Military award on CAP uniform etiquette

[UH60guy]

OK, quick question. I've only been in CAP a few months and am relatively familiar with the regulations, but it's the "unspoken" or etiquette things I'm still unfamiliar with.

For those members who have been in the military, which military awards do you wear with your CAP uniform, in addition to the CAP ribbons? Do you wear them all? Or just those individual awards you "earned," AKA all but campaign and unit awards? Maybe just the high three?

Haven't worn the CAP blues much yet, and when I have I just skipped the ribbons all together. Curious to see what others approach is on this.

[PHall]

OK, quick question. I've only been in CAP a few months and am relatively familiar with the regulations, but it's the "unspoken" or etiquette things I'm still unfamiliar with.

For those members who have been in the military, which military awards do you wear with your CAP uniform, in addition to the CAP ribbons? Do you wear them all? Or just those individual awards you "earned," AKA all but campaign and unit awards? Maybe just the high three?

Haven't worn the CAP blues much yet, and when I have I just skipped the ribbons all together. Curious to see what others approach is on this.

Okay, I get the vibe that you're Army. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Basic rule is that if you can wear it on an Air Force uniform you can wear it on your CAP uniform. Provided you have a DD214/DD215 or orders awarding the ribbon/medal/badge.
CAPM 39-1 is the uniform reg and CAPR 39-3 is the Awards and Decs reg. They have charts and such to show what is worn where.

The decision to wear your military awards and decs is up to you. Personally, I wear just my personal decs (MSM, Aerial Ach, AF Comm and AF Ach) with my CAP ribbons.

[capmaj]

And it should be noted that generally speaking, as a matter of custom, not regulation, USAF officers do not wear any ribbons on an open-collared shirt. Only specialty badges/insignia are usually worn.

[Sapper168]

I am former army and i personally wear all of my ribbons from that time.  I earned them, service ribbons and all.  Some people don't want do the same and thats ok too.  Its a personal preference that isn't right or wrong.   

[Sapper168]

And it should be noted that generally speaking, as a matter of custom, not regulation, USAF officers do not wear any ribbons on an open-collared shirt. Only specialty badges/insignia are usually worn.

I think that may be a custom that has slowly been changing too.  I am seeing more and more pictures of USAF officers in Short sleeve blues with ribbons.   

[PHall]

And it should be noted that generally speaking, as a matter of custom, not regulation, USAF officers do not wear any ribbons on an open-collared shirt. Only specialty badges/insignia are usually worn.

I think that may be a custom that has slowly been changing too.  I am seeing more and more pictures of USAF officers in Short sleeve blues with ribbons.

But do they have wings?   Getting pilots to wear blues is hard enough. Getting them to wear their ribbons properly can be a real PITA!

[Pylon]

I mix my (scarcely few) military ribbons in with my CAP ribbons.  I maintain a separate CAP/USMC mixed rack.  That being said, I follow the "traditions" of the Air Force officers who generally only wear badges (wings, etc.) on their blues shirt and no ribbons — even though Marine Corps custom is all your ribbons, all the time, every time.  I generally save wearing ribbons for the one or two occasions per year that call for a service coat.


Some CAP members would have huge 30+ ribbon racks if they combined their whole CAP and military ribbons, so some choose to be selective when assembling a combined rack.  That's personal choice.  If you rate 40 ribbons, wear all 40.  You're probably the second coming of Chesty Puller anyway and nobody is going to question you.



That also being said, nobody is going to look down upon you for wearing what you've earned on your blues shirt or otherwise, as long as you rate it and you're wearing it properly to CAP's regulations. 

[Eclipse]

That also being said, nobody is going to look down upon you for wearing what you've earned on your blues shirt or otherwise, as long as you rate it and you're wearing it properly to CAP's regulations.

Agreed.

Also, in CAP, it is more common than in the USAF to see officers wearing ribbons on their shirts, especially the whites, since many members
have no other option for wearing them then with the aviator whites.

[Private Investigator]

Some CAP members would have huge 30+ ribbon racks if they combined their whole CAP and military ribbons, so some choose to be selective when assembling a combined rack.  That's personal choice.  If you rate 40 ribbons, wear all 40.  You're probably the second coming of Chesty Puller anyway and nobody is going to question you.

Semper Fi   :clap:

[Private Investigator]

OK, quick question. I've only been in CAP a few months and am relatively familiar with the regulations, but it's the "unspoken" or etiquette things I'm still unfamiliar with.

For those members who have been in the military, which military awards do you wear with your CAP uniform, in addition to the CAP ribbons? Do you wear them all? Or just those individual awards you "earned," AKA all but campaign and unit awards? Maybe just the high three?

Haven't worn the CAP blues much yet, and when I have I just skipped the ribbons all together. Curious to see what others approach is on this.

I like what Navy Captains and Admirals do, they wear the three highest and it looks good.

Welcome aboard

[Eclipse]

That's not a bad idea for CAP, either.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I wear it all, all awards, and CIB and AASLT.

Wear what you want so long as you are approved it, and can back it with paperwork.

[RogueLeader]

Being former army myself, I wear all my ribbons (army and CAP) on my Service Dress.)  On the rare occasion that I wear ribbons on my blues shirt, I wear all my CAP ribbons plus the 2 Army ribbons that was due, in part or wholly responsible, to CAP service (MOVSM and AAR).

[UH60guy]

Thanks for the info guys. I'll stick to just my Army Aviator and Airborne badges. Still, never been a fan of ribbons on the shirt (sorry Marines), and I'm glad to hear that it's relatively common to go without. I personally just don't like the extra weight and feel of the shirt with them on. If I ever get the service coat and need ribbons, then I have some excellent feedback above to consider.

Funny now that I think about it, the Army rarely does anything where we're not wearing our ACU camouflage uniforms, so I'm not even sure what my own service commonly does on the Class Bs. Regs are one thing, common use is another. Then again, our new Class Bs make us look like the ice cream truck driver, but that's a story for another day.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Funny now that I think about it, the Army rarely does anything where we're not wearing our ACU camouflage uniforms, so I'm not even sure what my own service commonly does on the Class Bs.

True enough.  I couldn't tell you when the last time was that I saw a Soldier - Active, Guard or Reserve - who wasn't wearing an ACU.

[Pylon]

True enough.  I couldn't tell you when the last time was that I saw a Soldier - Active, Guard or Reserve - who wasn't wearing an ACU.

Had a good Army friend of mine (who is a WO1) visit me at Parris Island.  UOD on base for Sundays and Graduation Days was almost always Service Charlies (for Marines) or service equivalent, so he wore Class B's of that new Army blue pants/white shirt combo (and wore ribbons and badges on the shirt). 

[Flying Pig]

True enough.  I couldn't tell you when the last time was that I saw a Soldier - Active, Guard or Reserve - who wasn't wearing an ACU.

Had a good Army friend of mine (who is a WO1) visit me at Parris Island.  UOD on base for Sundays and Graduation Days was almost always Service Charlies (for Marines) or service equivalent, so he wore Class B's of that new Army blue pants/white shirt combo (and wore ribbons and badges on the shirt).

Were you thrashed appropriately for having Army friends?

[RogueLeader]

Funny now that I think about it, the Army rarely does anything where we're not wearing our ACU's

Huh, During 09-10 at Bragg, we wore Class A's for payday activities, first Friday of every month.

[Stonewall]

True enough.  I couldn't tell you when the last time was that I saw a Soldier - Active, Guard or Reserve - who wasn't wearing an ACU.

Had a good Army friend of mine (who is a WO1) visit me at Parris Island.  UOD on base for Sundays and Graduation Days was almost always Service Charlies (for Marines) or service equivalent, so he wore Class B's of that new Army blue pants/white shirt combo (and wore ribbons and badges on the shirt).

Were you thrashed appropriately for having Army friends?

The Army WO1 he's speaking of is also a former Marine.

[NIN]

I mix my (scarcely few) military ribbons in with my CAP ribbons.

In your case, you might want to avoid wearing your military ribbons to keep down the "point and laugh" crowd.  Just sayin'...

Some CAP members would have huge 30+ ribbon racks if they combined their whole CAP and military ribbons, so some choose to be selective when assembling a combined rack.  That's personal choice.  If you rate 40 ribbons, wear all 40.  You're probably the second coming of Chesty Puller anyway and nobody is going to question you.

