CAP Decorations: DSM, ESA, MSA, etc.

[DBlair]

A complaint I've heard from group and wing levels isn't putting folks in for higher awards than appropriate, it's getting folks put in for ANY awards.

Seems to be an unfortunately common issue.

[HGjunkie]

Here is the CSAF, General Schwartz (wearing four to a line):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Norton_A_Schwartz_2008_2.jpg

You think that's a lot, check this guy out

[DakRadz]

Here is the CSAF, General Schwartz (wearing four to a line):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Norton_A_Schwartz_2008_2.jpg

You think that's a lot, check this guy out

Except I'll bet you a Red Lobster (or fancy eatery of your choice) that that guy is a PJ. He's most likely earned every one of those medals and ribbons.

P.S. I say this because of the Freefall Badge- earned through completion of a school which is part of PJ training.

[Hawk200]

Except I'll bet you a Red Lobster (or fancy eatery of your choice) that that guy is a PJ. He's most likely earned every one of those medals and ribbons.

Yeah, that and the link says "KyleSaulsPJ" as part of it.

P.S. I say this because of the Freefall Badge- earned through completion of a school which is part of PJ training.

They're not the only folks that get Freefall Badges.

[DakRadz]

Except I'll bet you a Red Lobster (or fancy eatery of your choice) that that guy is a PJ. He's most likely earned every one of those medals and ribbons.

Yeah, that and the link says "KyleSaulsPJ" as part of it.

P.S. I say this because of the Freefall Badge- earned through completion of a school which is part of PJ training.

They're not the only folks that get Freefall Badges.

Upon my integrity, I didn't look at the link other than the "this guy" part.

I know this, sir, but I was willing to risk it and make that bet. The odds were good enough for me (and heck, I'd've had an excuse to meet a fellow CT/ same exact region (SER, ha-get it?) cadet AND eat at Red Lobster).

[RVT]

Here is the CSAF, General Schwartz (wearing four to a line):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Norton_A_Schwartz_2008_2.jpg

You think that's a lot, check this guy out

Am I going blind, or do BOTH of them have ARMY commendation medals?

Also, that NCO should look into the still authorized but seldom seen Miniature ribbons before hes wearing his jump wings on his back.

For those who don't know as you have probably never seen them, "Miniature Ribbons"  are the same height as regular ones, but are based on the cloth a miniature medal hangs from, as opposed to full size ribbons that are based on what a full size medal hangs from.  In the Army I would see them on people who had more ribbons than would fit if they wore full size, as they fit 5 across in the same space where you can normally only wear 3.

A moot point here as they are not authorized for CAP and nobody makes them anyway, and you cannot mix full & miniature.

[spacecommand]

Nope you are not blind:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norton_A._Schwartz#Awards_and_decorations

[HGjunkie]

Here is the CSAF, General Schwartz (wearing four to a line):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Norton_A_Schwartz_2008_2.jpg

You think that's a lot, check this guy out

Except I'll bet you a Red Lobster (or fancy eatery of your choice) that that guy is a PJ. He's most likely earned every one of those medals and ribbons.

P.S. I say this because of the Freefall Badge- earned through completion of a school which is part of PJ training.

Yep. all the pictures I've seen of PJs have that many ribbons or more. Their badges literally go up to the seam on the top of their jacket. Don't get me wrong, I have the utmost respect for PJs.

[Hawk200]

...nobody makes them anyway....

I know of one place that does, but they'll only sell you an assembled rack.

CAP minis would be easy.

[RVT]

...nobody makes them anyway....

I know of one place that does, but they'll only sell you an assembled rack.

CAP minis would be easy.

I'm interested!  My current rack(s) came from ultrathin as it is, I'm no longer interested in putting together a jigsaw set of pieces that I will probably get wrong anyway.  I could never get those triangle thingys to go on the ribbons right.

