We were marching in formation when our flight commander ordered the road guards to prevent cars from running into the flight. We were singing jodies while the road guards were still standing where they were told to. We were at least a block away when he realized that the road guards were left behind. We stopped and let them catch up. After that, we always had to remind him to call the road guards back
Very common.
Perfect training opportunity for situational awareness and positive control of the unit.
Where were your senior members? I always watch road guards to make sure they are where they are supposed to be and are called in when not needed.
Quote from: GaryVC on September 10, 2018, 09:05:35 PM
Where were your senior members? I always watch road guards to make sure they are where they are supposed to be and are called in when not needed.
The perfect story twist would be that the SMs were the road guards.
Quote from: GaryVC on September 10, 2018, 09:05:35 PM
Where were your senior members? I always watch road guards to make sure they are where they are supposed to be and are called in when not needed.
Sounds like the TO's were doing a "teaching moment" with the flight cadre. i.e. don't get so busy singing that sweet, sweet jody that you forget to drive the flight.
Had to take control of the flight from the cadre the year before last when they were so busy doing a jody that they tried to enter an intersection with no road guard and there was traffic coming. They didn't like me doing that, but they didn't forget to drive the flight again either.
Quote from: Holding Pattern on September 10, 2018, 09:11:46 PM
Quote from: GaryVC on September 10, 2018, 09:05:35 PM
Where were your senior members? I always watch road guards to make sure they are where they are supposed to be and are called in when not needed.
The perfect story twist would be that the SMs were the road guards.
SM's are never the road guards. We ensure it is safe to post the road guards before they're posted. But the road guards are members of the flight who have the road guard vests.
Quote from: GaryVC on September 10, 2018, 09:05:35 PM
Where were your senior members? I always watch road guards to make sure they are where they are supposed to be and are called in when not needed.
We were on our way somewhere. Also, you don't need senior members to be near you at all times if you have a radio
Quote from: Color Guard Rifleman on September 11, 2018, 12:10:38 AM
Quote from: GaryVC on September 10, 2018, 09:05:35 PM
Where were your senior members? I always watch road guards to make sure they are where they are supposed to be and are called in when not needed.
We were on our way somewhere. Also, you don't need senior members to be near you at all times if you have a radio
That depends on the proximity and locations of separation.
But as for the road guards themselves, that's an excellent teaching moment. As TOs, we would stand back and watch them 'screw it up' for the sake of letting it happen until it finally needed to be corrected. Nothing wrong with a "Hey, where are your guys" and watching the cadet-in-charge become frantic because he 'lost a cadet.' It teaches you to take accountability and know where your people are.
That said, right back to the proximity of senior members, don't let cadets be so far away that you don't know where they are or what they're up to (that's a CAPR requirement).
Quote from: Color Guard Rifleman on September 11, 2018, 12:10:38 AM
Quote from: GaryVC on September 10, 2018, 09:05:35 PM
Where were your senior members? I always watch road guards to make sure they are where they are supposed to be and are called in when not needed.
We were on our way somewhere. Also, you don't need senior members to be near you at all times if you have a radio
Yes, you do need a SM Within sight of all cadet activities. CPPT requirement.
Quote from: MSG Mac on September 11, 2018, 01:01:34 AM
Quote from: Color Guard Rifleman on September 11, 2018, 12:10:38 AM
Quote from: GaryVC on September 10, 2018, 09:05:35 PM
Where were your senior members? I always watch road guards to make sure they are where they are supposed to be and are called in when not needed.
We were on our way somewhere. Also, you don't need senior members to be near you at all times if you have a radio
Yes, you do need a SM Within sight of all cadet activities. CPPT requirement.
That's not accurate.
CAPR 60-2:
Quote2.4.5. Proximity of Supervisor. Because each physical environment, mixture of cadets' grades
and ages, and nature of activity is different, CAP does not set a firm rule regarding the proximity
between a group of cadets and their adult leader supervisor. If supervisors do not have direct line of
sight contact with cadets, they must nevertheless be aware of where the cadets are, what they are
doing, and check up on them periodically
And you mean CPP, not "CPPT"
That's correct, but I can't imagine letting a flight (or larger) off on their own during an encampment
with no supervision, especially where they might be crossing roads.
