Cadet Moustache??

[capchiro]

Although beat to death, can anyone show me a specific cite to a Reg that says a cadet can wear a moustache or not?  It is my understanding that cadets can wear moustaches if in Reg with the grooming standard, but I can't cite that exactly..

[Eclipse]

39-1.

There is no age specification or limit on grooming.

[MIKE]

There is for sideburns.  See Attachment 2.

[HGjunkie]

It doesn't specify wether or not cadets can wear a moustache. I have an interesting story about this exact problem...

[DakRadz]

Look, if a cadet wants to look like a 'tard, let them have a properly groomed mustache. There is no specification and regs are provided, so that's what they follow.

I've done it, and sometimes still do- I look like a 'tard, but it can be painful to shave sometimes. I keep it in regs. No one has ever said anything to me..

[Hawk200]

It doesn't specify wether or not cadets can wear a moustache.

The grooming standards for mustaches are for male members. The manual doesn't differentiate between cadets and seniors.

[IceNine]

Look, if a cadet wants to look like a 'tard, let them have a properly groomed mustache. There is no specification and regs are provided, so that's what they follow.

I've done it, and sometimes still do- I look like a 'tard, but it can be painful to shave sometimes. I keep it in regs. No one has ever said anything to me..

Must have missed the sensitivity training this year huh?

[DakRadz]

Look, if a cadet wants to look like a 'tard, let them have a properly groomed mustache. There is no specification and regs are provided, so that's what they follow.

I've done it, and sometimes still do- I look like a 'tard, but it can be painful to shave sometimes. I keep it in regs. No one has ever said anything to me..

Must have missed the sensitivity training this year huh?

Heh. That's my personal opinion of teenagers with mustaches. I've yet to meet someone who has more than peach fuzz on the lip. I wouldn't actually state it in such a manner to a cadet.

Like I said, I think it's stupid on me too. And most teens that I've dealt with are going for the hard-kewl factor.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I'm sorry but there is nothing hard-kewl about the Super Trooper look.

[DakRadz]

I'm sorry but there is nothing hard-kewl about the Super Trooper look.

That's why I think it's so hilarious..
I understand if you're running behind on time and merely made sure you were properly shaved, but trying to be hard-kewl with that mustache just makes it hard for me to maintain my bearing while inspecting.

[Flying Pig]

Do the regs address peach fuzz?  Should there be a whisker standard in the 39-1?  If I can see the skin through your brush, it aint no brush.

[jimmydeanno]

I just wish it would address the mustache standard for women.  I've seen some of our female members with thicker mustaches than I can grow...

[tsrup]

taken from 39-1

1-6. Dress and Appearance. All members of CAP must be well groomed and assure that their appearance at all times reflects credit upon themselves, CAP, and the Air Force.

a 13 year old's peach fuzz does not cut it for "well groomed".  Heck neither does what currently attempts to grow on my upper lip.

[Lt Oliv]

taken from 39-1

1-6. Dress and Appearance. All members of CAP must be well groomed and assure that their appearance at all times reflects credit upon themselves, CAP, and the Air Force.

a 13 year old's peach fuzz does not cut it for "well groomed".  Heck neither does what currently attempts to grow on my upper lip.

The regs address how the peach fuzz is trimmed and shaped. If the peach fuzz is trimmed and shaped appropriately, then the peach fuzz in within regs, whether we agree with the fashion statement being made or not.

Personally, I don't think cadets should be permitted facial hair.

Go to basic training, no facial hair at all, why should the cadets get the special treatment?

But hey, if little Johnny wants to grow a mad-cool "stache" then there is probably nothing we can do to talk him out of it. At least we can make sure little johnny makes it not look like TOTAL crap...

Also, as a side note. I'm of Greek-Italian descent. I was able to grow a full beard at 14.

[Eclipse]

Go to basic training, no facial hair at all, why should the cadets get the special treatment?

Um...CAP isn't basic training? Also it lasts up to 9 years and participation is on a part-time basis?

To stretch non-apropos analogies, the cadet program is much more akin to tech school than BMT, where Airmen get back to a much more "normal" life.

[bosshawk]

Isn't there a uniform argument lurking around here, somewhere?

[a2capt]

Well, there is uniformity to the viewpoints. 39-1 has been mentioned...

[Lt Oliv]

Go to basic training, no facial hair at all, why should the cadets get the special treatment?

Um...CAP isn't basic training? Also it lasts up to 9 years and participation is on a part-time basis?

To stretch non-apropos analogies, the cadet program is much more akin to tech school than BMT, where Airmen get back to a much more "normal" life.

I can't speak for the AF, but in Navy A Schools you are not permitted facial hair unless you were in the fleet first. If you head there straight out of boot, you have to be clean shaven.

It wasn't meant to be a direct analogy, I was pretty much stating that in the military while in training status, a restriction on facial hair is pretty common. But then again, someone said something, so I suppose Eclipse is morally obligated to express some sort of disagreement and attempt to demonstrate intellectual superiority.

