Military award on CAP uniform etiquette

[ProdigalJim]

And that's the rub...you may be demonstrating knowledge of the regulations, but lack of knowledge (or caring) of USAF officer culture. If you're around USAF CGOs they are more likely to ping on that than that you are demonstrating proper wear of ribbons for cadets.

Not really a thread de-rail, but I guess a drift: my observation is that one of the main differences between CAP culture and USAF AD culture *might* be traceable to the differences between NCO culture and officer culture. My experience is that many senior CAP leaders came from the AD NCO cadre, and have carried with them NCO culture.

Not saying one is better than the other, just that they *are* different, and many of our SM officers seem to reflect that.

[Texas Raiders]

If you can wear your ribbons properly on your jackets, and badges etc properly on your shirt, you can likely wear your ribbons correctly on your shirt.

Right!  Wear your uniform properly, abide by the grooming standards, and take pride in your appearance.  You can't go wrong.  If you're a SM and you don't want to do that, then don't wear a uniform.

And that's the rub...you may be demonstrating knowledge of the regulations, but lack of knowledge (or caring) of USAF officer culture. If you're around USAF CGOs they are more likely to ping on that than that you are demonstrating proper wear of ribbons for cadets. We're a finicky lot and the vast majority have little knowledge about CAP. Some of the issues of performance and appearance is why, I would argue, a majority of USAF CGOs have a dim view of CAP senior members.

I can relate to this one.  A majority of active and reserve USCG personnel, including myself, had dim view of the USCGAUX for similar reasons.  Ignorance, plus the notion that they were just people out "playing coast guard" didn't help either.  I later learned how effective and helpful they actually are. 

I can see how a non-commission holding volunteer wearing your rank would make some people feel uncomfortable.

[Nuke52]

Hi.  Long-time lurker, first-time poster here...

If you can wear your ribbons properly on your jackets, and badges etc properly on your shirt, you can likely wear your ribbons correctly on your shirt. I think you are thinking the amount cadets care about you wearing your ribbons is much higher than it likely is.

+1
I hope (delude myself?) that the cadets at least care that we make the attempt to wear the same uniform as they wear and that we do it correctly, but whether we're wearing ribbons on the shirt or which ribbons or badges for that matter, I truly doubt they even notice, let alone care...

Part of the issue is also the tug-of-war between giving a more accurate culture of the USAF vs the very idea you describe. Culturally, in the USAF, so-called 'mustangs' will sometimes wear ribbons on their shirt but the majority of officers do not. I don't know when/where/how this cultural thing started. It's not written down anywhere but it just is that way.

And that's the rub...you may be demonstrating knowledge of the regulations, but lack of knowledge (or caring) of USAF officer culture. If you're around USAF CGOs they are more likely to ping on that than that you are demonstrating proper wear of ribbons for cadets. We're a finicky lot and the vast majority have little knowledge about CAP. Some of the issues of performance and appearance is why, I would argue, a majority of USAF CGOs have a dim view of CAP senior members.

+1/2 here...  I agree CAP sometimes has a little problem accurately portraying USAF culture since a good number of our members have either prior service in a different branch or no military service at all.  And I'm not saying that as a slight:  the folks we have, current AD AF vs. no-mil-service-ever and everything in between are good people doing their best to mentor our cadets, they just don't always have the most accurate sight picture on how things are in the "real" AF or what's really important and why.  For example, I know some senior members with an Army background who "instruct" cadets never to smile in photos.  Why?  "It's not military.  You have to be sharp/serious/whatever, and smiling in a picture is 'unprofessional'..."  Maybe that's true in the Army, idk--most people in Army official photos seem to be trying their hardest to supress any hint of personality or personableness and to look mean, I mean, serious--but that's simply not the case in the Air Force.  Same thing goes for the old guy who did his two years in the Navy in 1953 and tells the cadets the "military way" to call a floor is a 'deck' and "our squadron doesn't have a stairwell, it's a 'ladder!'", etc.  They're doing their best with their thrust, their vector's just a smidge off.  And I don't fault them for it, I'm glad to have them on the team and, as necessary, I gently help them adjust their fire.

