CAP Decorations: DSM, ESA, MSA, etc.

[DBlair]

Regarding the CAP decorations of Distinguished Service Medal, Exceptional Service Award, and to a certain extent the Meritorious Service Award, I was wondering if anyone knew of actual situations where these were awarded beyond merely end-of-tour type decorations for certain echelon commanders/staff officers.

In a discussion recently, some local members noted that it seems to be the only people who get these decorations are members who have served in certain roles, and not that they have actually done anything specific or notable beyond just having such a position. Examples given were Wing, Region, National Commanders, National CAC Chairman, and certain other positions.

I keep hearing the "You have to be the [insert position title] to get that award" comments being made when people ask about certain decorations and so I figured I would ask for your opinions.

So, I'm curious... do you feel these are end-of-tour type decorations tied to certain higher positions, or are they ever actually awarded for certain deeds/service and thus actually attainable through member efforts, etc?

It seems that in theory per the regulation, they are awarded for deeds/service, but it seems difficult to cite examples of recipients other than those in certain staff roles. Any thoughts?

[SJFedor]

I've heard of MSA's awarded back when I was in TN for certain people who went above and beyond during certain events/missions, like those who played key roles in TN during katrina when they had evacuees pouring in and supplies that had to go out.

[lordmonar]

Well most of those decorations are tied to specfic leves of the organisation.

So...yes you would have to be at the region or national level to get them.

For a specific acheivement (as opposed to service) it would still have to be something with an impact at the level of the decoration.

[RiverAux]

I've often wondered why we even bother having some of those higher level decorations in the first place given the requirements.  Sure, you don't HAVE to be a wing or region commander or serve on national staff to get them, but in general practice that is the way it is for some of them.  If an award isn't really achievable and only affects a very tiny fraction of the membership we probably shouldn't even have it.

They most definetely should not be given as routine "end of tour" awards.  Only a handful of those eligible should be getting them. 

Now, I am talking about these "administrative" awards.  I'm just fine with having stringent criteria and very few awardees for something like the Silver Medal of Valor. 

[lordmonar]

Look at the USAF's medals.

The tops 4  (not counting the CMH, AFCross and SStar) or so are all for generals work HQ or DOD level jobs.

Just because your average C/AB has no hope of getting one is not a reason to eliminate decorations.

[RiverAux]

So, they need to dump those AF awards too. 

[arajca]

I have received an MSA for work at the unit level. Following an unplanned change of command, I stayed active and worked hard to keep the administrative burden light for the new commander until we had more seniors trained enough to help. He initially put me in for a CC, but after reading the citation, the group commander rejected it and told him to upgrade it to the MSA.

[lordmonar]

So, they need to dump those AF awards too.

So Generals can't get awards?

Or do they just get the same MSM that a Major or MSgt gets?

One could argue then we should not have decorations at all.

'Tis a slipper slope we stand upon.

[RiverAux]

They've got the stars. 

But, like I said, if they're going to have them, they should not be routine end-of-tour awards.  If only a few of those eligible earn them, I suppose thats okay, even if not really needed. 

[bosshawk]

When I was the CAWG CDO, I put several people in for MSA and they received them, so that was not an end of tour award.  Those awards were for very specific, high visibility acts by the individuals involved.

End of tour: I was awarded a ESA for my work as the CDO and that was at Wing level.  It has now been about 10 months since it was awarded and I have yet to receive it.  I know where it is sitting, but I am not going into that in this forum.

[flyboy53]

Generally, the bigger the program/project managed successfully or the higher the level of responsibility, the higher the award. So, don't expect DSMs awarded below wing level. Instead, expect to see lots of Commander's Commendations awarded at wing level and Achievement Awards at group or below. At least that's how it's expected to work, but I've seen a lot of politics, too.

In the Air Force the Achievment Medal is the average award presented to airmen and junior officers for end-of-tour or outstanding achievement. Commendation Medals come next as the rank or level of responsibility climb and then MSMs are generally for senior NCOs and field grade officers. It's an insult to be given a Commendation Medal when your a lieutenant colonel or colonel, and although I've seen MSMs awarded to senior airmen, the practice is very rare and generally involves something of great responsibility. I knew of four E-4 senior airmen that got MSMs once. It raised a real furror until word got out what they had done. They were all with the USAF Security Service or later Electronic Security Command and their duties had command-level impact. I also knew a colonel who got an AFCM once in the Alaskan Air Command, it was a major sign that his career was over.

One thing I wish NHQ would consider is having Vanguard do up regular sized medals for presentation. The awards would mean a little more than just another ribbon...even though the likelyhood of that medal being worn on a uniform...other than at presentation time is pretty slim.

But that's how DSMs and higher awards are done now, so why not the lower "decorations."

[MSgt Van]

Generally, the bigger the program/project managed successfully or the higher the level of responsibility, the higher the award.

That's it, exactly (active duty anyway). Bigger impact, bigger metal. There was the rule of thumb as already mentioned "Jr NCOs don't get MSM's." but that didn't hold true if the justification was there. 

[lordmonar]

Let's say you do a 2 year tour as a regional CP guy and do a crappy job....not bad enough to get fired....just crappy.  What do you do to show the world he was crappy?

Let's say you do a 2 year tour as a regional CP guy and do an okay job.  You do your job, meet all your suspenses and meet your commander's objectives...what do you do to show the world he did his job?

Now let's say you do a 2 year tour as regional CP guy and you exceed all your objectives, create new programs, train up hundreds and thousands of CP people and save the world as we know  it?

There is nothing wrong with getting an "end of tour" medal for "just" doing your job.  We can't pay you more, we can' promote you.  We can't give you extra time off.  The only way to give a visible kudos is to award them a Decoration.

If they do a super great  job you give them the next higher one up...if they do a so so job they get the next lower one down.

If the screw everthing up they get nothing.

This is exactly how they do business on AD.   You see a MSgt getting a AFCM at the end of tour you know that he screwed up somehow...if he gets nothing you know he really screwed up.

YMMV

[ColonelJack]

One thing I wish NHQ would consider is having Vanguard do up regular sized medals for presentation. The awards would mean a little more than just another ribbon...even though the likelyhood of that medal being worn on a uniform...other than at presentation time is pretty slim.

But that's how DSMs and higher awards are done now, so why not the lower "decorations."

Let me add a resounding "Hear Hear!" to your comment.  I would be willing to wager a tidy sum that the members who get those decorations would even spring for purchasing the full-size medal of their decoration.  I know I would ... seven CCs and one MSA.

I think the decorations from Achievement Award on up should have full-size medals available if the member wishes to purchase one. 

Jack

[ZigZag911]

I've seen numerous occasions dating back to the 70s when squadron members (senior and cadet) have received MSAs and even the occasional ESA for service to the wing (individual project or event, not a wing staff position)

[RiverAux]

Let's say you do a 2 year tour as a regional CP guy and do a crappy job....not bad enough to get fired....just crappy.  What do you do to show the world he was crappy?

Let's say you do a 2 year tour as a regional CP guy and do an okay job.  You do your job, meet all your suspenses and meet your commander's objectives...what do you do to show the world he did his job?