[tsrup]

taken from 39-1

1-6. Dress and Appearance. All members of CAP must be well groomed and assure that their appearance at all times reflects credit upon themselves, CAP, and the Air Force.

a 13 year old's peach fuzz does not cut it for "well groomed".  Heck neither does what currently attempts to grow on my upper lip.

The regs address how the peach fuzz is trimmed and shaped. If the peach fuzz is trimmed and shaped appropriately, then the peach fuzz in within regs, whether we agree with the fashion statement being made or not.

Sure the peach fuzz is properly shaped and trimmed but does it meet the requirements of the second part of that statement?

If it looks like crap in uniform, then it makes the whole uniform look like crap, and that does not bring credit to our organization for the Air Force.  Plain and simple. 

[Lt Oliv]

taken from 39-1

1-6. Dress and Appearance. All members of CAP must be well groomed and assure that their appearance at all times reflects credit upon themselves, CAP, and the Air Force.

a 13 year old's peach fuzz does not cut it for "well groomed".  Heck neither does what currently attempts to grow on my upper lip.

The regs address how the peach fuzz is trimmed and shaped. If the peach fuzz is trimmed and shaped appropriately, then the peach fuzz in within regs, whether we agree with the fashion statement being made or not.

Sure the peach fuzz is properly shaped and trimmed but does it meet the requirements of the second part of that statement?

If it looks like crap in uniform, then it makes the whole uniform look like crap, and that does not bring credit to our organization for the Air Force.  Plain and simple.

Yes...it does meet the requirement. Because if the cadet's facial hair is within regs, then they are considered to be "well groomed."

[Hawk200]

Go to basic training, no facial hair at all, why should the cadets get the special treatment?

Um...CAP isn't basic training? Also it lasts up to 9 years and participation is on a part-time basis?

To stretch non-apropos analogies, the cadet program is much more akin to tech school than BMT, where Airmen get back to a much more "normal" life.

I can't speak for the AF, but in Navy A Schools you are not permitted facial hair unless you were in the fleet first. If you head there straight out of boot, you have to be clean shaven.

It wasn't meant to be a direct analogy, I was pretty much stating that in the military while in training status, a restriction on facial hair is pretty common. But then again, someone said something, so I suppose Eclipse is morally obligated to express some sort of disagreement and attempt to demonstrate intellectual superiority.

And as you pointed out, you can't speak for the Air Force. It's the Air Force Auxiliary, not the Navy Auxiliary. The Navy has it's ROTC programs, both junior and college level, where they can apply their separate standards as they wish. The Civil Air Patrol cadet program is not within their purview, and attempts to apply it are inappropriate at best, completely wrong at worst.

I don't agree with Eclipse at all times, but in this I do.

I've seen a few cadets sporting the "peach fuzz" mustache. It may be permitted in compliance with 39-1, but it doesn't mean that I might not smile in amusement if I see one that's rather too sparse to be called a true "mustache."

[Майор Хаткевич]

I'm almost 21, and I can't grow a thick upper lip carpet.

Heck, I shaved a week ago, and right now look like a hobo with "patches" that are thicker in some places than others.

My cheek/neck hair didn't even start to grow until early this year. Must be those final stages of puberty finally hitting. I doubt if I'll be able to grow a mustache/beard/goatee until I'm north of the 25th, if then.

In 5 years of active participation, I only saw one cadet with a decent 'stache. It was at Honor Guard Academy, and he was 18-19, and still looked weird. The AF HG Airmen told him to get rid of it. *not forced, but strongly suggested*. AF HG prohibit facial hair.

[Hawk200]

In 5 years of active participation, I only saw one cadet with a decent 'stache. It was at Honor Guard Academy, and he was 18-19, and still looked weird. The AF HG Airmen told him to get rid of it. *not forced, but strongly suggested*. AF HG prohibit facial hair.

I'd still say that's wrong to do. If our HG said "No facial hair", you've got two options: get rid of it, or don't be HG. However, we don't have that. Even the "strong suggestion" was inappropriate.

[Майор Хаткевич]

In 5 years of active participation, I only saw one cadet with a decent 'stache. It was at Honor Guard Academy, and he was 18-19, and still looked weird. The AF HG Airmen told him to get rid of it. *not forced, but strongly suggested*. AF HG prohibit facial hair.

I'd still say that's wrong to do. If our HG said "No facial hair", you've got two options: get rid of it, or don't be HG. However, we don't have that. Even the "strong suggestion" was inappropriate.

Would this not fall under the authority of command? Commanders can say which uniform/configuration will be worn (BDU covers, no baseball caps/ patches, etc). I'd go with a commanders call of no mustache for cadets as well.

[JayT]

A regular Air Force airman is never in the chain of command for a CAP cadet. Your chain of command starts and ends with CAP.

[tsrup]

A regular Air Force airman is never in the chain of command for a CAP cadet. Your chain of command starts and ends with CAP.