While 39-3 doesn't mention mini ribbons its probably just because nobody thought of it.  Put a couple of decades in CAP in  addition to a full career in any one of the armed forces and your stuff won't fit.  I'm "short stacking" already on my blues.

[Hawk200]

I'm interested!  My current rack(s) came from ultrathin as it is, I'm no longer interested in putting together a jigsaw set of pieces that I will probably get wrong anyway.  I could never get those triangle thingys to go on the ribbons right.

I found them again: Medals of America. They only mount them. I did call them once to ask if they made them as slides. They didn't. I'm tempted to call and ask if they would consider making them up as slides, it would be easy.

Heads up, they are spendy. 

While 39-3 doesn't mention mini ribbons its probably just because nobody thought of it.  Put a couple of decades in CAP in  addition to a full career in any one of the armed forces and your stuff won't fit.  I'm "short stacking" already on my blues.

When the original 39-3 was drafted, they probably didn't exist. I'm in the same boat, especially after picking up a handful on the last deployment. About to replace one PD with another. At least I won't need a new rack.

[Major Carrales]

The Only time I have ever seen "mini-ribbons" was at the Smithsonia, and I pointed them out to James Colgan who was with me.  They were on Ike's Service Coat...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mbell1975/4241296821/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/10357196@N03/3574049415/

Hoping these photos are not changed.

I have never seen them, or ones like them, for sale anywhere.  I take it back...just found them at Medals of America...

http://www.medalsofamerica.com/Build--i-Mini-Ribbons

[Hawk200]

The Only time I have ever seen "mini-ribbons" was at the Smithsonia, and I pointed them out to James Colgan who was with me.  They were on Ike's Service Coat...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mbell1975/4241296821/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/10357196@N03/3574049415/

I don't think those would qualify as true miniature ribbons. They seem a little too short, and a little too long (or maybe that's the perspective created). According to AFI 36-2903, minis are 11/16 x 3/8. Regulars are 1 3/8x3/8. (The 1 3/8 is standard across the branches, so it's probably set by DOH.)

I have seen some of the older uniforms in various museums that have had some seriously different dimensions on ribbons. One jacket in the Wings over the Rockies in Colorado had the "ribbons" embroidered into the jacket. These "ribbons" were probably over a half inch in height. Another jacket had the same thing done to it, but the ribbons were about the right height, however not quite the right width (shorter). The older the item is, the more likely it is have non standard sizes.

It's kinda fascinating to see some of the older uniforms. They have different dimensions on things than we're all used to. Can blow your mind a little.

[DBlair]

Wow, it is interesting how this turned into another uniform discussion. 

[Major Carrales]

The Only time I have ever seen "mini-ribbons" was at the Smithsonia, and I pointed them out to James Colgan who was with me.  They were on Ike's Service Coat...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mbell1975/4241296821/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/10357196@N03/3574049415/

I don't think those would qualify as true miniature ribbons. They seem a little too short, and a little too long (or maybe that's the perspective created). According to AFI 36-2903, minis are 11/16 x 3/8. Regulars are 1 3/8x3/8. (The 1 3/8 is standard across the branches, so it's probably set by DOH.)

I have seen some of the older uniforms in various museums that have had some seriously different dimensions on ribbons. One jacket in the Wings over the Rockies in Colorado had the "ribbons" embroidered into the jacket. These "ribbons" were probably over a half inch in height. Another jacket had the same thing done to it, but the ribbons were about the right height, however not quite the right width (shorter). The older the item is, the more likely it is have non standard sizes.

It's kinda fascinating to see some of the older uniforms. They have different dimensions on things than we're all used to. Can blow your mind a little.

I've seen all sorts of things in historical contexts.  Ranging from the ribbons being sort of "cut and sewn" onto service coats, to large almost "billboard" like ribbons more in line with modern German ribbons.  I've seen some embroidered or sewn onto a patch and that inturn sewn on a jacket.

The Ike ribbons here are, if taken a close look at, similar in size to a mini-medal in width, but unusually small in height.

