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Drill Screw Ups

Started by chickenjoe, February 24, 2011, 04:46:55 AM

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chickenjoe

Ok everyone at some time epicly screwed up in drill so now is your chance to tell everyone. I will start it off

When right face was called I would turn left every time
---- Have A Good One
Semper Vigilans   
                          
                             

kmbarnes1

We play a game called "KnockOut" at my squadron. If you mess up, you're out. Last one standing wins.
My CC or his First Sgt usually call out the commands. The two ways I always knock cadets out:
1. Shout any command when I have not called the flight to my command.
2. Shout "Order Arms" when cadets are at attention.

We do this every other week, I always get cadets out this way. You would think they would learn after I've been doing it for > 6mths.
Kurt Barnes, 1st Lt, CAP
Assistant Deputy Commander of Cadets
Information Technology Officer
Coastal Charleston Composite Squadron (MER-SC-056)

jimmydeanno

Quote from: kmbarnes11. Shout any command when I have not called the flight to my command.

What is this?  I just looked through the entire D&C manual, all 1250 instances of the word "command" found in it and didn't see anything about calling "By My Command" to change who is in charge of the flight.

There is this:

Quote from: AFI 36-2203 2.6
2.6. Mass Commands:

2.6.1. Mass commands help develop confidence, self-reliance, assertiveness, and enthusiasm by making
the individual recall, give, and execute the proper commands. Mass commands are usually confined to
simple movements with short preparatory commands and commands of execution executed
simultaneously by all elements of a unit.

2.6.2. Each person is required to give commands in unison with others as if that person alone were
giving commands to the entire element. The volume of the combined voices encourages every person to
perform the movement with snap and precision.

2.6.3. When the instructor wants to conduct drill by mass commands, the command is  AT YOUR
COMMAND.
For each exercise and cadence drill, the instructor announces the movement to be
executed and commands the element  COMMAND. Personnel then give the commands and execute
them in unison.

2.6.4. The following are examples of mass commands:

Instructor: AT YOUR COMMAND, Call the Flight to Attention, COMMAND.
Mass: Flight, ATTENTION.
Instructor:Have the Flight Stand at Parade Rest, COMMAND.
Mass: Parade, REST.
Instructor:March the Flight Forward, COMMAND.
Mass: Forward, MARCH.
Instructor:Halt the Flight, COMMAND.
Mass: Flight, HALT.
2.6.5. When desiring to end mass commands, the instructor commands AT MY COMMAND.
If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill

HGjunkie

Quote from: kmbarnes1 on February 24, 2011, 06:02:31 AM

1. Shout any command when I have not called the flight to my command.


It doesn't exist. Drill myth. Vapor-command. I used to do that, then found out it was out of regs.

http://www.cadetstuff.org/archives/000031.html#000031
••• retired
2d Lt USAF

Hill CAP

Quote from: HGjunkie on February 24, 2011, 11:55:43 PM
Quote from: kmbarnes1 on February 24, 2011, 06:02:31 AM

1. Shout any command when I have not called the flight to my command.


It doesn't exist. Drill myth. Vapor-command. I used to do that, then found out it was out of regs.

http://www.cadetstuff.org/archives/000031.html#000031

While this is a myth it is commonly used within Middle East Region. Never said it was correct just being from MER I have seen this used a lot.
Justin T. Adkinson
Former C/1st Lt and SM Capt
Extended Hiatus Statues

Майор Хаткевич

Which just means it needs to be stamped out.

Ed Bos

Why shouldn't it be added to the drill manual? It's commonly used (I recall instructors at Basic Training using this) and it serves a purpose.

What's stopping CAP from add this common and useful "command" to our rulebook?
EDWARD A. BOS, Lt Col, CAP
Email: edward.bos(at)orwgcap.org
PCR-OR-001

davidsinn

Quote from: Ed Bos on February 27, 2011, 10:27:30 PM
Why shouldn't it be added to the drill manual? It's commonly used (I recall instructors at Basic Training using this) and it serves a purpose.

What's stopping CAP from add this common and useful "command" to our rulebook?

Because we use the AF manual as is with no changes. You should not be handing command of a flight back and forth. It just screws with the airmen in flight.
Former CAP Captain
David Sinn

Ed Bos

Quote from: davidsinn on February 27, 2011, 10:43:20 PM

Because we use the AF manual as is with no changes. You should not be handing command of a flight back and forth. It just screws with the airmen in flight.

I understand and agree that we use the AFM primarily, however I respectfully submit that we do have our own internal guidance.

From CAPR 52-4, National Cadet Competition:

"3-4. STANDARD DRILL.
a.   Only drill movements contained in the CAP Drill and Ceremonies Manual will be used for Standard Drill." (emphasis mine)

And as another discussion point... the "By My Command" announcement is neither a preparatory command, nor a command of execution, but rather an announcement to the formation. It's to declare to the formation who the boss is at that time, and to inform the formation if the boss changes.

Additional thoughts?
EDWARD A. BOS, Lt Col, CAP
Email: edward.bos(at)orwgcap.org
PCR-OR-001

NIN

#9
[EDIT: NVM, I just went back and re-read the thread and my comment was completely superfluous.. -NIN]
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
I have no responsibilities whatsoever
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2024 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Ed Bos

Sure.