They can still tell someone if their 'stache looks funky

[Майор Хаткевич]

A regular Air Force airman is never in the chain of command for a CAP cadet. Your chain of command starts and ends with CAP.

They weren't in the chain of command, but this was at Honor Guard Academy, where they were instructors on the drill, the history, and traditions. One of the traditions is no mustaches. They suggested that he remove it, leaving it up to the cadet. He did so, and seemed happy with his choice. Last we kept in touch, about a year after the activity, he still kept shaving it.

[DakRadz]

A regular Air Force airman is never in the chain of command for a CAP cadet. Your chain of command starts and ends with CAP.

They weren't in the chain of command, but this was at Honor Guard Academy, where they were instructors on the drill, the history, and traditions. One of the traditions is no mustaches. They suggested that he remove it, leaving it up to the cadet. He did so, and seemed happy with his choice. Last we kept in touch, about a year after the activity, he still kept shaving it.

What I got out of this:
You felt the need to ask him about his mustache shaving routine.



To add a little substance to the post, I agree with the reasoning you've provided. Non-issue to me, given the circumstanced under which this occurred.

[ol'fido]

Although I have seen teen hair and dress styles that left me shaking my head, I have known teenagers that had very thick and full beards and did not look strange at all. Once again it is shaky ground to make generalizations about teens or cadets or any group for that matter.

This is also one of those instances where I agree with Bob. The regs make no difference on moustaches for cadets or seniors.

[Hawk200]

Would this not fall under the authority of command? Commanders can say which uniform/configuration will be worn (BDU covers, no baseball caps/ patches, etc). I'd go with a commanders call of no mustache for cadets as well.

A commander does not have the right to deny something that is permitted by the manual. Patches and insignia authorized by the manual are just that, authorized. Some are even required. A commander doesn't have the authority to change the basic manual.

The only time a commander is permitted to excercise denial or authorization of an item is when the publication says the commander may excercise or deny authorization of an item. Anything else is command failure. A commander is responsible for enforcing all the publications, not the bits and pieces they want to enforce.

[Hawk200]

One of the traditions is no mustaches.

This is a generalization used to rationalize an action. It's also invalid. The Air Force Honor Guard may have a tradition of no mustaches, but Civil Air Patrol does not. That was an Air Force Honor Guard member that overstepped his boundaries.

He did so, and seemed happy with his choice. Last we kept in touch, about a year after the activity, he still kept shaving it.

An easy way for the AF HG member was to simply say that in the AF the HG doesn't traditionally wear mustaches. I'd bet the cadet would have shaved it as soon as possible. The "strong suggestion" wouldn't have been needed, and the HG member wouldn't have overstepped his authority. Plus, the cadet would have made his own decision.
 

A regular Air Force airman is never in the chain of command for a CAP cadet. Your chain of command starts and ends with CAP.

Agreed.

[Майор Хаткевич]

The cadet DID make the decision himself. All the Airman did was say that the National AFHG restricts facial hair, and that the cadet should consider shaving it to look uniform with the other members on the team.

[DakRadz]

The cadet DID make the decision himself. All the Airman did was say that the National AFHG restricts facial hair, and that the cadet should consider shaving it to look uniform with the other members on the team.

This is exactly almost what Hawk said would be appropriate- and to a cadet, the mere suggestion is a "strong suggestion" to those of us who are trying to get the most from our instructors as such activities- no reason to rock the boat over extruded waste

Problem resolved, on both counts.

[Hawk200]

The cadet DID make the decision himself. All the Airman did was say that the National AFHG restricts facial hair, and that the cadet should consider shaving it to look uniform with the other members on the team.

And it would have been acceptable to simply note that Air Force Honor Guard doesn't wear them. If it had stopped there, it would have been fine.

The problem is where the individual "encouraged" the cadet to shave it. Presenting an informative statement like "Our Honor Guard traditionally does not wear mustaches" would have been fine. It was an overstep of the boundaries to add "You should shave it off so you look like the rest of the team." That statement is more directive than suggestive. It wasn't necessary, and it was wrong. The step too far is what made it wrong.

As I said before, if our Honor Guard had a directive not to wear them, fine. But we don't. So even suggesting it is wrong.

At the upper levels, we have to know when to stop speaking. It prevents problems.

[SarDragon]

Although I have seen teen hair and dress styles that left me shaking my head, I have known teenagers that had very thick and full beards and did not look strange at all. Once again it is shaky ground to make generalizations about teens or cadets or any group for that matter.

This is also one of those instances where I agree with Bob. The regs make no difference on moustaches for cadets or seniors.

That's the key phrase. One of the reasons the Navy got rid of beards was the appearance issue. Young (18-25 yo) sailors would grow something they called a beard, but was really just a collection of patches of facial hair. Some men can't grow decent looking beards at age 40.  Other guys can grow killer beards at 18.

I  have encountered two or three cadets with upper lip hair masquerading as a moustache, and have simply asked each if he thought it realistically complied with the "well groomed" requirement of the reg. Without fail, each gave me a weak smile, and said no. They showed up at the next meeting sans 'stache.