That's where the half point deduction comes from.  Granted, I'm not a USAF CGO, so I can't authoritatively speak for them, but I would really hope that our eager, young, and "finicky" CGOs wouldn't be "pinging" on silly things like that.  (And perhaps your words were a bit stronger than you really mean them in order to make a rhetorical point, but...) someone with an AD officer background is hopefully focusing on the positive, (much) bigger picture (i.e., thank Goodness this other guy shows up to the meetings every week--and in uniform, too!--so that I don't have to do it all myself) rather than "taking a dim view" of CAP senior member officers because they're wearing on the blue shirt the ribbons they earned and are proud of. 

At most--if there absolutely had to be a negative reaction--I would hope that our young CGO would look at his non-AD CAP colleague and think TO HIMSELF, "Oh look at that, he's wearing his ribbons on his shirt.  How cute.  Oh yeah, and thank Goodness he's here!!"

FWIW, if/when asked, I tell my cadets and fellow seniors both what the reg says AND how it's really done in the AD AF by both our enlisted members and our officers.  The cadet officers who like to think of themselves as future AF Os may emulate the AF tradition, and those who aspire to enlist after high school, just like Dad/Mom, are likely to wear their ribbons proudly every week.  And it's all good because it's kosher with the reg and ALL cadets--even those with three diamonds--are still trainees in CAP, so it's good for them to see how it feels to try out different things (within the letter of the law, of course) and envision/live out their future a bit with no threat.  The black and white verbiage of the reg means more when viewed in light of the actual practices.

Just my $0.02.  Oh, and to all of you fellow SMs leading and mentoring our CAP youth (with or w/out your ribbons), THANKS for what you do!

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

We're a finicky lot and the vast majority have little knowledge about CAP. Some of the issues of performance and appearance is why, I would argue, a majority of USAF CGOs have a dim view of CAP senior members.

IF they know who we are at all...which is an inexcusable problem endemic throughout the USAF.  The newest E-1 at Lackland isn't even told who we are, so who owns the problem when said E-1 encounters a CAP officer and doesn't know what to do?  Or, even worse, the goofball MTI who told his charges that when they encounter CAP personnel to "ignore them?"  I got that from a comment on a thread on Air Force Times.  I really hope that goofball MTI is an isolated incident.

I can relate to this one.  A majority of active and reserve USCG personnel, including myself, had dim view of the USCGAUX for similar reasons.  Ignorance, plus the notion that they were just people out "playing coast guard" didn't help either.  I later learned how effective and helpful they actually are. 

I never once encountered this from the CG WIWACGAuxie.  I never got anything from the CG NCO's and officers I encountered but "thank you for helping out...you take a big load off our backs."

Contrast that to the "benign indifference" (at best) we get from the USAF, except at the CAP-USAF level.  All the hand-wringing about uniform colours, styles etc. doesn't have one bloody iota to do with that.  A dipstick CAP officer trolling for salutes from military personnel will do it no matter if s/he is wearing maroon, grey or blue epaulettes or hard rank.  It has to do with personalities, not insignia.  As I've said before, if an E-1 cannot read the letters "CAP" on a shoulder mark, regardless of colour, then we don't own the problem.

At best, the USAF looks at us as a source of warm bodies through the gates of Lackland (cadets), despite what the occasional "official" plaudit may say.

I can see how a non-commission holding volunteer wearing your rank would make some people feel uncomfortable.

A problem solvable through education.

[Texas Raiders]

We're a finicky lot and the vast majority have little knowledge about CAP. Some of the issues of performance and appearance is why, I would argue, a majority of USAF CGOs have a dim view of CAP senior members.

IF they know who we are at all...which is an inexcusable problem endemic throughout the USAF.  The newest E-1 at Lackland isn't even told who we are, so who owns the problem when said E-1 encounters a CAP officer and doesn't know what to do?  Or, even worse, the goofball MTI who told his charges that when they encounter CAP personnel to "ignore them?"  I got that from a comment on a thread on Air Force Times.  I really hope that goofball MTI is an isolated incident.