Now let's say you do a 2 year tour as regional CP guy and you exceed all your objectives, create new programs, train up hundreds and thousands of CP people and save the world as we know  it?

There is nothing wrong with getting an "end of tour" medal for "just" doing your job.  We can't pay you more, we can' promote you.  We can't give you extra time off.  The only way to give a visible kudos is to award them a Decoration.

If they do a super great  job you give them the next higher one up...if they do a so so job they get the next lower one down.

If the screw everthing up they get nothing.

This is exactly how they do business on AD.   You see a MSgt getting a AFCM at the end of tour you know that he screwed up somehow...if he gets nothing you know he really screwed up.

YMMV

That really says more about the perversion of an awards system than anything we should really want to emulate.  The guy that did an outstanding job at region should get an award.  The guy that just got all the paperwork done but nothing extra and the guy that screwed up should get nothing.  They got the prestige of being on region staff for 2 years and doing nothing worth recognizing. 

[lordmonar]

Yes...but it works.

Don't knock a tool that works...even if it upsets your sensibilities.

[HGjunkie]

This is exactly how they do business on AD.   You see a MSgt getting a AFCM at the end of tour you know that he screwed up somehow...if he gets nothing you know he really screwed up.

YMMV

>Air Force Commendation Medal
>screwed up
>wtf am I reading.jpg

[davedove]

Really though, I have never been a fan of end of tour awards just for doing your job, but I would actually be more in favor of them for CAP for one main reason:  we don't get paid to just do our jobs.  Awards are the only recognition we get.

[RiverAux]

we don't get paid to just do our jobs.  Awards are the only recognition we get.

Ah, but you forget, jobs are often tied to the CAP PD program which is tied to the rank you can earn in CAP.  Granted, if you're working at Regional or National level you probably already maxed out the PD program, but for everyone else...

[Short Field]

So once you earn your Wilson, you shouldn't be awarded anything for holding down a squadron job?  Guess I need to fly out to the ice floe and join the old pilots...

[RiverAux]

Do an outstanding job for the squadron and get an appropriate award.  Do a satisfactory job but nothing special, get a pat on the back.

Awards are supposed to inspire you to do more than just what is expected of you. 

[DakRadz]

This is exactly how they do business on AD.   You see a MSgt getting a AFCM at the end of tour you know that he screwed up somehow...if he gets nothing you know he really screwed up.

YMMV

>Air Force Commendation Medal
>screwed up
>wtf am I reading.jpg

It's the inside language.

Think of it like this- a cadet Vice Commander finishes his tour.

He becomes C/CC.
He becomes an Advisor to the Staff. (In my experience, these are for highly helpful but college/etc. restricted cadets or sunset/redemption jobs)
He becomes a Flight Commander. (Great immediate leader, but hasn't developed the skills to advance as he should)
All of these say something very, very different thing about job performance if said cadet is still highly involved.

[lordmonar]

Do an outstanding job for the squadron and get an appropriate award.  Do a satisfactory job but nothing special, get a pat on the back.

Awards are supposed to inspire you to do more than just what is expected of you.

Ah.....but is really expected of us?  Bottom line....for some squadrons...all that is expected is that they pay their dues and show up for SAREXs and Missions.

Anyone who stands up and does a half way decent job at one of the staff functions is already 10 times better then the at large members (I am not dissing the at large mission types!)

I got 40 Senior Members in my squadron...about 10 of them actually do the work....some of them just do an adequate job....that is they meet their suspenses and do it with in the guide lines of the regulations.

By your read they should get nothing....the same thing that the guy who have his level V and we only see him one a quarter or so....and shows up to the SAREXs.

[lordmonar]

This is exactly how they do business on AD.   You see a MSgt getting a AFCM at the end of tour you know that he screwed up somehow...if he gets nothing you know he really screwed up.

YMMV

>Air Force Commendation Medal
>screwed up
>wtf am I reading.jpg

You are reading the way the USAF NCO system works.

Did not invent it....just lived through it.

I don't know if the Officer system works the same way...but I would not be suprised.  There are lots of subtle ways your leaders let world know what type of leader you are.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I have often thought that we, not just CAP, but the U.S. uniformed services as a whole, have way too many ribbons.  In fact, it's joked about good-naturedly (and sometimes less so) among our allies.

A brand-new slick-sleeve Airman out of Lackland can theoretically come out with five ribbons:

Air Force Training Ribbon
National Defence Service Medal
Air Force Marksmanship Ribbon
BMT Honour Graduate Ribbon
GWOT Service Medal

If said Airman is ANG, s/he can also be eligible for equivalent State ribbons upon return to State command...and this is just for completing BMT and Tech School, before seeing a first deployment.

I once asked my dad, an Army E-4 with two years AD and two years Guard, how many ribbons he had and all he could remember was the Army Good Conduct Medal, Army Marksman's Badge (with "Rifle" bar) and "one or two others."

Here is the CSAF, General Schwartz (wearing four to a line):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Norton_A_Schwartz_2008_2.jpg

In comparison:

Air Vice-Marshal Graham Lintott, RNZAF
http://www.airforce.mil.nz/operations/airforce-news/110/image-gallery/oh08023002.htm

Air Marshal Mark Binskin, RAAF
http://img215.imageshack.us/f/58608077.jpg/

Generalleutnant Peter Schelzig, Luftwaffe
http://tinyurl.com/GenLtSchelzig

Lieutenant-General Andre Deschamps, Chief of the Air Staff, Canada
http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/v2/page-eng.asp?id=28

I've seen CAP officers just wearing CAP ribbons who have more than these distinguished gentlemen.

[lordmonar]

Well we can solve that by stop having wars. 

[Майор Хаткевич]

Well we can solve that by stop having wars. 

That...or, not give out NDSM or GWOT until the new airman actually deploys/supports a mission in that theatre. Wasn't the NDSM a relatively hard to get award up until 50 or so years ago?

[flyboy53]

This is exactly how they do business on AD.   You see a MSgt getting a AFCM at the end of tour you know that he screwed up somehow...if he gets nothing you know he really screwed up.

YMMV

>Air Force Commendation Medal
>screwed up
>wtf am I reading.jpg

You are reading the way the USAF NCO system works.

Did not invent it....just lived through it.

I don't know if the Officer system works the same way...but I would not be suprised.  There are lots of subtle ways your leaders let world know what type of leader you are.

Actually, you both are forgetting a few things.

First, if that certain senior NCO received one or two Achievement Medals during the same tour, the eligibility criteria for the end of tour begins with the end of the award period of the last Achievement Medal. Therefore, that same individual may only get an AFCM at end of tour, but it's the third of three decorations for achievement/meritorious service in three or more years of a tour and he or she obviously didn't screw up.

Second, I don't care how strongly awards and decorations are stressed at the unit level, the recommendation may go to a supervisor who has his own criteria for what would be the acceptable recognition. And, another big and, a lot of supervisors in the field are nuts and bolts types that don't want to bother with the paperwork of such a recommendation. The same holds true for the CAP at unit level. The only thing that changed that in the Air Force was when decorations became points for WAPS testing.

