Army ACUs as a CAP uniform

[0]

This discussion has got me to wodern, how is Col White and his team coming with the New M39-1? 

[BigMojo]

I have seen no difference in the way "I'm treated" because of the BBDU. I have and wear both. In fact on a recent REDCAP, the media came up to me first and not my teammate, a Capt wearing BDU's.

The pattern has nothing to do with "approachability" or credibility. Actually, IMHO, the BDU may lead to less credibility...the public is not dumb. They see the Real Military(C) on the television every night, and no longer see the BDU, thus making us look a bit like posers.

Flame away, but I like the BBDU's or KBU Idea from a couple months ago. I'm not holding my breath for the ABU.

[citizensoldier]

I have seen no difference in the way "I'm treated" because of the BBDU. I have and wear both. In fact on a recent REDCAP, the media came up to me first and not my teammate, a Capt wearing BDU's.

The pattern has nothing to do with "approachability" or credibility. Actually, IMHO, the BDU may lead to less credibility...the public is not dumb. They see the Real Military(C) on the television every night, and no longer see the BDU, thus making us look a bit like posers.

Flame away, but I like the BBDU's or KBU Idea from a couple months ago. I'm not holding my breath for the ABU.

The uniform is less important than the actions of those who wear it.  For all intents and purposes my old Pickle Suit from the 80's would still do me fine if it still fit.  I have worn BDU, DCU, and ACU.  Actions and competence say more than appearance ever will.

CS

[jimmydeanno]

The uniform is less important than the actions of those who wear it.  For all intents and purposes my old Pickle Suit from the 80's would still do me fine if it still fit.  I have worn BDU, DCU, and ACU.  Actions and competence say more than appearance ever will.

[sarcasm]Your competence level increased as the uniform changed, post hoc ergo propter hoc, the uniform can be attributed to your competence level[/sarcasm] 

[citizensoldier]

The uniform is less important than the actions of those who wear it.  For all intents and purposes my old Pickle Suit from the 80's would still do me fine if it still fit.  I have worn BDU, DCU, and ACU.  Actions and competence say more than appearance ever will.

[sarcasm]Your competence level increased as the uniform changed, post hoc ergo propter hoc, the uniform can be attributed to your competence level[/sarcasm] 

I just tend to observe actions and focus a bit less on what is said.  The uniform IS important but the credibility of the wearer is in the end more established by what is done while wearing it. 

[jacob]

A note on the sage (green) boots with the ABU: the desert tan boots (same as are worn with the ACU) are authorized for wear by the Air Force as well, and cheaper.  I have no information as to whether CAP is planning on allowing them as well.

[desertengineer1]

A note on the sage (green) boots with the ABU: the desert tan boots (same as are worn with the ACU) are authorized for wear by the Air Force as well, and cheaper.  I have no information as to whether CAP is planning on allowing them as well.

This is a good segway for me.  I think we're going to have goobs of BDU's come our way like the greens did in 1989.  There will be a huge pulse as people move to ABU's. 

You can still obtain BDU's from AAFES, and they can still order them for you if you speak to the manager on duty at the CSS.

My concern is with the boots, so my question to NHQ is this - Can you guys consider a change to allow us wear of the Green boots for now?  THAT supply is pretty much dried up.  Active duty aircrew here are being allowed to wear them with the flightsuit currently due to the shortage.

I think BDU's will be around for a while, but high abuse items like caps and boots are not.

[O-Rex]

A note on the sage (green) boots with the ABU: the desert tan boots (same as are worn with the ACU) are authorized for wear by the Air Force as well, and cheaper.  I have no information as to whether CAP is planning on allowing them as well.

Desert Tan Boots are an interim-thing until manufacturers spool-up an adequate supply of green ones. . .

Chances are that once we are auth'd to wear ABU's, there will be sufficient stocks of green boots.

I've seen alot of back & forth on this thread: funny, but if CAPTALK had been around 15-20 years ago, I daresay we would have seen the same comments about the transition from pickle-suits to BDU's.

Bear in mind that there is NO difference in functionality: you still have a four-pocket shirt and pants with cargo pockets.  The rest is just window-dressing....

Back to the ACU: I'm not hearing rave reviews from old-timers who remember when a set of BDU's worn regularly lasted a couple of years,  I hear that ACU's wear out relatively quickly.