I can relate to this one.  A majority of active and reserve USCG personnel, including myself, had dim view of the USCGAUX for similar reasons.  Ignorance, plus the notion that they were just people out "playing coast guard" didn't help either.  I later learned how effective and helpful they actually are. 

I never once encountered this from the CG WIWACGAuxie.  I never got anything from the CG NCO's and officers I encountered but "thank you for helping out...you take a big load off our backs."

Contrast that to the "benign indifference" (at best) we get from the USAF, except at the CAP-USAF level.  All the hand-wringing about uniform colours, styles etc. doesn't have one bloody iota to do with that.  A dipstick CAP officer trolling for salutes from military personnel will do it no matter if s/he is wearing maroon, grey or blue epaulettes or hard rank.  It has to do with personalities, not insignia.  As I've said before, if an E-1 cannot read the letters "CAP" on a shoulder mark, regardless of colour, then we don't own the problem.

At best, the USAF looks at us as a source of warm bodies through the gates of Lackland (cadets), despite what the occasional "official" plaudit may say.

I can see how a non-commission holding volunteer wearing your rank would make some people feel uncomfortable.

A problem solvable through education.

Education seems to be the common thread in your comment.  I whole-heartedly agree too. 

As for the Coast Guard/ CGAUX notion that I mentioned........... that was specific to the Gulf coast of Texas about 15 years ago, where I was stationed at the time.  My education and personal experience/interraction with the CGAUX personnel while stationed at Station New London, CT changed that notion for me.

[LGM30GMCC]

That's where the half point deduction comes from.  Granted, I'm not a USAF CGO, so I can't authoritatively speak for them, but I would really hope that our eager, young, and "finicky" CGOs wouldn't be "pinging" on silly things like that.  (And perhaps your words were a bit stronger than you really mean them in order to make a rhetorical point, but...) someone with an AD officer background is hopefully focusing on the positive, (much) bigger picture (i.e., thank Goodness this other guy shows up to the meetings every week--and in uniform, too!--so that I don't have to do it all myself) rather than "taking a dim view" of CAP senior member officers because they're wearing on the blue shirt the ribbons they earned and are proud of. 

At most--if there absolutely had to be a negative reaction--I would hope that our young CGO would look at his non-AD CAP colleague and think TO HIMSELF, "Oh look at that, he's wearing his ribbons on his shirt.  How cute.  Oh yeah, and thank Goodness he's here!!"

FWIW, if/when asked, I tell my cadets and fellow seniors both what the reg says AND how it's really done in the AD AF by both our enlisted members and our officers.  The black and white verbiage of the reg means more when viewed in light of the actual practices.

Nuke,

I wish it were the way you hope it is, but...it isn't. There is a strong disconnect between the flag officer, field grade, and company grade officer perspectives. Much of this does lay heavily on the feet of the USAF and how it neglects us in its initial training. Some of this is simply fall out of limited training time and so much to be aware of. I suppose you could take some comfort that the National Guard and (to a lesser extent perhaps) reserves are also somewhat neglected. Even within the AD community some mission roles are also neglected, nukes are a perfect example of this. (There are quite a few USAF members who don't know that we have nuclear missiles still on alert still.) It would be nice if we got at least 5-10 minutes of training, maybe a page in an ROTC/AFA text book would be beneficial. Until that happens we will be largely unknown by the officer corps.

Now about how CGOs react to stuff, some of that is because a number of them haven't gotten out of the initial stuff yet. The majority of officers spend 4 years getting picked on for things like uniforms and those little detail things. For them at their level that stuff is a lot more important, or at least attention getting. Job wise they look at a very small slice of the AF pie and if it isn't directly related to their immediate job they may not see the importance of it. If we as CAP make a bad impression at this formative time in a CGO's career that image is going to stick with them for a long time, to the point they won't even know where it came from.