In my hypothetical situation, a Cadet Flight Commander is leading her flight in drill at a meeting. This cadet's mother calls the squadron while this is going on and tells the Squadron Commander that our Flight Commander must return home.

Another cadet is asked to inform the Flight Commander of the situation:

C/1st Lt Smith: "Flight Halt. At Ease."

C/CMSgt Snuffy: "Excuse me, Ma'am. Your mother called and will be here to pick you up in a few minutes. Capt. Johnson took the call and can give you more details. I'm here to finish this drill lesson."

C/1st Lt Smith: "Thank you, the flight is yours."

*Salutes are exchanged"

C/CMSgt Snuffy: "Flight, By My Command, Attention."

...And so the lesson continues...

You see here, this transaction isn't a drill movement, per se. Rather, it's changing who'd running the flight.
EDWARD A. BOS, Lt Col, CAP
Email: edward.bos(at)orwgcap.org
PCR-OR-001

Ed Bos

Quote from: NIN on February 28, 2011, 12:22:28 AM
[EDIT: NVM, I just went back and re-read the thread and my comment was completely superfluous.. -NIN]

Aww, I thought we were going to exchange some high level discussion on this s'more.  :D
EDWARD A. BOS, Lt Col, CAP
Email: edward.bos(at)orwgcap.org
PCR-OR-001

davidsinn

Quote from: Ed Bos on February 28, 2011, 12:30:28 AM
Sure.

In my hypothetical situation, a Cadet Flight Commander is leading her flight in drill at a meeting. This cadet's mother calls the squadron while this is going on and tells the Squadron Commander that our Flight Commander must return home.

Another cadet is asked to inform the Flight Commander of the situation:

C/1st Lt Smith: "Flight Halt. At Ease."

C/CMSgt Snuffy: "Excuse me, Ma'am. Your mother called and will be here to pick you up in a few minutes. Capt. Johnson took the call and can give you more details. I'm here to finish this drill lesson."

C/1st Lt Smith: "Thank you, the flight is yours."

*Salutes are exchanged"

C/CMSgt Snuffy: "Flight, By My Command, Attention."

...And so the lesson continues...

You see here, this transaction isn't a drill movement, per se. Rather, it's changing who'd running the flight.

Isn't it enough that the Sgt starts giving orders? It should be obvious to everyone that the commander has left and the person now giving commands is in charge.
Former CAP Captain
David Sinn

Ed Bos

Even if it is enough (though it may not always be enough) the phrase "By My Command" gets the information to everyone at the same time. That doesn't hurt the formation, especially when I'm in it... I'm frequently lost in my own head when I'm at ease or at parade rest. ;)
EDWARD A. BOS, Lt Col, CAP
Email: edward.bos(at)orwgcap.org
PCR-OR-001

NIN

Quote from: Ed Bos on February 28, 2011, 12:41:33 AM
Even if it is enough (though it may not always be enough) the phrase "By My Command" gets the information to everyone at the same time. That doesn't hurt the formation, especially when I'm in it... I'm frequently lost in my own head when I'm at ease or at parade rest. ;)

The Air Force stands in formation? Since when? :)

Seriously, though, the Army has no similar command.

The guy standing outside the formation barking a command is considered to have the requisite authority to issue said command, so you'd just better execute it.

Can you see this exchange?

C/CMSgt Snuffy: "Flight, ATTENTION!"
Flight does not move.
C/CMSgt Snuffy: "I said, Flight, ATTENTION!"
Flight still does not move.
C/TSgt HighSpeed (1st element leader): "Chief, you didn't say 'By My Command..'"
C/CMSgt Snuffy: "Uh, is there anybody _ELSE_ out here issuing commands?  A rogue NCO attempting to march cadets off a cliff? No? THEN YOU'D BETTER FOLLOW THE COMMANDS I ISSUE, RIGHT NOW."

Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
I have no responsibilities whatsoever
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2024 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Ed Bos

@NIN: Almost never.

And touche, I concede that not following the orders of Chief Snuffy in that situation would certainly earn a flight some creative snarkiness and withering looks.
EDWARD A. BOS, Lt Col, CAP
Email: edward.bos(at)orwgcap.org
PCR-OR-001

commando1

Quote from: kmbarnes1 on February 24, 2011, 06:02:31 AM
1. Shout any command when I have not called the flight to my command.
This command is widely used and accepted in SER also. In fact I have seen C/Col's use this command at my wing encampment. So whether or not it is actually a command or not, it is widely used. My favorite command was when the cadets were saluting I'd call "Ready, Front!" 9 times out of 10 it would work. Or at half-left face call a column movement and sit back and watch the confusion.  >:D
Non Timebo Mala

chickenjoe

How about this one guys " Present Arms"   " Order Fries " lol
---- Have A Good One
Semper Vigilans   
                          
                             

HGjunkie

Quote from: chickenjoe on February 28, 2011, 04:30:13 PM
How about this one guys " Present Arms"   " Order Fries " lol

Present Arms!
Order Armies!
••• retired
2d Lt USAF

BillB

Try this one.

Double to the rear, by the right flank, left flank, double to the rear   March

Since each movement ends on the wrong foot for the next movement, you'll still find cadets trying to do the movement ending in a flight going six different directions.
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104