I grew up with the BDU, from it's inception in 81-82, and remember the 'disco-collars," the side-tabs, and a few other bumps along the way.  I'll miss the BDU when it passes into history.

Patience my fashionistas: we'll get our shot in a few years, and I'm sure that many of your current BDU's, boots and accessories have plenty of mileage left in them: enjoy it!

[JayT]

Wow, this discussion was really productive.

Doesn't the term "Army Combat Uniform" give you at least two reasons that CAP would never, ever wear it?

[DNall]

For a CAP distinctive uniform the TRU in navy blue or OD makes some sense, as suggested by UK... but to wear an Army uniform when a similar Air Force uniform is available... And to wear a slightly different camo to skirt the AF smacks of the TPU debacle.

I would echo that. CAP is absolutely moving to ABUs in place of BDUs. That is unquestioned. CAP will always wear the same dress, flight, and utility uniforms as the AF (w/ CAP distinctive items per AFI & Air Staff approval). CAP does not have the option to do otherwise, nor would it serve our organization to create any more distance between us & regular airmen.

To the extent that makes us less than uniformed because members who do not meet ht/wt or grooming standards may not wear those items, per AFI. You have two choices. You can either exclude those individuals from membership and mandate AF-style uniforms (which ain't gonna happen), or you can suck it up & live with it. In the process of sucking it up, if you want to make the alternative uniforms not look like crap, that would be nice.

In my personal opinion...

1) The BBDUs look okay. OD would be fine in place of those, but there's no reason to change at this point.

2) ACUs are not an option for the many reasons stated, and I would not support it because it's harmful to the AF relationship that we depend on for survival, and would not be helpful in relations with guard & Army Reserve components that we need to have a good relationship with in our disaster response roles at the least.

3) I think it was absolutely retarded for each branch of service to develop dif camo patterns, and especially dif boots. That's the biggest travesty to tax-dollars I've seen in a military program, and there's a lot.

4) The Army plans to alter ACUs in the future, and eventually to move away from them. The velcro will be going away in the short term. In the longer term the pattern will be changed to something else. Most people are hoping for multi-cam, in woodland & desert patterns. The whole idea of ACUs was a short term uniform that would shrink the supply chain by only having to manage/issue one uniform pattern during this wartime period. The camo sucks for both woodland & desert enviros, as do many other aspects of the uniform in general. It will go away after we recover from this period of war, but that's not the top priority right now.

5) Velcro sucks. I won't bother with the tactical reasons since those don't apply. It's supposed to be cheaper since you only need one set of tapes/patches for 5 sets of uniforms. However, each tape/patch costs three to four times as much. And, they get lost. They fall off, stick to your buddy when you brush shoulders, or just get lost when you pull them off to wash the thing. It ends up costing soldiers - vanguard would be happy. Also, the velcro wears out with use. After a few mos to a year, it's shredded & doesn't stick any more. At that point you have to replace it or the uniform. Generally our uniforms are worn out by then & we don't bother replacing the velcro, but that would be a lot of sewing & maint for CAP members.

6) Also, I don't know about ABUs, but ACUs fade real bad over time, even when washed correctly, much worse than BDUs. The Army you can get away with field looking uniforms to a greater degree than the prim & proper AF that only wears those things to the office. It's not a good idea for CAP.

7) And just quickly on the visibility issue. BDUs/ACUs/ABUs/etc are not really very effective in hiding anyone. Very marginally at best, and BDUs are better at it than the newer stuff. The uniform is worn by ground combat troops, and does have a camo pattern for that reason, but it is not really a combat uniform (despite the names). It is actually a general utility uniform worn for all tasks where the service uniform (blues) would not be appropriate, and/or to create psychological solidarity to the troops downrange whom the CONUS troop is supporting. Likewise, it is worn by CAP as a general utility uniform for both circumstances where blues are not appropriate, AND to create solidarity with the airmen we are supporting so they can accomplish their tasks here & overseas. If you don't want to support our troops overseas, you're in the wrong org, and if you forget that's why CAP exists, then that's part of why we're wearing AF-style uniforms.

[blackrain]

Wow.....Great discussion. DNall I completely agree that it is an absolute waste of taxpayer money to have different pattern uniforms for each service. I have had the same discussion with friends in other services many times with pretty much universal agreement.

I hate velcro too. For both tactical and durability issues. I actually miss having everything sewn on.

The plus for the ACU I saw was availability and the ability to switch from Army use to CAP use just by changing the insignia.