[capchiro]

SarDragon,
Would you have been surprised if you had been brought up on hazing charges by the IG if the cadets or their parents had filed a complaint that you had demeaned their cadet by making sarcastic comments about their moustache?  I would think that it would be a distinct possibility because you are in a position of authority, have made derogatory comments regarding their moustache, and overstepped your authority by replacing CAPM 39-1 regulations with your own opinions/biases.  Am I correct??  I am surmising you are a senior, but the facts wouldn't change if you were a cadet in command.

[Майор Хаткевич]

SarDragon,
Would you have been surprised if you had been brought up on hazing charges by the IG if the cadets or their parents had filed a complaint that you had demeaned their cadet by making sarcastic comments about their moustache?  I would think that it would be a distinct possibility because you are in a position of authority, have made derogatory comments regarding their moustache, and overstepped your authority by replacing CAPM 39-1 regulations with your own opinions/biases.  Am I correct??  I am surmising you are a senior, but the facts wouldn't change if you were a cadet in command.

Or...calling it like it is. If it looks bad...it looks bad.

Hawk,

He didn't say "You should shave it off so you look like the rest of the team."

He said "It's your choice, but consider shaving it for a more uniform appearance".

[MICT1362]

As I said before, if our Honor Guard had a directive not to wear them, fine. But we don't. So even suggesting it is wrong.

In no way was this Air Force Airmen out of bounds by making a "suggestion". 

Suggestion- the process of inducing a thought, sensation, or action in a receptive person without using persuasion and without giving rise to reflection in the recipient.

The Airmen gave the cadet something to think about.  We all know that there are things in the 39-1 that sometimes don't make sense.  As Commander, we often suggest that although you are allowed, you still probably shouldn't.  It is presented as a choice.

SarDragon,
Would you have been surprised if you had been brought up on hazing charges by the IG if the cadets or their parents had filed a complaint that you had demeaned their cadet by making sarcastic comments about their moustache?  I would think that it would be a distinct possibility because you are in a position of authority, have made derogatory comments regarding their moustache, and overstepped your authority by replacing CAPM 39-1 regulations with your own opinions/biases.  Am I correct??  I am surmising you are a senior, but the facts wouldn't change if you were a cadet in command.

Really?! I think that someone would be very surprised to be brought up on hazing charges for something of this nature.  That's like implying that by asking a specific cadet to do a task and not asking for a volunteer out of a group of cadets is hazing.  (I mean, you are singling them out, after all)  It is truly thoughts like this that cause our IG's to spend countless hours investigating events that have no merit of investigating.  If you can show me where someone has been investigated and found "guilty" in an instance like you are describing I would love to see it.



Now, back to topic, since we got so far off.  Yes it is allowed. Period.  It simply has to meet the guidelines stated in CAPM39-1.

-Paramedic

[capchiro]

I think he implied that the moustache was improper or inadequate and in one way was over riding the Reg's and in the other was demeaning the cadet's efforts to grow a moustache.  Either way, I feel that he was out of line and I would file a complaint on him.   To go one to two steps further with this, we had a cadet Captain that went to work an Airshow this weekend and a senior member Major told him not once, but four times to lose the moustache or lose the uniform, and even told him to shave with another cadet's used razor.  The cadet's moustache was within Reg's.  The cadet Captain was embarrassed, humiliated and demeaned in front of friends and peers.  The Major was a cadet in the 70's I have been told.  He comes from a cadet squadron..  Now, I have a cadet that was hazed.  Should the Major be punished?  If not how do we convince the cadet that actions have consequences and that there is justice in the world, specifically in our little corner of it??   

[Майор Хаткевич]

I think he implied that the moustache was improper or inadequate and in one way was over riding the Reg's and in the other was demeaning the cadet's efforts to grow a moustache.  Either way, I feel that he was out of line and I would file a complaint on him.   To go one to two steps further with this, we had a cadet Captain that went to work an Airshow this weekend and a senior member Major told him not once, but four times to lose the moustache or lose the uniform, and even told him to shave with another cadet's used razor.  The cadet's moustache was within Reg's.  The cadet Captain was embarrassed, humiliated and demeaned in front of friends and peers.  The Major was a cadet in the 70's I have been told.  He comes from a cadet squadron..  Now, I have a cadet that was hazed.  Should the Major be punished?  If not how do we convince the cadet that actions have consequences and that there is justice in the world, specifically in our little corner of it??

That's different from what SarDragon posted.

He had a talk with the cadets, and the cadets realized the folly of their ways.

The Major told the C/Capt to loose the 'stache or loose the suit...quite different and out of line.

[Hawk200]

Hawk,

He didn't say "You should shave it off so you look like the rest of the team."

He said "It's your choice, but consider shaving it for a more uniform appearance".

That's still sketchy. The smartest thing to say would have been simply "Air Force Honor Guard traditionally does not wear mustaches so that the team looks uniform." That's it. It would have left the cadet with his own thought process, and wouldn't have carried the weight of a suggestion or recommendation.