Field Grade Officers have started to really see the bigger picture. They may also have kids approaching cadet aged and they start to see all the cool things CAP does.  They aren't looking at it through the eyes of a 20 something freshly out of college. (Let's face it, many if not most of our squadrons are not exactly populated by the types of folks 20 somethings want to hang out with. This is a nationally recognized issue that we are bad about recruiting 20-30 somethings.) They may also start to see more things like well behaved cadets on tours, or interact with CAP for a NCSA or something along those lines. They see the value and tend to either be a little more excusing of the 'old war stories' (because they are either interested in them as a historical perspective, or at least have just grown more mature and enjoy the camraderie especially now that they have stories of their own they can relate with) and more inclined toward gentle vectoring. They have seen more of the big picture and generally prioritized mission accomplishment over looking pretty or being 'cool'. CAP starts to shine a bit better in this age bracket, though poorly acting CAP 'FGO's, or people who wear the rank but have little-to-no-experience acting like an officer can really sour their view. They have spent 10+ years earning their leaves and someone wearing them, or Lt Col rank and acting like a jack wagon is really going to lose credibility in a hurry.

O-6s and up are looking at even bigger picture things. They may also have to spend a lot more time worried about money. Here CAP can really start to shine and the volunteer spirit means more. These guys may not see the stupid things CAP does because they get briefed by the stars of CAP. If they do see the stupid they are used to seeing stupid in subordinate units, and may raise it with a wing commander or something and expect that the commander will get his people in line. They also have so many other things to worry about that as long as we are doing what we are supposed to be doing, and not hindering them, they likely don't care. Any benefits to their folks are also heightened as a way to improve their base, unit, or whatever. ('A powerful DDR program that serves the base kids effectively? Yes please I want that on my base!') And of course the 1st AF/CC, AETC/CC, NORTHCOM/CC all see us in that light of force multiplier. They may only know 1 or 2 members personally, but on paper CAP is doing fantastic things. (And we are doing fantastic things, and something like X% of our members couldn't wear a uniform to save their life, probably isn't in that report.)

Cyborg is at least partly correct. Additional education on the part of the USAF would be beneficial. However, if it is not backed up by our officers looking and more importantly ACTING like USAF officers (how we really act, not how people think we act) then we will always have these image problems. If you have an older, larger, fuzzier, whatever SM (the kind that sometimes draw the ire of even cadets) who is wearing their uniform properly, focused on the mission, and speaking like a modern AF officer (not talking about the good old days) they will be viewed as a peer. The uniform may look a little funny but they'll get past that. The uniform is an initial impression. The closer we look and act like the real deal, the more all that is ignored and the sooner you get to the meaty conversations that build positive relationships. Education is part of that, attitude is a much larger portion.

[NorCal21]

And that's the rub...you may be demonstrating knowledge of the regulations, but lack of knowledge (or caring) of USAF officer culture. If you're around USAF CGOs they are more likely to ping on that than that you are demonstrating proper wear of ribbons for cadets. We're a finicky lot and the vast majority have little knowledge about CAP. Some of the issues of performance and appearance is why, I would argue, a majority of USAF CGOs have a dim view of CAP senior members.

I would agree with you here. I think knowing the regulations is very important, but I think knowing the culture is as well. Just like every branch, and at every base or unit, there are things that are done that might skirt the regs because of a cultural history. In this case, its customary for AF officers to now wear their ribbons.

Besides, if a cadet cared then they should ask why a SM officer isn't wearing their ribbons. That would be an excellent opportunity to have a class on customs and courtesies don't you guys think?

[NorCal21]

And that's the rub...you may be demonstrating knowledge of the regulations, but lack of knowledge (or caring) of USAF officer culture. If you're around USAF CGOs they are more likely to ping on that than that you are demonstrating proper wear of ribbons for cadets.

Not really a thread de-rail, but I guess a drift: my observation is that one of the main differences between CAP culture and USAF AD culture *might* be traceable to the differences between NCO culture and officer culture. My experience is that many senior CAP leaders came from the AD NCO cadre, and have carried with them NCO culture.

Not saying one is better than the other, just that they *are* different, and many of our SM officers seem to reflect that.