Third, although officers tend to stress decorations a lot more, it isn't uncommon to see officers with only service medals and unit awards...even pilots....and I've known a few who only earned one AFCM -- their only decoration-- their entire career.

[lordmonar]

Well we can solve that by stop having wars. 

That...or, not give out NDSM or GWOT until the new airman actually deploys/supports a mission in that theatre. Wasn't the NDSM a relatively hard to get award up until 50 or so years ago?

No....back during the Vietnam War everyone got it out of basic.  The Basic training ribbon was invented when they stopped giving out the NDSM in the 70's and the new guys had nothing on their uniforms.

[SarDragon]

Details here.

[flyboy53]

Well we can solve that by stop having wars. 

That...or, not give out NDSM or GWOT until the new airman actually deploys/supports a mission in that theatre. Wasn't the NDSM a relatively hard to get award up until 50 or so years ago?

No....back during the Vietnam War everyone got it out of basic.  The Basic training ribbon was invented when they stopped giving out the NDSM in the 70's and the new guys had nothing on their uniforms.

The Air Force Training Ribbon or "Battle of Lackand" Ribbon was introduced in the early 1980s to recognize everyone that voluntarily joined during the All Volunteer Forces Concept -- no draft. Not everyone wanted to wear it at first. Then popularity grew and the criteria was expanded. The NDSM was created during the Korean War to recognize those people serving during designated periods of national emergency. There is always a cutoff when the national emergency ends. Since Korea, I think it's been awarded four times. Think of this medal as a sort of universal recognition that the individual has served during a war or period of national emergency.

Don't trump the meaning of this medal. It also reflects a cost-savings. During World War II, there were two similar medals awarded. The American Defense Medal (yellow ribbon) was awarded for the period of emergency leading to Pearl Harbor. Then if you served one day up until 1946 you got a World War II Victory Medal.

[Майор Хаткевич]

 Since 9/11 according to the wiki posted, it has been authorized for wear. But now we have the GWOT too, which makes it somewhat redundant, as both appear to be blanket awards.

[DBlair]

Essentially, from what I've gathered thus far in this discussion is that the MSA is the highest that is ever really awarded for actual deeds/service, and only in rare cases, as anyone below the level of 'Director' positions on Wing Staff will normally get a Commander's Commendation or Achievement Award. Also, I've gathered that DSM, ESA, and most MSAs are normally handed out as 'end of tour' type decorations, usually to Region level and up.

Thus, the most anyone below the level of a 'Director' position on Wing Staff can ever hope/dream of receiving is a Commander's Commendation- and due to politics, it is often quite difficult to get someone to put a member in for a decoration, not to mention get it approved.

I've seen the discouragement/frustrating a member may get when some awards are regularly knocked down, while others are given out like candy- I've seen a young Cadet who has more CCs than probably any member I've ever seen for nothing more than regular participation, while other members (Cadet or SM) may spend many years giving an incredible 150% effort, only to go unrecognized, and it seems that "end of tour" decorations tend to add fuel to the fire of frustration with the way decorations are given out and only re-emphasizes the idea of the 'good ol' boy system' we often hear discussed.

In the conversation this original post was based on, one of the members mentioned he had been put in for an MSA, but then it was downgraded to a CC, supposedly he was told that at the Squadron level a CC is the most any member should ever even hope to receive- which seems to be a discouraging sore spot for him. (I don't personally know the facts of his situation, though, I'm just mentioning what was said.)

Personally, I'm all for rewarding members for the great things they do. I actually think we have many more members who deserve recognition than we give awards to. In a volunteer environment, it is a nice to be rewarded and awards encourage us to perform to a higher level. This is not to say that I think they should be given out like candy, but only to those who do an outstanding job.

I'm against 'end of tour' awards given just for the sake of holding a position. If the member did an outstanding job, then great, recognize them, but I don't believe we should be giving out decorations just for doing a satisfactory job when there are others out there who are going above and beyond doing absolutely incredible things and don't get any recognition at all.



Sidenote- Has anyone ever tried to put themselves in for a decoration? Is this theoretically allowed? lol Perhaps this would help to eliminate some of the award nomination problems. haha (said at least partially tounge in cheek)

[MICT1362]

Sidenote- Has anyone ever tried to put themselves in for a decoration? Is this theoretically allowed? lol Perhaps this would help to eliminate some of the award nomination problems. haha (said at least partially tounge in cheek)

CAPR 39-3 Pg 7.

10. Procedures for Recommending Decorations.

a. Who May Initiate Recommendations. Any CAP member having knowledge of an act or service meriting recognition may initiate a recommendation for an award, except that awards concerning commanders must be initiated at a higher command level or by the appointing authority for NEC members.

So, I would say yes, theoretically you could nominate yourself for an award.  Not that you would want to.  But hey, somebody might. LOL

-Paramedic

[DBlair]

Oh my. LOL

[lordmonar]

Since 9/11 according to the wiki posted, it has been authorized for wear. But now we have the GWOT too, which makes it somewhat redundant, as both appear to be blanket awards.

The GWOTS medal was not supposed to be a blanket award....but with the nature of warfare it just became easier to award it as a blanket award.

[MICT1362]

Oh my. LOL

Didn't say that I agree.  Simply saying.

[DBlair]

Oh my. LOL

Didn't say that I agree.  Simply saying.

Yea, I was just imagining a bunch of people rushing to submit nominations. hehe

[arajca]

A complaint I've heard from group and wing levels isn't putting folks in for higher awards than appropriate, it's getting folks put in for ANY awards.

If commanders don't put folks in for awards or foward nominations, they won't get recognized.

When COWG finished the narrowband transition, I put a number of members in for awards ranging from CC to ESM. Of course, just before we were to present the ESM, I found out the region/cc changed his mind (the wing/cc, region/cc, and I discussed this prior to submittal) and decided the DSM was more appropriate and we were waiting for national approval on it. Go figure.

[DBlair]

A complaint I've heard from group and wing levels isn't putting folks in for higher awards than appropriate, it's getting folks put in for ANY awards.

Seems to be an unfortunately common issue.

[HGjunkie]

Here is the CSAF, General Schwartz (wearing four to a line):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Norton_A_Schwartz_2008_2.jpg

You think that's a lot, check this guy out

[DakRadz]

Here is the CSAF, General Schwartz (wearing four to a line):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Norton_A_Schwartz_2008_2.jpg

You think that's a lot, check this guy out

Except I'll bet you a Red Lobster (or fancy eatery of your choice) that that guy is a PJ. He's most likely earned every one of those medals and ribbons.

P.S. I say this because of the Freefall Badge- earned through completion of a school which is part of PJ training.

[Hawk200]

Except I'll bet you a Red Lobster (or fancy eatery of your choice) that that guy is a PJ. He's most likely earned every one of those medals and ribbons.

Yeah, that and the link says "KyleSaulsPJ" as part of it.

P.S. I say this because of the Freefall Badge- earned through completion of a school which is part of PJ training.

They're not the only folks that get Freefall Badges.

