What can Active Duty wear on there CAP uniform?

[DHollywood]

I don't think the Infantry would think its all that inequitable   

Its a "Spirit of the Bayonette" thing.....

Of course they wouldn't.  But they do have a lot more bling right off the bat than the rest of the Army.

Infantry isn't just an MOS, it's a way of life.

Plus, Engineers got the Sapper tab, Medics the EFMB.... 

True, but it sounds like Cav Scouts have all the same common tasks as the Infantry, but get nothing. And I somehow doubt that they don't consider Scouting as any less a lifestyle than Infantry. Especially considering that they work pretty close with them.

Lately, I've kinda taken the viewpoint that if everyone that has the same taskings does it, they should all be recognized, or  there shouldn't be any recognition. In class A's, Infantry is already set apart. An additional badge like the EIB doesn't really say anything all the more about them. At least it doesn't to me.

History has a lot to do with the rift between the Cavalry and the Infantry.

And the EIB does in fact set apart the best of the best of the Infantry.  The EIB requires superior performance and expert skill demonstrations far above that required for the average Infantry soldier.  As does the EFMB require the highest performance of combat medical soldiers.

Cav has their own badges of honor.  Stetson hats and spurs.  Earned, not issued.  And yes Cav units wear them in uniform. 

Its hard to understand if you are not a member of the fraternity of Infantry or Cav or any other combat arms profession.

To us it isnt bling.  And we don't much care if the POGs don't get it really.  And until you turn blue you wont get it....

[Hawk200]

I don't think the Infantry would think its all that inequitable   

Its a "Spirit of the Bayonette" thing.....

Of course they wouldn't.  But they do have a lot more bling right off the bat than the rest of the Army.

Infantry isn't just an MOS, it's a way of life.

Plus, Engineers got the Sapper tab, Medics the EFMB.... 

True, but it sounds like Cav Scouts have all the same common tasks as the Infantry, but get nothing. And I somehow doubt that they don't consider Scouting as any less a lifestyle than Infantry. Especially considering that they work pretty close with them.

Lately, I've kinda taken the viewpoint that if everyone that has the same taskings does it, they should all be recognized, or  there shouldn't be any recognition. In class A's, Infantry is already set apart. An additional badge like the EIB doesn't really say anything all the more about them. At least it doesn't to me.

History has a lot to do with the rift between the Cavalry and the Infantry.

And the EIB does in fact set apart the best of the best of the Infantry.  The EIB requires superior performance and expert skill demonstrations far above that required for the average Infantry soldier.  As does the EFMB require the highest performance of combat medical soldiers.

Cav has their own badges of honor.  Stetson hats and spurs.  Earned, not issued.  And yes Cav units wear them in uniform. 

Its hard to understand if you are not a member of the fraternity of Infantry or Cav or any other combat arms profession.

To us it isnt bling.  And we don't much care if the POGs don't get it really.  And until you turn blue you wont get it....

Hat's and spurs are definitely recognition. Just not overall authorized as the Infantry bling is.

It's not a hard to understand thing, it's just a lack of reference. What I don't understand is the superiority complex that many in some branches display. It seems to be even more escalated than a lot of interservice rivalry.

By the way, why are you part of an organization that you consider inferior to your old Army job? Noting some of your posts over the last few days, one might get the impression that you consider anyone other than Infantry as something worth less than your attention.

[Stonewall]

See,  I really don't care.  I tried and failed to earn the EIB.   

[DHollywood]

I don't think the Infantry would think its all that inequitable   

Its a "Spirit of the Bayonette" thing.....

Of course they wouldn't.  But they do have a lot more bling right off the bat than the rest of the Army.

Infantry isn't just an MOS, it's a way of life.

Plus, Engineers got the Sapper tab, Medics the EFMB.... 

True, but it sounds like Cav Scouts have all the same common tasks as the Infantry, but get nothing. And I somehow doubt that they don't consider Scouting as any less a lifestyle than Infantry. Especially considering that they work pretty close with them.

Lately, I've kinda taken the viewpoint that if everyone that has the same taskings does it, they should all be recognized, or  there shouldn't be any recognition. In class A's, Infantry is already set apart. An additional badge like the EIB doesn't really say anything all the more about them. At least it doesn't to me.

History has a lot to do with the rift between the Cavalry and the Infantry.

And the EIB does in fact set apart the best of the best of the Infantry.  The EIB requires superior performance and expert skill demonstrations far above that required for the average Infantry soldier.  As does the EFMB require the highest performance of combat medical soldiers.