That's a very interesting point. Never thought of it that way.

I have to say that CAP has its own culture as well. I would want to follow the regs first, CAP culture second and then AF culture third. That's my personal take on it of course, but at the same time... if I followed CAP culture I'd be in the polo shirt for nearly everything! Haha

[LGM30GMCC]

I'd say CAP culture is to disagree about this or that, sometimes vehemently, and eventually fall back on the regs.  Since we haven't really defined the custom ourselves my inclination is to lean toward the USAF culture more heavily in terms of uniform wear for some of the reasons I suggested. I have no problem with distinctive markers that are simple (grey slides, whatever. Personally I wish we could use dark blue again, but whatever). I think behavior wise we don't need to try to be distinctive.

The more we blend into the 'one-team' concept with AD/ANG/Res and to some extent non-uniformed Civ the better off our relationship would be. With the right cultural attitudes and behaviors I can see our squadron commanders being completely welcome/wanted at wing commander calls/meetings and just mixed in with the rest of the squadron commanders on a base. In essence, the more we become a part of a base (where there is one) rather than an outside group that meets on the base, the better off it is for both CAP and the USAF.

[Nuke52]

That's where the half point deduction comes from.  Granted, I'm not a USAF CGO, so I can't authoritatively speak for them, but I would really hope that our eager, young, and "finicky" CGOs wouldn't be "pinging" on silly things like that.  (And perhaps your words were a bit stronger than you really mean them in order to make a rhetorical point, but...) someone with an AD officer background is hopefully focusing on the positive, (much) bigger picture (i.e., thank Goodness this other guy shows up to the meetings every week--and in uniform, too!--so that I don't have to do it all myself) rather than "taking a dim view" of CAP senior member officers because they're wearing on the blue shirt the ribbons they earned and are proud of. 

At most--if there absolutely had to be a negative reaction--I would hope that our young CGO would look at his non-AD CAP colleague and think TO HIMSELF, "Oh look at that, he's wearing his ribbons on his shirt.  How cute.  Oh yeah, and thank Goodness he's here!!"

FWIW, if/when asked, I tell my cadets and fellow seniors both what the reg says AND how it's really done in the AD AF by both our enlisted members and our officers.  The black and white verbiage of the reg means more when viewed in light of the actual practices.

Nuke,

I wish it were the way you hope it is, but...it isn't. There is a strong disconnect between the flag officer, field grade, and company grade officer perspectives. Much of this does lay heavily on the feet of the USAF and how it neglects us in its initial training. Some of this is simply fall out of limited training time and so much to be aware of. I suppose you could take some comfort that the National Guard and (to a lesser extent perhaps) reserves are also somewhat neglected. Even within the AD community some mission roles are also neglected, nukes are a perfect example of this. (There are quite a few USAF members who don't know that we have nuclear missiles still on alert still.) It would be nice if we got at least 5-10 minutes of training, maybe a page in an ROTC/AFA text book would be beneficial. Until that happens we will be largely unknown by the officer corps.
...
[snip]

Minuteman,

I hear what you're saying and I think we're almost completely in agreement here, other than the fact that I failed to clearly express what I meant.  My bad. 

I was attempting to refer to an AD CGO who doubles as a CAP SM.  A young CAP SM/AF CGO who is nitpicking/looking down on his CAP co-workers for something silly like wearing their ribbons on their blues shirts is waaay off base.  He should simply be thrilled to death that his fellow CAP members were showing up to the meetings in uniform and helping so that he didn't have to do everything himself.  "Pinging" that they have the proper ribbons in the proper place on their shirts (as is allowed in the regs, though not AF custom) is beyond petty, and most likely counterproductive.

The one (minor) place I'm not 100% onboard with you regards what a CGO spends his first four years doing.  I can imagine life as a young missileer has its miserable moments--and I knew some missile guys who were hating life over my four long winters on the frozen ND tundra--but not once was I ever picked on for my uniform.  Okay, except that time I wore my sweater with my blues...  I prefer to call it a "bold choice" rather than a lack of masculinity, but I digress...  In any case, my point is that I would hope our CGOs have enough of a bigger picture than to worry too much about ribbons.

