age and rank

[jimmydeanno]

And I hear that it's at a higher pay grade than Wing Commander!

To me, that only stregthens the argument for younger CAP Wing CCs...

[arajca]

Thanks for the votes of confidence, but I have already made my decision. I did not intend this thread to be about me.  I intended it to be a talk about the age of our officers. 

Can young officers make affective wing commanders

Should our Officer track take longer to complete?

Is it so easy to promote, or should there be delays in place?

1. As with any commander, it depends ALOT on the individual. Ideally, a wing commander should have served in a series of command and command staff positions before becoming wing commander - including at least a year as CoS or CV.
2. What is the average TIG for military officers? I'M NOT MAKING ANY ASSUPTIONS OR STATEMENTS ABOUT CAP OFFICERS BEING EQUAL TO MILITARY OFFICERS. If it takes an average of five years for a military officer to promote from Capt to Maj, CAP shouldn't be using three years.
3. There shouldn't be arbitrary delays built in. The TIG mentioned above has some basis other than someone decided "## years sounds good." As for being easy, I think that opens a WHOLE different can of worms.

[O-Rex]

Some wings are easier to run than others: CAWG TXWG and FLWG have Groups that are bigger than some wings-Those 'superwings' are a full-time job in themselves, so being retired or financially independent is a plus (I believe Bowling, our last successful Nat'l CC, was both.)

Nonetheless, there is something to be said for those seasoned CAP Officers who are a bit "crinkly of eye and gray of hair." 

Reason why we don't have twenty- or thirtysomething Wing-Kings is because at that age, most folks are pursuing careers, raising families, and generally keeping up with the Jones's-that takes up time.

The alternative? Well, do you really want a "wunderkind" Wing Commander who is 33, single, has no life outside of CAP and lives with his mom???

Many CAP members remind me of Baruka from Willy Wonka: "I want it NOW!"

Pace yourselves, folks: CAP membership is not a destination, but a journey: enjoy the ride....

[RiverAux]

The TIG mentioned above has some basis other than someone decided "## years sounds good."

Thats a pretty big assumption. 

[Ricochet13]

hmmm...so the President of the United States should be at least 35, but to run a CAP wing we should have rule they should be at least 40?!?!

Hummm . . . interesting observation.      

I would judge any wing commander based on at least two basic criteria.

1)  Do they have the requisite people, knowledge, leadership, etc. skills to insure that the wing can accomplish its missions.

2)  Do they have the requisite insights and abilities to act in the best interests of the people who volunteer their time to accomplish those missions.

Those skills may, or may not, come with age, but think they are important to possess regardless of age.

[Camas]

You've stated that a number of people have encouraged you to apply for the wing CC position.  Anyone receiving that kind of encouragement, regardless of age, has to be highly respected and that his or her efforts on behalf of the wing is recognized.  The age factor doesn't even come into play.  Whether it's you or any other young CAP officer this has to be a huge vote of confidence.

[flyguy06]

I am a former cadet and when I turned senior at age 21, I was automatically a 2 nd Lt. That was in 1989. I am not a Capt.

So, yes, I could probably have been a Lt Col by now at age 38, but I chose not too. First of all the pay is the same so it doesnt really matter to me that much. But more importantly, and the first responder was right. I believe CAP should mirror the military (The modern day military , please do not refernece WW2 and prior. Those were totally differant times)


It does seem kind of strange to me to see a 20 something year old Lt Col. It deosnt seem like real rank to me and I would find it odd to call him Colonel. Its just because I am used to one thing and for some people change is uncomfortable.

[flyguy06]

I am a former cadet and when I turned senior at age 21, I was automatically a 2 nd Lt. That was in 1989. I am not a Capt.

So, yes, I could probably have been a Lt Col by now at age 38, but I chose not too. First of all the pay is the same so it doesnt really matter to me that much. But more importantly, and the first responder was right. I believe CAP should mirror the military (The modern day military , please do not refernece WW2 and prior. Those were totally differant times)


It does seem kind of strange to me to see a 20 something year old Lt Col. It deosnt seem like real rank to me and I would find it odd to call him Colonel. Its just because I am used to one thing and for some people change is uncomfortable.

Ironic to this discussion, I put in for Maj tonight at our meeting.

[flyguy06]

Frankly I think the pros outweigh the cons.  I know someone pretty quick will throw out the typical ages of Military 0-6's.  And after some thought, I think that's a problem with the Military right now having a peacetime mentality about officer promotions during wartime.

Thats a debatable point. Some people like myself, who have spent time inthe sandox dont really equate the current situation with WW2 or Vietnam. I for one do not. SO, too me this isnt the same kiind of war time mentality that long ago wars had.

[SarDragon]

FYI, CAWG has a member who was a Lt Col at 31. He seems well qualified to be there.

