Enlisted Basic Airman for New Adult Members

[JAFO78]

How about this idea for the adults in CAP. Because of so many folks are hung up on the college requirement. Why don't we just have the adults go through the cadet program. Start at the bottom as a "Enlisted Basic Airman" and work your way up. When you get as high as you can you take the Carl T. Spaatz test to make full bird Colonial, just like the cadets. Those who get to this rank then can be Wing Commander or higher.

There could be an option set up were if the adult does not want to go through the "Enlisted" program they could get the "Flight Officer Rank", but they still would have to go through the same training to make Officer, but they could never get higher than say Captain.

When you get to the point were you can become a 2LT you go to OTS type training. This could include the level 1, and SLS. The adults would go through the cadet protection as part of their incoming processing. You get my drift.

I was always concerned that the cadet training was different then the Adults, but we were to lead them as we had their training. The adults could wear insignia the same as the cadets or modify it to be along the lines of the Air Force but replace the star or center emblem with the tri prop, maybe a red or gold prop. That way those who want to move up can,  those who don't want to can stay were they are.   

This could be a faze in program say those who are officers now keep their rank as is, but any new incoming members say as of Dec. 1st 200? Come in as Enlisted Basic Airman, or Flight Officer.

Another thing is if people suffer burn out and want to drop out for a year or to they can. They just freeze their rank. When they come back they just attend a refresher course put on by wing to cover any reg. changes made since they froze. They could be charged say $50.00 half to wing half to NHQ to keep their records as is.

So folks what do you think. I for one would go through the Enlisted program, and work my way up.

[Jolt]

So you're saying... make everyone a cadet?

And what college requirement?

[JAFO78]

You missed my point the Adults or Seniors would start out as an Enlisted much like the cadets but you are not a cadet.

The reason I stated this is too many are hung up on a college degree. You start at the bottom as an Senior enlisted basic airman. The kids start out as Cadet basic airman.

Kids are cadets, adults are Seniors, but start out as an Basic Airman just like the Air Force.

I hope this clears it up for you.

[shorning]

Rob, how does this differ from the plethora of other programs discussed ad nauseum in other threads?  We have something like 10 threads that discuss revamping the structure.  This sounds like the same deal.  What is so broken that we need to redo the entire program?

[flyguy06]

And what about those of us that are former cadets?

The cadet program and the senior member program are SUPPOSED to be differant. Two differant objectives.

[JAFO78]

If you are already in CAP your safe.

Of course I am talking about Joe and Jane Public who don't know anything about CAP. They come in as a basic airman and work their way up just as the Armed Forces do. If you do not want to go through the BASIC program, then you start as a FLIGHT OFFICER and you are limited to no higher than Capt. If you come in as a BASIC then you can work your up all the way too the top. But to get Wing Commander or Higher you have to take the Spaatz Test just like the Cadets.

You can't become a Wing King unless you started out as a basic, and go through the program. But the big guys at NHQ can over ride this requirement if they think someone who came in as a Flight Officer as what it takes to become Wing, Regional or National Commander.

So course the cadet program would be modified for adults, taking PT out.

[MIKE]

Airman Basic - AB 

[RiverAux]

I think there is some merit in this idea.  Obviously it would take quite a bit of adaptation to make it work for seniors but I don't see any reason why the AE and Leadership portions of the cadet programs couldn't also be used by the seniors. 

[Guardrail]

So course the cadet program would be modified for adults, taking PT out.

Why take PT out?  I know there are some senior members who are physically unable to do PT no matter what, but why not institute PT for those seniors who can participate?  It would be a positive step in the right direction in making us more professional and more in line with the Air Force.

[JAFO78]

I think there is some merit in this idea.  Obviously it would take quite a bit of adaptation to make it work for seniors but I don't see any reason why the AE and Leadership portions of the cadet programs couldn't also be used by the seniors. 

Yes, this what I am talking about. How can we as adults (seniors or officers) teach the cadets when we don't have any of their training.  This has always been an issue to me, but not sure about anyone else. I know dealing with cadets doesn't happen with a senior squadron, as much as a cadet or composite. But I think this is also a change that should be made.

