message to military folks that work with cadets

[Ned]

I think flyguy is absolutely correct with his remarks about the E-6 issue.
I'm discouraged that many of the replies in this thread "shot the messenger" rather than putting any serious thought toward the problem that flyguy tried to bring to our attention.

(. . .)   

You may conclude I'm more than a little passionate about this issue. 
Because when I see this I know it's a squadron that's denying their cadets the full-value of the CAP Cadet Program.  The seniors in the squadron are so busy trying to redefine CAP/USAF standards that they shortchange their cadets. 

JMHO, 

Phil,

Prepare to be discouraged again.

While I may have wrongly assumed that the original poster publicly "corrected" the cadet, I suspect your passionate slippery slope argument about squadrons going to hell in a handbasket because of a single question and answer is equally misguided.

It all started with a fairly simple inquiry.  A senior asked a cadet a question.  The cadet responded with a perfectly understandable answer that instantly communicated the requested information. 

Was it a doctrinally perfect answer cut-and-pasted from the 52-16?  No, but the question didn't call for such a thing.  For anyone to pronounce such an answer as "wrong" requires additional context not provided, or is simply hypertechnical.

At this point, anyone who has never addressed a lieutenant as "L-T," described an Army MSG as "three-up-and-three-down," or referred to an NCO as "Sarge" may take the cadet to task.  Others may be somewhat hypocritical.

Communication is effective and efficient if it can be readily and easily understood.

It was.

[ZigZag911]

Except a cadet isn't an "E" anything.

[Ned]

Except a cadet isn't an "E" anything.

Thanks for helping me make the point.  Successful communication is all about context. 

Your simple statement "Except a cadet isn't an 'E' anything," is either true or false outside a given context.

Example:  the dictionary on my desk says "enlisted" means "of or related to a rank below an officer or warrant officer."  I'm, sure you'd agree that the grade of Cadet Technical Sergeant is below that of any officer or warrant officer.  So, assuming that we agree that "E" is short for enlisted, then the cadet correctly described that he held the sixth grade of the cadet enlisted series (as defined by the dictionary.)  Normally when someone uses a word correctly (IOW, as defined by a mainstream dictionary) they are not "Wrong."

Example:  Some cadets are indeed "enlisted" in the sense that they have entered into contracts of enlistment with the Armed Forces.  I was such a cadet.  It is also worth remembering that most cadets are in organizations other than the CAP.

(There are other examples, but I hope you take my point.)

IOW, your statement "Except that a cadet isn't an 'E' anything," can be either true or false -- right or wrong -- depending on the context.

Tying this back to the original post, a senior (who apparently is an armed forces member on AD) asked a cadet about their grade.  The cadet responded in a way that was familiar and easily understandable to the senior.  Unless you think that the cadet was actually trying to fool an AD service member into thinking that the cadet was a USAF Technical Sergeant.  But that of course is a foolish interpretation of the answer.

The only real puzzle is why we are still talking about a relatively simple (and successful) exchange between the cadet NCO and a senior.

[Chappie]

Except a cadet isn't an "E" anything.

The only real puzzle is why we are still talking about a relatively simple (and successful) exchange between the cadet NCO and a senior.

Was it from Proverbs or was it something from Ben Franklin or was it my late grandmother that said something about "making a mountain out of a molehill"?

[DNall]

Except a cadet isn't an "E" anything.

The only real puzzle is why we are still talking about a relatively simple (and successful) exchange between the cadet NCO and a senior.

Was it from Proverbs or was it something from Ben Franklin or was it my late grandmother that said something about "making a mountain out of a molehill"?

You know what percentage of our time as cadet programs officers is spent un-training incorrect behaviors? You know how much harder that is than teaching them right & to standard in the first place? Last month I saw a cadet officer wearing GT & solo badges in side by side format on blues. DnC/CnC is bad. NCO skills are real bad. Officer development is understandablly horrible (cause adults don't have much experience w/ it on that level). Our wing had to institute a centralized training program some years back to standardize cadets at varrious levels to a minimal basic skill set that just isn't ever reached in many Sqs.

I know this discussion is silly, but it springs from a legit issue the gentleman seeks to remind us of, and that's very valid.

[ZigZag911]

Except a cadet isn't an "E" anything.

Thanks for helping me make the point.  Successful communication is all about context. 

Your simple statement "Except a cadet isn't an 'E' anything," is either true or false outside a given context.

Example:  the dictionary on my desk says "enlisted" means "of or related to a rank below an officer or warrant officer."  I'm, sure you'd agree that the grade of Cadet Technical Sergeant is below that of any officer or warrant officer.  So, assuming that we agree that "E" is short for enlisted, then the cadet correctly described that he held the sixth grade of the cadet enlisted series (as defined by the dictionary.)  Normally when someone uses a word correctly (IOW, as defined by a mainstream dictionary) they are not "Wrong."