[DakRadz]

Except I'll bet you a Red Lobster (or fancy eatery of your choice) that that guy is a PJ. He's most likely earned every one of those medals and ribbons.

Yeah, that and the link says "KyleSaulsPJ" as part of it.

P.S. I say this because of the Freefall Badge- earned through completion of a school which is part of PJ training.

They're not the only folks that get Freefall Badges.

Upon my integrity, I didn't look at the link other than the "this guy" part.

I know this, sir, but I was willing to risk it and make that bet. The odds were good enough for me (and heck, I'd've had an excuse to meet a fellow CT/ same exact region (SER, ha-get it?) cadet AND eat at Red Lobster).

[RVT]

Here is the CSAF, General Schwartz (wearing four to a line):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Norton_A_Schwartz_2008_2.jpg

You think that's a lot, check this guy out

Am I going blind, or do BOTH of them have ARMY commendation medals?

Also, that NCO should look into the still authorized but seldom seen Miniature ribbons before hes wearing his jump wings on his back.

For those who don't know as you have probably never seen them, "Miniature Ribbons"  are the same height as regular ones, but are based on the cloth a miniature medal hangs from, as opposed to full size ribbons that are based on what a full size medal hangs from.  In the Army I would see them on people who had more ribbons than would fit if they wore full size, as they fit 5 across in the same space where you can normally only wear 3.

A moot point here as they are not authorized for CAP and nobody makes them anyway, and you cannot mix full & miniature.

[spacecommand]

Nope you are not blind:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norton_A._Schwartz#Awards_and_decorations

[HGjunkie]

Here is the CSAF, General Schwartz (wearing four to a line):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Norton_A_Schwartz_2008_2.jpg

You think that's a lot, check this guy out

Except I'll bet you a Red Lobster (or fancy eatery of your choice) that that guy is a PJ. He's most likely earned every one of those medals and ribbons.

P.S. I say this because of the Freefall Badge- earned through completion of a school which is part of PJ training.

Yep. all the pictures I've seen of PJs have that many ribbons or more. Their badges literally go up to the seam on the top of their jacket. Don't get me wrong, I have the utmost respect for PJs.

[Hawk200]

...nobody makes them anyway....

I know of one place that does, but they'll only sell you an assembled rack.

CAP minis would be easy.

[RVT]

...nobody makes them anyway....

I know of one place that does, but they'll only sell you an assembled rack.

CAP minis would be easy.

I'm interested!  My current rack(s) came from ultrathin as it is, I'm no longer interested in putting together a jigsaw set of pieces that I will probably get wrong anyway.  I could never get those triangle thingys to go on the ribbons right.

While 39-3 doesn't mention mini ribbons its probably just because nobody thought of it.  Put a couple of decades in CAP in  addition to a full career in any one of the armed forces and your stuff won't fit.  I'm "short stacking" already on my blues.

[Hawk200]

I'm interested!  My current rack(s) came from ultrathin as it is, I'm no longer interested in putting together a jigsaw set of pieces that I will probably get wrong anyway.  I could never get those triangle thingys to go on the ribbons right.

I found them again: Medals of America. They only mount them. I did call them once to ask if they made them as slides. They didn't. I'm tempted to call and ask if they would consider making them up as slides, it would be easy.

Heads up, they are spendy. 

While 39-3 doesn't mention mini ribbons its probably just because nobody thought of it.  Put a couple of decades in CAP in  addition to a full career in any one of the armed forces and your stuff won't fit.  I'm "short stacking" already on my blues.

When the original 39-3 was drafted, they probably didn't exist. I'm in the same boat, especially after picking up a handful on the last deployment. About to replace one PD with another. At least I won't need a new rack.

[Major Carrales]

The Only time I have ever seen "mini-ribbons" was at the Smithsonia, and I pointed them out to James Colgan who was with me.  They were on Ike's Service Coat...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mbell1975/4241296821/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/10357196@N03/3574049415/

Hoping these photos are not changed.

I have never seen them, or ones like them, for sale anywhere.  I take it back...just found them at Medals of America...

http://www.medalsofamerica.com/Build--i-Mini-Ribbons

[Hawk200]

The Only time I have ever seen "mini-ribbons" was at the Smithsonia, and I pointed them out to James Colgan who was with me.  They were on Ike's Service Coat...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mbell1975/4241296821/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/10357196@N03/3574049415/

I don't think those would qualify as true miniature ribbons. They seem a little too short, and a little too long (or maybe that's the perspective created). According to AFI 36-2903, minis are 11/16 x 3/8. Regulars are 1 3/8x3/8. (The 1 3/8 is standard across the branches, so it's probably set by DOH.)

I have seen some of the older uniforms in various museums that have had some seriously different dimensions on ribbons. One jacket in the Wings over the Rockies in Colorado had the "ribbons" embroidered into the jacket. These "ribbons" were probably over a half inch in height. Another jacket had the same thing done to it, but the ribbons were about the right height, however not quite the right width (shorter). The older the item is, the more likely it is have non standard sizes.

It's kinda fascinating to see some of the older uniforms. They have different dimensions on things than we're all used to. Can blow your mind a little.

[DBlair]

Wow, it is interesting how this turned into another uniform discussion. 

[Major Carrales]

The Only time I have ever seen "mini-ribbons" was at the Smithsonia, and I pointed them out to James Colgan who was with me.  They were on Ike's Service Coat...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mbell1975/4241296821/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/10357196@N03/3574049415/

I don't think those would qualify as true miniature ribbons. They seem a little too short, and a little too long (or maybe that's the perspective created). According to AFI 36-2903, minis are 11/16 x 3/8. Regulars are 1 3/8x3/8. (The 1 3/8 is standard across the branches, so it's probably set by DOH.)

I have seen some of the older uniforms in various museums that have had some seriously different dimensions on ribbons. One jacket in the Wings over the Rockies in Colorado had the "ribbons" embroidered into the jacket. These "ribbons" were probably over a half inch in height. Another jacket had the same thing done to it, but the ribbons were about the right height, however not quite the right width (shorter). The older the item is, the more likely it is have non standard sizes.

It's kinda fascinating to see some of the older uniforms. They have different dimensions on things than we're all used to. Can blow your mind a little.

I've seen all sorts of things in historical contexts.  Ranging from the ribbons being sort of "cut and sewn" onto service coats, to large almost "billboard" like ribbons more in line with modern German ribbons.  I've seen some embroidered or sewn onto a patch and that inturn sewn on a jacket.

The Ike ribbons here are, if taken a close look at, similar in size to a mini-medal in width, but unusually small in height.

[Hawk200]

I've seen all sorts of things in historical contexts.  Ranging from the ribbons being sort of "cut and sewn" onto service coats, to large almost "billboard" like ribbons more in line with modern German ribbons.  I've seen some embroidered or sewn onto a patch and that inturn sewn on a jacket.

The Ike ribbons here are, if taken a close look at, similar in size to a mini-medal in width, but unusually small in height.

The differences can be rather fascinating can't they? I think that's why history has such an allure to it, regardless of what subject it's covering.