Cav has their own badges of honor.  Stetson hats and spurs.  Earned, not issued.  And yes Cav units wear them in uniform. 

Its hard to understand if you are not a member of the fraternity of Infantry or Cav or any other combat arms profession.

To us it isnt bling.  And we don't much care if the POGs don't get it really.  And until you turn blue you wont get it....

Hat's and spurs are definitely recognition. Just not overall authorized as the Infantry bling is.

It's not a hard to understand thing, it's just a lack of reference. What I don't understand is the superiority complex that many in some branches display. It seems to be even more escalated than a lot of interservice rivalry.

By the way, why are you part of an organization that you consider inferior to your old Army job? Noting some of your posts over the last few days, one might get the impression that you consider anyone other than Infantry as something worth less than your attention.

By "don't get it" I mean "lack of reference point."  Same thing.

I never said anything about being superior or that CAP is inferior.  Those are YOUR words sir, not mine, and assume substantial facts not present in evidence.  If it were my intention to express superior position I would have simply stated so.

Yes, I will defend my Infantry heritage, my Army, and my brothers in arms.  Doing so in no way states an expression of superior position.  Correcting misinformation is part and parcel of the profession of arms.  Its part of the military.

What has happened here is a lot of non infantry people have been discussing the infantry, its awards, customs, etc.  By guessing and speculation.  By some (but not all) who were never there.

Jimmy Buffet said "don't try to describe the ocean if you've never seen it."

All I did was interject some fact and personal knowledge into the conversation. 

And Stonewall, Sir you showed up to test EIB wich is more than many do.  Failure would have been not testing at all.

[pixelwonk]

Providing information is fine, but if you boys intend on turning this into a peeing contest, take it to PM.

[mikeylikey]

Providing information is fine, but if you boys intend on turning this into a peeing contest, take it to PM.

Man, I would have liked to have been in that contest, but have had some prostate problems recently.

Anyway, Are there anything else we can't wear on our CAP uniforms?  Are civilian ribbons awarded for civilian service to the US GOVT allowed on the CAP uniform?  You know, like the Selective Service Civilian award ribbons??

[DHollywood]

 

[PaulR]

Anyway, Are there anything else we can't wear on our CAP uniforms?  Are civilian ribbons awarded for civilian service to the US GOVT allowed on the CAP uniform?  You know, like the Selective Service Civilian award ribbons??

That is a great question... I would love to know the answer to that one.  I would hope that they would be!  Many of those are far more difficult to earn than military awards!

[mikeylikey]

That they are.  I remember two months ago the AF made a HUGE deal out of three Civilian AF employees receiving some award and ribbon that had not been given out for like 6 years.

Civilian DOD awards and FEDERAL awards make more a difference to the career of a civilian than to the career of a military member.  It may be the basis for moving a civilian up a pay band or a step.

[jimmydeanno]

Yeah - I want to wear the DeCA employee of the month ribbon...

[JohnKachenmeister]

No reason to make skill badges for the POGs like the Air Force does....

POGs?

Person Other than Grunt - Grunt encompasses all combat arms generally.....  POG's dont beat feet in battle.  POG's are needed for sure, they just dont fight the fight on the line.

Dang, Hollywood, I like that!  I never heard that before, but its a great Unofficial Military Acronym (UMA). 

We just called them REMF's... Rear Echelon Mother (Redacted)

[AlphaSigOU]

[darn]... ya mean they won't let me wear this piece o' bling on my you-nee-form?!?!?!?



No one's died from my cooking... yet!

P.S. 500th post!

[Falshrmjgr]

I don't think the Infantry would think its all that inequitable   

Its a "Spirit of the Bayonette" thing.....

Of course they wouldn't.  But they do have a lot more bling right off the bat than the rest of the Army.

Infantry isn't just an MOS, it's a way of life.

Plus, Engineers got the Sapper tab, Medics the EFMB.... 

True, but it sounds like Cav Scouts have all the same common tasks as the Infantry, but get nothing. And I somehow doubt that they don't consider Scouting as any less a lifestyle than Infantry. Especially considering that they work pretty close with them.

Lately, I've kinda taken the viewpoint that if everyone that has the same taskings does it, they should all be recognized, or  there shouldn't be any recognition. In class A's, Infantry is already set apart. An additional badge like the EIB doesn't really say anything all the more about them. At least it doesn't to me.

History has a lot to do with the rift between the Cavalry and the Infantry.

And the EIB does in fact set apart the best of the best of the Infantry.  The EIB requires superior performance and expert skill demonstrations far above that required for the average Infantry soldier.  As does the EFMB require the highest performance of combat medical soldiers.

