet and ROTC/JROTC Orientation Pilots, or SAR/DR or Transport Mission Pilots (during Supervised Missions) may carry CAP cadets as passengers or crew members. At no time may a pilot who is a CAP Cadet carry another CAP Cadet as a passenger or crew member.

Probably has more to do with prefrontal cortex issues than pilot skills.

Meh, although the 60-1 might not have said that, back when this thread was written...

also fwiw, I think I recall reading somewhere once, that senior members *can not* ride in the back seat of a cadet o-ride, but i can't find it anymore.

[BillB]

In "the old days" as a cadet I flew a mission with a cadet Observer. The plane was a USAF loaned L-4 (2 seats). Thnen cadets could hold a CAP pilot rating or Observer rating. There was no requirement for a senior to be aboard. BTW, on that mission we had a find of a missing Luscombe in north Florida.

[JeffDG]

Um, the answer is actually "yes", at least based on what you published above.

It only says member "CAP Pilot" and 18, not Senior member.

He said he was a cadet with a PPL....ergo he is under 21 and does not have CFI.

You could be a Subpart K CFI (ie. Sport Pilot CFI) with a private license.  A standard CFI, however, requires a commercial ticket (not likely anyone under 21 is grandfathered from when you could get a CFI with a private).  While you could potentially get a commercial under a Part 141 school in less, Part 61 Commercial in and of itself requires more than 200 hours of PIC time, so those CFIs would meet that requirement as a prerequisite of receiving their CFI...Sport CFIs, IIRC, requires at least 150 PIC.

[EMT-83]

also fwiw, I think I recall reading somewhere once, that senior members *can not* ride in the back seat of a cadet o-ride, but i can't find it anymore.

CAPP 52-7, page 3.