NCO Program update from the field

[Eclipse]

^ Thank you.

Still waiting on that "one thing" - it's been 15+ years here and still nada.

[JohhnyD]

^ Thank you.

Still waiting on that "one thing" - it's been 15+ years here and still nada.

That "one thing" is work. The current service NCOs also have access to their own network. The resources our NCO team have brought to bear have been astounding. But if you don't want to deal with it, like your aversion to social media, don't.

My report is the success we have had. And it is real.

[Fubar]

If letting interested people keep the bling they're used to from their military days helps recruit great members, it's probably worth it. My only concern is that a new member who thinks they "had" to keep their stripes because they're better than officers or feel they've "earned them" demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of how CAP works. That could come back to bite them in the rear pretty hard down the road as they come to grasp that regardless of your bling, everyone does everything regardless of insignia. Hopefully the NCO indoc process pushes pretty hard that, hey, great you're a NCO, we're thrilled you're here but being a NCO really won't matter in the context of CAP.

I've seen it on multiple occasions with prior military folks coming into CAP and getting all wrapped around the axel trying to stick to the military processes they are used to, thinking only certain people are supposed to do certain things, and my favorite, thinking we adhere to most military customs (one prior service army guy told a cadet not to salute him at an FTX because, "you don't salute officers as it tells the snipers who to shoot first." Dude, if we're worried about snipers out here, we're gonna have to redo the ORM matrix).

While integrating a NCO into the cadet program or regular squadron duties isn't any different than any other member, NHQ continues to push special NCO assignments that have no clear job duties other than "to be NCOs" which is neither helpful to the units being assigned NCO nor to the NCO who likely wants to contribute in a meaningful manner.

Lastly, as someone who has worked with plenty of NCOs inside and outside of CAP, there is nothing I would assume about their capabilities just because they're wearing stripes. Their capabilities vary as much as the people in any other profession.

[NovemberWhiskey]

That "one thing" is work. The current service NCOs also have access to their own network. The resources our NCO team have brought to bear have been astounding.

The question that is being asked is not "what good are [former] service NCOs in CAP?".

The question is "why is it important that those NCOs are recruited into CAP as CAP NCO-grades?". Or, alternatively put, "what is the purpose of the CAP NCO program?".

You keep answering the first question with responses about the distinctive experience, values, network etc. of people who are/have been military NCOs. We're actually looking for an answer to the other question. i.e. why is it important that when SMSgt Jane Goodfellow joins CAP, she is appointed at the grade of SMSgt rather than 1st Lt?

Now, there are all kinds of bad reasons, as Fubar explains so eloquently in the post above. We're hoping you have some good ones. To make it abundantly clear, the answer should be of the form "CAP NCOs can do ..." not "Current and former service NCOs can do ..."

[JohhnyD]

The question is "why is it important that those NCOs are recruited into CAP as CAP NCO-grades?". Or, alternatively put, "what is the purpose of the CAP NCO program?".

1 - The NCOs prefer remaining NCOs.
2 - Their ability to relate to the cadets, especially with regards to customs, courtesies and drill and ceremonies is FAR superior to other CAP members.
3 - In many cases their service-related connections are valuable.
4 - Their NCO service training has been reflected in their volunteer service. It shows in their professionalism and extraordinary work ethic.

#1 is the basic "why", but it also allows them to be seen as NCOs, and that distinction has a value all its own.

Finally, why keep asking? I am reporting on our positive experience with the program. You are free to ignore it. It works, it adds value in recruiting, retention and overall efficiency, but it is not mandantory.

[NovemberWhiskey]

Finally, why keep asking?

... because there doesn't actually seem to be a good answer? ... because we don't get it?

CAP is an organization of limited resources, particularly at the National level, and the volunteer membership has a reasonable right to ask questions about effectiveness. You offered an update on '[the] NCO Program ... from the field', and you shouldn't be surprised if people ask questions about what the program actually means to you, particularly if that program doesn't make sense to them.

If you didn't expect questions, then I suggest that you've been on CAP Talk long enough to know that your expectation was ill-formed.

In your list of reasons, #2 through #4 are all, still, answering the same wrong question. #1 gets closer to the heart of the matter but begs the question. It assumes that there's an NCO role in CAP to which being a service NCO has some kind of continuity. As discussed, ad nauseam, there is not. There is only CAP senior membership, which is just the same as NCO or officer grade.

