IFR Mission

[Flying Pig]

This is all taking into account FAR's, minimums, safety, etc etc.

So lets assume a guy needs to fly a surveillance mission.  Its IFR at your home airport and calling IFR at your surveillance location about 60 miles away.  However, the guys on the ground are saying, "OK, I dont know anything about weather, but Im looking at blue sky.  Can you just come check it out because we really need aerial obs."

Is it possible to file to a fix near the area of the mission, and then, if still IFR request ATC to vector you around, say in a box at varying altitudes, 3-5 mile legs so you can see if there are any areas of VFR to see the target?  Assuming all the safeties are met, terrain clearances, yada yada. 

If you find VFR and your within regs, cancel and do the mission VFR.  If you dont find blue sky, file back to where you came from or to another airport?

Or.....  If you assume ahead of time that you arent going to find any VFR conditions, file to a fix, let them vector you around a little and then head back?  Basically an IFR cross country with your start and end being the same airport? I am going to try it this winter and see what happens.  In the past, Ive looked at the weather and made my determinations based on that. But the Area Forecast, TAF's and other weather isnt taking into account that there is a 5mi x 5mi hole in the sky over farmer Johns meth lab way out in the country.  Any CAPers done anything like that before?

I have, in the past, filed IFR to an airport near the location and when I shot the approach, I would make my determination then.  If broke out at 3000AGL or so, I would cancel IFR and proceeded under the layer and completed the mission.  But I have never gone to a fix, asked for vectors around, varying altitudes, etc etc.  I would imagine all you have to do is ask, if they can, they will, if they cant, they wont. 

Im pretty decent with IFR, but Im wanting to really exploit the system this year now that Im more confident with it!

Edit: Changed Title

[lordmonar]

A.  Unless the guy on the ground is a NOAA weather observer......I don't think I would accept his "I see blue skies" as a valid go/no-go input.

B. Assuming that there really is VFR in the target zone......could not just file an IFR flight path that over flew that zone and then canx your IFR once you get to the VFR area?  The tricky part would be that you would have to file an IFR plan in the air for the return trip back.

C. A lot would depend of the nature of the IFR conditions.   If it was IFR because of slow moving thunderstorms I would not attempt this at all.....if it was IRF for ground fog or something....the maybe....just maybe.

D.  I am not a pilot....but I have a lot of observer time and a lot of mission base time.   The real key would be the ORM matrix at the mission base.  There would have to be on hell of justifcation to launch into IFR conditions in the first place....let alone doing a grid search a VFR patch inside some IFR conditions.

[coudano]

Yah I was gonna say,
would a flight release officer even release on that?

[Flying Pig]

Sorry...I should have prefaced that.  This isnt regarding a CAP mission.  Since Im not in CAP anymore.....

As far as the weather, whats causing the IFR, thats why I started my post with This is all taking into account FAR's, minimums, safety, etc etc.  In central CA, we just get this muck that hangs around for days, if not weeks just hanging there. 

Im talking about procedurally.  Has anyone done it.  I think I read in Volunteer one time where a bay area unit did an ELT search IFR and was able to get ATC to vector them around in a grid search and actually located it.

I knew this was going to be like pulling teeth........

[lzu2]

CAP not withstanding, yes, you could do it pretty much as you described, but there is negotion involved. If your target is VFR you could cancel IFR, but stay on flight following. Then when it's time to go home, they already have your stuff and can just issue you a clearance.

If you're target area was broken clouds, you could stay IFR and request them to send around on vectors, or they might be willing to define an area based on some VOR radials that you have to stay within, but you can otherwise steer around as you wish. That's where the negotiation part comes in.

[Spaceman3750]

Yah I was gonna say,
would a flight release officer even release on that?

I'm neither a pilot or an FRO, but as a general bystander I would say why not? If the PIC is instrument current, he's definitely OK to safely take off and land in IFR, and if the PIC decides that he's VFR in the search area, then that's his call to cancel the flight plan.

Are we really going to take the stance that we have to be VFR all the way from the runway to the search area to work when the PIC is instrument rated and the search area is VFR?

[Flying Pig]

As a former Mission Pilot and former FRO, if I recall, the FRO is there to ensure the CAP part of the process is completed, not to tell the PIC whether or not the are "allowed" to perform a mission.  Now if the FRO is the IC, then obviously that would be a separate issue, but it would be the IC hat canceling the mission, not the FRO hat.  (But thats for you all to argue about. I dont have an FRO at work )

I know CAP has done it.  I was just wondering if any of YOU have.  In fact, now that I recall, I think it was Phil Blank who wrote the article.  I need to look it up.