In no way was this Air Force Airmen out of bounds by making a "suggestion".

Yes, he was. He utilized his position to alter a cadets behavior into compliance with a tradition that is not our own. Air Force personnel do not have command of CAP personnel.

Suggestion- the process of inducing a thought, sensation, or action in a receptive person without using persuasion and without giving rise to reflection in the recipient.

Exactly. The process resulted in the action of a cadet to comply with an Air Force tradition, not a CAP one. And also stated in the definition, it didn't give give "rise to reflection." Shaky ground.

The Airmen gave the cadet something to think about.  We all know that there are things in the 39-1 that sometimes don't make sense.  As Commander, we often suggest that although you are allowed, you still probably shouldn't.  It is presented as a choice.

It may be presented as a choice in the manual, but when you start suggesting that people "shouldn't" do something, they take it as "don't do this." In which case, you're enforcing your own opinion, however weak the enforcement may be.

I take options all the time that are spelled out in the manual. I don't wear patches on my BDUs(other than the required minimum patches). I wear boots (both dress and combat) with blues(yeah, they're nicely shined). I wear ribbons on my blues(many people don't), and military badges on my BDUs(which some people just don't like). I don't wear anything on the right sleeve of my flightsuits(some people think that looks wierd). Some people have told me I "shouldn't" do some of those things, but it is permitted in the manual and not "suggested" by it as things I "shouldn't" do. Most people have a thought process of "I don't do that, so you shouldn't either." It's wrong.

There isn't even anything in 39-1 that mirrors 36-2903's verbage of "strongly encouraged." I would consider anything "strongly encouraged", but it's not a requirement.

Noboby should be making requirements out of options. If the cadet didn't shave his mustache, would he be docked for it on later inspections? If the answer is "yes", then it's not a "suggestion."

[Hawk200]

To go one to two steps further with this, we had a cadet Captain that went to work an Airshow this weekend and a senior member Major told him not once, but four times to lose the moustache or lose the uniform, and even told him to shave with another cadet's used razor.  The cadet's moustache was within Reg's.  The cadet Captain was embarrassed, humiliated and demeaned in front of friends and peers.

Definitely wrong on the major's part. If the mustache was out of regs, the major would have been right to tell him to get it within standards or "lose the suit." But, that's not the case. He attempted to enforce his own opinion on the cadet, not the publication.

Should the Major be punished?  If not how do we convince the cadet that actions have consequences and that there is justice in the world, specifically in our little corner of it??

I think he should be. And there is no way to convince cadets of that when it is obviously untrue.

[MICT1362]

To go one to two steps further with this, we had a cadet Captain that went to work an Airshow this weekend and a senior member Major told him not once, but four times to lose the moustache or lose the uniform, and even told him to shave with another cadet's used razor.  The cadet's moustache was within Reg's.  The cadet Captain was embarrassed, humiliated and demeaned in front of friends and peers.  The Major was a cadet in the 70's I have been told.  He comes from a cadet squadron..  Now, I have a cadet that was hazed.  Should the Major be punished?  If not how do we convince the cadet that actions have consequences and that there is justice in the world, specifically in our little corner of it??   

This is hazing.  The SM Major told the cadet that his option is the mustache or the uniform.  Seems pretty cut and dry.  If I were you, I would council the Major on the proper policy.



However, in the other instance, there appears to be no such directive.  An Instructor (who is in command of that specific activity) explained the AF tradition.  Suggested that the cadet be more uniform with his team, and left it at that.  The cadet chose to shave the 'stache, and even seemed happy with his decision...  So, at what point did he feel hazed?  I have read nothing to that fact.  And, it is a big reach for someone to bring charges against another based on what they think a third person might have felt like.  You don't know how they felt, unless you ask, and not a single one of these posts has stated that "after speaking with this cadet..."



Hawk,

We are just going to have to agree to disagree.  I'm not going to get into a knock down drag out over an issues that neither of us was present to witness.  It's just not worth it.

[Eclipse]

One nuance, which probably doesn't change the dynamic of a Cadet interacting with a USAF Honor Guardsman, etc., but no one but CAP personnel are ever in command of, or responsible for, CAP cadets (or seniors for that matter).

Obviously there are always PIC's controlling access to facilities, running training, etc., but it is always a CAP senior member in ultimate command of the people, and our regs trump anyone else's in regards to uniform wear, grooming, etc.  Someone in the military in a position of authority can always invite us to GTFO, but that is as far as their authority goes.

Might not change how a cadet reacts, but would certainly be brought up in the hearing if things get "exciting".

[MICT1362]

So your saying that the Air Force doesn't tell NHQ what they can and can't do?  If that was the case, we wouldn't have to wait for approval from them to do things, like uniform changes...  Ultimately the AF is at the top of our CoC.  If they weren't, we wouldn't have United States Air Force Auxiliary attached to our name.  Maybe I'm wrong.  It's happened before.

[NCRblues]

So when we send the cadets to the HG academy, and the AFHG grades them, the ones that lost can claim it doesn't matter because the AF is never in charge right?