Don't forget, too, that the Army has "personal" awards (ie. ARCOMM, Cheese Medal, Good Conduct, etc) and then "Campaign & Service" (NDSM, KDSM, Iraq Campaign, GWOT, ASR, OSR, etc) and then there are the "unit awards" (worn over the nametag).   I was never in a unit when it was actually awarded one of those, thus my wear of unit awards is 100% "temporary" (only during assignment to the unit). If you have "permanent" unit awards, I am not 100% sure where they are worn on the the USAF and/or CAP uniform (darn, caught me: one of the only "Army-to-Air Force" things I don't know...)

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Wiwad, I was army Infantry. We wore our greens about once every other week. But we generally wore class A's. The few times we did wear short sleeves, or long with a tie, ribbons were required.

[Pylon]

I am not 100% sure where they are worn on the the USAF and/or CAP uniform (darn, caught me: one of the only "Army-to-Air Force" things I don't know...)

Just as with Army transfers to the USAF or ANG, permanent unit awards get mixed into the person's main ribbon rack.  Those awards have a place in the regular order of precedence.

In your case, you might want to avoid wearing your military ribbons to keep down the "point and laugh" crowd.  Just sayin'...

Yeah, yeah.  Unlike the Army, the Marines don't award a ribbon for doing what you're supposed to do like for graduating boot camp or successfully putting on your shoes.   

[NIN]

Yeah, yeah.  Unlike the Army, the Marines don't award a ribbon for doing what you're supposed to do like for graduating boot camp or successfully putting on your shoes.   

Caught me.  And its not for successfully putting on our shoes. Its for helping the Marines put on theirs.

[NIN]

Wiwad, I was army Infantry. We wore our greens about once every other week. But we generally wore class A's. The few times we did wear short sleeves, or long with a tie, ribbons were required.

Thats the Army. Completely customary to wear ribbons basically on ALL your 'dress' type uniforms: Class A, Class B, etc.

In the AF, it is customary for officers, especially rated officers, to not wear ribbons on the AF equivalent to the Class B uniform.  One notable exception to this, at least in my experience, were officers who are mustangs.

[PHall]

Wiwad, I was army Infantry. We wore our greens about once every other week. But we generally wore class A's. The few times we did wear short sleeves, or long with a tie, ribbons were required.

Thats the Army. Completely customary to wear ribbons basically on ALL your 'dress' type uniforms: Class A, Class B, etc.

In the AF, it is customary for officers, especially rated officers, to not wear ribbons on the AF equivalent to the Class B uniform.  One notable exception to this, at least in my experience, were officers who are mustangs.

Probably because there are very few officers who were former enlisted who become pilots. They usually have problems with the age 27-1/2 cutoff for pilot training.

[jimmydeanno]

Air.Force culture is pretty definitive that enlisted folks wear their ribbons on the shirt, while officers don't.  I haven't seen a single officer wearing ribbons on the shirt in the last 4 years here, or the 3 at the last base.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

YMMV.

I knew an ANG SMSgt AGR who did not wear ribbons on his shirt...just his qualification badges.

[Camas]

For those of you who are more knowledgeable of Navy/Marine protocol - are the ribbons required on such uniforms as the summer short-sleeve khaki (Navy) or the service bravo/charlies (Marines)? Or are they an option such as CAP or AF?

[PHall]

YMMV.

I knew an ANG SMSgt AGR who did not wear ribbons on his shirt...just his qualification badges.

Do you know how much of a PITA it is to wear your ribbons everyday?

You end up having to replace them every six months or so unless you're wearing ultra thins.

They snag on everything and attract dirt like a dirt magnet...

[Rick-DEL]

I was USAF, but my wife and borther-in-law were Navy. I recall visiting him when he was stationed at Norfolk, and was a CPO. He always had his ribbons on when he was in his Khaki's. My wife was only an E-5, so she only had the whites, which she did wear ribbons. So, to answer your question, I don't know  Just mentioning what I have seen.

[NIN]

Air.Force culture is pretty definitive that enlisted folks wear their ribbons on the shirt, while officers don't.  I haven't seen a single officer wearing ribbons on the shirt in the last 4 years here, or the 3 at the last base.

Then the customary aspect of former enlisted officers wearing ribbon on the shirt may have gone away.

Bummer, cuz in the 1980s and 1990s, I saw it a bunch.

[SarDragon]

Well, I just looked at the Navy uni reg, and it says top 3, or all. Ribbons are listed as a Basic Uniform Component for Service Uniforms, so they are not optional.

I don't recall ever not wearing ribbons on any uniform where wear was permitted.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Well, I just looked at the Navy uni reg, and it says top 3, or all. Ribbons are listed as a Basic Uniform Component for Service Uniforms, so they are not optional.

I don't recall ever not wearing ribbons on any uniform where wear was permitted.

USCG requires them on their equivalent of our long-sleeve/tie order of dress (at least I think so; it's a long time since I was an Auxie).  I don't know if the "top three" rule applies to them or not.  I know I saw a LOT of senior NCO's, warrant officers and commissioned officers, not to mention Auxies with military service, with the most incredible ribbon racks, especially since they're only allowed to wear three to a line.

(Mike: Correct where needed)

[Stonewall]

FWIW, I have a CAP rack of "thin ribbons" I had made.  I don't wear ribbons on blues shirts and I don't own a CAP service coat, so it was really a waist.

In the Air Force, even as an enlisted guy, I choose not to wear my ribbons on my blues shirt (22 of them), just my service coat.

I'm a fan of following [unwritten] officer standards in the AF of not wearing ribbons on blues shirts and sticking with a badge or two, or three, or four.

As far as military badges, I have a few, and usually wear 1 CAP and 1 AF (or Army) badge. 

That's just how I roll.

[MIKE]

Well, I just looked at the Navy uni reg, and it says top 3, or all. Ribbons are listed as a Basic Uniform Component for Service Uniforms, so they are not optional.

I don't recall ever not wearing ribbons on any uniform where wear was permitted.

USCG requires them on their equivalent of our long-sleeve/tie order of dress (at least I think so; it's a long time since I was an Auxie).  I don't know if the "top three" rule applies to them or not.  I know I saw a LOT of senior NCO's, warrant officers and commissioned officers, not to mention Auxies with military service, with the most incredible ribbon racks, especially since they're only allowed to wear three to a line.

(Mike: Correct where needed)

Not worn on the long sleeve light blue shirt (Undress Blue - Winter).  Have to wear either top three, any nine or all on Winter Dress Blue (The dark blue long sleeve shirt everyone wants.), Tropical Blue etc. 

[Stonewall]

I was never in a unit when it was actually awarded one of those, thus my wear of unit awards is 100% "temporary" (only during assignment to the unit). If you have "permanent" unit awards, I am not 100% sure where they are worn on the the USAF and/or CAP uniform (darn, caught me: one of the only "Army-to-Air Force" things I don't know...)

I know it was already mentioned, NIN, but here's a pic of where my Army Superior Unit Award went on my AF rack.  It goes right into the mix and is even acknowledged/recognized on vMPF.

[NorCal21]

You know, I only wear my ribbons on my service coat. I tend to follow the custom of AF officers simply wearing their devices on the blues. I do it because it looks cleaner in my opinion, but also out of laziness. I can admit it!

[LGM30GMCC]

Course we also take it to another level. Generally, from what I have seen, not only do most officers wear only badges on our blues, we only wear mini-badges. Occasionally you see full-size ones but I would say that is generally the exception. More often you see the full size ones on larger folks.

[CAPMajOhio]

Since I have spent my entire 20+yrs in CAP working with Cadets I feel it is important to set a proper example.  I wear all my ribbons (USAF-ARMY-CAP) on Blues jacket and shirt.  Over those years I've heard many a comment from Cadets about the appearance (and performance) of Seniors.  I am always aware of my conduct, performance and appearance when working with cadets. 
Just as a side note...I seem to remember something about being in same uniform if you are inspecting others...kind of setting the example-meeting the standards thing.  So how do I convince Cadets I know my regulations/policies if I don't demonstrate it by properly wearing my ribbons.
Just my two cents.

[LGM30GMCC]

If you can wear your ribbons properly on your jackets, and badges etc properly on your shirt, you can likely wear your ribbons correctly on your shirt. I think you are thinking the amount cadets care about you wearing your ribbons is much higher than it likely is.

Generally, SMs shouldn't be conducting an inspection of cadets. There are some exceptions but the norm should be it being conducted by senior cadets. It's also a good experience for cadet officers to get in the habit of doing.

Part of the issue is also the tug-of-war between giving a more accurate culture of the USAF vs the very idea you describe. Culturally, in the USAF, so-called 'mustangs' will sometimes wear ribbons on their shirt but the majority of officers do not. I don't know when/where/how this cultural thing started. It's not written down anywhere but it just is that way.