[arajca]

Wow, it is interesting how this turned into another uniform discussion. 

You've been here long enough to know that almost ANY dicussion can turn into a uniform discussion.

[DBlair]

Wow, it is interesting how this turned into another uniform discussion. 

You've been here long enough to know that almost ANY dicussion can turn into a uniform discussion.

LOL! This is very true.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

They don't do it any more but Britain and its Dominions used to sew their ribbons directly on the uniform:

http://www.rathbonemuseum.com/AUSTRALIA/AUDeLaRue/AUDeLaRue.html
http://www.rathbonemuseum.com/CANADA/CANMax/CANMax.html

They even sewed them onto battledress uniforms:
http://www.rathbonemuseum.com/GB/FAA/FAABD/FAABD.html

British ribbons are a little shorter than American ones so when you had USAAF guys who had served in the RAF/RCAF and wore their British decorations on U.S. uniform, they tended to stick out.

Even though the Brits are a lot stingier about awarding "gongs" than we are, when they gottem, they gottem, as this pic of Prince Philip in Canada recently shows:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4122/4749674158_6ff4d57a24_b.jpg

Here's an image I found of old CAP ribbons...in some cases the name stayed the same but the ribbon changed...some look kinda cartoonish, I think.

http://www.frontiernet.net/~ericbush/US/cap_old.html

Back then, we had Red, Green, White and Blue service ribbons.

[DBlair]

Considering that the Meritorious Service Award, Commander's Commendation Award, and Achievement Award are the most common that are actually awarded to regular members, I was curious whether there are thoughts as to what qualifies one decoration over another.

Granted, there are specific criteria (as noted below) noted in the regulations, but even considering this, each seems to blend into the other without much real distinction between them as to awarding criteria, other than personal opinion. Also, there is debate as to what constitutes "normal duty performance" in the award criteria.

So, I was curious, what sort of performance (any examples come to mind?) would justify nominating a member for one decoration over another?

(This is regarding members below the level of Wing Directors or other Wing Staff, such as members at the Squadron or Group levels, as previous discussion essentially concluded that Wing Staff and above seem to be awarded decorations as end-of-tour awards.)


Criteria as per CAPR39-3:

e. Meritorious Service Award. Outstanding achievement or meritorious service rendered specifically on behalf of CAP. Superior performance of normal duties does not, in itself, constitute automatic justification for the Meritorious Service Award. Awards should be restricted to the recognition of achievements and services which are clearly outstanding and unmistakably exceptional when compared to similar achievements and accomplishments of personnel of like rank and responsibilities. In instances where many individuals are affiliated with an exceptionally successful program, project, or mission, the Meritorious Service Award should be awarded to the relatively few individuals whose contributions clearly stand out from the others and who have contributed most to the success of the program.

f. Commander's Commendation Award. Outstanding duty performance where achievements and services are clearly and unmistakably exceptional when compared to similar achievements and service of members of like rank and responsibility. In instances where several members are affiliated with an exceptionally successful program, project or mission, the Commander's Commendation Award will be awarded only to those who clearly stand out from the others and who contributed most to the success of the program. The Exceptional Service Award and the Meritorious Service Award differ from the Commanders' Commendation Award in that they recognize achievements and services significantly above and beyond normal duty performance.

g. CAP Achievement Award. Presented for outstanding service to the unit, group or wing. This award may be approved by the group commander. If a group structure does not exist, the wing commander may designate who has the authority to approve this award.

[lordmonar]

Okay....just to throw out a for instance.

Large three wing Encampment:

Everyone on staff gets and acheivement Award.
The Top 10% or so get a Commander's Commendation.
The Commandant/Director gets the Mertorious Sevice Award.

Justification.

The director of the encampment is not a "normal" duty for anyone in CAP.
The Commander's Commendation to the top staff performers...those who truely went above and beyond the actual staff job they were "hired" for.
The Acheivement Award for everyone...because Encampment Staff is a dirty thankless job and we need to honor those who gave up their time and effort for the betterment of CAP.

[DBlair]

Okay....just to throw out a for instance.

Large three wing Encampment:

Everyone on staff gets and acheivement Award.
The Top 10% or so get a Commander's Commendation.
The Commandant/Director gets the Mertorious Sevice Award.

Justification.

The director of the encampment is not a "normal" duty for anyone in CAP.
The Commander's Commendation to the top staff performers...those who truely went above and beyond the actual staff job they were "hired" for.
The Acheivement Award for everyone...because Encampment Staff is a dirty thankless job and we need to honor those who gave up their time and effort for the betterment of CAP.

You raise an interesting point about Encampments. Realistically, it isn't 'normal duty' for anyone to lead/staff an encampment. I wonder how often Encampment Staff are actually recognized with such awards.


I bumped this thread after a while of dormancy due to this award topic coming up in a discussion this past weekend... In summary...

It seems we don't recognize our people enough, or in the right way. Many members feel soured when they see people being given high level awards (DSM, ESA, MSA, etc) merely for holding certain positions, when others at lower-profile positions are doing some amazing things and for quite a while, but then are never recognized, or are recognized merely with a Certificate of Appreciation. A member not feeling appreciated quite often leads to less of a willingness to go out of their way to help, or may lead to inactivity or non-renewal.

This raises a few points...

First, when a member is going out of their way to do amazing things and then isn't recognized, they don't feel appreciated, and it only adds to it when certain others being given awards like candy, regardless of actual performance. We should recognize members for their contributions- not just for showing up or holding a position, but rather those members who work hard to make things happen.

Secondly, it seems that 'Certificates of Appreciation' are given to rank/file members quite a bit more often, but you can't wear a certificate or even a plaque. Afterall, wasn't the Achievement Award created essentially as a wearable Certificate of Appreciation? Members often see a Certificate of Appreciation almost in a *rolling eyes* sort of disappointment.


As was asked in the discussion this past weekend, an important question to consider is:
Why don't we recognize more members with decorations?

Some of the most common responses were:

1) Many members assume it is [exclusively] a Commander's place to put someone in for a decoration, and that they (as a rank/file member) would feel out of place putting someone else in for an award.

2) The "what about me?" sort of mentality in that they question why they should bother putting in someone else for a decoration when they themselves are never recognized.

3) Some members assume that pretty much anything is just 'normal duty' and not worthy of a ribbon.


Any thoughts?

[flyboy53]

Certainly every volunteer needs recogniton for their sacrifice but does everyone really need a decoration?

There are three problems with awards and decorations. First, the recommender needs to have the confidence to submit a recommendation that has merit and will be taken seriously if boarded and by the approving authority. That is why there is an Achievement Award approved by a group commander because a recommendation for a Commendation or Meritorious Service Ribbon may not have merit when screened at wing or region. Second, comes the cost of the ribbon and/or minature medal if you really want to do it correctly. A certificate, really, is just another certificate. And, third, decorations and ribbons have a way of becomming inflated after a while. Just look at our own ribbons. There's one ribbon with various attachments just for completing every level of the PD Program (that's almost two full rows). Imagine also if everyone earned Commendation Ribbons? Woud that ribbon still be a valid form of recognition. I don't know how many times I've seen someone submit recommendations, without merit, for things like the Lifesaving Ribbon.