Cav has their own badges of honor.  Stetson hats and spurs.  Earned, not issued.  And yes Cav units wear them in uniform. 

Its hard to understand if you are not a member of the fraternity of Infantry or Cav or any other combat arms profession.

To us it isnt bling.  And we don't much care if the POGs don't get it really.  And until you turn blue you wont get it....

Hat's and spurs are definitely recognition. Just not overall authorized as the Infantry bling is.

It's not a hard to understand thing, it's just a lack of reference. What I don't understand is the superiority complex that many in some branches display. It seems to be even more escalated than a lot of interservice rivalry.

By the way, why are you part of an organization that you consider inferior to your old Army job? Noting some of your posts over the last few days, one might get the impression that you consider anyone other than Infantry as something worth less than your attention.

By "don't get it" I mean "lack of reference point."  Same thing.

I never said anything about being superior or that CAP is inferior.  Those are YOUR words sir, not mine, and assume substantial facts not present in evidence.  If it were my intention to express superior position I would have simply stated so.

Yes, I will defend my Infantry heritage, my Army, and my brothers in arms.  Doing so in no way states an expression of superior position.  Correcting misinformation is part and parcel of the profession of arms.  Its part of the military.

What has happened here is a lot of non infantry people have been discussing the infantry, its awards, customs, etc.  By guessing and speculation.  By some (but not all) who were never there.

Jimmy Buffet said "don't try to describe the ocean if you've never seen it."

All I did was interject some fact and personal knowledge into the conversation. 

And Stonewall, Sir you showed up to test EIB wich is more than many do.  Failure would have been not testing at all.

Well, hi all, new kid on the block here.  Just like to throw in my $.02

The evolution of the CIB/EIB dates back to WWII, and was conceived as a way to recognize the sacrifice of the Infantry Soldier.  (In fact, the EIB was originally a combat award.)

The point was this: the Infantry had a morale problem.  While sitting in foxholes, getting shot at, and generally treated like crud; the infantryman had nothing that said "Thank You."  Cord, Disks and EIB/CIB were the answer.

Now as was stated earlier, Cav Scouts were originally Infantry (However, I believe 11D was in fact Anti-Tank Infantry- Recoilless Rifle which became 11H Anti-Tank Infantry - TOW).  But Infantry Branch and Armor Branch got in a peeing contest.  The net result was Armor Branch wanted their own "Little Infantry" and did not want them corrupted by the Benning School for Boys.  So "Poof" you are no longer CMOS 11.  So if you can't earn an EIB/CIB, don't blame the grunts, blame the treadheads at Armor Branch that didn't like seeing the troopers wear a badge THEY couldn't earn.

So you see, the CIB & EIB are unique.  It is not merely the testing, it is the pre-requisite that you have lived the life of an infantryman.

/Jaeger out.
1LT, CAP
Former 1LT, IN, USA

[Dragoon]

.

Now as was stated earlier, Cav Scouts were originally Infantry (However, I believe 11D was in fact Anti-Tank Infantry- Recoilless Rifle which became 11H Anti-Tank Infantry - TOW).  But Infantry Branch and Armor Branch got in a peeing contest.  The net result was Armor Branch wanted their own "Little Infantry" and did not want them corrupted by the Benning School for Boys.  So "Poof" you are no longer CMOS 11.  So if you can't earn an EIB/CIB, don't blame the grunts, blame the treadheads at Armor Branch that didn't like seeing the troopers wear a badge THEY couldn't earn.

So you see, the CIB & EIB are unique.  It is not merely the testing, it is the pre-requisite that you have lived the life of an infantryman.

/Jaeger out.
1LT, CAP
Former 1LT, IN, USA

Do you have any facts to back up your assertion that this is all the fault of some Fort Knox guy with badge envy?  Sounds like a rather arrogant supposition...

[ddelaney103]

That they are.  I remember two months ago the AF made a HUGE deal out of three Civilian AF employees receiving some award and ribbon that had not been given out for like 6 years.

Civilian DOD awards and FEDERAL awards make more a difference to the career of a civilian than to the career of a military member.  It may be the basis for moving a civilian up a pay band or a step.

First, I've never seen a civilian medal make a difference for a person's promotion chances.  Many times people aren't put in for these awards, because they are considered not nearly as useful as a Quality Step Increase, cash award or time off bonus.

As to wear on the CAP uniform, my reading indicates no, with exceptions.