Isn't this how we got in the whole TPU/CSU debacle in the first place? A pissing match with the AF from one of our past commanders...i seem to remember that the CSU caused a lot of heartburn (some of you refuse to believe it, but its true)

I guess when the AF comes in and does inspections, if you fail you can just blow it off because they are not in charge right?

We can tell the AF where to stick it, but, kiss your aircraft goodbye, oh and vehicles and AF missions, and those nice blue uniforms that most of us like to put on when we are at a function. The AF is very very much in charge, some of you just cant admit that because you dont like it....

[Eclipse]

I knew when I wrote that some people would immediately pipe up about the USAF being in the chain.  This is not about trying to win
a contest over who is boss, it is about the reality of the law, regulations, and our charter.

1) The USAF is not in the direct chain of CAP's command except for AFAMS. 

2) The inspection oversight is fairly limited to the scope of waste and abuse of property and funds provided by the appropriations.

3) The USAF has authority over uniform items as granted in the AFI's governing CAP.  That does not equal carte blanche authority over operations and activities.

4) In your specific example, the grades provided by the AFHG are obviously important to the cadets involved, but it confers no real credit within or outside of CAP.

If you can show otherwise beyond hearsay or opinion, have at it.

This has nothing to do with respect, inter-organizational cooperation, or the deference we should be paying to the USAF as their little brother.  This is about the regulatory authority of the USAF over CAP, which was reduced significantly with the legal changes in the late 90's.

[SarDragon]

SarDragon,
Would you have been surprised if you had been brought up on hazing charges by the IG if the cadets or their parents had filed a complaint that you had demeaned their cadet by making sarcastic comments about their moustache?  I would think that it would be a distinct possibility because you are in a position of authority, have made derogatory comments regarding their moustache, and overstepped your authority by replacing CAPM 39-1 regulations with your own opinions/biases.  Am I correct??  I am surmising you are a senior, but the facts wouldn't change if you were a cadet in command.

Yes, I am a senior, as evidenced in my sig, with a beard and moustache. How is the question - "Do you think your facial hair realistically complies with the "well groomed" requirement of the reg?" - hazing? I asked the cadet what he thought about his appearance, and he responded. The general attitude was, "Well, I tried it to see how far I could go, and it probably wasn't really a good idea."

There was no sarcasm involved, nor any intent to demean.

[ol'fido]

I think we're confusing the authority the USAF has over CAP as an institution with whatever authority individual airmen may or may not have at a specific activity.

[Hawk200]

We are just going to have to agree to disagree.  I'm not going to get into a knock down drag out over an issues that neither of us was present to witness.  It's just not worth it.

I'm not making a fight out of it, simply addressing the basic facts. According to USAFaux2004, he said "It's your choice, but consider shaving it for a more uniform appearance". I assumed from that statement that USAFaux2004 made, he was present when the "suggestion" was made.

So your saying that the Air Force doesn't tell NHQ what they can and can't do?

The Air Force can and does. One member of the Air Force Honor Guard does not represent the Air Force. The Air Force has never told CAP that our Honor Guard personnel may not have mustaches.

Now, if it had been the commander of CAP-USAF, or whatever command CAP is currently aligned under, then the "suggestion" carries weight and would most likely be enacted in some disseminated policy shortly thereafter. If you're on an AF base and you do something that is in direct violation of Air Force directives, that's different. This was not such a case. It was a case of one person "encouraging" a change based on his personal history, not that of the Air Force.

I think we're confusing the authority the USAF has over CAP as an institution with whatever authority individual airmen may or may not have at a specific activity.

This is the whole issue. One person versus the Air Force.

[capchiro]

SarDragon, we may be comparing apples and oranges.  Are implying that the cadets moustaches were outside the Reg's as far as appearance or are you implying that this is how you handle any cadet that shows up with a moustache?

[SarDragon]

SarDragon, we may be comparing apples and oranges.  Are implying that the cadets moustaches were outside the Reg's as far as appearance or are you implying that this is how you handle any cadet that shows up with a moustache?

Generally, the latter. If the cadet answers yes, I let it go, even if I really think it looks like crap. At some point, peer pressure usually prevails, and the fuzz disappears. If the cadet answers no, he knows what the expected course of action is, and the fuzz disappears.

[Krapenhoeffer]

Okay, so the way I see it, a CAP SM is in charge of the HGA, correct? USAF HG acts as instructors, at the request of CAP in general, and HGA/CC in particular.

The way I see it, so long as the direction/order/suggestion/whatever doesn't go against our regulations, any " " would be an indirect " " from the HGA/CC, or am I wrong completely?

[Hawk200]

Okay, so the way I see it, a CAP SM is in charge of the HGA, correct? USAF HG acts as instructors, at the request of CAP in general, and HGA/CC in particular.

The way I see it, so long as the direction/order/suggestion/whatever doesn't go against our regulations, any " " would be an indirect " " from the HGA/CC, or am I wrong completely?