Considering there's supposed to be at least one Training Officer per flight, there's also no reason to let
that happen.
A best practice is an adult with eyes-on at all times appropriate.
Cadets are infinitely creative, and many, many 78s have been needed due to things that occurred in the spaces between "periodically".
Quote from: Eclipse on September 11, 2018, 01:58:08 AM
That's correct, but I can't imagine letting a flight (or larger) off on their own during an encampment
with no supervision, especially where they might be crossing roads.
To be fair, the Alpena CRTC (where MIWG holds their encampments) isn't exactly bustling with vehicle traffic. Especially when the encampment is the only user of the base that week. And those of us who do operate vehicles during the week are familiar enough with the base to know the routes the marching cadets are taking, and also the alternate routes to avoid them.
But yes, it's very common for senior members, be they TOs or anyone else, to use something like that as a teachable moment in personnel accountability and properly driving the flight.
Where was that particular flight's TO? Couldn't say for certain because I wasn't there, but any one of several places; taking a PD class (with the CTO or another flight TO covering theirs as well), in the water wagon (CAP van that follows the cadets around), on a hospital run, etc.
Quote from: Eclipse on September 11, 2018, 01:58:08 AM
That's correct, but I can't imagine letting a flight (or larger) off on their own during an encampment
with no supervision, especially where they might be crossing roads.
Considering there's supposed to be at least one Training Officer per flight, there's also no reason to let
that happen.
Now that's totally fair, and I absolutely agree.
There is supposed to be a Training Officer with each flight at all times. Where they go, you go. We did have a situation at our Encampment this year in which an entire squadron separated without any Training Officers. Cadet Deputy Commander told the Squadron Commander to move out; so he did. Flight Commanders followed. Nobody told the TOs, who found out about 10 minutes later. But it was quickly corrected. Learning opportunity for cadets (inform your leadership) and seniors (know where your assets are at all times). No big deal.
There are a number of situations that TOs may not have been immediately present with eyes-on, but nonetheless accompanying the flight. And there's nothing concrete here to say TOs didn't actually see what occurred.
Take this whole thing with a grain of salt. It's cadet hearsay (not to discredit a cadet, but cautious).
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on September 11, 2018, 02:00:18 PM
Take this whole thing with a grain of salt. It's cadet hearsay (not to discredit a cadet, but cautious).
I always do - certain things just give me the willies.
Quote from: Slim on September 11, 2018, 06:28:34 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on September 11, 2018, 01:58:08 AM
That's correct, but I can't imagine letting a flight (or larger) off on their own during an encampment
with no supervision, especially where they might be crossing roads.
To be fair, the Alpena CRTC (where MIWG holds their encampments) isn't exactly bustling with vehicle traffic. Especially when the encampment is the only user of the base that week. And those of us who do operate vehicles during the week are familiar enough with the base to know the routes the marching cadets are taking, and also the alternate routes to avoid them.
But yes, it's very common for senior members, be they TOs or anyone else, to use something like that as a teachable moment in personnel accountability and properly driving the flight.
Where was that particular flight's TO? Couldn't say for certain because I wasn't there, but any one of several places; taking a PD class (with the CTO or another flight TO covering theirs as well), in the water wagon (CAP van that follows the cadets around), on a hospital run, etc.
At CRTC there are roads running through the base, so we have to deploy road guards. Also, the activities occur within 1/4 of a mile of the center of the base. We aren't 5 miles away from base
Quote from: Color Guard Rifleman on September 11, 2018, 05:05:45 PM
At CRTC there are roads running through the base, so we have to deploy road guards. Also, the activities occur within 1/4 of a mile of the center of the base. We aren't 5 miles away from base
Got it - so they are well inside the "nothing bad could
ever happen" perimeter.