[JAFO78]

So course the cadet program would be modified for adults, taking PT out.

Why take PT out?  I know there are some senior members who are physically unable to do PT no matter what, but why not institute PT for those seniors who can participate?  It would be a positive step in the right direction in making us more professional and more in line with the Air Force.

Yes this could happen. If you can do PT of course do it. If you can't then something else could be put in place of it. Something could be worked out.

[Guardrail]

I like Maj Kachenmeister's idea of making grades Airman Basic thru Senior Airman available to seniors, but leaving the NCO grades open only to former/current military NCOs. 

Under this plan, senior members who choose not to become officers or who would rather perform duties such as driving cadets around and 'grunt work' could be junior airmen in CAP and help free up 'squadron clutter space' caused by officers who are either doing work junior airmen should be doing, or don't have any job at all. 

[shorning]

So we keep saying we want to be closer to the Air Force.  Some Air Force folks already raise their eyebrows when they see an 80yo 2nd Lt.  I wonder what they would think of an 80yo SrA.  While all these programs a quite fanciful and everyone thinks they have "the" answer, I don't think we've adequately define the problem...if there even is one.

[Major Carrales]

While all these programs a quite fanciful and everyone thinks they have "the" answer, I don't think we've adequately define the problem...if there even is one.

A agree.  I was discussing this issue with the Deputy Commander of our squadron on the way back from the DSAR (we went to Victoria, Texas from Corpus).  He is a long time CAP member and former Marine.  After I described several of the major plans discussed here with him he told me it all sounded like a waste of time.

His point was this, we just finished a sucessful exercise (weather prevented flying) in UDF and COMM.  Everyone did their job professionally and accomplished their tasks.  It didn't matter that the staging area point of contact was a CAPT and the trainees were Majors.  Those ranks are symbols of personal achievements through CAP and ,while he was proud of being a major in CAP and would not have it any other way, the greater good would be served best by debating other issues.

The problem is not in creating a new system, that would be expensive and somewhat a waste of energy, but rather improving what we have. 

He finished up the discussion by saying, when was the last time a mission failed because someone's rank was the issue?

Comments?

[DNall]

Rob, how does this differ from the plethora of other programs discussed ad nauseum in other threads?  We have something like 10 threads that discuss revamping the structure.  This sounds like the same deal.  What is so broken that we need to redo the entire program?

Sir, with respect, CAP is losing the majority of it's ES missions to tech advances, the refusal to comply with NIMS resource typing. It's not merely a matter of going along with a program we are required to follow. Those requirements include a wildland firefighter PFT, & stiff initial & ongoing training requirements that will require total devotion to a single specialty by those individuals. The time requirements will prevent serving in any other ES specialty or in any other capacity in the Sq. Now, the change over is going to have a dramatic effect on retention, & will take time. For now CAP is studying how to add the GES level training of NIMS to our program, not the specialty qualifications that are required to be called to a mission.

The troubles in our ES field in combination with a perceived lower value for external AE - lowered need of public education to attain budget goals; and a cadet program that's experienced problems & is overall quite small. Take these factors in combination, plus a general buzz of investigations, and dissatisfaction in Congress with the way the 2000 changes have been only partially implemented & not as they'd envisioned, and that the changes have not had the desired effect... you quickly reach a critical point where words like obsolete start to make sense. That fact is CAP must evolve dramatically or die like SAC did when their mission changed. My view as you'll see in many of those other thread is that we have to evolve in a direction that justifies continued affiliation with & funding by the AF. Beyond that, you're talking about what new mission roles might we be able to help with & what do we need to look like to be given that opportunity.


Now as to this idea. The objective of the cadet program is to make a pool of fired up young people with leadership experience & a heightened interest in aviation, so that a chunk will go AF, another chunk to other services, and the rest'll have some life skills. Cadets may be involved in ES as an additional activity, but it is not why they are in CAP & cannot take precedent over progression & participation in the cadet program.

That's not the objective we have for adults. Nor does the cadet program prepare you for the things required of seniors as they progress in leadership & responsibility.