The AF says:

AFI36-2903 2 AUGUST 2006

Figure 4.1. Order of Precedence of Awards and Decorations.
44. United States Nonmilitary Decorations (See note 3.)

3. A few of the decorations awarded by federal agencies are: Medal of Merit, National Security
Medal, Presidential Medal of Freedom, Medal of Freedom, Gold and Silver Lifesaving Medals,
NASA Distinguished Service Medal, Public Health Service Decorations (Distinguished Service
Medal, Meritorious Service Medal, and Commendation Medal); US Maritime Service Decorations
(Distinguished Service Medal, Meritorious Service Medal, and Mariner's Medal). Do not
wear these decorations unless you wear US military decorations and service medals. If you wear more than one, arrange them in the order of acceptance. If you wear two or more from the same agency, that agency decides the precedence. Ribbons must be the same size as Air Force ribbons.  Wear only those decoration ribbons awarded by federal agencies and earned while in military service.

So, if you were a civilian at NASA or CIA, for example, and they gave you an award, you couldn't wear it.  You could wear it if you were there as your military duty assignment.

You could extend that to CAP using the "5-4. Military Service Awards. Military service ribbons may be worn on the CAP AF-style uniform provided they were awarded in writing by competent military authority." rule from 39-1.

Alternately, you could call Maxwell and try for the "Susie Parker said it's OK" option.

[gallagheria]

That reg makes no sense to me. I am from the Army world and we have numerous awards that civilians are eligible for. In the Army, our highest tab is the President's Hundred Tab (followed by the Special Forces, Ranger, and Sapper). The President's Hundred Tab is awarded by the National Rifle Association each year at Camp Perry. According to the Air Force reg you just cited, that would be unauthorized in the Air Force (not to mention the fact it is a tab) merely because it is a civilian award for which Army personnel can qualify. Unless they specifically earn it while in the Army, it would not be authorized.

Following that same logic, a cadet in ROTC who has not yet contracted, perhaps attending a senior military college, who goes to Jump School or Air Assault School would not be authorized that badge in CAP or in the Air Force if he switched over because it technically earned it while a civilian--prior to contracting.

Then you have the Purple Heart. Until the mid-1990's, civilians were eligible to receive the Purple Heart if they too were wounded--most likely in the case of government contractors or DoD civilians. So according to this reg, a person who received it as a civilian would be unauthorized it in the Air Force or CAP.

That should certainly be changed. 

[Falshrmjgr]

I didn't say badge envy...(That apparently came later)

So let me put it another way.  Can you explain why Armor Branch trains what are essentially infantrymen? 

I mean at this point it is rather moot, considering the 2005 BRAC Recommendation to move the Armor Center to Fort Benning and consolidate it and the Infantry Center into one organization.

Anyhow, I think the think that surprised me the most was the Sapper Tab.  I know Armor Branch has been pushing for an "Combat Cavalry Badge/Expert Cavalry Badge" since Vietnam at least.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unofficial_combat_badges_of_the_United_States_Army


Anyhow, the point being simply this:  We have knowingly duplicated effort, under the auspices of "Doctrinal Differences" in order to ensure that Armor Branch trained its Cav Scouts.  I say this as both a former 11H NCO, and as a former Infantry Officer.

You might find the following article interesting: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0PAB/is_3_113/ai_n6129836/pg_1  (From Armor Magazine no less)

BTW, I stand clarified.  11D was BOTH the predecessor to 19D and 11H.

In my experience, doctrinally we have so much overlap in the Recon Arena, that it is mind numbing.

Traditional Cavalry missions (as opposed to Armor missions) are Screen, Guard, and Cover.  (FM 17-95 http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/17-95/)

Screen is the classic Recon/Counter-Recon mission.  Provide Early Warning to the force, and Disrupt the enemy's ability to gain information on the main body.

Cover includes screen, but explicitly requires the denial of the enemy's reconnaissance.

Guard includes all of the above, plus engaging the enemies forces to prevent disruption of the main body.

None of these missions would constitute the Main Effort of any operation.

Now, here is the interesting part.  How are the skills required of the Skill Level 1-4 Soldier any different for these missions than for Infantry tasks such as ATTACK, DEFEND, or BLOCK?  The answer is that they aren't.  Yet this DOCTRINAL difference has been the compelling rationale for Armor Branch holding onto Cav Scout Training for decades.

Somehow, because the Cav mission is different, the training required to shoot TOW Table VIII or Bradley Gunnery, etc.  somehow should be under the aegis of Fort Knox?  I don't think so.