[lordmonar]

Well.....the FRO is supposed to be last chance for someone to veto a pilot trying to fly into something they should not.

The FRO should be checking weather, pilot's currency, missio parameters, etc and makes the call to release....he is not there just to make sure the paper work has been filed.

[Flying Pig]

Well.....the FRO is supposed to be last chance for someone to veto a pilot trying to fly into something they should not.

The FRO should be checking weather, pilot's currency, missio parameters, etc and makes the call to release....he is not there just to make sure the paper work has been filed.

I didnt want to turn this into a discussion about CAP red tape. I had an idea and was seeking experience from pilots here on how they would approach it.  My course of action will be to call the tower where I am and say "OK, here is what I am planning......" and then call fliht service and file my plan according to what ATC suggests, fixes, verbage, etc.  But at least when I launch,  my intial tower guy and departure controller know what my plan is.  Ill let you all know how it works come November!

[Robborsari]

For that situation I have requested clearance from Departure Airport to Departure airport via radar vectors.  That way you have some place to go if you lose comms.  A short conversation with clearance explaining what you are doing is usually all it takes.  In flight you just request XX degrees and they will approve it. or vector you if there is traffic.   Never tried it in an area with no radar coverage.  Remember that the controller is not responsible for seperation with the nearby planet, only other traffic.  This is definately a good place for some kind of terrain avoidance system.

I would not cancel IFR when you get to the clear spot.  Just request to proceed VFR in the area for some time period and they will probably just ask you to notify them when you are ready to head back.   Same reason.  You don't want to be stuck in your 5 mi hole if you lose comms and you already canceled IFR. 

[Spaceman3750]

Remember that the controller is not responsible for seperation with the nearby planet, only other traffic.

Would that be Venus or Mars?

[JeffDG]

For that situation I have requested clearance from Departure Airport to Departure airport via radar vectors.  That way you have some place to go if you lose comms.  A short conversation with clearance explaining what you are doing is usually all it takes.  In flight you just request XX degrees and they will approve it. or vector you if there is traffic.   Never tried it in an area with no radar coverage.  Remember that the controller is not responsible for seperation with the nearby planet, only other traffic.  This is definately a good place for some kind of terrain avoidance system.

I would not cancel IFR when you get to the clear spot.  Just request to proceed VFR in the area for some time period and they will probably just ask you to notify them when you are ready to head back.   Same reason.  You don't want to be stuck in your 5 mi hole if you lose comms and you already canceled IFR.

You could ask the controller for the MVA (minimum vectoring altitude) in the area, and that should keep you from a close encounter with the most unwelcome of cloud types:  cumulogranite.

[tsrup]

Depending on the type of airspace you would be flying to, you could ask for a "box" to maneuver in.  We do that all the time here at the university I'm at for practicing Maneuvering in IFR actual. 
Of course where I'm at is in vast swathes of type E.

Otherwise I would agree with the other premise of just filing a track that takes you over the position that is said to be "blue skies" then cancel when VFR conditions exist.  If conditions deteriorate or you decide to head back, you can always file in the air GPS direct home (if they are nice and give you the clearance), otherwise have your charts handy.

I would advocate neither of these for CAP, but based on the vague description of the situation, and the line of work you are in, these are some tools that are at your disposal. 

[simon]

and then, if still IFR

Do you mean IMC? That changes everything.

[AirDX]

If you are IFR the controller is most assuredly responsible for separation from terrain as well as other traffic.  Before we we get into all the "Cite" BS, I was a controller for over 25 years, in center, approach and tower facilities.

Getting a controller to vector you randomly around is going to be hit-or-miss (no pun intended).  If not busy, I'd do it all day long; a lot of controllers, busy or not, would tell you to get lost.

I would also happily clear you for a radius around a lat/long point, and assign you a block altitude from the minimum safe altitude up a couple of thousand feet or so, and let you knock yourself out in there.  That is of course dependent on where you want to go; if you are going to block airspace I need for approaches or departures, forget it.

As far as filing IFR to a search area, no problem.  File to a point (if you want to be friendly, file to a fix/radial/distance... i.e. GRB330035... controllers relate way better to that than looking on a chart for some wacky lat/long).  As you approach the point you filed to, be prepared to do something... preferably cancel IFR.  A cruise clearance might also be in order, but be aware that cruise clearances are widely misunderstood and feared, both among pilots and controllers.

