"Multiple" Awards - includes Non-CAP awards?

[Orville_third]

OK. CAP regulations prohibit a member from earning multiple awards for lifesaving for a single incident. However, there is the possibility of an outside agency giving you an award for said incident. For example, someone could conceivably earn the Gold or Silver Lifesaving Medal (The USCG awards it- but anyone can earn it) and a CAP Save ribbon (Or Bronze or Silver Medal of Valor). Or, you can conceivably save a Canadian and get a Canadian medal for bravery (A Coast Guard Rescue Swimmer just got named as the recipient of the Star of Courage) in addition to a CAP award. (And this does not include state or local, non-medal awards.)
So, does the aforementioned "multiple awards" include non-CAP awards?

For more info on the Lifesaving Medals:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lifesaving_Medal
For the USCG member who just got a Canadian award:
http://www.gg.ca/honours/search-recherche/honours-desc.asp?lang=e&TypeID=br&id=62016

[MIKE]

Odds are they would have to rewrite CAPR 39-3 to let JoeCAPMember wear a CG Lifesaving Medal... Maybe even for a military member if it's not listed in CAPM 39-1 or AFI 36-2903?

[Pylon]

The reg means multiple/repeat awards of the CAP Lifesaving Ribbon/Certificate.

[Orville_third]

Odds are they would have to rewrite CAPR 39-3 to let JoeCAPMember wear a CG Lifesaving Medal... Maybe even for a military member if it's not listed in CAPM 39-1 or AFI 36-2903?

Well, it is mentioned as being eligible for wear after any USAF medals on AFI 36-2093, (Note 3, p 127-128) along with medals from other federal agencies. The USAF requires the wearers of said ribbon to have earned them only while in military service. (It has been awarded to minors in the past, and even recently.) It's not technically USCG, given that it was originally awarded by the Treasury Department itself. In addition, it can be awarded to Civillians and members of other services. (Patton got one.) Lately, it's seldom awarded to other services due to the fact that if they save a life on duty, their service can legitimately award them said medal. (Off duty or on leave, they are eligible for this medal.)

[Pylon]

Odds are they would have to rewrite CAPR 39-3 to let JoeCAPMember wear a CG Lifesaving Medal... Maybe even for a military member if it's not listed in CAPM 39-1 or AFI 36-2903?

Well, it is mentioned as being eligible for wear after any USAF medals on AFI 36-2093, (Note 3, p 127-128) along with medals from other federal agencies. The USAF requires the wearers of said ribbon to have earned them only while in military service. (It has been awarded to minors in the past, and even recently.) It's not technically USCG, given that it was originally awarded by the Treasury Department itself. In addition, it can be awarded to Civillians and members of other services. (Patton got one.) Lately, it's seldom awarded to other services due to the fact that if they save a life on duty, their service can legitimately award them said medal. (Off duty or on leave, they are eligible for this medal.)

We've been down this road a million times.  CAPR 39-3 and CAPM 39-1 don't jive.  While one is silent on the subject, one specifically indicates that CAP members may only wear federal/military awards they've earned while serving in the Armed Forces.  In other words, if your local TAG awards some CAP members a military medal for rendering assistance to the government for a mission or something, or those CAP members in WWII who received an Air Medal, they would only be able to display it in their shadowboxes.  Those medals could not be worn on the CAP uniform according to the current set of regs.

The USCG Lifesaving Medal would also fall into this.  Even if the Air Force permits wear of it on the AF uniform, CAP specifies that you would have needed to have earned it while serving in the Armed Forces to be able to wear it in CAP.  If you earned it as a CAP member, you are not allowed to wear it.

[Hawk200]

OK. CAP regulations prohibit a member from earning multiple awards for lifesaving for a single incident. However, there is the possibility of an outside agency giving you an award for said incident. For example, someone could conceivably earn the Gold or Silver Lifesaving Medal (The USCG awards it- but anyone can earn it) and a CAP Save ribbon (Or Bronze or Silver Medal of Valor). Or, you can conceivably save a Canadian and get a Canadian medal for bravery (A Coast Guard Rescue Swimmer just got named as the recipient of the Star of Courage) in addition to a CAP award. (And this does not include state or local, non-medal awards.)
So, does the aforementioned "multiple awards" include non-CAP awards?

If you're asking if different agencies can make awards based on the same incident, sure they can. If Civil Air Patrol gives an award, they don't really have any place or authority to tell the Air Force, or the Coast Guard, or DOT that they're not allowed to give an award as well.

All in all, you'd look like a glory hound for doing it though. We have members on this board that remained quiet about their actions because they did what they felt was duty and recognition wasn't necessary.

As for Canadian decs, you could receive them, but it's sketchy as to whether or not you could wear it. 39-1 references Congressionally approved awards.

[RiverAux]

While one is silent on the subject, one specifically indicates that CAP members may only wear federal/military awards they've earned while serving in the Armed Forces.

Actually neither is silent.  The uniform manual says you could wear it if properly awarded and doesn't restrict it only to awards earned while in service. 

[Hawk200]

While one is silent on the subject, one specifically indicates that CAP members may only wear federal/military awards they've earned while serving in the Armed Forces.

Actually neither is silent.  The uniform manual says you could wear it if properly awarded and doesn't restrict it only to awards earned while in service.

As PHall put out, that's where the two pubs don't jive. 39-1 says you can wear them, 39-3 places conditions. 39-3 shouldn't be placing conditions, it should be addressing CAP ribbons, awards, and decorations. Don't know who wrote 39-3, but they strayed from the focus of the publication.

[RiverAux]

I sent some comments up the chain on this when the draft 39-3 was being reviewed so hopefully when it comes out it will match 39-1 (which I believe should be the ruling authority on this issue -- as it claims).