Quote from: Eclipse on September 11, 2018, 05:55:16 PM
Quote from: Color Guard Rifleman on September 11, 2018, 05:05:45 PM
At CRTC there are roads running through the base, so we have to deploy road guards. Also, the activities occur within 1/4 of a mile of the center of the base. We aren't 5 miles away from base
Got it - so they are well inside the "nothing bad could ever happen" perimeter.
Yes ;)
Wow!
That sarcasm went right past your head!
Studies show there is a high percentage that accidents happen within short miles of any person's destination. Because people relax.
"Oh, there are no cars going by..."
"Oh, we are in a military base. People drive carefully here since..." "a heavy fine can happen..." Or "Military Police enforces the rules regarding traffic..."
"People drive carefully here since they know there are always military formations on the roads..."
Etc.
???
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on September 11, 2018, 07:28:58 PM
Wow!
That sarcasm went right past your head!
Studies show there is a high percentage that accidents happen within short miles of any person's destination. Because people relax.
"Oh, there are no cars going by..."
"Oh, we are in a military base. People drive carefully here since..." "a heavy fine can happen..." Or "Military Police enforces the rules regarding traffic..."
"People drive carefully here since they know there are always military formations on the roads..."
Etc.
???
Reminds me of a situation that frequently occurs where I work. I work on a scenic tourist railroad, and we constantly have people getting mad at us when we so rudely interrupt them with horn and bell as they try to walk/take cheesy photos of themselves on the railroad track. Their excuse? "I didn't realize trains still ran on this track!" or "The trains move so slow that they aren't dangerous!" (Which is by the way not true... at all..). A train on a railroad track? Unthinkable!! ::) Just goes to show how people ignore or disregard the potential dangers of their surroundings... be it cars on a road or a train on the rails.
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on September 11, 2018, 07:28:58 PM
Wow!
That sarcasm went right past your head!
Studies show there is a high percentage that accidents happen within short miles of any person's destination. Because people relax.
"Oh, there are no cars going by..."
"Oh, we are in a military base. People drive carefully here since..." "a heavy fine can happen..." Or "Military Police enforces the rules regarding traffic..."
"People drive carefully here since they know there are always military formations on the roads..."
Etc.
???
There also is minimal traffic as in one or two cars and the speed limit at the base is around 10mph. It's also really hard to know when it is sarcasm when you aren't directly talking to someone
Quote from: Color Guard Rifleman on September 12, 2018, 02:35:41 PM
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on September 11, 2018, 07:28:58 PM
Wow!
That sarcasm went right past your head!
Studies show there is a high percentage that accidents happen within short miles of any person's destination. Because people relax.
"Oh, there are no cars going by..."
"Oh, we are in a military base. People drive carefully here since..." "a heavy fine can happen..." Or "Military Police enforces the rules regarding traffic..."
"People drive carefully here since they know there are always military formations on the roads..."
Etc.
???
There also is minimal traffic as in one or two cars and the speed limit at the base is around 10mph. It's also really hard to know when it is sarcasm when you aren't directly talking to someone
Slow moving, infrequent traffic can kill you just as dead as fast moving, frequent traffic... especially if you let your guard down by assuming said slow moving, infrequent traffic isn't a hazard (it is).
Quote from: Color Guard Rifleman on September 12, 2018, 02:35:41 PM
There also is minimal traffic as in one or two cars and the speed limit at the base is around 10mph. It's also really hard to know when it is sarcasm when you aren't directly talking to someone
Fair enough, but you now know there is no such thing as a "nothing bad could ever happen" perimeter,
complacency is what generates 78's.
The next time you find yourself at an encampment or similar activity without a T-O around, ask where he is.
I think we beat up the C/TSgt's post enough about how to run Encampment and the role of TOs. Sounds more like an issue that should be addressed with seniors. The cadet's high-ho story got way blown out of proportion.
Quote from: Eclipse on September 12, 2018, 05:26:27 PM
The next time you find yourself at an encampment or similar activity without a T-O around, ask where he is.
I do consider this to be sound advice. "Hey, where's our staff at?"
But without knowing, was C/ Killeen here on cadre or a student? I'm assuming student. Not really his responsibility at that point.
And on that note (G#), we're done.
Click.