[shorning]

Sir, with respect, CAP is losing the majority of it's ES missions to tech advances

Which has absolutely nothing to do with revamping the senior program.  As of my last post, we weren't talking about ES.  ES is only part of what CAP does.  If we're going to "fix" the program, it has to cover all aspects of CAP, not just ES.

There are soooo many threads that interweave the same subjects, I don't think anyone has a clear picture what they are discussing any more.  I still don't think we've adequately define the problem if there is one.  To me it sounds like change for the sake of change (which we bash when NHQ seems to do it), or us trying to be the "Air Force" without actually being in the Air Force.  Everyone seems to make CAP into something it's not.  I ask, why?

[DNall]

Because there's a fair degree of writing on the wall that what CAP has been is dying & we have to make some fundamental systemic changes to be able to evolve into something that can continue to live - ie be relevant enough to justify continued support at the current level in the AF budget. I realize ES is one aspect of what we do. There are problems in other areas, as there always are, and there are some very good things about CAP also. The issue is that this massive shift in ES (for which we have a set timetable), causes the bad to outweigh the good in a dramatic & rapid way. As soon as that happens we're fighting for our life with some serious budget sharks in the water that don't like us to start with, and weakened defenders some of whom are disheartened that their changes in 2000 haven't worked out very well. That's a dangerous place I really don't want to be in, or if I have to go there I want to go with some ammunition - like significant progress on transformation to something the AF needs. Even if we all get aboard with one plan right now & spend all our time working that transformation, I don't think there's enough time to get changed enough to avoid some kind of fight. The further along we are though the easier it's going to be to win that. Losing means no more CAP, either the quick version or the long one, but one way or another.

[BillB]

I agree with DNall on CAP needs to change. The missions need to be defined and training along those lines needs to be intensified. But one reason the AF wants CAP is the cadet program, and there we are showing smaller numbers every year. Cadets say they lose interest in the training programs. I showed cadets from three different Wings the 1949 cadet training manuals (they can be found on eBay regularly) and they were amazed. They said the training for cadets during that period, and up to 1964, was much more in depth, and written for a more mature cadet corp. One cadet even suggested that cadets try to buy enough of the manuals on eBay to have a whole squadron use them.
Perhaps that's part of the problems with cadet retention, the cadet program is geared to the 11 and 12 year olds exclusively, and written for that age group. The manuals are ideal for Middle School program, but as cadets get older the material presented has no interest to 25-18 year olds.
And where are the training manuals for seniors? That is one item that is very much needed to train senior members in the basics of CAP, the military, and their duty assignments. Online open book testing is fine, but there needs to be manuals prepared so classes can be held prior to testing. Just sitting there with the regulations open in front of you while you test produces no lasting results. Several Wings have produced manulas over the years to train senior members in various aspects of CAP. What is needed is a Nationally produced set of manuals for the various missions of CAP to increase the awareness of seniors to the duties of a CAP Officer, and the missions of CAP.

[RiverAux]

the refusal to comply with NIMS

We're going to be.  Don't worry about this part. 

[JohnKachenmeister]

Dennis:

It sounds like you have got a very clear vision of the proposed enlisted program for CAP.  It is much clearer than my vision of the future.  Perhaps the Atlantic fog has obscured my vision, but that clear Texas air gives you a great view.

Let me see if I can read by Braille, here.

New members have a choice:  Officer or enlisted.  Actually 3, they could come in as "Cadet Sponsor" enlisted, the Soccer Moms, and voluntarily limit themselves to SrA, but have very reduced (level 1/CPPT only, at the unit) training requirements.

Normal enlisted would have a period of orientation, basic training, perhaps a weekend or so, along with some home study.  Eventually they would select one of the yet-to-be-designated enlisted specialties, and get qualified in it.  Then they would advance through the NCO ranks as they progress in a yet-to-be-designed NCO development program, and gain experience.

Applicants with college and/or pilot's licenses would, at their option, attend OTS and receive officer rank.  They would then progress through a re-designed, more challenging PD program for their promotions.

Do I got it?