If "remain [an] NCO" just means "wear a uniform that more closely approximates the one I wore in the service, and have a CAP grade that sounds like the grade I had in the service" then that's totally fine. The NCO "program" is just a recruitment hook, as has previously been suggested. There's nothing innately wrong with that.

[JohhnyD]

In your list of reasons, #2 through #4 are all, still, answering the same wrong question. #1 gets closer to the heart of the matter but begs the question. It assumes that there's an NCO role in CAP to which being a service NCO has some kind of continuity. As discussed, ad nauseam, there is not. There is only CAP senior membership, which is just the same as NCO or officer grade.

OK, so ignore the NCO program. Ignore the success. Since there is no distinction wrt to grade, why not eliminate all of them? (BTW the answer is the cadet program would suffer, and the cadet program benefits when seeing active CAP NCOs, but you discount that, so, OK - ignore the whole thing.)

[Spam]

Well first up, Johhny, I want to thank you - you did answer MY question fully (regarding recruiting). 

Secondly, I feel that it is important to recognize that all our CAP grades ("officer" or "noncom") are honorary only (I got some flak for using the perjorative label "pretend" w.r.t. CAP Colonels and SNCOs in another earlier thread, so I apologize and I'll avoid that in the future). Regardless of hurt feelings, any CAP repeat CAP grade is purely honorary... none of our "officers" hold a commission from the Congress of the United States, and none of our "NCOs" or formerly warrants hold similar warrants or delegated authority from the Departments of the Air Force or other branches. If you WERE an AD Lt Col, you NOW are a CAP honorary Lt Col, and same as a former NCO.

So, from that perspective, when there are zero differences in terms of the job duties in local billets, and CAP "officers" and "NCOs" are treated exactly alike in terms of responsibility and duty performance, the only resulting difference would be seeing a different uniform. So we're back to that. It is all about uniforms, and attitudes, only.

If the use of a uniform and a honorary rank works well to recruit people, just as it presumably does for dentists and CFIs, then to return to my original point, I would support the NCO corps program wholeheartedly. We need people with motivation.

However, finally, the prejudiced statements about perceived worth of "officers" and the divisive statements about the work ethic of other members, are inappropriate for training instructors, and if that truly is emblematic of the lack of respect being demonstrated in front of receptive cadets, then I would absolutely shut the NCO program down regardless of any improvement in recruiting, before they infect impressionable cadets. I don't believe that's a typical mindset although I've seen/heard it in CAP before, sadly, and that's a watch item for me among my squadrons. I too have heard the "work for a living" cracks, and the "don't salute me in the field" sniper comments, oddly enough, but pushing a culture of disrespect is UNSAT. Further, I've spoken with literally dozens of great cadet SNCOs over my several decades in CAP who stuck/stagnated and refused to progress to their Mitchell and beyond because they had been infected with the "cult of noncom" instead of a balanced professional ethos. They had learned a disrespectful and disdainful attitude towards becoming a cadet officer (which is the stated program goal, to turn cadets into cadet officers). That is a CP mission fail brought about by these attitudes which unless carefully countered, is actually detrimental to the program.

Thanks for your feedback and best wishes for growing a healthy program.

V/r
Spam

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cadet

ca·det | \ kə-ˈdet 

Definition of cadet2a: one in training for a military or naval commission [emphasis added "commission"]

especially : a student in a service academy

[Eclipse]

^^^ This, all day...except...

all our CAP grades ("officer" or "noncom") are honorary only

Untrue - they have meaning and weight within CAP, in the same way that other organizations use similar insignia and designations within their respective organizations.

The only "honorary" grade(s) are the ones presented to (generally older) members as lifetime capstones or
in recognition of some singular achievement (often outside of CAP).

Just because CAP grades do not confer authority, per se, that doesn't make them "honorary".

[Spam]

^^^ This, all day...except...

all our CAP grades ("officer" or "noncom") are honorary only

Untrue - they have meaning and weight within CAP, in the same way that other organizations use similar insignia and designations within their respective organizations.

The only "honorary" grade(s) are the ones presented to (generally older) members as lifetime capstones or
in recognition of some singular achievement (often outside of CAP).

Just because CAP grades do not confer authority, per se, that doesn't make them "honorary".

Fair enough from that point of view.

V/r
Spam

[JohhnyD]

any CAP repeat CAP grade is purely honorary...