Having said that, I agree with you that formalized education of our AF brethren about who CAP is, what we do, who/what we're not, does AD have to salute us, etc., is important for us, would be helpful to all shades & grades of "Real Military (C)," and would certainly improve our relationship and synergies.  Trying to get that 15 minutes of training inserted into BMT or the commissioning sources is another story, unfortunately.  [Hey, that sounds like a great action item for our CAP-USAF folks to take up...]

Even more important than that, though, is that we walk the walk and not clown it up in front of our "Real Military" colleagues.  Members outside of established weight/grooming standards wearing AF-style uniforms, wearing sloppy/dirty/unserviceable uniforms, or those out trolling for salutes do immeasureable harm to our image.  BTW, as long as I'm on a roll (rant?), here's a pet peeve of mine I wish we could stop now:  CAP members who get saluted and then make a big fuss trying to explain how "we're not real military, we're only CAP, you don't have to salute us, etc."  It's embarrassing to us and it's embarrassing to the person you're trying to "correct."  Anyone reading this:  pleeeease, for the love of all things good, just properly return the salute and offer an appropriate greeting.  We're "on the team," let's act like it.

And I'm spent.

[LGM30GMCC]

Ah, yeah, if a AF CGO/CAP SM (where would I meet one of those..hmmm) is getting all bent out of shape about it, yeah that's an issue. I was referring to pure baseline AF CGO. A AF/CAP member should definitely take the opportunity to help inform other members about what the norms are and help folks meet 'em. I have no problem with folks that choose to wear either the AF blue or the G/Ws, as long as they are worn well pressed and whatnot. When it comes to blues though, I think there is some added (and fairly unwritten) onus on folks to reflect not only the regulation that governs the wear of AF Blues, but the officer culture that goes with them. That's why I encourage SM officers in blues to follow the custom and forgo the ribbons on the shirt.

By the time we're captains most CGOs seem to have their head screwed on a bit straight, but unfortunately not all do.

I definitely had some questions about my CAP uniform from my coworkers, but those who already knew me tended to ask questions, not be derisive, at least to my face. (Some ugly rumor mongering out there by some disgruntled people, but they didn't like me anyway.)

That being said, I was sitting in class and there was a relatively new Lt who was going on about how bad CAP was. Wannabe's losers, etc. Finally I interrupted him and started talking about what CAP was, and why things were the way they were. Uniforms were definitely a part of his rant and the image portrayed by members. Had I not been there his vitriol would have been the only message about CAP that probably another 6-7 CGOs around him would have.

I'm not saying Lts sit around griping about uniforms and whatnot. (We're generally not that bored. Girls, guns, and alcohol are far more common I would say) However, any deviation from the USAF uniform wear definitely gets picked up, if not vocalized.

Training wise I'm sure SDFs would want some time too. I really think there is simply a limited amount of time in training and how much would be retained is questionable.

And yeah, when it comes to the salute thing. We are 100% on the same page.

[Nuke52]

Ah, yeah, if a AF CGO/CAP SM (where would I meet one of those..hmmm) is getting all bent out of shape about it, yeah that's an issue. I was referring to pure baseline AF CGO. A AF/CAP member should definitely take the opportunity to help inform other members about what the norms are and help folks meet 'em. I have no problem with folks that choose to wear either the AF blue or the G/Ws, as long as they are worn well pressed and whatnot. When it comes to blues though, I think there is some added (and fairly unwritten) onus on folks to reflect not only the regulation that governs the wear of AF Blues, but the officer culture that goes with them. That's why I encourage SM officers in blues to follow the custom and forgo the ribbons on the shirt.

I'm with you, and that's part of what I'm getting at.  As CAP SMs, we should absolutely mentor our fellow SM officers in following AF officer culture, but most of the time, I'm just happy I've got someone helping me out at the meeting and that they're in an appropriate uniform.  Because it's not a uniform "discrepancy" and because they're probably pretty proud they get to show off their hard-earned hardware, I'll save the no-ribbons-on-blues chat for some other time when I think they're ready for it and it won't discourage them from coming.  On the other hand, if they or anyone else ask me why I'm not wearing any ribbons, I'll give them the spiel and take the opportunity to do some informal edumacation.