And that's the rub...you may be demonstrating knowledge of the regulations, but lack of knowledge (or caring) of USAF officer culture. If you're around USAF CGOs they are more likely to ping on that than that you are demonstrating proper wear of ribbons for cadets. We're a finicky lot and the vast majority have little knowledge about CAP. Some of the issues of performance and appearance is why, I would argue, a majority of USAF CGOs have a dim view of CAP senior members.

[ProdigalJim]

And that's the rub...you may be demonstrating knowledge of the regulations, but lack of knowledge (or caring) of USAF officer culture. If you're around USAF CGOs they are more likely to ping on that than that you are demonstrating proper wear of ribbons for cadets.

Not really a thread de-rail, but I guess a drift: my observation is that one of the main differences between CAP culture and USAF AD culture *might* be traceable to the differences between NCO culture and officer culture. My experience is that many senior CAP leaders came from the AD NCO cadre, and have carried with them NCO culture.

Not saying one is better than the other, just that they *are* different, and many of our SM officers seem to reflect that.

[Texas Raiders]

If you can wear your ribbons properly on your jackets, and badges etc properly on your shirt, you can likely wear your ribbons correctly on your shirt.

Right!  Wear your uniform properly, abide by the grooming standards, and take pride in your appearance.  You can't go wrong.  If you're a SM and you don't want to do that, then don't wear a uniform.

And that's the rub...you may be demonstrating knowledge of the regulations, but lack of knowledge (or caring) of USAF officer culture. If you're around USAF CGOs they are more likely to ping on that than that you are demonstrating proper wear of ribbons for cadets. We're a finicky lot and the vast majority have little knowledge about CAP. Some of the issues of performance and appearance is why, I would argue, a majority of USAF CGOs have a dim view of CAP senior members.

I can relate to this one.  A majority of active and reserve USCG personnel, including myself, had dim view of the USCGAUX for similar reasons.  Ignorance, plus the notion that they were just people out "playing coast guard" didn't help either.  I later learned how effective and helpful they actually are. 

I can see how a non-commission holding volunteer wearing your rank would make some people feel uncomfortable.

[Nuke52]

Hi.  Long-time lurker, first-time poster here...

If you can wear your ribbons properly on your jackets, and badges etc properly on your shirt, you can likely wear your ribbons correctly on your shirt. I think you are thinking the amount cadets care about you wearing your ribbons is much higher than it likely is.

+1
I hope (delude myself?) that the cadets at least care that we make the attempt to wear the same uniform as they wear and that we do it correctly, but whether we're wearing ribbons on the shirt or which ribbons or badges for that matter, I truly doubt they even notice, let alone care...

Part of the issue is also the tug-of-war between giving a more accurate culture of the USAF vs the very idea you describe. Culturally, in the USAF, so-called 'mustangs' will sometimes wear ribbons on their shirt but the majority of officers do not. I don't know when/where/how this cultural thing started. It's not written down anywhere but it just is that way.

And that's the rub...you may be demonstrating knowledge of the regulations, but lack of knowledge (or caring) of USAF officer culture. If you're around USAF CGOs they are more likely to ping on that than that you are demonstrating proper wear of ribbons for cadets. We're a finicky lot and the vast majority have little knowledge about CAP. Some of the issues of performance and appearance is why, I would argue, a majority of USAF CGOs have a dim view of CAP senior members.

+1/2 here...  I agree CAP sometimes has a little problem accurately portraying USAF culture since a good number of our members have either prior service in a different branch or no military service at all.  And I'm not saying that as a slight:  the folks we have, current AD AF vs. no-mil-service-ever and everything in between are good people doing their best to mentor our cadets, they just don't always have the most accurate sight picture on how things are in the "real" AF or what's really important and why.  For example, I know some senior members with an Army background who "instruct" cadets never to smile in photos.  Why?  "It's not military.  You have to be sharp/serious/whatever, and smiling in a picture is 'unprofessional'..."  Maybe that's true in the Army, idk--most people in Army official photos seem to be trying their hardest to supress any hint of personality or personableness and to look mean, I mean, serious--but that's simply not the case in the Air Force.  Same thing goes for the old guy who did his two years in the Navy in 1953 and tells the cadets the "military way" to call a floor is a 'deck' and "our squadron doesn't have a stairwell, it's a 'ladder!'", etc.  They're doing their best with their thrust, their vector's just a smidge off.  And I don't fault them for it, I'm glad to have them on the team and, as necessary, I gently help them adjust their fire.

That's where the half point deduction comes from.  Granted, I'm not a USAF CGO, so I can't authoritatively speak for them, but I would really hope that our eager, young, and "finicky" CGOs wouldn't be "pinging" on silly things like that.  (And perhaps your words were a bit stronger than you really mean them in order to make a rhetorical point, but...) someone with an AD officer background is hopefully focusing on the positive, (much) bigger picture (i.e., thank Goodness this other guy shows up to the meetings every week--and in uniform, too!--so that I don't have to do it all myself) rather than "taking a dim view" of CAP senior member officers because they're wearing on the blue shirt the ribbons they earned and are proud of. 

At most--if there absolutely had to be a negative reaction--I would hope that our young CGO would look at his non-AD CAP colleague and think TO HIMSELF, "Oh look at that, he's wearing his ribbons on his shirt.  How cute.  Oh yeah, and thank Goodness he's here!!"

FWIW, if/when asked, I tell my cadets and fellow seniors both what the reg says AND how it's really done in the AD AF by both our enlisted members and our officers.  The cadet officers who like to think of themselves as future AF Os may emulate the AF tradition, and those who aspire to enlist after high school, just like Dad/Mom, are likely to wear their ribbons proudly every week.  And it's all good because it's kosher with the reg and ALL cadets--even those with three diamonds--are still trainees in CAP, so it's good for them to see how it feels to try out different things (within the letter of the law, of course) and envision/live out their future a bit with no threat.  The black and white verbiage of the reg means more when viewed in light of the actual practices.

Just my $0.02.  Oh, and to all of you fellow SMs leading and mentoring our CAP youth (with or w/out your ribbons), THANKS for what you do!

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

We're a finicky lot and the vast majority have little knowledge about CAP. Some of the issues of performance and appearance is why, I would argue, a majority of USAF CGOs have a dim view of CAP senior members.

IF they know who we are at all...which is an inexcusable problem endemic throughout the USAF.  The newest E-1 at Lackland isn't even told who we are, so who owns the problem when said E-1 encounters a CAP officer and doesn't know what to do?  Or, even worse, the goofball MTI who told his charges that when they encounter CAP personnel to "ignore them?"  I got that from a comment on a thread on Air Force Times.  I really hope that goofball MTI is an isolated incident.

I can relate to this one.  A majority of active and reserve USCG personnel, including myself, had dim view of the USCGAUX for similar reasons.  Ignorance, plus the notion that they were just people out "playing coast guard" didn't help either.  I later learned how effective and helpful they actually are. 

I never once encountered this from the CG WIWACGAuxie.  I never got anything from the CG NCO's and officers I encountered but "thank you for helping out...you take a big load off our backs."

Contrast that to the "benign indifference" (at best) we get from the USAF, except at the CAP-USAF level.  All the hand-wringing about uniform colours, styles etc. doesn't have one bloody iota to do with that.  A dipstick CAP officer trolling for salutes from military personnel will do it no matter if s/he is wearing maroon, grey or blue epaulettes or hard rank.  It has to do with personalities, not insignia.  As I've said before, if an E-1 cannot read the letters "CAP" on a shoulder mark, regardless of colour, then we don't own the problem.

At best, the USAF looks at us as a source of warm bodies through the gates of Lackland (cadets), despite what the occasional "official" plaudit may say.

I can see how a non-commission holding volunteer wearing your rank would make some people feel uncomfortable.

A problem solvable through education.

[Texas Raiders]

We're a finicky lot and the vast majority have little knowledge about CAP. Some of the issues of performance and appearance is why, I would argue, a majority of USAF CGOs have a dim view of CAP senior members.

IF they know who we are at all...which is an inexcusable problem endemic throughout the USAF.  The newest E-1 at Lackland isn't even told who we are, so who owns the problem when said E-1 encounters a CAP officer and doesn't know what to do?  Or, even worse, the goofball MTI who told his charges that when they encounter CAP personnel to "ignore them?"  I got that from a comment on a thread on Air Force Times.  I really hope that goofball MTI is an isolated incident.

I can relate to this one.  A majority of active and reserve USCG personnel, including myself, had dim view of the USCGAUX for similar reasons.  Ignorance, plus the notion that they were just people out "playing coast guard" didn't help either.  I later learned how effective and helpful they actually are. 

