CAP Former Cadets Successes & Failures

[Eclipse]

Its not about "rank" its about leadership, and understanding the fundamentals of how CAP works (and doesn't).  If you believe that grade is the only reason PD is important, you are sadly mistaken and have been ill-served by your leaders who's job it was to help you understand CAP.

For every 1 member who chooses to hyper-specialize and is successful, I can show you 10 who failed or are poor performers because they can't be bothered to do anything but tasks directly related their hyper-specialty.

These members whine like toddlers when you ask them to do anything related to keeping the doors open, the planes flying, and their personal qualifications validated, and then are the first to complain when the doors close behind them, "their" plane is moved, or their quals dried up because there was no one to do the paperwork.

Without people taking the time to get educated and experienced in the running of the corporation and the fostering of the general membership, there is no CAP.  Our lack of intestinal fortitude in regards to expectations for PD is the exact reason we are in the position we are in.

Many of our Commanders and other leaders have never cracked a reg, attended an SLS/CLC, nor have they any reason to believe these are important.  Then we all wonder why uniforms, policies, and other important but seemingly basic aspects of the program are like rocket science.

In some cases it might as well be because there is literally a complete absence of the knowledge or even the awareness of the "problem".

PD isn't parallel to or instead of operational ability, it is mission-critical to it.  Without the Commanders and staff officers filling in the blanks between missions...wait for it...THERE ARE NO MISSIONS.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Grade is NOT the only reason professional development is important. I get that. But my point is not that the senior member training program or the cadet program are irrelevant. It's that outside of meeting the minimum PD criteria to involve oneself in ES (Curry achievement, Level I), there are few (if any) grade requirements for ES roles. If you choose to use the ES specialty tracks for promotion, that's great, but many of us didn't use them to advance through Levels 2 and 3. Some people can put ES in a grotto and operate without it in CAP (seems like a lot of cadet squadrons are like that). You can make it through Level V without much ES exposure. Heck, you can get a Spaatz Award without it.

I disagree that it's because some commanders haven't cracked the regs that policies as simple as uniform wear are disregarded. If anything, the indoctrination of CAP policies and procedures should happen before Level I is finished, and that's a major failing of the senior member training program. It isn't until Level II that the ECI AFIADL HQ AU A4/6 Course 13 is introduced, and by then, you have people wearing officer grade who in some cases haven't the slightest clue.. and by then, it's too late -- the habits have been formed. Course 13 should be introduced as part of Level I, not only to properly introduce members to CAP, but to backstop local enforcement of policy (or countermand nonenforcement).

Professional development has little to do with who is appointed to staff positions to sign off on paperwork. A brand-new butterbar can be named a squadron commander (UCC be [darn]ed, he's an automatic first lieutenant). My last unit's ES guy is an IC, but is a captain, and my wing has at least one first lieutenant on its IC roster. As much as we'd like to tie the two together, it doesn't work that way right now.

Point is, it's whomever is in a position of authority who can sign off on something, and it comes back to how grade is earned in CAP (by professional development training, not by position or duty). It's a commander's butt in a sling if he's pencil-whipping people through. That's where integrity comes in, and for some, it's apparently still a problem... if it wasn't, we wouldn't have by-invitation-only SAREVALs.

[Rotorhead]

Uhhhhhhh.....its a youth organization.  I think whats more important is what you do after, not what CADET rank you earned.

What is a youth organization? Civil Air Patrol?

That's gonna come as a big surprise to the members of my Senior squadron.

[RedFox24]

Interesting topic........

My comments and opinions......

Civil Air Patrol is 1/3 a youth organization:  The Cadet Program.

Most (I would say 90% based on MY experience) cadets don't join CAP to "complete" anything.  They join to have fun, be with their friends, wear a uniform, get plane rides and look "military".  After they are in the program a while, attend an encampment and get some life direction on what they want to do in life, they then either quit or make getting the Mitchell and other awards a priority.  Very few look upon the Triple Diamond Club as anything to obtain. 

Most former cadets that I am aware of, had in my squadron(s) etc so forth whom "DNF" by some of your standards were not interested in the military or emergency services and are very successful business men and women.  And some are in jail...........Some joined the Air Force, Army, Marines and Navy.  Some did their commitment and got out, and did not come back to CAP.  Some did. 

I was a Double Diamond, who 1) joined CAP because I wanted to have fun, fly in planes, wear a uniform and get to go do neat stuff on military bases, 2) got my Mitchell because of what it would get me if I had joined the Air Force (plan that changed as I saw that what not what I wanted to do for the rest of my life) 3) didn't care squat about much else of the other milestone awards 4) took the Spaatz a few days before my 21st and didn't pass and didn't much care one way or the other 5) turned senior and stuck around because CAP was fun (not so much true anymore) and 6)  commanded a squadron and group because I wanted to see cadets have fun and grow with the experience that CAP could bring them in what ever field they saw as their life's work. 