[Eclipse]

You've stated that a number of people have encouraged you to apply for the wing CC position.  Anyone receiving that kind of encouragement, regardless of age, has to be highly respected and that his or her efforts on behalf of the wing is recognized.  The age factor doesn't even come into play.  Whether it's you or any other young CAP officer this has to be a huge vote of confidence.

I agree - throwing out the comparisons to similar RealMilitary® grades for a moment - 10 years of experience in just about any situation is plenty to be considered for key leadership positions (assuming you're engaged in a direction leading to leadership), that certainly holds true for similar organizations such as the BSA, ARC, and most corporate environments.

And for those who are concerned about seeing such a young face with eagles on the shoulder, don't worry - that first year will age him about 10 and set things right!   

[Cecil DP]

FYI, CAWG has a member who was a Lt Col at 31. He seems well qualified to be there.

PAWG had a Major who was 21. Can't recall his name, But he was appointed a Captain for having earned the Spaatz Award and than Major for taking command of a Group. 

[JCW0312]

hmmm...so the President of the United States should be at least 35, but to run a CAP wing we should have rule they should be at least 40?!?!

Hummm . . . interesting observation.      

I would judge any wing commander based on at least two basic criteria.

1)  Do they have the requisite people, knowledge, leadership, etc. skills to insure that the wing can accomplish its missions.

2)  Do they have the requisite insights and abilities to act in the best interests of the people who volunteer their time to accomplish those missions.

Those skills may, or may not, come with age, but think they are important to possess regardless of age.

I have to agree. Age shouldn't be a factor in this. Most members in their 20s or 30s will not have the skills, insight, etc to serve in that capacity, but if they do - no problem here.

[DeputyDog]

I was and am still a young Lt Col.  I was a former cadet but it really didn't matter as far as my promotion through the senior member ranks because I only had the Mitchell and the personnel officer at my squadron lost paperwork so the 6 months it would have taken me to earn 2d Lt was irrelevant when it came to "advanced promotion" due to the Mitchell...

I will be an "under 30" Lt Col next year. I am a former cadet as well, but didn't quite make it to Mitchell (I only made Doolittle because I "did little" during my last eight months or so as a cadet). I've been active for all but nine months as a senior member since I was 18.

You've already commanded a squadron, but what about a group?

Iowa does not utilize the group structure, as well as a fair share of the other wings. Being a wing commander of the Rhode Island, Iowa, Florida or Kansas wings requires four very different wing commanders.

To me, it depends more on the person's level of responsibility, maturity and ability to handle it than the age. I've had 50 year old senior members (who have the 20 year device on their Red Service Ribbon) who I couldn't trust to mail a simple report in when I provided them with a stamped, addressed envelope. Conversely, I've had 25 year old senior members in that same boat.

A few months ago, I had the opportunity to take the command of a geographically large (not personnel-wise) group. I had to turn it down, and subsequently stepped down from group staff as a result of my decision to continue on with my education (I'm going for my Ph.D). Some people above me in the chain of command felt that I could do it, but I knew I didn't have the ability to do it. Working 40 hours a week and working on my Ph.D would have made me a "paper" group commander.

Can young officers make affective wing commanders

I don't see why they could not, given it is the right person. What makes a wing commander effective? Is that dependent on age?

Should our Officer track take longer to complete?

Yes. I'm now looking forward to the possibility of having 40 or 50 years time in grade as a Lt Col (I'm not "retiring" from CAP until I die).

Is it so easy to promote, or should there be delays in place?

It is very easy to promote. The delay could be as simple as requiring the completion of SOS in addition to RSC for Level IV.

[dwb]

Wow, Lt Col at 29!  And I thought I was moving quickly!

If you had the desire to be the Wing CC, and you thought you could bring something to the job, then I would say you should have applied.

Does age matter?  Sort of.  I know I wasn't as good at 22 or 23 as I thought I was.  I think there are things -- soft skills, people skills, temperment -- that come with age that can prepare you to be a better leader.

I also think, especially for someone who became a senior when they were young (18-25), that you should have several other types of assignments before becoming a corporate officer (Sq CC, Sq staff, Group/Wing staff, something in CP, something in ES, maybe a stint as Wing Chief of Staff or CV).  The more types of roles you serve in, the more facets of CAP you'll be exposed to, and the more well-rounded you'll be when you ultimately do take command.

[Stonewall]

15 calls per day in a major city? I hope you mean per truck. 

Just throwing numbers out there.  I have no clue what a busy fire station looks like...

Regularly scheduled program...

The good news is, you are only 29.  You could wait 10-11 years, then go for Wing King and still be a very young Wing Commander at age 40.  Where does CAP need a 30 year old?  Behind a desk full-time, signing paperwork?  Approving promotions?  Arguing with 70 year old former wing commanders?  No, a 30 year old should be leading squadrons of quality troops; where the rubber meets the road.  Making your mark where it really counts.  What would you do in 3 years after being Wing Commander?  Be region CC?  National?  Again, leave that for later in life. 

