NRA Badges

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

I run the junior rifle program for my club and have given out all of the awards up to Expert. I'm currently tracking one shooter for the DE award. I would accept a certificate from an other program and allow someone to continue from there.

Yes, a cadet could order the certificate for anything up to Expert from the NRA (and pay shipping on it that made Vanguard look good) and get any one to sign it. If you think your cadets would act like that, one medal on the blues is not problem 1.

[a2capt]

We're about to have a weekend bivouac that features NRA training for units in our group.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Nearly half of the cadets in my squadron have earned one of the Jr Marksmanship medals. I got mine about 2 years ago.

Here is my thinking on this one: Every cadet in my squadron who wears one of these medals has received it, and a certificate approved by the local NRA instructors. Because the NRA instructors approved it, and CAPM 39-1 permites it, then we can wear it right! Because CAP does not specify this issue, It should solely be up to the NRA, and not a CAP problem until the regulations are changed. Because it is allowed, its not a CAP issue, its a NRA issue, and they need to communicate with CAP to resolve it. But in the mean time, until this is resolved between both organizations, I believe if the NRA awards them, properly meeting their standards for their program, then CAP should be allowed to wear them, in accordance with CURRENT CAP regulations.

So if the program that was listed doesn't exist but something similar exists it's ok to bend the regs?

[Zen Master Charlie]

Nearly half of the cadets in my squadron have earned one of the Jr Marksmanship medals. I got mine about 2 years ago.

Here is my thinking on this one: Every cadet in my squadron who wears one of these medals has received it, and a certificate approved by the local NRA instructors. Because the NRA instructors approved it, and CAPM 39-1 permites it, then we can wear it right! Because CAP does not specify this issue, It should solely be up to the NRA, and not a CAP problem until the regulations are changed. Because it is allowed, its not a CAP issue, its a NRA issue, and they need to communicate with CAP to resolve it. But in the mean time, until this is resolved between both organizations, I believe if the NRA awards them, properly meeting their standards for their program, then CAP should be allowed to wear them, in accordance with CURRENT CAP regulations.

So if the program that was listed doesn't exist but something similar exists it's ok to bend the regs?

I am saying, if the NRA instructors awarded it within their restrictions, then there is no problem. My point being, NRA instructors are still running this program, and awarding cadets with the certificate and medal... therefor it is not a CAP problem, its an NRA problem. I said absolutley nothing about "bending the regs" I dont know why you are choosing to 'bend my words' on all of the comments I make... POINT: IF THE NRA AWRDS IT, YOU CAN WEAR IT (ACCORDING TO OUR REGS) AND AS FAR AS I HAVE SEEN, WHETHER THE PROGRAM STILL EXISTS OR NOT, THEY ARE STILL AWARDING IT! Therefore, any cadet who has ben presented this medal BY AN NRA INSTRUCTOR can wear it. until our CAP regs change

[Eclipse]

^ The regulations specify particular badges from a particular program, if that specific program no longer exists, then whatever badges are being awarded are not authorized for wear until such time as the powers that be (PTB^®) reevaluate the situation and change the regs.

This is no different than the issues of there being any number of military badges and decorations that other services authorize, but the USAF does not allow, and therefore are not allowed on CAP uniforms, either.

We don't make things up, or assume "The 'old x' is the 'new y' just because it fits our needs.

In this case it is clear that anyone who entered CAP after the NRA changed the program could not earn the badge as intended and therefore there is nothing to wear.

[Fuzzy]

C/Capt. The problem is the NRA Marksmanship award that the NRA instructors are qualifying Cadets for, is not the same thing you and I are reading in the regs, dude.

Like others have said. The regulation is unfortunately for the Junior Marksmanship Award, which was phased out by the NRA. The NRA replaced it with the current Marksmanship Award (Note: Not Junior), and now they award that.

So essentially the Regulation is saying you can wear an outdated award. Not the Marksmanship Award both you and I earned.

That is why it is bending the regs to wear the award on your uniform. Nobody is claiming you did not fairly earn it. The issue is wearing it on the uniform dude.

[Major Carrales]

Ah...a "clear" grey area.  This is why you cannot simply "throw regs" at people.  I would make the claim that the "junior" in Junior Marksmanship actually means that it was earned by a minor and that the subsequent award is really the same as the prior.

If even 25% of CAP personnel believe it, then it gets worn.  This sort of thing needs to be more clear in the next rewrite.

[Eclipse]

Ah...a "clear" grey area.  This is why you cannot simply "throw regs" at people.  I would make the claim that the "junior" in Junior Marksmanship actually means that it was earned by a minor and that the subsequent award is really the same as the prior.

If even 25% of CAP personnel believe it, then it gets worn.  This sort of thing needs to be more clear in the next rewrite.

"Junior" is the first word in the name of the program, anything else is a stretch...

[Major Carrales]

Ah...a "clear" grey area.  This is why you cannot simply "throw regs" at people.  I would make the claim that the "junior" in Junior Marksmanship actually means that it was earned by a minor and that the subsequent award is really the same as the prior.

If even 25% of CAP personnel believe it, then it gets worn.  This sort of thing needs to be more clear in the next rewrite.

"Junior" is the first word in the name of the program, anything else is a stretch...

And a stretch, of any kind, is all you need to prove my point!!!