[DBlair]

Certainly every volunteer needs recogniton for their sacrifice but does everyone really need a decoration?

There are three problems with awards and decorations. First, the recommender needs to have the confidence to submit a recommendation that has merit and will be taken seriously if boarded and by the approving authority. That is why there is an Achievement Award approved by a group commander because a recommendation for a Commendation or Meritorious Service Ribbon may not have merit when screened at wing or region. Second, comes the cost of the ribbon and/or minature medal if you really want to do it correctly. A certificate, really, is just another certificate. And, third, decorations and ribbons have a way of becomming inflated after a while. Just look at our own ribbons. There's one ribbon with various attachments just for completing every level of the PD Program (that's almost two full rows). Imagine also if everyone earned Commendation Ribbons? Woud that ribbon still be a valid form of recognition. I don't know how many times I've seen someone submit recommendations, without merit, for things like the Lifesaving Ribbon.

You bring up a good point, and I agree. While every member should be appreciated, not every member deserves to receive an Achievement Award or a Commander's Commendation- these should be reserved for those who really make things happen and who do an outstanding job. The same goes for DSM, ESA, and MSA- they should be to truly high performing members and not just as a result of holding a certain position regardless of performance.

Likewise, I agree with you about certificates. While some may disagree with me, a certificate is just another [essentially] meaningless certificate if it isn't tied to a ribbon. Most members like to show their accomplishments on their uniform and so a 'certificate of appreciation' to reward a member for outstanding performance isn't really much appreciation at all.

A Lt Col who has been in CAP for probably 25-30 years mentioned to me that he would gladly trade in all of his *many* 'certificates of appreciation' for just a single Achievement Award- this just shows how many members view certificates vs ribbons.

As for submitting the CAPF120s, it seems that rank/file members feel that if they (as a "nobody" ...as a local member stated) submitted it, they doubt it would be approved by the unit commander, let alone stand up at higher echelons. It seems quite a few unit commanders unfortunately see a certificate of appreciation as sufficient, and then wonder why these high-performing members feel unappreciated.

To be honest, I feel much of the lack of putting members in for decorations comes from a mindset of "...why should I put someone else in for a decoration when I myself am never recognized with decorations..."


While filling out a CAPF120 for someone recently, I noticed something... there is a space to list previous decorations and dates. This made me wonder if this was part of the determining factor in approving decorations. For example, no MSA awarded without a few prior CC, or something of that nature? Any thoughts or insight?

[lordmonar]

No one is suggesting that "everyone" get a medal.

"everyone" get the Red Service Ribbon.....but that is it.

The question is that there is a point between "single handedly saved the univers from the invading Triffids" and "he showed up most of the time and we did not have to yell at him much" to get a blood CAP Acheivment Medal.

I got no problem with giving away medals to squadron officers (and Cadets) who "just do their jobs".

Because they don't have to do anything!  The can just show up sit in the back and drink their coffee and wait for the next SAREX or call out for the next SAR.

So....2d Lt Cadet'sMom who does the paper work or drives cadets to the meeting is by definition going above and beyond what any other CAP member has to do.

Is it still an effective tool?  I think so.  Will it work for everyone?  No...but nothing ever does....that's why it is called situational leadership.

[Eclipse]

^ That's the problem, some feel that way, others (and the regs) disagree.

Simply doing your job is not, IMHO, enough to warrant a decoration, if it were, they would be automatic as well.

The other issue is the inconsistency across the board in their award.  Some people get them for longevity, others for respiration and gravitational attraction.

You sign none you're a hard-butt, you sign one and all the others get their thongs bunched.  You just can't win.

[HGjunkie]

Catch-22 anyone?

[DBlair]

^ That's the problem, some feel that way, others (and the regs) disagree.

Simply doing your job is not, IMHO, enough to warrant a decoration, if it were, they would be automatic as well.

The other issue is the inconsistency across the board in their award.  Some people get them for longevity, others for respiration and gravitational attraction.

You sign none you're a hard-butt, you sign one and all the others get their thongs bunched.  You just can't win.

I believe the solution is to award decorations to those who have performed in an outstanding manner, meanwhile making it clear to others that with sufficient effort, they too could realistically receive such a decoration- and then actually follow through when they do perform accordingly.

[lordmonar]

^ That's the problem, some feel that way, others (and the regs) disagree.

Simply doing your job is not, IMHO, enough to warrant a decoration, if it were, they would be automatic as well.

The other issue is the inconsistency across the board in their award.  Some people get them for longevity, others for respiration and gravitational attraction.

You sign none you're a hard-butt, you sign one and all the others get their thongs bunched.  You just can't win.

I believe the solution is to award decorations to those who have performed in an outstanding manner, meanwhile making it clear to others that with sufficient effort, they too could realistically receive such a decoration- and then actually follow through when they do perform accordingly.

Absolutley.  We set the standard.....and the make [darn] sure that we reward everyone who meets that standard.

The problem is that CAP has doen a poor job of defining the standard in a way the general rank and file can understand..

[flyboy53]

So consider this.

Why is it that more frequently these days, there have been WWII members sought out, promoted to colonel and then presented Distinguished Service Medals? Certainly we want to honor and recognize those (sometimes former) members, but why then do we only present someone with a certificate when they formally retire from CAP?

Certainly we want to recognize those trailblazing (sometimes former) members, but why the lack of recognition to someone who makes a career of the CAP?

World War II membes may soon see a Congressional Gold Medal minted in their honor (and certainly they deserve it for their sacrifice), but the average CAP member will not see any simililar form of recognition during their entire period of service. If NHQ has set a standard for a medal that seems to be awarded frequently for political or public relations purposes, than why shouldn't a DSM be awarded concurrent, automatically, with a retirement certificate?

[BillB]

If the DSM was awarded to a member on retirement when would he ever wear it? Up until a few years ago retired member could wear the CAP uniform for CAP banquets etc. But the disgraced National Commander pushed through a regulation change where retired members could no longer wear the uniform.
I can see presenting the DSM to members upon reaching 50 years of membership, but retirement after only 12 years (or what ever the retirement requirement is currently) doesn't make sense.

[flyboy53]

The current reg says 20 years.

As far as when would that person wear it, he or she would wear it upon retirement, just like in the military.

Why is when would it be worn important? The issue is to present something more tangible and archival than just another certificate. If you've stripped a CAP retiree of all the other honors like wearing a uniform away, does just another certificate seem as a valid form of recognition after the 20-year or so investment of service, of dues or all of the other costs and grief that a CAP member incurs during those two decades or so of service? You may say, well they get an ID card? You don't wear an ID Card, it may be placed in a wallet and may not be replaceable if the membership has lapsed. Thanks, here's another piece of paper...

Of all the certificates my wife and I received during our tours with CAP, the only one that is framed and displayed is a region-level Brewer Award that I received years ago. All the rest, including my own GRW, are in an envelope that sits behind the door in my den. The only tangible purpose they've served was to reconstruct rank and achievements when we both had a break in service.