Seems a little off base, but it may be how I'm interpreting what you've written rather than what you specifically meant.

Does a suggestion from an AF Honor Guard member during the Honor Guard Academy reflect the authority or opinion of the Honor Guard Academy commander? If that's what you're asking, no it doesn't necessarily reflect the HGA/CC.  The "suggestion" made was not in agreement with our publication. That's the problem.

Some people think that no matter what, an airmans "suggestions" are to be followed without question. It doesn't track. We have our own pubs on things, which are generally approved by the Air Force, so an individual member of the Air Force doesn't have the authority to change it. Now, I am not saying that if Airman Joe Blow says "Don't cross that rope!" that we can ignore him. That's a completely different situation, and not relevant to this discussion.

There are some Air Force commanders that don't like our uniform configurations, but most of them don't try to change/countermand our published directives. It appears that one individual member of the AF Honor Guard tried to do so. From the sounds of it, one person here may have been present. I'm starting to think that we need more of the story.

[tsrup]

Okay, so the way I see it, a CAP SM is in charge of the HGA, correct? USAF HG acts as instructors, at the request of CAP in general, and HGA/CC in particular.

The way I see it, so long as the direction/order/suggestion/whatever doesn't go against our regulations, any " " would be an indirect " " from the HGA/CC, or am I wrong completely?

Seems a little off base, but it may be how I'm interpreting what you've written rather than what you specifically meant.

Does a suggestion from an AF Honor Guard member during the Honor Guard Academy reflect the authority or opinion of the Honor Guard Academy commander? If that's what you're asking, no it doesn't necessarily reflect the HGA/CC.  The "suggestion" made was not in agreement with our publication. That's the problem.

Some people think that no matter what, an airmans "suggestions" are to be followed without question. It doesn't track. We have our own pubs on things, which are generally approved by the Air Force, so an individual member of the Air Force doesn't have the authority to change it. Now, I am not saying that if Airman Joe Blow says "Don't cross that rope!" that we can ignore him. That's a completely different situation, and not relevant to this discussion.

There are some Air Force commanders that don't like our uniform configurations, but most of them don't try to change/countermand our published directives. It appears that one individual member of the AF Honor Guard tried to do so. From the sounds of it, one person here may have been present. I'm starting to think that we need more of the story.

Or maybe since the story is all second hand, we're blowing this way out of proportion.

Realistically, it was probably an Airman pointing out that a cadet's upper lip coat was kind of dorky.  Not some Airman master plan to undermine and change our uniform manual.

Heck it could have gone down like this:  "You guys are allowed mustaches?  wow, we aren't allowed to in the AF honor guard"
Cadet, starry eyed in wonder of an Active Duty Honor Guard Airman, immediately goes to the bathroom to shave so he can be just like the real deal.

That seems to me to be the more likely scenario..

[Майор Хаткевич]

Wasn't there that guide for good appearance by Chief Chiafos (SP?) a while back? The one where he says most bases will tell new incoming airmen to get rid of the stache because they are out of style for the most part?

[Hawk200]

Wasn't there that guide for good appearance by Chief Chiafos (SP?) a while back? The one where he says most bases will tell new incoming airmen to get rid of the stache because they are out of style for the most part?

Never heard of such a thing. Got a few friends still active Air Force, I'll ask.

Heck it could have gone down like this:  "You guys are allowed mustaches?  wow, we aren't allowed to in the AF honor guard"
Cadet, starry eyed in wonder of an Active Duty Honor Guard Airman, immediately goes to the bathroom to shave so he can be just like the real deal.

That scenario I wouldn't really have much heartburn over. It doesn't overtly suggest anything. It's simply an informative statement. If that's the way it happened, it's not really a problem. It's more a case of persuasion than direction.

[DC]

Wasn't there that guide for good appearance by Chief Chiafos (SP?) a while back? The one where he says most bases will tell new incoming airmen to get rid of the stache because they are out of style for the most part?

Don't know about specific 'stache advice, but the Gorilla Guide can be accessed here.

[lordmonar]

We tore the gorilla guide when it came out.......and everything that was wrong with it then......is still wrong now.

Bottom line......if it is in regs.....it it within regs.

I may look stupid (or not) but we can't regulate stupid.

[Spaceman3750]

I may look stupid (or not) but we can't regulate stupid.

Some days I wonder if you can fix it either  :angel:

[Майор Хаткевич]

I may look stupid (or not) but we can't regulate stupid.

Some days I wonder if you can fix it either  :angel:

Navy did just fine by getting rid of the beards.

Of course, some folks get to grow "beards" because shaving irritates their skin...saw a lot of that at Great Lakes on the NTC Side.

[DakRadz]

They burn the hair off of a cow's udders on farms (thanks Dirty Jobs!)- think that could be utilized for recruits/cadets?

[SarDragon]

I may look stupid (or not) but we can't regulate stupid.

Some days I wonder if you can fix it either  :angel:

Navy did just fine by getting rid of the beards.