I never once encountered this from the CG WIWACGAuxie.  I never got anything from the CG NCO's and officers I encountered but "thank you for helping out...you take a big load off our backs."

Contrast that to the "benign indifference" (at best) we get from the USAF, except at the CAP-USAF level.  All the hand-wringing about uniform colours, styles etc. doesn't have one bloody iota to do with that.  A dipstick CAP officer trolling for salutes from military personnel will do it no matter if s/he is wearing maroon, grey or blue epaulettes or hard rank.  It has to do with personalities, not insignia.  As I've said before, if an E-1 cannot read the letters "CAP" on a shoulder mark, regardless of colour, then we don't own the problem.

At best, the USAF looks at us as a source of warm bodies through the gates of Lackland (cadets), despite what the occasional "official" plaudit may say.

I can see how a non-commission holding volunteer wearing your rank would make some people feel uncomfortable.

A problem solvable through education.

Education seems to be the common thread in your comment.  I whole-heartedly agree too. 

As for the Coast Guard/ CGAUX notion that I mentioned........... that was specific to the Gulf coast of Texas about 15 years ago, where I was stationed at the time.  My education and personal experience/interraction with the CGAUX personnel while stationed at Station New London, CT changed that notion for me.

[LGM30GMCC]

That's where the half point deduction comes from.  Granted, I'm not a USAF CGO, so I can't authoritatively speak for them, but I would really hope that our eager, young, and "finicky" CGOs wouldn't be "pinging" on silly things like that.  (And perhaps your words were a bit stronger than you really mean them in order to make a rhetorical point, but...) someone with an AD officer background is hopefully focusing on the positive, (much) bigger picture (i.e., thank Goodness this other guy shows up to the meetings every week--and in uniform, too!--so that I don't have to do it all myself) rather than "taking a dim view" of CAP senior member officers because they're wearing on the blue shirt the ribbons they earned and are proud of. 

At most--if there absolutely had to be a negative reaction--I would hope that our young CGO would look at his non-AD CAP colleague and think TO HIMSELF, "Oh look at that, he's wearing his ribbons on his shirt.  How cute.  Oh yeah, and thank Goodness he's here!!"

FWIW, if/when asked, I tell my cadets and fellow seniors both what the reg says AND how it's really done in the AD AF by both our enlisted members and our officers.  The black and white verbiage of the reg means more when viewed in light of the actual practices.

Nuke,

I wish it were the way you hope it is, but...it isn't. There is a strong disconnect between the flag officer, field grade, and company grade officer perspectives. Much of this does lay heavily on the feet of the USAF and how it neglects us in its initial training. Some of this is simply fall out of limited training time and so much to be aware of. I suppose you could take some comfort that the National Guard and (to a lesser extent perhaps) reserves are also somewhat neglected. Even within the AD community some mission roles are also neglected, nukes are a perfect example of this. (There are quite a few USAF members who don't know that we have nuclear missiles still on alert still.) It would be nice if we got at least 5-10 minutes of training, maybe a page in an ROTC/AFA text book would be beneficial. Until that happens we will be largely unknown by the officer corps.

Now about how CGOs react to stuff, some of that is because a number of them haven't gotten out of the initial stuff yet. The majority of officers spend 4 years getting picked on for things like uniforms and those little detail things. For them at their level that stuff is a lot more important, or at least attention getting. Job wise they look at a very small slice of the AF pie and if it isn't directly related to their immediate job they may not see the importance of it. If we as CAP make a bad impression at this formative time in a CGO's career that image is going to stick with them for a long time, to the point they won't even know where it came from.

Field Grade Officers have started to really see the bigger picture. They may also have kids approaching cadet aged and they start to see all the cool things CAP does.  They aren't looking at it through the eyes of a 20 something freshly out of college. (Let's face it, many if not most of our squadrons are not exactly populated by the types of folks 20 somethings want to hang out with. This is a nationally recognized issue that we are bad about recruiting 20-30 somethings.) They may also start to see more things like well behaved cadets on tours, or interact with CAP for a NCSA or something along those lines. They see the value and tend to either be a little more excusing of the 'old war stories' (because they are either interested in them as a historical perspective, or at least have just grown more mature and enjoy the camraderie especially now that they have stories of their own they can relate with) and more inclined toward gentle vectoring. They have seen more of the big picture and generally prioritized mission accomplishment over looking pretty or being 'cool'. CAP starts to shine a bit better in this age bracket, though poorly acting CAP 'FGO's, or people who wear the rank but have little-to-no-experience acting like an officer can really sour their view. They have spent 10+ years earning their leaves and someone wearing them, or Lt Col rank and acting like a jack wagon is really going to lose credibility in a hurry.

O-6s and up are looking at even bigger picture things. They may also have to spend a lot more time worried about money. Here CAP can really start to shine and the volunteer spirit means more. These guys may not see the stupid things CAP does because they get briefed by the stars of CAP. If they do see the stupid they are used to seeing stupid in subordinate units, and may raise it with a wing commander or something and expect that the commander will get his people in line. They also have so many other things to worry about that as long as we are doing what we are supposed to be doing, and not hindering them, they likely don't care. Any benefits to their folks are also heightened as a way to improve their base, unit, or whatever. ('A powerful DDR program that serves the base kids effectively? Yes please I want that on my base!') And of course the 1st AF/CC, AETC/CC, NORTHCOM/CC all see us in that light of force multiplier. They may only know 1 or 2 members personally, but on paper CAP is doing fantastic things. (And we are doing fantastic things, and something like X% of our members couldn't wear a uniform to save their life, probably isn't in that report.)

Cyborg is at least partly correct. Additional education on the part of the USAF would be beneficial. However, if it is not backed up by our officers looking and more importantly ACTING like USAF officers (how we really act, not how people think we act) then we will always have these image problems. If you have an older, larger, fuzzier, whatever SM (the kind that sometimes draw the ire of even cadets) who is wearing their uniform properly, focused on the mission, and speaking like a modern AF officer (not talking about the good old days) they will be viewed as a peer. The uniform may look a little funny but they'll get past that. The uniform is an initial impression. The closer we look and act like the real deal, the more all that is ignored and the sooner you get to the meaty conversations that build positive relationships. Education is part of that, attitude is a much larger portion.

[NorCal21]

And that's the rub...you may be demonstrating knowledge of the regulations, but lack of knowledge (or caring) of USAF officer culture. If you're around USAF CGOs they are more likely to ping on that than that you are demonstrating proper wear of ribbons for cadets. We're a finicky lot and the vast majority have little knowledge about CAP. Some of the issues of performance and appearance is why, I would argue, a majority of USAF CGOs have a dim view of CAP senior members.

I would agree with you here. I think knowing the regulations is very important, but I think knowing the culture is as well. Just like every branch, and at every base or unit, there are things that are done that might skirt the regs because of a cultural history. In this case, its customary for AF officers to now wear their ribbons.

Besides, if a cadet cared then they should ask why a SM officer isn't wearing their ribbons. That would be an excellent opportunity to have a class on customs and courtesies don't you guys think?

[NorCal21]

And that's the rub...you may be demonstrating knowledge of the regulations, but lack of knowledge (or caring) of USAF officer culture. If you're around USAF CGOs they are more likely to ping on that than that you are demonstrating proper wear of ribbons for cadets.

Not really a thread de-rail, but I guess a drift: my observation is that one of the main differences between CAP culture and USAF AD culture *might* be traceable to the differences between NCO culture and officer culture. My experience is that many senior CAP leaders came from the AD NCO cadre, and have carried with them NCO culture.

Not saying one is better than the other, just that they *are* different, and many of our SM officers seem to reflect that.

That's a very interesting point. Never thought of it that way.

I have to say that CAP has its own culture as well. I would want to follow the regs first, CAP culture second and then AF culture third. That's my personal take on it of course, but at the same time... if I followed CAP culture I'd be in the polo shirt for nearly everything! Haha

[LGM30GMCC]

I'd say CAP culture is to disagree about this or that, sometimes vehemently, and eventually fall back on the regs.  Since we haven't really defined the custom ourselves my inclination is to lean toward the USAF culture more heavily in terms of uniform wear for some of the reasons I suggested. I have no problem with distinctive markers that are simple (grey slides, whatever. Personally I wish we could use dark blue again, but whatever). I think behavior wise we don't need to try to be distinctive.

The more we blend into the 'one-team' concept with AD/ANG/Res and to some extent non-uniformed Civ the better off our relationship would be. With the right cultural attitudes and behaviors I can see our squadron commanders being completely welcome/wanted at wing commander calls/meetings and just mixed in with the rest of the squadron commanders on a base. In essence, the more we become a part of a base (where there is one) rather than an outside group that meets on the base, the better off it is for both CAP and the USAF.