Velcro or not...sew on or not......consistent types/patterns for uniforms AND for boots among services would be the best way to go IMHO.

[O-Rex]

Wow.....Great discussion. DNall I completely agree that it is an absolute waste of taxpayer money to have different pattern uniforms for each service. I have had the same discussion with friends in other services many times with pretty much universal agreement.

I hate velcro too. For both tactical and durability issues. I actually miss having everything sewn on.

The plus for the ACU I saw was availability and the ability to switch from Army use to CAP use just by changing the insignia.

Velcro or not...sew on or not......consistent types/patterns for uniforms AND for boots among services would be the best way to go IMHO.

1968: Each service has it's own style of fatigue uniform and boot, SecDef MacNamara says 'stop the insanity' and mandates one fatigue uniform and one boot for all. . . .

2008: DoD is a fashion free-for-all: waiting for DoD leadership to get it's collective head out if it's "fourth point of contact."

Velcro is a good Idea for unit patches: sew-on is a PITA when you PCS, but for rank, nametapes and branch?  First of all, the Army is the only service using the ACU, so why can't the uniform come with the 'U.S. Army' already sewn on?  Bring back sew-on specialty badges.  I don't understand the idea of subdued current pin-on badges for garrison-wear only: nowadays if you are not in garrison, you are wearing a vest of some sort  (flight, OTV, whatever) and nobody is going to see your blingage anyway so what's the big deal?  Velcro rank should be at the discretion of the wearer, like pin-on/sew on rank was for BDU's: velcro makes sense for trainees, particularly ROTC/USMA Cadets, and the like, but once you become an NCO or CPT and above, your ACU's will probably wear out before you are promoted.

I think the Army came up with the most practical uniform for combat-use: it was actually designed for soldiers by soldiers, but I think they banged it up with all the trimmings.  Just keep it simple. . .

A2CU's for flight crews: anybody know how those are working out?

ACU's for CAP? Ain't gonna happen: period

Off-subject, but did anyone see the reader backlash on the white Class B shirt in the Army Times?

[Sleepwalker]

  I hope we transition to the new Air Force ABUs as soon as we can!  My reason is that I see people on the streets all the time now wearing different parts of BDUS.  They are used by many people as "dirty jobs" work clothes.  I don't feel the BDUs hold the respect they once did because of it.  This past weekend I saw a Boy Scout Leader with the regular BS tan shirt and accompanyments while wearing BDU pants!  It looked rather rediculous, but it made me feel very self-conscious in my BDU uniform.  (This is just how I feel, and has no real 'intellectual' value to this thread).         

[JayT]

  I hope we transition to the new Air Force ABUs as soon as we can!  My reason is that I see people on the streets all the time now wearing different parts of BDUS.  They are used by many people as "dirty jobs" work clothes.  I don't feel the BDUs hold the respect they once did because of it.  This past weekend I saw a Boy Scout Leader with the regular BS tan shirt and accompanyments while wearing BDU pants!  It looked rather rediculous, but it made me feel very self-conscious in my BDU uniform.  (This is just how I feel, and has no real 'intellectual' value to this thread).         

Why do you care what 'respect' you're uniform has?

[notaNCO forever]

 It probably isn't going to take long for people to start wearing ACU's and BDU's for work cothes so thats not much of a reason. I do agree that BDU's have lost respect do to there misuse. On the discusion of CAP in ACU's there is really no reason for it we are the Airforce not Army auxiliary.

[davidsinn]

I used to paintball in ACU.

[DNall]

A2CUs are great. Covered in another thread somewhere, try the search button.

I used to paintball in ACU.

We did that at training. It stains.

[davidsinn]

A2CUs are great. Covered in another thread somewhere, try the search button.

I used to paintball in ACU.

We did that at training. It stains.

I wasn't worried about that. Believe it or not it was actually the best camo pattern for my preferred fields and that's why I got it.

[citizensoldier]

If all we are talking is our preference in uniforms, it would be my DCU's with the bottom pockets up on the arms.  For CAP purposes I am good to go in BDU's.  I am just glad I did not throw them out when they hit the Army wear out date.

[citizensoldier]

For a CAP distinctive uniform the TRU in navy blue or OD makes some sense, as suggested by UK...

This is what he's talking about here.

The more I think about this uniform set up, the more I like it.  I liked my OD fatigues in the 80's.  This would bring that look up to date.  Ah well won't happen.