[Eclipse]

As CAP SMs, we should absolutely mentor our fellow SM officers in following AF officer culture,

CAP senior members should be mentored in Civil Air Patrol culture.

In most cases the path converge, but they are not always the same, nor should they be, and no insinuation that AF Culture trumps CAP's should ever be made.

I'd hazard that the majority of CAP members allowed to wear blues don't own a service coat and never will, and those who own one probably only wear it a few times a year, so the insinuation that ribbons should not be worn on the shirt leaves a significant number of members with no where to display them.

It's one thing to fully prescribe wear when uniforms are issued and garments are mandated, it's another when the member is footing the whole bill
and there is no consistency in who wears what.  An off-handed comment about it being "wrong" to wear ribbons on the shirt, when that is simply an opinion, may well kill the spirit of a member.  I've seen less do worse damage.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

That being said, I was sitting in class and there was a relatively new Lt who was going on about how bad CAP was. Wannabe's losers, etc. Finally I interrupted him and started talking about what CAP was, and why things were the way they were. Uniforms were definitely a part of his rant and the image portrayed by members. Had I not been there his vitriol would have been the only message about CAP that probably another 6-7 CGOs around him would have.

Did you find out where this lieutenant got his duff gen about CAP?  Usually it's a rumour from a friend-of-a-friend-of-an-NCO-that-a-CAP-member-tried-to-force-a-salute-from rather than direct experience

Training wise I'm sure SDFs would want some time too. I really think there is simply a limited amount of time in training and how much would be retained is questionable.

Maybe they would, but I only know of two (TX and CA) that have personnel wearing the AF uniform, and they wear it with even less changes than we do.  The most I've ever seen is a different nameplate, and sometimes state lapel brass, if that, but the AF gives them a pass.


CCM (CA) Charles W. Collier Jr., CA SMR

(Also, TX Air Wing wears ABU's)

Most of the SDF's wear Army uniforms, and to be fair they usually do have modifiers like their state initials instead of "U.S." on the lapels.

Ohio and New York have Naval units, and they're also very minimum-change.

The ironic thing is that the SDF's are not a direct part of the Air Force structure, except to provide support for the Air Guard units.  We are (AUXON/OFF be hanged), and I've seen SDF's wearing their uniform quite incorrectly.

Yes, there is a limited amount of time in training (BTDT years ago), but to replace yet another session of underwear folding or yelling at the latrine queen wouldn't take anything away from that.

[Nuke52]

As CAP SMs, we should absolutely mentor our fellow SM officers in following AF officer culture,

CAP senior members should be mentored in Civil Air Patrol culture.

Points well taken, Eclipse.  Agreed on all counts, and I stand corrected in that our SMs should be mentored in our CAP culture (which is at least somewhat based on our parent service AF/Army Air Corps culture).

I in no way intended to insinuate that AF culture should trump CAP culture where the two diverge, only that it is right and proper that (as per CAPP 151 & in my opinion) CAP follows its parent service's protocol and customs whenever appropriate.

I also stand by my comment that while I will not wear my ribbons on my blues shirt, that I am still overjoyed to have the presence and assistance of a fellow senior who does wear his.  I also agree with you that a SM who wants to show off his bling on his shirt has every right to do so, and that I would never tell him it is "wrong" because, of course, it isn't.  On the other hand, anyone who asks me why I don't wear mine will get my spiel on AF tradition.  They are free to do with that as they choose, and if they continue to show up every blues night wearing their ribbons, I fall back on what I said in my very first post here:  THANK GOODNESS they're here at the meeting serving CAP!

[Texas Raiders]

CAP senior members should be mentored in Civil Air Patrol culture.

In most cases the path converge, but they are not always the same, nor should they be, and no insinuation that AF Culture trumps CAP's should ever be made.