[Nuke52]

That's where the half point deduction comes from.  Granted, I'm not a USAF CGO, so I can't authoritatively speak for them, but I would really hope that our eager, young, and "finicky" CGOs wouldn't be "pinging" on silly things like that.  (And perhaps your words were a bit stronger than you really mean them in order to make a rhetorical point, but...) someone with an AD officer background is hopefully focusing on the positive, (much) bigger picture (i.e., thank Goodness this other guy shows up to the meetings every week--and in uniform, too!--so that I don't have to do it all myself) rather than "taking a dim view" of CAP senior member officers because they're wearing on the blue shirt the ribbons they earned and are proud of. 

At most--if there absolutely had to be a negative reaction--I would hope that our young CGO would look at his non-AD CAP colleague and think TO HIMSELF, "Oh look at that, he's wearing his ribbons on his shirt.  How cute.  Oh yeah, and thank Goodness he's here!!"

FWIW, if/when asked, I tell my cadets and fellow seniors both what the reg says AND how it's really done in the AD AF by both our enlisted members and our officers.  The black and white verbiage of the reg means more when viewed in light of the actual practices.

Nuke,

I wish it were the way you hope it is, but...it isn't. There is a strong disconnect between the flag officer, field grade, and company grade officer perspectives. Much of this does lay heavily on the feet of the USAF and how it neglects us in its initial training. Some of this is simply fall out of limited training time and so much to be aware of. I suppose you could take some comfort that the National Guard and (to a lesser extent perhaps) reserves are also somewhat neglected. Even within the AD community some mission roles are also neglected, nukes are a perfect example of this. (There are quite a few USAF members who don't know that we have nuclear missiles still on alert still.) It would be nice if we got at least 5-10 minutes of training, maybe a page in an ROTC/AFA text book would be beneficial. Until that happens we will be largely unknown by the officer corps.
...
[snip]

Minuteman,

I hear what you're saying and I think we're almost completely in agreement here, other than the fact that I failed to clearly express what I meant.  My bad. 

I was attempting to refer to an AD CGO who doubles as a CAP SM.  A young CAP SM/AF CGO who is nitpicking/looking down on his CAP co-workers for something silly like wearing their ribbons on their blues shirts is waaay off base.  He should simply be thrilled to death that his fellow CAP members were showing up to the meetings in uniform and helping so that he didn't have to do everything himself.  "Pinging" that they have the proper ribbons in the proper place on their shirts (as is allowed in the regs, though not AF custom) is beyond petty, and most likely counterproductive.

The one (minor) place I'm not 100% onboard with you regards what a CGO spends his first four years doing.  I can imagine life as a young missileer has its miserable moments--and I knew some missile guys who were hating life over my four long winters on the frozen ND tundra--but not once was I ever picked on for my uniform.  Okay, except that time I wore my sweater with my blues...  I prefer to call it a "bold choice" rather than a lack of masculinity, but I digress...  In any case, my point is that I would hope our CGOs have enough of a bigger picture than to worry too much about ribbons.

Having said that, I agree with you that formalized education of our AF brethren about who CAP is, what we do, who/what we're not, does AD have to salute us, etc., is important for us, would be helpful to all shades & grades of "Real Military (C)," and would certainly improve our relationship and synergies.  Trying to get that 15 minutes of training inserted into BMT or the commissioning sources is another story, unfortunately.  [Hey, that sounds like a great action item for our CAP-USAF folks to take up...]

Even more important than that, though, is that we walk the walk and not clown it up in front of our "Real Military" colleagues.  Members outside of established weight/grooming standards wearing AF-style uniforms, wearing sloppy/dirty/unserviceable uniforms, or those out trolling for salutes do immeasureable harm to our image.  BTW, as long as I'm on a roll (rant?), here's a pet peeve of mine I wish we could stop now:  CAP members who get saluted and then make a big fuss trying to explain how "we're not real military, we're only CAP, you don't have to salute us, etc."  It's embarrassing to us and it's embarrassing to the person you're trying to "correct."  Anyone reading this:  pleeeease, for the love of all things good, just properly return the salute and offer an appropriate greeting.  We're "on the team," let's act like it.

And I'm spent.

[LGM30GMCC]

Ah, yeah, if a AF CGO/CAP SM (where would I meet one of those..hmmm) is getting all bent out of shape about it, yeah that's an issue. I was referring to pure baseline AF CGO. A AF/CAP member should definitely take the opportunity to help inform other members about what the norms are and help folks meet 'em. I have no problem with folks that choose to wear either the AF blue or the G/Ws, as long as they are worn well pressed and whatnot. When it comes to blues though, I think there is some added (and fairly unwritten) onus on folks to reflect not only the regulation that governs the wear of AF Blues, but the officer culture that goes with them. That's why I encourage SM officers in blues to follow the custom and forgo the ribbons on the shirt.

By the time we're captains most CGOs seem to have their head screwed on a bit straight, but unfortunately not all do.

I definitely had some questions about my CAP uniform from my coworkers, but those who already knew me tended to ask questions, not be derisive, at least to my face. (Some ugly rumor mongering out there by some disgruntled people, but they didn't like me anyway.)

That being said, I was sitting in class and there was a relatively new Lt who was going on about how bad CAP was. Wannabe's losers, etc. Finally I interrupted him and started talking about what CAP was, and why things were the way they were. Uniforms were definitely a part of his rant and the image portrayed by members. Had I not been there his vitriol would have been the only message about CAP that probably another 6-7 CGOs around him would have.

I'm not saying Lts sit around griping about uniforms and whatnot. (We're generally not that bored. Girls, guns, and alcohol are far more common I would say) However, any deviation from the USAF uniform wear definitely gets picked up, if not vocalized.

Training wise I'm sure SDFs would want some time too. I really think there is simply a limited amount of time in training and how much would be retained is questionable.

And yeah, when it comes to the salute thing. We are 100% on the same page.

[Nuke52]

Ah, yeah, if a AF CGO/CAP SM (where would I meet one of those..hmmm) is getting all bent out of shape about it, yeah that's an issue. I was referring to pure baseline AF CGO. A AF/CAP member should definitely take the opportunity to help inform other members about what the norms are and help folks meet 'em. I have no problem with folks that choose to wear either the AF blue or the G/Ws, as long as they are worn well pressed and whatnot. When it comes to blues though, I think there is some added (and fairly unwritten) onus on folks to reflect not only the regulation that governs the wear of AF Blues, but the officer culture that goes with them. That's why I encourage SM officers in blues to follow the custom and forgo the ribbons on the shirt.

I'm with you, and that's part of what I'm getting at.  As CAP SMs, we should absolutely mentor our fellow SM officers in following AF officer culture, but most of the time, I'm just happy I've got someone helping me out at the meeting and that they're in an appropriate uniform.  Because it's not a uniform "discrepancy" and because they're probably pretty proud they get to show off their hard-earned hardware, I'll save the no-ribbons-on-blues chat for some other time when I think they're ready for it and it won't discourage them from coming.  On the other hand, if they or anyone else ask me why I'm not wearing any ribbons, I'll give them the spiel and take the opportunity to do some informal edumacation.

[Eclipse]

As CAP SMs, we should absolutely mentor our fellow SM officers in following AF officer culture,

CAP senior members should be mentored in Civil Air Patrol culture.

In most cases the path converge, but they are not always the same, nor should they be, and no insinuation that AF Culture trumps CAP's should ever be made.

I'd hazard that the majority of CAP members allowed to wear blues don't own a service coat and never will, and those who own one probably only wear it a few times a year, so the insinuation that ribbons should not be worn on the shirt leaves a significant number of members with no where to display them.

It's one thing to fully prescribe wear when uniforms are issued and garments are mandated, it's another when the member is footing the whole bill
and there is no consistency in who wears what.  An off-handed comment about it being "wrong" to wear ribbons on the shirt, when that is simply an opinion, may well kill the spirit of a member.  I've seen less do worse damage.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

That being said, I was sitting in class and there was a relatively new Lt who was going on about how bad CAP was. Wannabe's losers, etc. Finally I interrupted him and started talking about what CAP was, and why things were the way they were. Uniforms were definitely a part of his rant and the image portrayed by members. Had I not been there his vitriol would have been the only message about CAP that probably another 6-7 CGOs around him would have.

Did you find out where this lieutenant got his duff gen about CAP?  Usually it's a rumour from a friend-of-a-friend-of-an-NCO-that-a-CAP-member-tried-to-force-a-salute-from rather than direct experience

Training wise I'm sure SDFs would want some time too. I really think there is simply a limited amount of time in training and how much would be retained is questionable.