Lost comms are a potential issue... but that's YOUR problem as a pilot, as a controller I don't care.  Putting my pilot hat on, you could  file your departure airport (if it was relatively nearby and met wx requirements, etc) as your alternate.  Lost comms then is fly to the point you've specified, then go back to your departure point and land.

[md]

I'm really enjoying this thread. Working on my instrument now and am glad to hear opinions about how we can (or should or shouldn't) use it for CAP.

If you are IFR the controller is most assuredly responsible for separation from terrain as well as other traffic.  Before we we get into all the "Cite" BS, I was a controller for over 25 years, in center, approach and tower facilities.

Think you mean IFR traffic? Because, last I heard, they don't separate you from VFR traffic except in class B, and that's assuming the VFR actually got their class B clearance...

[JeffDG]

I'm really enjoying this thread. Working on my instrument now and am glad to hear opinions about how we can (or should or shouldn't) use it for CAP.

If you are IFR the controller is most assuredly responsible for separation from terrain as well as other traffic.  Before we we get into all the "Cite" BS, I was a controller for over 25 years, in center, approach and tower facilities.

Think you mean IFR traffic? Because, last I heard, they don't separate you from VFR traffic except in class B, and that's assuming the VFR actually got their class B clearance...

Well...presumably if the conditions are IMC, there shouldn't be VFR traffic out there to separate you from...And we all know that there are no pilots out there who would go fly in IMC without a clearance, right???   (Not talking about CAP pilots...but I've seen enough "stupid pilot tricks" out there in the world!)

Controllers can correct me, but I thought that they (ATC) were also responsible for separation of VFR and IFR in Class C as well.

[Flying Pig]

I fly up and down CA so much the a lot controllers know my call sign. I actually have controllers say "Hey, welcome back, anything I need to be worried about?" So maybe theyll cut me some slack.  I hear CAP call signs all the time. 

[AirDX]

I'm really enjoying this thread. Working on my instrument now and am glad to hear opinions about how we can (or should or shouldn't) use it for CAP.

If you are IFR the controller is most assuredly responsible for separation from terrain as well as other traffic.  Before we we get into all the "Cite" BS, I was a controller for over 25 years, in center, approach and tower facilities.

Think you mean IFR traffic? Because, last I heard, they don't separate you from VFR traffic except in class B, and that's assuming the VFR actually got their class B clearance...

Sigh.  OK, I mean IFR traffic.  Except in Class B and in Class C, and on the runway at a tower-controlled field.  I hope that is specific enough.

[AirDX]

I fly up and down CA so much the a lot controllers know my call sign. I actually have controllers say "Hey, welcome back, anything I need to be worried about?" So maybe theyll cut me some slack.  I hear CAP call signs all the time.

Familiarity helps.  When you recognize a voice, or know from previous experience the pilot isn't just another FLIB driver, controllers can/will do all kinds of stuff.

[AirDX]

I'm really enjoying this thread. Working on my instrument now and am glad to hear opinions about how we can (or should or shouldn't) use it for CAP.

If you are IFR the controller is most assuredly responsible for separation from terrain as well as other traffic.  Before we we get into all the "Cite" BS, I was a controller for over 25 years, in center, approach and tower facilities.

Think you mean IFR traffic? Because, last I heard, they don't separate you from VFR traffic except in class B, and that's assuming the VFR actually got their class B clearance...

Well...presumably if the conditions are IMC, there shouldn't be VFR traffic out there to separate you from...And we all know that there are no pilots out there who would go fly in IMC without a clearance, right???   (Not talking about CAP pilots...but I've seen enough "stupid pilot tricks" out there in the world!)

Controllers can correct me, but I thought that they (ATC) were also responsible for separation of VFR and IFR in Class C as well.

IFR without a flight plan/clearance can still happen in class G.  Not that there's a lot of that around CONUS.  Used to catch wind of that type of activity out in the Dakotas when I worked at Minneapolis Center.

[Robborsari]

If you are IFR the controller is most assuredly responsible for separation from terrain as well as other traffic.  Before we we get into all the "Cite" BS, I was a controller for over 25 years, in center, approach and tower facilities.

...
Lost comms are a potential issue... but that's YOUR problem as a pilot, as a controller I don't care.  Putting my pilot hat on, you could  file your departure airport (if it was relatively nearby and met wx requirements, etc) as your alternate.  Lost comms then is fly to the point you've specified, then go back to your departure point and land.