[Hawk200]

I sent some comments up the chain on this when the draft 39-3 was being reviewed so hopefully when it comes out it will match 39-1 (which I believe should be the ruling authority on this issue -- as it claims).

I hope it goes through. We shouldn't have any pub conflicting or making additions to any other pub.

Most people in CAP are told when they get a new ribbon. 39-1 shows them the order. I'm betting that most people that have been in CAP for 18 months or less don't even know about 39-3, although they probably know what 39-1 is, even though they might not have read it. Which is all the more reason why 39-1 needs to be kept up to date by including changes.

[JohnKachenmeister]

The restriction on multiple awards for a single incident is a restriction on CAP actions only.  As a commander, I would not put a member in for a Lifesaving Award AND a Bronze Medal of Valor, even if the heroic act involved saving a life.  I would decide which was the appropriate award, and put him in for only one.

I do not think CAP regs allow for interim awards like the military.  I have never seen such a reg, anyway, and I have never seen an interim award made.

There is NO restriction on the military, civilian government agencies, or foreign governments awarding an additional award to a CAP member for an act already honored by a CAP award.  You can debate whether or not one can wear it.  I would wear such an award, if earned.  And if one of the Uniform Nazis did not like it, he would have to have his proctologist recover his well-worn copy of 39-1!   

[flyboy53]

First of all, it would really be unlikely that there would be two awards for the same action because the nominating authority would not want to risk denial/rejection of the submission on just such grounds. Second, Canadian military medals are awarded to the American military and are generally recognized by the Air Force for wear on the Air Force uniform. Such medals -- and sometimes badges -- have been awarded since World War II. As for non-military medals, like the Livesaving Award and NASA medals, there is a space reserved somewhere between good conduct medals and unit awards. Finally, a request up the channels to NHQ would generally eliminate such a question because NHQ uses Air Force policy as criteria.

[Hawk200]

Second, Canadian military medals are awarded to the American military and are generally recognized by the Air Force for wear on the Air Force uniform.

Would like to see a reference on this. The nature of the award would be an issue to look at. Reading the current AFI, the Air Force is rather restrictive on what they allow to be worn or even accepted.

As to foreign badges, the AFI only allows wear when in that foreign country according to the current AFI, dated Jun 2001. If there's a more current one, I can't find it.

Finally, a request up the channels to NHQ would generally eliminate such a question because NHQ uses Air Force policy as criteria.

Not sure I totally agree with this. CAP still does a few things it's own way, and there is plenty of "We're not the Air Force!" sentiment on this board. I could see some National staff having the same opinion.

Second, the Air Force can be rather restrictive on even allowing other service badges on it's uniforms. They are normally only permitted while functioning with that other service, and are required to be removed upon reassignment from a qualifying assignment.

I still think it's an old carryover that hasn't been updated when it comes to CAP allowing other service badges on it's blues. Personally, I think they should be permitted (some badges not included), but I think it's an accident that they're permitted, rather than by design.

[Orville_third]

I do agree with an earlier post that it would be overkill under most circumstances to wear multiple medals for the same thing. That said, it may be appropriate to wear them under certain circumstances, like, say IACE.

[Pylon]

I do agree with an earlier post that it would be overkill under most circumstances to wear multiple medals for the same thing. That said, it may be appropriate to wear them under certain circumstances, like, say IACE.

Besides the fact that I see absolutely no connection, there are no uniforms worn on IACE.  Just polo shirts, aviator shirts and blazers.  And not the aviation and blazer combos you're thinking of.  No ribbons, no grade/rank insignia, not even your normal nameplates.

[flyboy53]

Would like to see a reference on this. The nature of the award would be an issue to look at. Reading the current AFI, the Air Force is rather restrictive on what they allow to be worn or even accepted.


Hey Hawk, Next time reac AFI 36-2803, Chapter 7, para 7.3....it's in there regarding foreign decorations. The limitations are on unit awards and service/campaign medals.

[Hawk200]

Hey Hawk, Next time reac AFI 36-2803, Chapter 7, para 7.3....it's in there regarding foreign decorations. The limitations are on unit awards and service/campaign medals.

Reading further, I can see the point on decorations. However, the criteria on badges as I stated previously is according to that AFI.

I do think that some type of official publication needs to be referenced concerning Civil Air Patrol using Air Force criteria for policy. There are more than a few things that CAP does differently even when it comes to uniform policy.

There are items that the Air Force authorizes, but Civil Air Patrol does not. Civilian awards and state decorations being a couple. Yes, Civil Air Patrol should follow Air Force policy, but it's not always the case. To be honest, I disagree with some of CAP policies, but compliance is not an option.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Civil Air Patrol allows state decorations?

[Hawk200]

Civil Air Patrol allows state decorations?

No, John. Read it again. The Air Force allows them on the uniform, Civil Air Patrol did at one time (I'd have to dig out actual hardcopies to say when), but does not any longer. I was pointing out that CAP and Air Force policy don't always mirror.

Officially, Civil Air Patrol pubs do not permit civilian medals, although "you know who" said they could be worn after some CAP members that were Federal employees received some. I think that was about a year and a half ago.

[citizensoldier]

Civil Air Patrol allows state decorations?

No, John. Read it again. The Air Force allows them on the uniform, Civil Air Patrol did at one time (I'd have to dig out actual hardcopies to say when), but does not any longer. I was pointing out that CAP and Air Force policy don't always mirror.

Officially, Civil Air Patrol pubs do not permit civilian medals, although "you know who" said they could be worn after some CAP members that were Federal employees received some. I think that was about a year and a half ago.

So, does this include state military ribbons from the National Guard?

CS