Like I said before, I'd say this to any 30 year old.  If you were to become Wing CC, I'd support you 100% and respect your decision through and through.  I'm just saying about the age thing, you've got plenty of time.

[isuhawkeye]

Guys,

this has been a great discussion. 

for those of you who want to know more about me.  I was a squadron CC, Ive been on staff at 3 encampments, and two national special activities.  I have served as wing Director of Emergency Services, and am currently working as the Homeland Security liason officer which requires me to interact with other Lt Col's at their level.  As much as we discount our rank system is is amazing to see just how highly these "Real" officers hold our rank.  Finally I am an IC level 1 with nearly 50 missions under my belt including one mission which could be classified as a type 1 mission under the FEMA system.

With that aside I have a question for you.

When we pick our wing commanders how do we look at those leaders.  Is it appropriate to take a 20 year Lt col who has plodded his way up the ranks, or a faster mover with a vision and a direction for the orgonisation

[tribalelder]

The Wing CC is probably nearly a full time job.  Your life needs to be in balance.

Someone young and bright and energetic may have the available energy to divert from non-CAP life to do the job well.  (ASSUMPTION-If married, your  spouse must FULLY supports your membership.)   Isuhawkeye has support from brother-members who are encouraging his application for Wing CC-peer confidence is a big endorsement.  GO FOR IT.

An alternative approach is a Wing CC who may have a a lower energy level but no longer needs to work for a living - someone who has raised his or her children, has a stable home life and is successfully retired or semi-retired.  Risk here is that you get a politician.  It's probably cheaper to 'run' for Wing CC than local sewer commissioner, and the Wing CC gets that snazzy suit.

[tribalelder]

Youthful enthusiasm and vision are needed. 

As our ELT missions (which I suspect are the biggest reason the USAF keeps us)  are now waning, CAP needs to figure out who our customers should be and what our products are for the next 20+ years.  Some new blood in our corporate leadership NOW is probably a good idea.

GO FOR IT.  If you don't try, the answer is already no.  That could mean us old fogeys win by default.

[Stonewall]

When we pick our wing commanders how do we look at those leaders.  Is it appropriate to take a 20 year Lt col who has plodded his way up the ranks, or a faster mover with a vision and a direction for the orgonisation

Neither.  The guy in between.

I was the latter.  I got promoted quickly because meeting the requirements for promotion was part of the PD program.  For me, it wasn't the rank, but the experience and knowledge I gained from attending courses and taking ECI-13, as well as RSC.  I feel that I needed those things to make me a better CAP member.  Just so happens, accomplishing those things put rank on my collar when the time came.

What we need is a manager with excellent leadership ability.  Someone who knows the ins and outs of running a corporation yet can still shoot the breeze with the line troops; get dirty and carry his weight.  Someone who will spend an equal amount of time focusing on the cadets as he/she does with operations.  AE is easy if you ask me, so that is irrelevant when it comes to picking a Wing King.  Physically, the CC should be a person of stature.  Someone who actually looks like they're a leader; in charge.  A professional image who doesn't get caught up in BS about flags on sleeves and saucer caps.  Someone who will absolutely be the buffer between their subordinates in the wing and anyone holding a position higher than wing who thinks they can step on some junior officer because they're at region or national.  Be a protector of their men!  

Don't bash a guy because he took 20 years to make Lt Col vs the guy who took 10.  The previous guy may have been a full-time student while in CAP and rightfully paid more attention to his school books than CAP.  Or was a parent of 2 or 3 kids and again, thought it to be more important to raise kids than earn rank in CAP.  I wouldn't say that 20 years is a "slow pace" to achieve Lt Col.  I would say, however, that 10 years is a bit fast.  And yes, I did the latter.

I'm not one of those guys who say "we're not the real military, our rank doesn't mean anything", it's our own rank, it's CAP rank.  We set the guidelines for how we promote, no the Army, Navy or whoever.  It's not like we're trying to be an Air Force Lt Col, we're a CAP Lt Col.  So I agree with you when you say those folks at HLS recognize and appreciate our rank.

If I were to select a Wing Commander, I'd look at a lot of things.  I mean, isn't like applying for a job?  A job that is, for the most part, being a CEO of a major company or organization?  You wouldn't hire a McDonald's manager to head a Health Insurance company, would you?

I'd look at education.  Civilian employment experience.  Military or public safety background.  Knowledge of aviation.  Can he talk the talk with a big whig from Cessna?  Can he hold his own at a formal dinner with the State Adjutant General of the National Guard?  Can he talk politics?  Can he operate a DF?  What's his criminal background?  Is he a speeder?  What about him personally?  Did he convert his POV into some Ghost Busters response vehicle with lights, sirens, and decals?  What is his track record in CAP?  Sure, he promoted to Lt Col in 10 years but what other significant contributions to CAP has he made?  How did he run a squadron?  Was it thriving and active compared to others?  Did they just do ES or were the equally balanced?

Just some random stuff I'd want to know about someone applying for Wing King.  Time for my meds.