Most seniors who were not cadets don't understand that the cadet program is not only educational (PD) but FUN and work their butts off to kill any fun (where I think NHQ is headed).  The others think ES is the only reason to have CAP and run cadets off also (again where the program is headed).  Some stupidly believe we are a military organization.  Some think we are the local "Rescue Rickey" volunteer homeland insecurity department or what ever.  Sadly my experience is that most seniors who were not cadets don't get what being a cadet was and is all about. Do we need these seniors, yes, but they need to be trained and not by PowerPoint. 

So based on comments here on this thread, as a former cadet who only got his Lt Col, I am a failure and a DNF.  So be it.............

If completing Level 5 is considered "finishing" the CAP senior program, then I will not finish that either.  I have no current desire to waste my time on such for just having more junk to hang on the wall or pin on my shirt.  I also don't want to associate with those who only see getting more ribbons and such as the be all to end all of any program.  That is what is wrong with many of our organizations: Out for ones own self promotion and interest. 

There are plenty of Three Diamonds and Level 5 "finishes" in the wing, region and NHQ who are total failures as leaders in this organization.  But if that is the only measure of success then we have a really misguided sense of what constitutes achievement and we deserve the leaders and "successes" we get. 

Also there is not a DNF in a volunteer organization, you un-volunteer.  Which is happening a lot in CAP as of late.  Shouldn't that tell us something?


Also John, Thank You for your service to this country and welcome home! :clap:

[BuckeyeDEJ]

There are plenty of Three Diamonds and Level 5 "finishes" in the wing, region and NHQ who are total failures as leaders in this organization.  But if that is the only measure of success then we have a really misguided sense of what constitutes achievement and we deserve the leaders and "successes" we get. 

It's because those finishes are based on what these people get out of books, but not necessarily true leadership and management ability. If CAP had officer fitness reports tied to promotions and awards, we wouldn't see so many Gill Robb Wilsons, would we? And we'd probably see a lot more former military folks in leadership positions.

[Flying Pig]

Uhhhhhhh.....its a youth organization.  I think whats more important is what you do after, not what CADET rank you earned.

What is a youth organization? Civil Air Patrol?

That's gonna come as a big surprise to the members of my Senior squadron.

I was talking about  the earlier posts where people were refering to the cadet ranks they had earned.

[Ned]

Uhhhhhhh.....its a youth organization.  I think whats more important is what you do after, not what CADET rank you earned.

What is a youth organization? Civil Air Patrol?

That's gonna come as a big surprise to the members of my Senior squadron.

I don't think they will be surprised to learn that the cadet program is the largest part of CAP in terms of personnel involved and manhours expended.

After all, I'll bet they have done more than their share of supporting o-rides and things like encampment.

Thank them for me.

Ned Lee
National Cadet Advisor
(Cool job, Crummy job title)

[Johnny Yuma]

The suggestion that completion of the milestone awards is an indication of one's success or failure touches a nerve with me.

WIWAC we had a kid who wasn't allowed to get his Mitchell thanks to an [censored] of a unit commander who had it in for the kid. Despite this cadet's "failure" he managed to enlist in the U.S. Army, complete flight school and is now a W-5 IP flying Chinooks somewhere downrange.

Then we have a Spaatz cadet (NEC took the award from him) sitting on death row in a Texas prison with his ex-girlfriend doing life.

Ain't Karma something?

Language.  Can still tell what word it was. - MIKE

[JohnKachenmeister]

And... his ex-girlfriend who did the murder with him was a former Earhart Cadet!

[AlphaSigOU]

[The disgraced ex-Spaatz cadink] is serving life at the 'Huntsville Hilton'. (Ellis Unit, Texas Department of Corrections). [The disgraced Earhart cadink] is doing life at the 'Gatesville Hilton' (Mountain View Unit, TDC). Neither one will be eligible for parole until at least 2036.

[James Shaw]

I personally think that the measure of success in this or any other program is not based on the program or what level they achieved. I believe it is bassed on what the individual personally achieved for themselves that matters.

It may be the lessons they learn from the program that help them achieve. Does not matter if they were in for 10 years or 10 days. What did it do for them. Are they a better person is the real question for success and failure.

[Flying Pig]

[The disgraced ex-Spaatz cadink] is serving life at the 'Huntsville Hilton'. (Ellis Unit, Texas Department of Corrections). [The disgraced Earhart cadink] is doing life at the 'Gatesville Hilton' (Mountain View Unit, TDC). Neither one will be eligible for parole until at least 2036.

If your sitting on death row, your never eligible for parole.  Whats the situation with those two?  Never heard of it.

[Major Carrales]

[The disgraced ex-Spaatz cadink] is serving life at the 'Huntsville Hilton'. (Ellis Unit, Texas Department of Corrections). [The disgraced Earhart cadink] is doing life at the 'Gatesville Hilton' (Mountain View Unit, TDC). Neither one will be eligible for parole until at least 2036.