Retirees get a complete lack of respect in this organization. I know of a retired major who went to a wing conference and got absolutely ridiculed because he wore the old maroon CAP tie with his blazer uniform....it was the uniform combination in effect when he was an active member.

One other thing, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I though WWII CAP members were entitled to wear their uniforms during the appropriate national holidays in accordance with the various federal laws that apply to former service members.

[Eclipse]

If the DSM was awarded to a member on retirement when would he ever wear it?

From 39-2
3-1. General.
c. Retired Member.
Once retired, members will not actively participate. Retired individuals may attend wing or region conferences and National Board meetings when the general membership is allowed to attend, i.e., the summer National Board meeting, or when invited by the host commander. Attendance at other meetings, conferences, training sessions, or non-social activities conducted by CAP is not allowed unless the retiree is invited by the wing or region commander of the unit hosting the event. Attendance at social functions is authorized, but requires a formal or specific invitation and prior approval of the commander hosting the event.

Retired individuals will wear the current CAP blazer uniform (with the last grade earned as an active member) or appropriate civilian attire when attending social functions as a guest. Retired individuals will not be listed on Military Support Authorizations. Retired members may reapply for active membership with the approval of the National Commander. While retired, any individual who brings discredit to CAP may be barred from any event by the National Commander.

The semi-formal variant of the blazer allows for the wear of one medal.

With that said, there are lines to draw and lines to not (grammar) - on various occasions I have attended banquets and other formal
activities where retired members wore their historical uniforms and the roof did not cave in.

[tsrup]

Okay....just to throw out a for instance.

Large three wing Encampment:

Everyone on staff gets and acheivement Award.
The Top 10% or so get a Commander's Commendation.
The Commandant/Director gets the Mertorious Sevice Award.

Justification.

The director of the encampment is not a "normal" duty for anyone in CAP.
The Commander's Commendation to the top staff performers...those who truely went above and beyond the actual staff job they were "hired" for.
The Acheivement Award for everyone...because Encampment Staff is a dirty thankless job and we need to honor those who gave up their time and effort for the betterment of CAP.

You raise an interesting point about Encampments. Realistically, it isn't 'normal duty' for anyone to lead/staff an encampment. I wonder how often Encampment Staff are actually recognized with such awards.

It depends,
Two years ago I was a tac and I got an Achievement Award,
Last year I was a Deputy Commandant and none of the senior staff/tac o's got squat.

The cadet staff almost didn't get anything either, had we not done the paperwork ourselves.  It all depends on how well the EC is on the ball.

[Eclipse]

Perfect example of where I'd have an issue, and this has come up in my wing as well.

Achievement Awards should have a Group-level scope.  Encampments are wing-level activities.

Appropriate awards for encampment staffers are Comm Comm's.

[tsrup]

Perfect example of where I'd have an issue, and this has come up in my wing as well.

Achievement Awards should have a Group-level scope.  Encampments are wing-level activities.

Appropriate awards for encampment staffers are Comm Comm's.

And if your wing doesn't have groups?

[Eclipse]

Then there isn't much need for the Achievement award, since the approving authority has a pen for the comm comm.

Even without groups, the scope of the activity could still be similar (i.e. interaction on a level across multiple units, but not on a wing level).

[CAP Producer]

Scalability is the key with awards and decorations.

I have had Achivement Awards approved for PAO's who have staffed my regional PA training events.

Commander's Commendations for PA work at a wing or regional level.

I had an Exceptional Service Award approved for a guy who maintained the IT infrastructure for 4 wings and my regional PA web operations.

And I have seen Achievement Awards and Commadner's Commendations awarded for national level work.

its all about the scope and level of involvement.

And how good the write up is. 

[lordmonar]

Perfect example of where I'd have an issue, and this has come up in my wing as well.

Achievement Awards should have a Group-level scope.  Encampments are wing-level activities.

Appropriate awards for encampment staffers are Comm Comm's.

Disagree.

Both on the scope and the fact that an encampment is a wing level event.

The award should be tied to a scope of responsibility.   Squadron staff or squadron staff like responsibililty (even if it at National HQ) is right for an Acheivment award.  So all your rank and file encampment staff should have the general responsibilities of a squadron staffer.....even if the event is a wing level activity (i.e. it supports the whole wing).  The same would go for NCSA staffers even if that is a National event.

Just because the Group CC is the approving authority for the award....it does not mean that the accomplishments of the individual must also have a direct impact at a group level.

If that were true.....then we would never give out any awards for anyone not on group staff or above.

Just as CAP Producer said....it is about the scope of responsibiliy.....not the "level" of the event that matters.

[MSG Mac]

One factor in the lack of award of the various ribbons is that some units just don't or won't put people in for the awards. as a former Wing DP I would beg for nominees for the several Wing Member of the Year awards. In that wing of about 30 units we would typically get 5 nominations. Same for the ribboned awards. It was always "someone else's responsibility" or a case of  "I don't believe in awards" or "it wouldn't go through if I did write one up"  In this they were right, They didn't write the individuals up so the award never came down. Then Commanders would wonder why they had a retention problem. A good friend said it best when she retired as a LtCol " No one ever said  Thank You"

[Eclipse]

If that were true.....then we would never give out any awards for anyone not on group staff or above.

You don't have to be on group staff to have an impact that is more than one unit.

I, personally, have no idea what the real intent of the Achievement award was, and it has never been clearly spelled out.  I do know that many unit CC's treat is as the "Comm-Comm Consolation Prize" and make the Group CC the "bad guy" instead of the Wing CC when requesting decs.

One recommendation that we have made to the wing is to formulate the Wing's promotions and decorations board with 1 member from each group and 1 rep from Wing, then submit all decoration through that board, even the Ach's.  This would help squash the unintentional nepotism that comes with familiarity.

[DBlair]

One factor in the lack of award of the various ribbons is that some units just don't or won't put people in for the awards. as a former Wing DP I would beg for nominees for the several Wing Member of the Year awards. In that wing of about 30 units we would typically get 5 nominations. Same for the ribboned awards. It was always "someone else's responsibility" or a case of  "I don't believe in awards" or "it wouldn't go through if I did write one up"  In this they were right, They didn't write the individuals up so the award never came down. Then Commanders would wonder why they had a retention problem. A good friend said it best when she retired as a LtCol " No one ever said  Thank You"

I think you hit the nail right on the head...

[bosshawk]

IMHO, those who demur saying "nobody will approve it if I write it" are simply lazy.  In my experience in seven or eight years on the CAWG staff, I never had a recommendation for an award turned down nor downgraded.  Just for comparison, I probably did eight to ten a year for my staff in the CD program.  I know that my successor has put everyone on the staff in for an award this year and, so far, they have all been approved.  And all of this in a Wing where awards are hard to come by.  I suppose that it helps to have some experience in writing up the recommendations(after 30 years of doing it in the RM, I have a fair knowledge of the words to use) helps.

Our pay sucks, so awards are about the only thing we have to give people who bust their butts in a program.  "Thanks" goes a fair distance, but something tangible really goes over well.