Further, time and time again, Cav units have been employed in non-doctrinal roles to close with and destroy the enemy, traditionally Infantry and Armor missions.  Dismount Cav Troopers in ACR's are NOT regularly used as scouts, but rather dismounted infantry.

Anyhow, I am sorry that my much shorter answer earlier was seen us an opinion unsupported by anything.  In fact, it is supported by both doctrine and history.

Do I think that Cav Scouts should be eligible for the CIB?  Yes.  But that is because they should be CMF 11.

[ddelaney103]

That reg makes no sense to me. I am from the Army world and we have numerous awards that civilians are eligible for. In the Army, our highest tab is the President's Hundred Tab (followed by the Special Forces, Ranger, and Sapper). The President's Hundred Tab is awarded by the National Rifle Association each year at Camp Perry. According to the Air Force reg you just cited, that would be unauthorized in the Air Force (not to mention the fact it is a tab) merely because it is a civilian award for which Army personnel can qualify. Unless they specifically earn it while in the Army, it would not be authorized.

Following that same logic, a cadet in ROTC who has not yet contracted, perhaps attending a senior military college, who goes to Jump School or Air Assault School would not be authorized that badge in CAP or in the Air Force if he switched over because it technically earned it while a civilian--prior to contracting.

Then you have the Purple Heart. Until the mid-1990's, civilians were eligible to receive the Purple Heart if they too were wounded--most likely in the case of government contractors or DoD civilians. So according to this reg, a person who received it as a civilian would be unauthorized it in the Air Force or CAP.

That should certainly be changed. 

None of your examples apply.

President's Hundred is a tab - which is never authorized by the Air Force except while assigned to an Army unit.

The wings and PH are military awards, so they are authorized because the reg is referring to civilian awards earned as a civilian, not military awards given to a civilian.  They couldn't wear the Defense of Freedom Medal, however.

AFAIK, civilians can still be given the PH but with the DoF available it's probably more difficult.

[Falshrmjgr]

That reg makes no sense to me. I am from the Army world and we have numerous awards that civilians are eligible for. In the Army, our highest tab is the President's Hundred Tab (followed by the Special Forces, Ranger, and Sapper). The President's Hundred Tab is awarded by the National Rifle Association each year at Camp Perry. According to the Air Force reg you just cited, that would be unauthorized in the Air Force (not to mention the fact it is a tab) merely because it is a civilian award for which Army personnel can qualify. Unless they specifically earn it while in the Army, it would not be authorized.

Following that same logic, a cadet in ROTC who has not yet contracted, perhaps attending a senior military college, who goes to Jump School or Air Assault School would not be authorized that badge in CAP or in the Air Force if he switched over because it technically earned it while a civilian--prior to contracting.

Then you have the Purple Heart. Until the mid-1990's, civilians were eligible to receive the Purple Heart if they too were wounded--most likely in the case of government contractors or DoD civilians. So according to this reg, a person who received it as a civilian would be unauthorized it in the Air Force or CAP.

That should certainly be changed. 

None of your examples apply.

President's Hundred is a tab - which is never authorized by the Air Force except while assigned to an Army unit.

The wings and PH are military awards, so they are authorized because the reg is referring to civilian awards earned as a civilian, not military awards given to a civilian.  They couldn't wear the Defense of Freedom Medal, however.

AFAIK, civilians can still be given the PH but with the DoF available it's probably more difficult.

Furthermore, ROTC Cadets have to be contracted when they attend jump school, which means they are members of the armed forces, with a rank of cadet, and subject to the UCMJ, and able to be placed on hazardous duty orders.

[gallagheria]

AFAIK, civilians can still be given the PH but with the DoF available it's probably more difficult.

No go. Federal law now prohibits civilians from receiving the Purple Heart. In 1997, Congress passed 10 USC 1311:

The decoration known as the Purple Heart (authorized to be awarded pursuant to Executive Order 11016) may only be awarded to a person who is a member of the armed forces at the time the person is killed or wounded under circumstances otherwise qualifying that person for award of the Purple Heart.

Further, you state:

Furthermore, ROTC Cadets have to be contracted when they attend jump school, which means they are members of the armed forces, with a rank of cadet, and subject to the UCMJ, and able to be placed on hazardous duty orders.

Just as Title 32 National Guard soldiers, ROTC cadets are exempt from the UCMJ, even contracted cadets. Only service academy cadets and midshipmen are subject to the UCMJ. 10 USC 802. As for Air Assault School, Jump School, LTC, and nearly every other ROTC eligible school, that too is a no-go. You are not required to be contracted to go to these schools. Any cadet, MS-I through MS-IV, is eligible.