This is what I was thinking of when I mentioned terrain:
3. Vectors IFR aircraft at or above minimum vectoring altitudes.

4. May vector VFR aircraft, not at an ATC assigned altitude, at any altitude. In these cases, terrain separation is the pilot's responsibility.

You are correct.  Vectors for actual IFR are done above the MVA so it is not an issue.  I was thinking of VFR vectors.

As for the comms, I would never give up an IFR clearance unless I was sure I could get somewhere with a repair shop and a mcdonalds under VFR rules. 

[tsrup]

I'm really enjoying this thread. Working on my instrument now and am glad to hear opinions about how we can (or should or shouldn't) use it for CAP.

If you are IFR the controller is most assuredly responsible for separation from terrain as well as other traffic.  Before we we get into all the "Cite" BS, I was a controller for over 25 years, in center, approach and tower facilities.

Think you mean IFR traffic? Because, last I heard, they don't separate you from VFR traffic except in class B, and that's assuming the VFR actually got their class B clearance...

Well...presumably if the conditions are IMC, there shouldn't be VFR traffic out there to separate you from...And we all know that there are no pilots out there who would go fly in IMC without a clearance, right???   (Not talking about CAP pilots...but I've seen enough "stupid pilot tricks" out there in the world!)

Controllers can correct me, but I thought that they (ATC) were also responsible for separation of VFR and IFR in Class C as well.

IFR without a flight plan/clearance can still happen in class G.  Not that there's a lot of that around CONUS.  Used to catch wind of that type of activity out in the Dakotas when I worked at Minneapolis Center.

We would never take advantage of G like that 

[bosshawk]

Rob: another idea to supplement what has already been said: call the approach control for the area or center and tell them your plan.  That will alert the controllers to your mission and what you would like to do.  Fresno Approach and Lemoore Approach would likely love to help you.  Norcal would also likely be ready to help.

[AirDX]

You are correct.  Vectors for actual IFR are done above the MVA so it is not an issue.  I was thinking of VFR vectors.

Why would you need vectors if you're VFR?  Just hang out wherever you want, all the airspace legalities permitting.

[SARDOC]

Let me caveat my naivety but saying I'm not a pilot.  I recently attended an AOPA Safety Briefing though and please correct me if I'm wrong but couldn't this be a Case to use the "Special VFR" rules?  I just haven't heard anybody mention it and listening to the safety brief this sounds almost like the exact scenario given.  Thanks

[tsrup]

Let me caveat my naivety but saying I'm not a pilot.  I recently attended an AOPA Safety Briefing though and please correct me if I'm wrong but couldn't this be a Case to use the "Special VFR" rules?  I just haven't heard anybody mention it and listening to the safety brief this sounds almost like the exact scenario given.  Thanks

not during IMC, no. 

[JeffDG]

Let me caveat my naivety but saying I'm not a pilot.  I recently attended an AOPA Safety Briefing though and please correct me if I'm wrong but couldn't this be a Case to use the "Special VFR" rules?  I just haven't heard anybody mention it and listening to the safety brief this sounds almost like the exact scenario given.  Thanks

Special VFR is very limited.  It's restricted to within only a few miles of an airport, and that airport needs to have at least Class E airspace to the surface.

[RADIOMAN015]

Let me caveat my naivety but saying I'm not a pilot.  I recently attended an AOPA Safety Briefing though and please correct me if I'm wrong but couldn't this be a Case to use the "Special VFR" rules?  I just haven't heard anybody mention it and listening to the safety brief this sounds almost like the exact scenario given.  Thanks

Special VFR is very limited.  It's restricted to within only a few miles of an airport, and that airport needs to have at least Class E airspace to the surface.

I've monitored that being used by the local airport control tower with a local company's helicopter that has it's own helipad.  The chopper was relocating from the airport FBO (after fueling) and returning to the helipad and the clouds where pretty low.   IF I remember correctly the helo flew at less than 1,000 feet (but likely higher than 500 feet) MSL.
RM

[Stearmann4]

While I was doing some sensor development testing with Boeing last year,  I had to file IFR because the local WX was marginal to get to the target area but the WX was VMC at the target so the local approach folks let me file for an orbit using a fix-radial-distance off the nearest navaid effectively allowing me to create my own holding fix.