[Hawk200]

I've seen all sorts of things in historical contexts.  Ranging from the ribbons being sort of "cut and sewn" onto service coats, to large almost "billboard" like ribbons more in line with modern German ribbons.  I've seen some embroidered or sewn onto a patch and that inturn sewn on a jacket.

The Ike ribbons here are, if taken a close look at, similar in size to a mini-medal in width, but unusually small in height.

The differences can be rather fascinating can't they? I think that's why history has such an allure to it, regardless of what subject it's covering.

[arajca]

Wow, it is interesting how this turned into another uniform discussion. 

You've been here long enough to know that almost ANY dicussion can turn into a uniform discussion.

[DBlair]

Wow, it is interesting how this turned into another uniform discussion. 

You've been here long enough to know that almost ANY dicussion can turn into a uniform discussion.

LOL! This is very true.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

They don't do it any more but Britain and its Dominions used to sew their ribbons directly on the uniform:

http://www.rathbonemuseum.com/AUSTRALIA/AUDeLaRue/AUDeLaRue.html
http://www.rathbonemuseum.com/CANADA/CANMax/CANMax.html

They even sewed them onto battledress uniforms:
http://www.rathbonemuseum.com/GB/FAA/FAABD/FAABD.html

British ribbons are a little shorter than American ones so when you had USAAF guys who had served in the RAF/RCAF and wore their British decorations on U.S. uniform, they tended to stick out.

Even though the Brits are a lot stingier about awarding "gongs" than we are, when they gottem, they gottem, as this pic of Prince Philip in Canada recently shows:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4122/4749674158_6ff4d57a24_b.jpg

Here's an image I found of old CAP ribbons...in some cases the name stayed the same but the ribbon changed...some look kinda cartoonish, I think.

http://www.frontiernet.net/~ericbush/US/cap_old.html

Back then, we had Red, Green, White and Blue service ribbons.

[DBlair]

Considering that the Meritorious Service Award, Commander's Commendation Award, and Achievement Award are the most common that are actually awarded to regular members, I was curious whether there are thoughts as to what qualifies one decoration over another.

Granted, there are specific criteria (as noted below) noted in the regulations, but even considering this, each seems to blend into the other without much real distinction between them as to awarding criteria, other than personal opinion. Also, there is debate as to what constitutes "normal duty performance" in the award criteria.

So, I was curious, what sort of performance (any examples come to mind?) would justify nominating a member for one decoration over another?

(This is regarding members below the level of Wing Directors or other Wing Staff, such as members at the Squadron or Group levels, as previous discussion essentially concluded that Wing Staff and above seem to be awarded decorations as end-of-tour awards.)


Criteria as per CAPR39-3:

e. Meritorious Service Award. Outstanding achievement or meritorious service rendered specifically on behalf of CAP. Superior performance of normal duties does not, in itself, constitute automatic justification for the Meritorious Service Award. Awards should be restricted to the recognition of achievements and services which are clearly outstanding and unmistakably exceptional when compared to similar achievements and accomplishments of personnel of like rank and responsibilities. In instances where many individuals are affiliated with an exceptionally successful program, project, or mission, the Meritorious Service Award should be awarded to the relatively few individuals whose contributions clearly stand out from the others and who have contributed most to the success of the program.

f. Commander's Commendation Award. Outstanding duty performance where achievements and services are clearly and unmistakably exceptional when compared to similar achievements and service of members of like rank and responsibility. In instances where several members are affiliated with an exceptionally successful program, project or mission, the Commander's Commendation Award will be awarded only to those who clearly stand out from the others and who contributed most to the success of the program. The Exceptional Service Award and the Meritorious Service Award differ from the Commanders' Commendation Award in that they recognize achievements and services significantly above and beyond normal duty performance.

g. CAP Achievement Award. Presented for outstanding service to the unit, group or wing. This award may be approved by the group commander. If a group structure does not exist, the wing commander may designate who has the authority to approve this award.