Easy for you to say. You weren't there. My view differs significantly.

Of course, some folks get to grow "beards" because shaving irritates their skin...saw a lot of that at Great Lakes on the NTC Side.

And there are very specific standards for those "beards". Shaving irritates my face, too, but I don't fit into their criteria for not shaving.

[Grumpy]

It doesn't specify wether or not cadets can wear a moustache.

The grooming standards for mustaches are for male members. The manual doesn't differentiate between cadets and seniors.

It would sure be interesting to see a female member with a musstache.  Yuck! 

[EMT-83]

Let me see if I can find a picture of my mother-in-law.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I may look stupid (or not) but we can't regulate stupid.

Some days I wonder if you can fix it either  :angel:

Navy did just fine by getting rid of the beards.

Easy for you to say. You weren't there. My view differs significantly.

Of course, some folks get to grow "beards" because shaving irritates their skin...saw a lot of that at Great Lakes on the NTC Side.

And there are very specific standards for those "beards". Shaving irritates my face, too, but I don't fit into their criteria for not shaving.

I saw a lot of young guys who were just out of RTC with "beards" because their skin is too sensitive for shaving. Again, the reason for doing away with the beards were folks who can't grow a beard if their life depended on it.

[HGjunkie]

Let me see if I can find a picture of my mother-in-law.

DO NOT WANT. 

[SarDragon]

I may look stupid (or not) but we can't regulate stupid.

Some days I wonder if you can fix it either  :angel:

Navy did just fine by getting rid of the beards.

Easy for you to say. You weren't there. My view differs significantly.

Of course, some folks get to grow "beards" because shaving irritates their skin...saw a lot of that at Great Lakes on the NTC Side.

And there are very specific standards for those "beards". Shaving irritates my face, too, but I don't fit into their criteria for not shaving.

I saw a lot of young guys who were just out of RTC with "beards" because their skin is too sensitive for shaving. Again, the reason for doing away with the beards were folks who can't grow a beard if their life depended on it.

Taken to PM.

[Майор Хаткевич]

It was? I received no PM if so.

[SarDragon]

Let me look.


[edit]
Sent again. The first one went out at 13:07 local.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Let me look.


[edit]
Sent again. The first one went out at 13:07 local.

Received both a few hours apart. Server lag...

[DavidB]

Ok

My Group Commander is an old navy guy and we always give him a hard time about this in not the navy we follow air force rules, even though we are the senior service.  As far as mustache for cadets they are not forbidden by the regulation per CAPR39-1:

Mustache must be neatly trimmed.  Must not extend downward beyond the lip line of the upper lip or extend sideways beyond a vertical line drawn upward from the corner of the mouth.

now deciding whats neatly trimmed and whats not is subjective.

[Hawk200]

now deciding whats neatly trimmed and whats not is subjective.

Not really. People know what a badly trimmed mustache looks like just as easily as a bad haircut. It may take a while for some people to learn it, but it's not difficult.

[SarDragon]

Additionally, three neatly trimmed, but disconnected patches of hair does not a proper moustache make.

[Hawk200]

Additionally, three neatly trimmed, but disconnected patches of hair does not a proper moustache make.

Agreed. Either you've got the hair or you don't.

[Spaceman3750]

(Pay attention only to the moustache part)


This is an OK moustache (minus the rest of the facial hair).



This moustache is NOT ok for CAP purposes.

Use your best judgment in between.

[SarDragon]

And I got it!

[SarDragon]

(Pay attention only to the moustache part)


This is an OK moustache (minus the rest of the facial hair).

That is NOT an OK moustache for CAP purposes. It extends too far beyond the corners of the mouth.

[Eclipse]

Actually that mustache is not ok, as the edges extend below the lip.

Beat me to it...

[SarDragon]

Oh, it's not just the below the lip part. It's way too wide.

It "will not extend downward beyond the lip line of the upper lip or extend sideways beyond a vertical line drawn upward from the corner of the mouth."

[manfredvonrichthofen]

If you don't know the reg then you shouldn't be doing it either (not a personal attack on anyone here at all). If you cannot tell the person who is questioning your mustache the reg then don't wear it. It is a small (very small) statement of how to properly wear the mustache then just make it easy on yourself and don't wear it. Also, there is a pretty good sketch of what the mustache should look like, look in the mirror and hold that picture up and compare, if they don't look the same make it so or get rid of it.

[Spaceman3750]

Actually that mustache is not ok, as the edges extend below the lip.

Beat me to it...

Looked closer, you're right, goshdarnit...

[DavidB]

now deciding whats neatly trimmed and whats not is subjective.

Not really. People know what a badly trimmed mustache looks like just as easily as a bad haircut. It may take a while for some people to learn it, but it's not difficult.

Ok I will say that people will know what a badly trimmed mustache looks like I had to mention that as I have grown a mustache and have chosen not to wear the Air Force Uniform while I have the mustache, just the CAP distinctive uniform.  But the regulation dose not make a distinction between cadet and seniors as long as the follow the regulation.