I'd hazard that the majority of CAP members allowed to wear blues don't own a service coat and never will, and those who own one probably only wear it a few times a year, so the insinuation that ribbons should not be worn on the shirt leaves a significant number of members with no where to display them.

It's one thing to fully prescribe wear when uniforms are issued and garments are mandated, it's another when the member is footing the whole bill
and there is no consistency in who wears what.  An off-handed comment about it being "wrong" to wear ribbons on the shirt, when that is simply an opinion, may well kill the spirit of a member.  I've seen less do worse damage.

:clap: :clap: Hear, hear! On target and tracking. :clap: :clap: 

As I said before, if you wear your uniform properly in accordance with the uniform regulations, you can't go wrong.  I wouldn't imagine that quoting culture as an excuse for being out of regs would be acceptable, especially during inspection.  When I was deployed for Operation Iraqi Freedom, many of us had our names and service embroidered in Arabic above our nametapes on our DCUs.  It was part of the culture over there, but wasn't in regs.  We all kept at least one blouse "clean" because of that and when we came home, those DCU blouses were never worn again.   

[Eclipse]

^ The textbook definition of field expediency.  A mission mandate dictated one action in the field, something else back at home.

Bet they look cool, too.

[Texas Raiders]

^ The textbook definition of field expediency.  A mission mandate dictated one action in the field, something else back at home.

Bet they look cool, too.

They do look cool.     However, the command did outlaw the "modification" to our DCUs about ten months into our year long deployment.  We were still allowed to wear the blouses that had the embroidery, but could not add it to any other items past that date.  The concern is that there was no effective way of knowing what exactly "Hadji" had written on your uniform.  For all we know, our last names were all "Infidel" or worse.

[docbiochem33]

All of the allowable active duty/ reserve comp. are in the regs.  If one is unsure check there.  I used to wear my combat patch because the AF allowed it and did not actually ban it or phase it out, they just omitted it from the new regs.  Because there was not a phase out or ban it was allowed and many of us in the wing would wear it.  Then we were told we couldn't and then they put the U.S. Flag in its place so that ended it.

I understand why some AD/ reserve members have a bad view of CAP.  Members walk around like they are real officers when they aren't and want salutes.  Others refuse to follow regs and salute AD/ Reserve officers.  CAP members walk around looking like they just pulled a uniform from the floor after being covered with 100 pounds of junk.  CAP members that also try to tell AD people how to do their jobs.  Sure I would take advice from a person in the civilian occupation I was in (medic/ corpsman), but I am not going to listen to a person with basic first aid/ cpr tell me how to do my job.

I think to prevent this, CAP needs to do a better job training new members.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I understand why some AD/ reserve members have a bad view of CAP.  Members walk around like they are real officers when they aren't and want salutes.  Others refuse to follow regs and salute AD/ Reserve officers.  CAP members walk around looking like they just pulled a uniform from the floor after being covered with 100 pounds of junk.  CAP members that also try to tell AD people how to do their jobs.  Sure I would take advice from a person in the civilian occupation I was in (medic/ corpsman), but I am not going to listen to a person with basic first aid/ cpr tell me how to do my job.

I think to prevent this, CAP needs to do a better job training new members.

Based on this post, I understand why many CAP members have the view that AD/reserve members dislike them.  We get falsely accused of trolling for salutes when it is a miniscule percentage of the membership who actually does so.  I have never seen a CAP member refuse to salute an AD/reserve officer (remember, it's not a two way street; saluting is required for us but not for them).  AD/reserve members who look down the nose at CAP and call them "wannabes" for wearing the uniform.  AD people who just assume CAP members try to tell them how to do their jobs based on mostly anecdotal "evidence."  I have an honours-level degree in computer science but when a person whose only computer experience is with Wii or Nintendo tries to tell me how programming or hardware configuration works I just usually let them talk until they've dug themselves into a hole they can't get out of.

I think to prevent this, the AF needs to make its membership aware of who we are and what we do.  Currently they do a very bad job of that don't do that at all, and that's where most of the misconceptions about CAP come in.