Maybe they would, but I only know of two (TX and CA) that have personnel wearing the AF uniform, and they wear it with even less changes than we do.  The most I've ever seen is a different nameplate, and sometimes state lapel brass, if that, but the AF gives them a pass.


CCM (CA) Charles W. Collier Jr., CA SMR

(Also, TX Air Wing wears ABU's)

Most of the SDF's wear Army uniforms, and to be fair they usually do have modifiers like their state initials instead of "U.S." on the lapels.

Ohio and New York have Naval units, and they're also very minimum-change.

The ironic thing is that the SDF's are not a direct part of the Air Force structure, except to provide support for the Air Guard units.  We are (AUXON/OFF be hanged), and I've seen SDF's wearing their uniform quite incorrectly.

Yes, there is a limited amount of time in training (BTDT years ago), but to replace yet another session of underwear folding or yelling at the latrine queen wouldn't take anything away from that.

[Nuke52]

As CAP SMs, we should absolutely mentor our fellow SM officers in following AF officer culture,

CAP senior members should be mentored in Civil Air Patrol culture.

Points well taken, Eclipse.  Agreed on all counts, and I stand corrected in that our SMs should be mentored in our CAP culture (which is at least somewhat based on our parent service AF/Army Air Corps culture).

I in no way intended to insinuate that AF culture should trump CAP culture where the two diverge, only that it is right and proper that (as per CAPP 151 & in my opinion) CAP follows its parent service's protocol and customs whenever appropriate.

I also stand by my comment that while I will not wear my ribbons on my blues shirt, that I am still overjoyed to have the presence and assistance of a fellow senior who does wear his.  I also agree with you that a SM who wants to show off his bling on his shirt has every right to do so, and that I would never tell him it is "wrong" because, of course, it isn't.  On the other hand, anyone who asks me why I don't wear mine will get my spiel on AF tradition.  They are free to do with that as they choose, and if they continue to show up every blues night wearing their ribbons, I fall back on what I said in my very first post here:  THANK GOODNESS they're here at the meeting serving CAP!

[Texas Raiders]

CAP senior members should be mentored in Civil Air Patrol culture.

In most cases the path converge, but they are not always the same, nor should they be, and no insinuation that AF Culture trumps CAP's should ever be made.

I'd hazard that the majority of CAP members allowed to wear blues don't own a service coat and never will, and those who own one probably only wear it a few times a year, so the insinuation that ribbons should not be worn on the shirt leaves a significant number of members with no where to display them.

It's one thing to fully prescribe wear when uniforms are issued and garments are mandated, it's another when the member is footing the whole bill
and there is no consistency in who wears what.  An off-handed comment about it being "wrong" to wear ribbons on the shirt, when that is simply an opinion, may well kill the spirit of a member.  I've seen less do worse damage.

:clap: :clap: Hear, hear! On target and tracking. :clap: :clap: 

As I said before, if you wear your uniform properly in accordance with the uniform regulations, you can't go wrong.  I wouldn't imagine that quoting culture as an excuse for being out of regs would be acceptable, especially during inspection.  When I was deployed for Operation Iraqi Freedom, many of us had our names and service embroidered in Arabic above our nametapes on our DCUs.  It was part of the culture over there, but wasn't in regs.  We all kept at least one blouse "clean" because of that and when we came home, those DCU blouses were never worn again.   

[Eclipse]

^ The textbook definition of field expediency.  A mission mandate dictated one action in the field, something else back at home.

Bet they look cool, too.

[Texas Raiders]

^ The textbook definition of field expediency.  A mission mandate dictated one action in the field, something else back at home.

Bet they look cool, too.

They do look cool.     However, the command did outlaw the "modification" to our DCUs about ten months into our year long deployment.  We were still allowed to wear the blouses that had the embroidery, but could not add it to any other items past that date.  The concern is that there was no effective way of knowing what exactly "Hadji" had written on your uniform.  For all we know, our last names were all "Infidel" or worse.

[docbiochem33]

All of the allowable active duty/ reserve comp. are in the regs.  If one is unsure check there.  I used to wear my combat patch because the AF allowed it and did not actually ban it or phase it out, they just omitted it from the new regs.  Because there was not a phase out or ban it was allowed and many of us in the wing would wear it.  Then we were told we couldn't and then they put the U.S. Flag in its place so that ended it.

I understand why some AD/ reserve members have a bad view of CAP.  Members walk around like they are real officers when they aren't and want salutes.  Others refuse to follow regs and salute AD/ Reserve officers.  CAP members walk around looking like they just pulled a uniform from the floor after being covered with 100 pounds of junk.  CAP members that also try to tell AD people how to do their jobs.  Sure I would take advice from a person in the civilian occupation I was in (medic/ corpsman), but I am not going to listen to a person with basic first aid/ cpr tell me how to do my job.

I think to prevent this, CAP needs to do a better job training new members.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I understand why some AD/ reserve members have a bad view of CAP.  Members walk around like they are real officers when they aren't and want salutes.  Others refuse to follow regs and salute AD/ Reserve officers.  CAP members walk around looking like they just pulled a uniform from the floor after being covered with 100 pounds of junk.  CAP members that also try to tell AD people how to do their jobs.  Sure I would take advice from a person in the civilian occupation I was in (medic/ corpsman), but I am not going to listen to a person with basic first aid/ cpr tell me how to do my job.

I think to prevent this, CAP needs to do a better job training new members.

Based on this post, I understand why many CAP members have the view that AD/reserve members dislike them.  We get falsely accused of trolling for salutes when it is a miniscule percentage of the membership who actually does so.  I have never seen a CAP member refuse to salute an AD/reserve officer (remember, it's not a two way street; saluting is required for us but not for them).  AD/reserve members who look down the nose at CAP and call them "wannabes" for wearing the uniform.  AD people who just assume CAP members try to tell them how to do their jobs based on mostly anecdotal "evidence."  I have an honours-level degree in computer science but when a person whose only computer experience is with Wii or Nintendo tries to tell me how programming or hardware configuration works I just usually let them talk until they've dug themselves into a hole they can't get out of.

I think to prevent this, the AF needs to make its membership aware of who we are and what we do.  Currently they do a very bad job of that don't do that at all, and that's where most of the misconceptions about CAP come in.

[Eclipse]

^ +1.

[docbiochem33]

I have know of several members / former members trolling for salutes.  One I knew used to brag about going to the local AF base and having nothing on that showed him as a CAP officer other than his leather name tape on his flight suit.  He was bragging about how he actually put rank on his flight suit.

I had a Squadron Commander when I was a cadet who was enlisted, but would try to make people where he worked salute him when he was in CAP uniform. 

My brother is on AD and at an encampment at his facility there were 3 senior members who were all E-4 and below when in the service and they were picking out junior enlisted and trying to make them salute.  They tried with my brother and he put them in check by telling them he was in CAP and he knows the regs better then they do.

As far as Seniors not saluting, I actually had a wing staff member tell me that it was not required for him to salute any military officer.  We tried to show him the regulation, but he refused to even look.  The comment I got from a prior service marine was, "Wait until he passes that 2 star downstate and doesn't salute."

Uniforms are still a major issue and it will always be an issue.  If it wasn't then CAP wouldn't have had a portion of the level one on it.  The unit I was in had plenty of prior service people so we were tough on new seniors and cadets and would have classes on how to wear the uniform and how to press it.  This made our people look good, but we then took at hit as an whole when a new senior showed up to a function with a beard and earings up the auricle of his ear.  We all looked so good and then that with the media present.

Yes, the AF needs to tell people who we are, but we as a group need to make sure our people know what they are supposed to do and how they should act and look.

[Eclipse]

Citing .0001% of the membership who are idiots doesn't make the argument any more then citing that 100% of AD / reservists have a clue, either.

Spend 10 minutes on any active military forum with the search tool and you'll find posts by airman that will make your hair stand on end in terms of
attitude towards authority, uniform wear, and related issues.

Every organization has idiots, shaping attitudes or policy based on their actions is a bad idea.

[Nuke52]

I think to prevent this, CAP needs to do a better job training new members.

Maybe so, but...

Members walk around like they are real officers when they aren't and want salutes. 

seriously?

CAP officers are "real officers."  No, we're not commissioned by the president, and no, we're not military officers, but we are absolutely officers of the Civil Air Patrol. 

I assume by the fact that you're reading and posting here on CAP Talk that you're a current CAP member--otherwise why waste your time?--and assuming you are, I find it really odd that you have such a negative opinion of what you do while donating your valuable time to CAP.