When the target area became VMC I just requested lower altitudes as conditions and radar coverage permitted. Once the "holding" was complete I proceeded back into IMC for a standard approach.

Pretty simple, but it require a land line call ahead of time to coordinate.

Mike-

[JeffDG]

I've monitored that being used by the local airport control tower with a local company's helicopter that has it's own helipad.  The chopper was relocating from the airport FBO (after fueling) and returning to the helipad and the clouds where pretty low.   IF I remember correctly the helo flew at less than 1,000 feet (but likely higher than 500 feet) MSL.
RM

SVFR does not absolve you of your rules with respect to minimum altitudes (1,000' AGL in congested areas/500 AGL), but it does let you operate "clear of clouds" instead of 500' below, which can be a huge difference.

Are rotorcraft restricted to the same minimum safe altitudes as airplanes?

[JeffDG]

While I was doing some sensor development testing with Boeing last year,  I had to file IFR because the local WX was marginal to get to the target area but the WX was VMC at the target so the local approach folks let me file for an orbit using a fix-radial-distance off the nearest navaid effectively allowing me to create my own holding fix.

When the target area became VMC I just requested lower altitudes as conditions and radar coverage permitted. Once the "holding" was complete I proceeded back into IMC for a standard approach.

Pretty simple, but it require a land line call ahead of time to coordinate.

Mike-

Did an IFR hold at a lat/long fix during a SAREX earlier this year while flying highbird.  I was the Observer on that flight, but I believe the pilot filed round-robin to the departure airport, via a lat/long fix and put in the remarks that we'd be holding for 3 hours there...got a "cleared as filed"

[Mark_Wheeler]

You can also file whats called a "Delay" It would look like this:

Departure Airport: KRAL
Arrival Airport: KRAL
PDZ V186 TANNR D2+15 V186 PDZ


The D2+15 means a delay of 2 hours and 15 minutes. You're allowed to stay within a certain distance of that fix (Don't remember exactly) at your assigned altitude for the time of the delay. Here is an example of how NASA does is: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/NASA801/history/20111003/1900Z/KEDW/KEDW

[c172drv]

I've been on a CAP mission flight that we did this basic thing.  We were IFR our of our destination and enroute.  We additionally wanted someone watching over us so we would get to our target areas that were VFR and needed to take photos we would suspend the IFR clearance and proceed VFR keeping our code in the transponder then climb back up and check in with them and proceed to the next location.  We did this several times and had no problems other than the first time trying to get the correct verbiage from the controller that he wanted to hear which was different that previous experiences a previous military pilot on-board had used.  Worked well and I'd use it again.

I do like the previous post system of filing the delay.


John

[Flying Pig]

^ Hmm, thats interesing.  That sounds exactly like what I am doing.  Filing IFR to a particular point, then needing to orbit for a while and then go on to another.  Now, it is important to know that I am not flying around routinely trying to follow cars in IFR but I occasionally need to do static photo flights or orbit a fixed location.
Good conversations.  Where I am, my tower and approach guys are pretty good at working with me on what I need.  If I know I am going to do something weird, I call land line first and get the verbage down so when I call up on ground we already know what the other expects.  Im also really good at telling MY people, "Nope.....no flying today gents.  Do it the old fashion way."

[JeffDG]

You can also file whats called a "Delay" It would look like this:

Departure Airport: KRAL
Arrival Airport: KRAL
PDZ V186 TANNR D2+15 V186 PDZ


The D2+15 means a delay of 2 hours and 15 minutes. You're allowed to stay within a certain distance of that fix (Don't remember exactly) at your assigned altitude for the time of the delay. Here is an example of how NASA does is: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/NASA801/history/20111003/1900Z/KEDW/KEDW

That's the term I was looking for, although, if I would suggest not doing such a long duration hold on an airway, as it blocks that airspace at that altitude for others.  Holding off airway, either with a radial/dme, a radial/radial fix, or a lat/long (depending on equipment) lets you get off the airway...

Although, the MORAs there really suck.

[Mark_Wheeler]

I was doing that as a quick and dirty show and tell. If say you wanted to do that with a highbird, do a Fixed radial distance off a VOR. If its a GPS Capable aircraft you can also just pick a lat long and park it right there.

Mark

[JeffDG]

I was doing that as a quick and dirty show and tell. If say you wanted to do that with a highbird, do a Fixed radial distance off a VOR. If its a GPS Capable aircraft you can also just pick a lat long and park it right there.

Mark

Or a cross radial off two VORs if you don't have DME