Example:  Some cadets are indeed "enlisted" in the sense that they have entered into contracts of enlistment with the Armed Forces.  I was such a cadet.  It is also worth remembering that most cadets are in organizations other than the CAP.

(There are other examples, but I hope you take my point.)

IOW, your statement "Except that a cadet isn't an 'E' anything," can be either true or false -- right or wrong -- depending on the context.

Tying this back to the original post, a senior (who apparently is an armed forces member on AD) asked a cadet about their grade.  The cadet responded in a way that was familiar and easily understandable to the senior.  Unless you think that the cadet was actually trying to fool an AD service member into thinking that the cadet was a USAF Technical Sergeant.  But that of course is a foolish interpretation of the answer.

The only real puzzle is why we are still talking about a relatively simple (and successful) exchange between the cadet NCO and a senior.

Cadets (below cadet officer grades) are as much 'enlisted' as seniors are 'commissioned'.

We all "join" CAP, we don't 'enlist'.

Military personnel enlist.

Cadets are cadet airmen, cadet NCOs, or cadet officers.

I'll grant that it was used as a colloquial expression....either verbal shorthand, or an effort (certainly harmless!) by the cadet to impress the senior wit his knowledge of military jargon.

Still, we don't want to encourage the cadets to indulge in 'wannabe' activities, there are already too many senios ding so!

[Guardrail]

Still, we don't want to encourage the cadets to indulge in 'wannabe' activities, there are already too many senios ding so!

I think there are too many senios ding so too!

[Chappie]

I know this discussion is silly, but it springs from a legit issue the gentleman seeks to remind us of, and that's very valid.

Another instance of miscommunication:  Not minimizing the importance of cadets learning the right way....was just overwhelmed by the continued discussion of "is-is so". 

[flyguy06]

Except a cadet isn't an "E" anything.

The only real puzzle is why we are still talking about a relatively simple (and successful) exchange between the cadet NCO and a senior.

Was it from Proverbs or was it something from Ben Franklin or was it my late grandmother that said something about "making a mountain out of a molehill"?

God. I agree withthat sooooooo much.

Look, I am an Infantry guy. I keep things simple. Bottom line Cadets are not E anything. SO saying E-6 is an incorrect term. Its just that simple. I have no idea what Ned is talking about.

Ned, I am sure you are a great guy, but you are realy diggin too deep on this.You are trying to ratinalize something thats not there. The cadet wasnt saying E because he is enlisted. Ok, you are making much ado of nothing

[flyguy06]

Cadets are basically officer trainees. Ok, I have a perfect example. When I was ROTC in college, we held various leadership positions. One week, I may be a Platoon Sergeant, the next week, I may be a Company Commander, the next week, I may be a Squad member. Ok. At no time while held rank in the ROTC cadet program did I address myself as an "E" grade. I was a Staff Sergeant, then I was a Captain, then I was  Private. In any cadet program(CAP. ROTC, Sea cadets, whatever) , thats the proper title.

I hope this clears up this minor issue that I raised. 

[ZigZag911]

Still, we don't want to encourage the cadets to indulge in 'wannabe' activities, there are already too many senios ding so!

I think there are too many senios ding so too!

Gotta remember to use that SPEL ChEk feature!

[JohnKachenmeister]

I can't believe this has gone on for two pages.

I thought I was bad, but sometimes, guys, I DO get outside and see the sun.

If an offhand comment by a 15 year old trying to impress an adult generates this much drama, you ALL need to go out to the nearest bar, and have a few beers.  Maybe talk the barmaid into showing off her tattoos, or something.  Anything to bring a little perspective into your life!

[arajca]

John, you gotta keep in mind that many of us do this while abaysitting papers/computers/furnishings at the office.

[flyguy06]

I can't believe this has gone on for two pages.

I thought I was bad, but sometimes, guys, I DO get outside and see the sun.

If an offhand comment by a 15 year old trying to impress an adult generates this much drama, you ALL need to go out to the nearest bar, and have a few beers.  Maybe talk the barmaid into showing off her tattoos, or something.  Anything to bring a little perspective into your life!

I agreee

[Skyray]

Cadets are basically officer trainees. Ok, I have a perfect example. When I was ROTC in college, we held various leadership positions. One week, I may be a Platoon Sergeant, the next week, I may be a Company Commander, the next week, I may be a Squad member. Ok. At no time while held rank in the ROTC cadet program did I address myself as an "E" grade. I was a Staff Sergeant, then I was a Captain, then I was  Private. In any cadet program(CAP. ROTC, Sea cadets, whatever) , thats the proper title.

I hope this clears up this minor issue that I raised. 

That's funny, I was a midshipman in NROTC where the training was done by Marines, and I don't ever remember being anything but a "MAGGOT.

[Chappie]

I can't believe this has gone on for two pages.

I agreee

Waiting for this thread to come out in its Readers Digest condensed version