[docbiochem33]

I am in and not as active as I once was.  Actually we are not really officers of CAP as those are the corporate boards and the legal sections.  We are officers in CAP and commissioned by CAP.  What I point to is to what I have seen all to many times with CAP members who want to act like they are AD officers.

Twice I have had enlisted members of the Army and AF get up to salute me when in uniform and I just told them not to worry about it since I could see that they were both busy.  I got a funny look from them, but then a thanks.  When I told them I was with CAP and a salute was not required they would say "Thanks" and continue with what they were doing.  Later one of them saw me outside, saluted, said, "Afternoon sir," and I returned the salute and he walked on.  When it happened though there were seniors who were asking why I didn't want the salute and that I deserved it.

The comment on deserving it is what really turned me off.  I didn't do anything to deserve the salute.  I was just there in a uniform that looked like an officers who would be in their chain of command.

People acting foolishly is also why it is sometimes hard for CAP units to get assistance from both the military and the local agencies.  I will say that it looks like some things are changing in this area and there has been some changes in who does what.  This may change some attitudes, but it will be an uphill battle.

[Eclipse]

We don't "deserve" the courtesy of a greeting?

Telling someone who is saluting you that they don't have to is part of the problem.  It is misguided and just causes further issues for everyone.

[68w20]

I am in and not as active as I once was.  Actually we are not really officers of CAP as those are the corporate boards and the legal sections.  We are officers in CAP and commissioned by CAP.  What I point to is to what I have seen all to many times with CAP members who want to act like they are AD officers.

Twice I have had enlisted members of the Army and AF get up to salute me when in uniform and I just told them not to worry about it since I could see that they were both busy.  I got a funny look from them, but then a thanks.  When I told them I was with CAP and a salute was not required they would say "Thanks" and continue with what they were doing.  Later one of them saw me outside, saluted, said, "Afternoon sir," and I returned the salute and he walked on.  When it happened though there were seniors who were asking why I didn't want the salute and that I deserved it.

The comment on deserving it is what really turned me off.  I didn't do anything to deserve the salute.  I was just there in a uniform that looked like an officers who would be in their chain of command.

People acting foolishly is also why it is sometimes hard for CAP units to get assistance from both the military and the local agencies.  I will say that it looks like some things are changing in this area and there has been some changes in who does what.  This may change some attitudes, but it will be an uphill battle.

Speaking as one of the enlisted members of the Army, saluting really isn't a big deal.  It's a courtesy, plain and simple.  I really don't understand why people get bent out of shape about it.  Level 1 teachers CAP Senior Members the personnel from whom they should expect salutes (typically only CAP Cadets, and from senior members of junior rank should the circumstances deem it appropriate to do so).  Any deviation from the common sense of what we're trained to do (ie, trolling for salutes) isn't the fault of CAP's culture. It's the fault of the individuals that are deviating from their training.  You seem adamant that this is an issue.  What, do you feel, is the solution?

[68w20]

We don't "deserve" the courtesy of a greeting?

Telling someone who is saluting you that they don't have to is part of the problem.  It is misguided and just causes further issues for everyone.

+1

[docbiochem33]

I am for a simple greeting.  A hello is what we were told to give if were busy with a detail when an officer approached.  I don't like a "Drop everything" type of deal. 

The other thing I have learned is that when I have done that to members of the services they are later more likely to salute and be friendly later.  One SP guy started to get up to salute me one time and I told him to stay doing what he was doing because he was on break turned out to help me about 15 minutes later.  I got lost in the area I was at and he saw me with that lost look on my face, walked up, asked me if I needed help.  He gave me directions, saluted, and told me to have a nice day.  The guy with me about lost it asking how I could garner a salute when the guy saw I was a CAP and not AF officer.  I simply responded that I was nice to the guy earlier.

[docbiochem33]

A simple solution to the problem is to make sure that members understand that they may receive a salute from some, but it is not required.  Also, they need to discipline cadets and senior members who act foolishly instead of looking past it.

When I was really active, I would tell all new members that they may receive a salute and they should return it, but be careful.  My commander who was also prior service would preach the point too. 

If we had a situation, we would often tell a member that all the information had been gathered and that if they continued we would be seeking assistance from higher command.  This was usually enough.

Unfortunetly, I still get a complaint or two from people I still know on one facility about one person was acting like a fool during an encampment.

[68w20]

I am for a simple greeting.  A hello is what we were told to give if were busy with a detail when an officer approached.  I don't like a "Drop everything" type of deal. 

How do you propose we inform the United States Armed Forces to extend a verbal greeting to CAP Senior Members rather than a salute?  Military personnel are trained to salute officers, which (in the US military) are typically indicated by insignia that is very similar in appearance to that worn on the majority of CAP's uniforms.  Should they run into CAP personnel (which I would wager is a fairly rare instance), they may be inconvenienced for a matter of seconds by saluting.  This really isn't a big deal, and in my opinion you're proposing a convoluted solution for a problem that's negligible at best.

A simple solution to the problem is to make sure that members understand that they may receive a salute from some, but it is not required.  Also, they need to discipline cadets and senior members who act foolishly instead of looking past it.

So essentially what's already taught in Level 1?  What sort of discipline do you propose? 

If we had a situation, we would often tell a member that all the information had been gathered and that if they continued we would be seeking assistance from higher command.  This was usually enough.

Unfortunetly, I still get a complaint or two from people I still know on one facility about one person was acting like a fool during an encampment.

How commonly was this a problem for your unit?  I've been in CAP for nearly a decade and spent a significant amount of time on military posts as both a CAP member and an enlisted Soldier, and I've never seen this happen.

_{edited for grammar}

[docbiochem33]

When I was a cadet it was a major problem.  I used to laugh at the seniors trolling.

When I was on AD I didn't see it because there were not really any big units near me.

Since I have been in I catch hell about once or twice a year.  I get complaints from my brother and a couple of former CAP members who are still in about every encampment other than the time I was out.  My brother ripped me for about 10 minutes over 2 seniors that were creating problems at one encampment.  They were asked to leave early.

I also have seen some of the responses of AD officers when I say I am with CAP.  I have been asked why I am shopping in clothing and sales and when I tell them that I am trying to buy stuff for my CAP uniform I just get a head shake and a look down.  When I ask if there is a problem they usually say no, but I know the look.

I have suggested discipline that includes having the member bring over the regulation and then reading it to the commander.  From there it goes up.

I will say that things are slowly getting better, but that is because some of the people who were problems are gone.  You can't tell a person not to do something or to do something when you have CAP Majors and LTC's walking around ignoring the regs.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Since I have been in I catch hell about once or twice a year.  I get complaints from my brother and a couple of former CAP members who are still in about every encampment other than the time I was out.  My brother ripped me for about 10 minutes over 2 seniors that were creating problems at one encampment.  They were asked to leave early.

Your brother and colleagues should not be ripping you.  It is not your responsibility.  It is the responsibility of the commander of the individuals in question.

I also have seen some of the responses of AD officers when I say I am with CAP.  I have been asked why I am shopping in clothing and sales and when I tell them that I am trying to buy stuff for my CAP uniform I just get a head shake and a look down.  When I ask if there is a problem they usually say no, but I know the look.

Who owns the problem?

They choose to take a crap attitude - and that's exactly what it is - toward CAP.

I have never encountered this, but should I ever do so, I would say to the officer in question, if they were senior in rank to me, "Sir, it is not logical nor fair to paint an entire organisation over the actions of a relative few.  If you have formal complaints, I respectfully suggest you take them up your chain of command and let CAP-USAF and relevant CAP personnel deal with them."  If they are equal or junior in rank to me, I would say, "Come on, you are simply not being fair.  You know as well as I do that there are idiots on AD, in the Guard and the Reserve (I was ANG), so don't just try to smear CAP with a goofball label."  I wouldn't be saying that as a senior officer to junior personnel.  I would be saying it as one human being to another, with the confidence of being correct because I know the regs (I have a copy of AFI 10-2701 in my CAP binder and know it well; I doubt many AD, Guard or Reserve could say the same), I know customs and courtesies and I know how to wear the uniform.

There is no bloody way I am going to let anyone, regardless of rank, scapegoat me for all the perceived sins of CAP.  Period.  I haven't done it, so I will not be the lightning rod for it.  Even if a National CC would tell me, "Yes, Captain, you have to let them say whatever they want to you; they're our parent organisation," I will say"Sir/Ma'am, you will be getting my resignation through proper channels.  Excuse me, I have better things to do like offering my services to an organisation that wants them."


I have been in CAP off-and-on since 1993.  I have never seen the kind of behaviour you claim to have seen, and I have attended CAP functions on SAC, ANG and AFRES installations.