I disagree. They represent achievements - real achievements. To call them "purely honorary" is not at all accurate.

[JohhnyD]

However, finally, the prejudiced statements about perceived worth of "officers" and the divisive statements about the work ethic of other members, a

No where did I denigrate other members, I referred to the positive aspects of the NCOs. You read more into that than I said.

[JohhnyD]

So, from that perspective, when there are zero differences in terms of the job duties in local billets, and CAP "officers" and "NCOs" are treated exactly alike in terms of responsibility and duty performance, the only resulting difference would be seeing a different uniform. So we're back to that. It is all about uniforms, and attitudes, only.

It is about my actual experience. Your mileage may vary.

[NovemberWhiskey]

Untrue - they have meaning and weight within CAP, in the same way that other organizations use similar insignia and designations within their respective organizations.

Right; outside of the tiny fraction of adult membership that will wear eagles or stars, CAP grade does have meaning but that meaning is essentially "degree of progress within the senior member professional development program or possession of a mission-related skill".

[JohhnyD]

My questions for all of the naysayers and critics:

1 - What experiences have you had with CAP NCO's?
2 - Have you or anyone in your unit reached out to the recruiting stations and NG and Reserve units in your area?

[NovemberWhiskey]

No where did I denigrate other members, I referred to the positive aspects of the NCOs

When you wrote (I paraphrase, loosely) "A has a level of professionalism, specialized knowledge and superior work ethic that is amazing; my experience with B has been very different. B tend to be talkers rather than doers, unless they get to fly", did it not occur to you that you might be seen to praising A at the expense of B?

It seems several readers have taken that impression.

[JohhnyD]

It seems several readers have taken that impression.

They may have chosen to attribute a negative spin to what I reported. I'd suggest that, in the future, they assume respect as well as showing it.

[Spam]

My questions for all of the naysayers and critics:

1 - What experiences have you had with CAP NCO's?
2 - Have you or anyone in your unit reached out to the recruiting stations and NG and Reserve units in your area?

I'm not sure that I'm a naysayer, but I am a critic (of everything) so:

1. Since joining in 1983 I've seen CAP NCOs go (as a recognized thing), and come back. In the context of every member wanting to feel valued and special, they understandably have a desire to be recognized (as specialists, in this case as cadet specialists). However, as I've observed them, their performance as a group has not significantly varied from other members. It is in this respect analogous to other "specialist" groups within CAP (e.g. Hawk Mountain and BB graduates, with special attitudes and special uniforms but really, just normalized performance). I've not observed any particular performance linked to the stripes, as you might expect a USAF/USN weapons school "patch wearer" graduate to be incrementally better/expert at their job. As I say, on occasion I've run across the corrosive elitist attitude which required corrective command action, but that hasn't ever reached the level of systematic problems (yet). But, as with all "special" people, this is a watch item for me as a CAP commander.

2. Yes, numerous times over the years - while commanding units on and off bases. I've worked with numerous AD and former NCOs (and officers) as fellow CAP members. With many of these we had to draw their background out of them, and it wasn't a Big Thing (i.e. they could care less about grade/status, they just wanted to fly or teach). Thus, I was interested in your specific focused recruiting via selling and presenting to vets groups, and the resulting retention and other factors. Thanks.

V/r
Spam

PS, Johhny, you may not hear it, but we do. Your statements do indicate a very clear anti-officer bias, which if culturally spread through cadets is indeed a problem in an officer training program:

""I was a sergeant, I worked for a living. "
"a professionalism and specialized knowledge, coupled with a superior work ethic, that is amazing. My experience with prior service officers is very different. They tend to be talkers rather than doers, unless they get to fly."

[JohhnyD]

PS, Johhny, you may not hear it, but we do. Your statements do indicate a very clear anti-officer bias, which if culturally spread through cadets is indeed a problem in an officer training program:

Not a bias, an actual set of experiences. None of which I share with the cadets.

Now, maybe you could be the first to answer the questions I posed above?

[NovemberWhiskey]

They may have chosen to attribute a negative spin to what I reported. I'd suggest that, in the future, they assume respect as well as showing it.

It is very sad to see a criticism of your colleagues wrapped up in an appeal to our core values like that.

There was no disrespect implied in my question; and it came after giving the largest possible margin for the benefit of doubt. In the spirit of improvement and with all respect, allow me to suggest simply that if your intent is to give credit for the qualities of one group, then doing so without contrasting another is the better way to go.