[rdmcii]

Major Carrales,

I may have been one of the guys wondering if the present CAPM 39-1 meant something just as you suggested, rather than just take that leap, my original question to knowledgebase asked just that (it appears to be re-worded or a composite question as answered). The knowledge base answer says CAPM 39-1 says what it means and means what it says. I understand very well how their was uncertainty, but now their frankly is no uncertainty, no grey area

I wore the 'real' jr metal as a cadet, have an NRA instructor in my unit, have cadets that would love to wear the metal, and see other cadets wearing them, so this pains me as much as anyone

[lordmonar]

The thing is....until I got a notice from NHQ a couple of weeks ago about this.....I did not even question it.  I assumed that the NRA badge issued by the NRA Organisation that my cadets were particpating it WAS the badge that 39-1 was talking about.

As has been mentioned before....the NRA changed their program some years ago.....I assumed (yes I know how that is spelled) the NHQ was aware and just accepted the new NRA badges as the right ones.

Now....what do I do?  Tell the 20 or so cadets who are wearing it that they got to take it off?

[Eclipse]

Now....what do I do?  Tell the 20 or so cadets who are wearing it that they got to take it off?

Yep.

I had to do the same with a unit that had never earned a unit citation.  Buy them pizza.  Pizza solves all problems.

[cap235629]

Now....what do I do?  Tell the 20 or so cadets who are wearing it that they got to take it off?

Yep.

I had to do the same with a unit that had never earned a unit citation.  Buy them pizza.  Pizza solves all problems.

+1 but better make it a meat lovers......

[a2capt]

Now....what do I do?  Tell the 20 or so cadets who are wearing it that they got to take it off?

Turn it into something positive. Make it the theme for the evening, go over the regs., awards, and work it in and then perhaps wrap it up with something that can earn them the right badge? (or did this thread establish that it's not available .. or something)

* a2capt better get the reg. out and look, we have a weekend of this coming up next month, too. We never even talked about badges anyway, just NRA certificates.

[lordmonar]

The "right badge" does not exist anymore.  The JNRA marksman program got turned into the Winchester/NRA marksman program with not distinction between ages. 

[Ned]

OK, let's take care of this the right way.

It appears that the NRA badge permitted for wear on the cadet uniform has been OBE (Overtaken By Events) and is no longer a part of the NRA program.

I can carry the water for the regulation change, but I need some help.  I am not an NRA instructor, nor am I particularly familiar with their current marksmanship programs.

So let's make CAPTalk an Agent for Change on this:

Let's collectively do the research and decide what the reg ought to permit, and write up the suggested change.  It doesn't have to be a work of art.  Once we agree on what should work, I will take it to the Uniform Committee/NB/NEC/whoever and get 'er done.

Ground rules:

1.  The goal is to find one or more badges that can be reasonably earned by a Phase I or II cadet using an approved and verifiable NRA program.

2.  We will need to specify exactly which badge(s) can be worn.

3.  We should identify a process to allow for a change when/if the NRA changes their programs.  (So we don't wind up like we are now.)

Who will help?

Ned Lee
Lt Col, CAP
National Cadet Advisor

[davidsinn]

OK, let's take care of this the right way.

It appears that the NRA badge permitted for wear on the cadet uniform has been OBE (Overtaken By Events) and is no longer a part of the NRA program.

I can carry the water for the regulation change, but I need some help.  I am not an NRA instructor, nor am I particularly familiar with their current marksmanship programs.

So let's make CAPTalk an Agent for Change on this:

Let's collectively do the research and decide what the reg ought to permit, and write up the suggested change.  It doesn't have to be a work of art.  Once we agree on what should work, I will take it to the Uniform Committee/NB/NEC/whoever and get 'er done.

Ground rules:

1.  The goal is to find one or more badges that can be reasonably earned by a Phase I or II cadet using an approved and verifiable NRA program.

2.  We will need to specify exactly which badge(s) can be worn.

3.  We should identify a process to allow for a change when/if the NRA changes their programs.  (So we don't wind up like we are now.)

Who will help?

Ned Lee
Lt Col, CAP
National Cadet Advisor

Can we open it up for seniors too? Some of us old guys like to put lead down range too. Nineteen inch gong at 500 yds with .223. Three inch swinger with 9mm Mak at 25 yds standing.

[Fuzzy]

Theoretically the process shouldn't be very difficult to transfer. As far as I know there are three levels of the current marksmanship program. Bronze, silver and gold. Each with a respective name.

Currently it would appear units are allowing all three of the medals (not at once thankfully) and basically wait for the shooter to meet the NRA requirements and for the instructor to hand the unit the NRA forms.

So the burden of the program is almost entirely on the NRA currently. The Squadron just holds on the forms and monitors.

If were going to look into the theoretical here. I think it would look better if CAP just designed its own badge or probably simpler a ribbon for marksmanship. The NRA badge looks out of place on our uniform, and looks plain gaudy.

Work out something specifically with the NRA so that we have some sort of agreement with them. We set up the award, they set up the requirements. Requirements can probably just be transferred almost entirely from the current marksmanship program.  This way were not just piggybacking entirely off someone Else's award, so they won't just change the program without a phone call.

[a2capt]

Well.. we've got an operation plan approved by CAWG, tomorrow night we'll probably iron out a date for the event. It's the Basic NRA certificate and will be marketed towards cadets from CAWG Gr. 7.. and is designed around the MOU with the NRA.

We could.. take copious notes and use them as a basis for this, too..


It's got Senior involvement and participation as well.

[cap235629]

Marksmanship training was opened up for seniors some time in the last couple of years.  I will find the appropriate documentation and post/link it here