In fact, one year at an airshow as a CAP 1st Lt an AFRES 1st Lt saluted me.  I returned the salute, and said "You don't have to salute me, we're both first lieutenants."  He said, "I know that.  I just wanted to show respect to a fellow officer."

I have suggested discipline that includes having the member bring over the regulation and then reading it to the commander.  From there it goes up.

I suggest that AFI 10-2701 be mandatory reading for all CAP personnel, regardless of rank.  It should be required reading with a closed-book test to pass Level I.  If the AF won't educate themselves enough to read their own bloody regulation that they wrote for and about us, then the least we can do is make sure we know what that regulation says.  It should also be posted on a bulletin board in every unit's meeting site (those who have permanent meeting sites).

I will say that things are slowly getting better, but that is because some of the people who were problems are gone.  You can't tell a person not to do something or to do something when you have CAP Majors and LTC's walking around ignoring the regs.

I don't know how old you are, but I will be 47 years old later this month and, as I said, my time with CAP dates back to 1993.  That was just after the berry boards were imposed by the AF (a measure like using a guillotine to cure a headache), punishing the entire organisation for the acts of a few fools.  We got our blue epaulettes (with "CAP") and hard rank taken away, and we are still being punished for something that happened over twenty years ago.

As I've said, a jerk is going to troll for a salute regardless of the colour of the epaulettes they are wearing, and I for one am sick of CAP still taking a whipping for the acts of a few.

[Private Investigator]

Well I am hoping that most CAP members will be more professional in 2013 and play it forward.

You can not fix the past and you can not fix stupid   

[Hawk200]

I didn't do anything to deserve the salute.

You're right, you don't deserve the salute. This part may come as a surprise: It's not about you.

I was just there in a uniform that looked like an officers who would be in their chain of command.

And this is why you receive salutes from military personnel. Whether you like the idea or not, you've been telling those military personnel to ignore their training. They're saluting the rank on your shoulder or collar, not you. The most professional thing you can do is to return it as sharply and professionally as it was rendered to you, and move on. Say "Thank you" when you do, it raises opinions of you and CAP. People don't want to be interrupted with "Oh, please don't salute lil' ol' me, it hurts my inferiority complex," they have things to do. Return it like a professional. Instead of trying to rebuke them, act like a professional, and press on.

Now, I'll agree that there are people that troll. I think it's wrong, and I've caught only a couple people in my fourteen years of CAP doing it. Haven't seen them since. But, I'm pretty sure word got out that there was a guy in CAP and in the military that caught them on the base. I made a point of bringing it up at the Commander's Calls that I attended.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Well I am hoping that most CAP members will be more professional in 2013 and play it forward.

You can not fix the past and you can not fix stupid   

Agreed on both points, but if you cannot fix the past, why are we still being punished by the AF for the actions of a few idiots years ago?  If we weren't, we would have hard rank and blue CAP epaulettes back, CAP cutouts on the lapels, and blue nameplates.

Whether you like the idea or not, you've been telling those military personnel to ignore their training. They're saluting the rank on your shoulder or collar, not you.

I ran into this a LOT more in the CG AUX than in CAP.  OK, they have an entirely different system of "offices" instead of ranks, with an alphabet-soup of abbreviations I never did learn.  But the fact is that they look a LOT more like the CG than we do the AF...except for silver braid instead of gold, and little "A" devices in the same hard rank devices that the active CG (and Navy, NOAA, USPHS) use.  I remember being saluted and addressed "Good afternoon, Ensign/Lieutenant," to which I returned the salute and thanked them...no biggie, one would think.  But I ran into a lot of my fellow Auxies who would tell me that when that happened I needed to stop the service member in question and tell them that no, I was not an Ensign or Lieutenant J.G., I was a civilian volunteer in the USCGAUX and it was incorrect for them to salute me (and, yes, I kept Member brass in my pocket for augmentation duty, which I never got to do).

Please, let's not go down that road.

[Hawk200]

I ran into this a LOT more in the CG AUX than in CAP.  OK, they have an entirely different system of "offices" instead of ranks, with an alphabet-soup of abbreviations I never did learn.  But the fact is that they look a LOT more like the CG than we do the AF...except for silver braid instead of gold, and little "A" devices in the same hard rank devices that the active CG (and Navy, NOAA, USPHS) use.  I remember being saluted and addressed "Good afternoon, Ensign/Lieutenant," to which I returned the salute and thanked them...no biggie, one would think.  But I ran into a lot of my fellow Auxies who would tell me that when that happened I needed to stop the service member in question and tell them that no, I was not an Ensign or Lieutenant J.G., I was a civilian volunteer in the USCGAUX and it was incorrect for them to salute me (and, yes, I kept Member brass in my pocket for augmentation duty, which I never got to do).

Please, let's not go down that road.

You did the professional thing, moved on with your business, and let them move on with theirs. I think the people that insist you tell people not to salute us (or in your case, you Auxies) are creating problems. The rank insignia and what it represents gets saluted, not the person.

Then there is the factor of someone not saluting and getting chewed by one of their own for not doing so. Is that fair to them? No, it's not. Before I woke up over this issue, I remember stopping a few Marines that saluted me. Their reply was "No, sir. We cannot comply. We salute the rank insignia. Period. It doesn't matter if you're not comissioned, you're still wearing the rank insignia." That was the big wakeup for me. Let them do as they're trained, and avoid creating issues over it. If we act professionally, they may feel we are deserving of it, anbd that's a pretty high complement.

[Eclipse]

I didn't do anything to deserve the salute.

Really?  Spending copius amounts of your free time serving your country in uniform isn't enough?  I strongly disagree, but so be it.  As hawk says, this isn't about you.

I was just there in a uniform that looked like an officers who would be in their chain of command.

The bold part is all that was necessary.

Return the salute, put the room at ease, or return the greeting and move on.  Don't insult them, CAP, or anyone else in uniform by making a huge deal out of a routine greeting, or trying to subjugate CAP to other services.  We are who we are, they are who they are.  We both have jobs to do, and neither is subordinate to the other.

This constant thread of CAP being somehow second class to military services is so counterproductive.  We should not be walking around, hat-in-hand, like we're just lucky to be there at all.  I'd say in at least 1/2 the cases where I've intersected with other military personnel, I was doing them a service, not the other way around, and on my own nickel.  In another 1/4, we were working together towards a common goal, side by side.  And in those cases where the equation was flipped, the relationship was just as professional as them assisting any other agency.

And Dobi, I'm not saying you didn't have issues, but based on my experiences, with commands and major activities on a large active-duty base from another service, I have to say that you must have had 80% of all the goobers in CAP in your AOR, because I've heard the wives tales, but haven't ever seen it and I've had a fair number of people in my AOR that would be inclined to that sort of behavior given the opportunity.  If anything, my experience has been the opposite, with CAP officers being so unaware of their surroundings that they don't return salutes and other courtesies because they
don't understand they are supposed to.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

You did the professional thing, moved on with your business, and let them move on with theirs. I think the people that insist you tell people not to salute us (or in your case, you Auxies) are creating problems. The rank insignia and what it represents gets saluted, not the person.

Thank you.  I would never do that.  At times I feel like there is an undercurrent within CAP that thinks if we just get rid of all uniforms with rank insignia on them, hey, presto, no more issues with saluting.  Stick everyone in polos, go back to the pre-1995 grey/white/blazer, problem solved.  That is an opinion I do not share.

This constant thread of CAP being somehow second class to military services is so counterproductive.  We should not be walking around, hat-in-hand, like we're just lucky to be there at all.

THANK YOU! :clap:

I have noticed a trend in that increasing since at least the mid-'90s, and it comes a lot more from our own membership than it does the AF.

I had a former unit CC who told me that when she went to MCSS she almost always did it in civvies (or polo) because she didn't want to do something that would make us look bad in the eyes of the AF, and she recommended that others do so.

This has got to stop.  I admit I've got to the point at times where I've been on base in a correctly worn uniform, but yet feel like I should wear some sandwich-board sign saying "NO, I'M NOT GOING TO TROLL FOR SALUTES" on one side and "I'M ONLY HERE TO GET CAP UNIFORM ITEMS, NOT TO USE THE BX/COMMISSARY" on the other.

Either this attitude has to stop, or else completely cut us loose from the AF.

[Rick-DEL]

Totally Agree. I am one who never trolls for a salute (from enlisted / lower officer)...but have absolutely no issue popping one out to an officer passing by when I do stop on base in uniform. Maybe it is out of habit from my USAF days...or out of total respect for those who serve. Most likely both.