[James Shaw]

"Thanks" goes a fair distance, but something tangible really goes over well.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[DBlair]

Our pay sucks, so awards are about the only thing we have to give people who bust their butts in a program.  "Thanks" goes a fair distance, but something tangible really goes over well.

Well said.  :clap:

[DBlair]

Perfect example of where I'd have an issue, and this has come up in my wing as well.

Achievement Awards should have a Group-level scope.  Encampments are wing-level activities.

Appropriate awards for encampment staffers are Comm Comm's.

Disagree.

Both on the scope and the fact that an encampment is a wing level event.

The award should be tied to a scope of responsibility.   Squadron staff or squadron staff like responsibililty (even if it at National HQ) is right for an Acheivment award.  So all your rank and file encampment staff should have the general responsibilities of a squadron staffer.....even if the event is a wing level activity (i.e. it supports the whole wing).  The same would go for NCSA staffers even if that is a National event.

Just because the Group CC is the approving authority for the award....it does not mean that the accomplishments of the individual must also have a direct impact at a group level.

If that were true.....then we would never give out any awards for anyone not on group staff or above.

Just as CAP Producer said....it is about the scope of responsibiliy.....not the "level" of the event that matters.

I agree with you, it should not necessarily be about the 'level' but rather what the member 'actually' does. Otherwise, we end up with unproductive members at Wing, Region, and National sporting MSA, ESA, and maybe even DSMs, yet not having actually done anything of note.


For the sake of discussion, I was curious where these examples fall into...

- While some roles at Encampment are indeed akin to squadron duties, what about the positions of Commander, Deputy Commander, Commandant, Cadet Commander, etc? When the position involves leading an activity of 15-20 flights (perhaps even more) and a few hundred members (perhaps from multiple wings), this would be a bit more than normal "squadron" duties. Would these positions still yield a CC, or is a higher decoration justified?

- When discussing the scope of involvement, what about those Groups that are larger than most Wings. For example, my Group covers a geographic area (7 FL counties) larger than most Wings, with ~25 decently large squadrons. Some of these Group Staff Officers are much more like Wing-level Director positions. Would these staff officers still be recognized like other Squadron or Group-level staff with an AA or CC, or would they be recognized similar to Wing Staff with MSA and ESA?

- What about special projects that are not exactly structured around a squadron/flight structure. An example would be the Project Officer and Assistant Project Officers running a Wing Cadet Competition, or a Director of a Wing-level PD Course (students from around the Wing/Region), or at a more local level, the Project Officers coordinating a unit/group Drill Team?


Just figured I'd throw these out there for comment as they seem to be somewhat unique when applying the scope model.

[lordmonar]

When we are talking about specail projects not base on a wing or unit.....you look at the level of responsibility the individual had with in the project itself  (i.e. the Big Cheeze in Charge....vs a low level gofer) and the level of impact that project had.

For example......the director of wing wide cadet NCO course...is the big cheeze.  The course had about 20 staff members and 50 particpants.   That is similar to size and scope to a mid sized squadron.....so you would compare his accomplishments to other squadron commanders.

The same program but held at a regional or national level you would take into consideration that the impact of the program had a wider effect and you can consider upping the level of the award.

ON the other hand you take a look at a National Level program (that is it is run out of NHQ) but has no direct impact on anyone outside of NHQ (say an upgrade to the computers at the NHQ offices).  That award would be the same as the one you would give to a squadron level IT officer....(assuming you had a squadron with the same amount of computer hardware as NHQ).

The same goes for when you look at your encampment CC and staff.   If you have a huge encampment then the top guys who really had a responsibility of wing or group staffer then you would award that level of award.

--I think I spelled out MSM for the C/CC and Director and maybe their top 2-3 staffers.  Commander Comms for the senior staffers and Acheivment for the rank and file encampment staff.

The issue with different sized units with the same names.....we that is just one of the problems we have to deal with, considering how CAP is organised.  A squadron is a squadron......whether you have the minimun 10 (IIRC) or if you have some super squadron with 300 people (one of the SEP squadrons is about that big IIRC).

Is it "unfair"?  Sure...in a lot of ways....but you have to build some sort of frame work to get any sort of standardisation.

[DBlair]

As I was reading through CAPP39-3, I noticed the sample CAPF120s for each decoration, and found the sample criteria to be interesting...



DSM:
Vice Wing Commander serving as Project Officer, overseeing CAP's involvement in providing airborne security to the Winter Olympics.

ESA:
Encampment Admin Officer who performed well, but was not able to attend the weekly meetings prior to Encampment.

MSA:
Wing Director of Cadet Programs for 1 year. Accomplishments include holding a Cadet Aerospace Day where 5 Cadets earned their Rocketry Badge, planning several sessions/events at the Wing Conference, co-Directed a TLC, Staffed an SLS, and Directed a CLC.

Commander's Commendation:
Recognizing service as an ROTC program director-- not for CAP service.

Achievement Award:
Recognizing a member for his mentoring of new members-- success is defined as members renewing membership and participating in CAP training.


Any thoughts?

[Eclipse]

Commander's Commendation:
Recognizing service as an ROTC program director-- not for CAP service.

Inappropriate.  We should not be giving people decorations for service outside CAP.  ROTC already has their own awards, and being an ROTC director has nothing to do with CAP anymore than being a local CERT coordinator, or ARC shelter manager would.

We are not the military, especially from the perspective that the military recognizes community and volunteer service because to someone in the USAF, for example, CAP is done during your spare time.  CAP members only serve in their spare time (theoretically).  We should not be recognizing people for doing other stuff which takes them away from CAP, even if that "other" is a really good thing.

Further, an ROTC program director is a paid position, isn't it?  So CAP is going to give people decorations for doing their jobs?
Would you give a Wing Administrator who is also a member a Comm Comm for being a good Wing Admin?  Of course not.

Can I get one for being a Motorcycle Safety Instructor on base?

[DakRadz]

Commander's Commendation:
Recognizing service as an ROTC program director-- not for CAP service.

Inappropriate.

Further, an ROTC program director is a paid position, isn't it?  So CAP is going to give people decorations for doing their jobs?

I agree specifically with the parts I left in.

An ROTC program director is not just a paid position- it is an Active Duty military assignment. The director is a commissioned officer who is assigned/posted/stationed there. Now, I'm not saying that they shouldn't be recognized, but not in CAP...

If this is the case, anyone with a Bronze Star or above and is in CAP needs to have some sort of CAP decoration as well...

[jimmydeanno]

Dang.  If those are the examples, I think most of us here should have at least 10 ESAs this year...

[lordmonar]

Dang.  If those are the examples, I think most of us here should have at least 10 ESAs this year...

+1

[RiverAux]

That is a lot higher than I would have expected for an encampment staff officer.  For the encampment commander, sure, but I'm not sure we've even awarded an MSA for that...

[DBlair]

Dang.  If those are the examples, I think most of us here should have at least 10 ESAs this year...

+1

Exactly what I was thinking. Most of us would have quite an array of decorations.

If those are the standards, then we really are awarding these far less often than we previously assumed.