If your sitting on death row, your never eligible for parole.  Whats the situation with those two?  Never heard of it.

Really?  I mean they even made a movie about it that comes out on Lifetime (I know this because my wife pointed it out to me).

Just google "Texas cadet," the first item will be the Texas Cadet Programs webpage, followed by plenty of details.

[JohnKachenmeister]

[The disgraced ex-Spaatz cadink] is serving life at the 'Huntsville Hilton'. (Ellis Unit, Texas Department of Corrections). [The disgraced Earhart cadink] is doing life at the 'Gatesville Hilton' (Mountain View Unit, TDC). Neither one will be eligible for parole until at least 2036.

If your sitting on death row, your never eligible for parole.  Whats the situation with those two?  Never heard of it.

They got their 15 minutes of fame back in the 1990's, I think.  Both were CAP cadets, and both were accepted to military academies, him to the AF, and her to the Naval Academy.  During a leave, he had a fling with a pretty blonde Texas sweetheart, and somehow his main midship-person squeeze found out about it.

They decided the only way to prove his undying love for her was for him to murder the blonde fling.  They did, and they got caught, and now they are working off their demerits.

[Flying Pig]

[The disgraced ex-Spaatz cadink] is serving life at the 'Huntsville Hilton'. (Ellis Unit, Texas Department of Corrections). [The disgraced Earhart cadink] is doing life at the 'Gatesville Hilton' (Mountain View Unit, TDC). Neither one will be eligible for parole until at least 2036.

If your sitting on death row, your never eligible for parole.  Whats the situation with those two?  Never heard of it.

Really? I mean they even made a movie about it that comes out on Lifetime (I know this because my wife pointed it out to me).

Just google "Texas cadet," the first item will be the Texas Cadet Programs webpage, followed by plenty of details.

Do you mean about being on Death Row?  Yes, when you have been sentenced to Death, there is no parole.  Your there until your dead either way unless you get out on an appeal or something like that.

Okay....I see the confusion, I thought an earlier post said one was on Death Row.  I see it says both are doing life.

[John Bryan]

How sad......they both had everything going for them. They should be Air Force and Naval Officers right now but instead they are inmates. And another human being is dead and who knows what she would have done with her life.

In the end 3 lives "lost"........Very sad.

[FW]

Interesting topic of discussion.

As the years go by, memories of my experiences as a cadet fade however, I still attribute the lessons learned as the basis for the life I lead today.  I got as far as I could before college and "life" began to overtake cadet life.  CAP gave me the skill set to make (for me) the right decisions to succeed and the disipline to prosper.

IMHO, I agree it's not the program, it's what we make out of it that determines success or failure; same as any other life experience. 

[CASH172]

Really?  I mean they even made a movie about it that comes out on Lifetime (I know this because my wife pointed it out to me).

It's hard to tell if all you do is watch the movie.  CAP only has about 2 seconds of fame, and I mean literally 2 seconds, in the whole movie.

Now the book is filled with details about CAP and the whole storyline.

[MikeD]

So on a different note, there's a former C/Col in my squadron, now a SM Capt, he's a student intern at NASA and is working on building up hours to be a MP. 

A former cadet that used to be in my squadron was recently PCS'd back to the east coast, he's an Air Force cop and active in CAP at his new location. 

Both are still active with ES and the cadet program. 

[flyboy53]

Come on guys, you've beat this topic to death (really bad pun). First some of you call people failures who don't achieve Spaatz or Wilson awards and then jump head long into the Texas cadet murder. What a horrible way to describe achievement in the CAP Cadet Program. When I joined the CAP Cadet Program in 1966, the program was still in transition between the training awards and what you now know as the current program. Funny, I didn't look at myself as a failure because I only earned three stripes before the squadron turned senior and I was forced to surrender cadet rank for senior enlisted rank. For me, the goal was observer wings...which I earned and still proudly wear. There were plenty of senior members (including a bunch of wartime members) then who never got above captain and the rare rank then was major. I don't think anyone of those wartime officers considered themselves as failures, but I could guarantee that people listened when they spoke. In the Air Force (and obviously I started as a slick sleve), I don't remember the TI telling us we would be failures if we didn't achieve the top three enlisted grades. Instead, I remember the statistic of only 5 percent make it to E-7 master sergeant...so when I got to that rank, I was satisified with the achievement and I really didn't have an urge to go further because of all I had to do to get there. Now, I'm a Lt. Col. with Level 4 and Squadron Officer School under my belt. I relish that acheivement...If I get a Wilson, it will be because my wife and family has blessed that goal...and you know what, the CAP ribbons don't mean a thing in regard to the five rows of AF decorations and badge bling that I wear. I remember sometime ago a story in the magazine that detailed a general who only spent a couple of years in the program and didn't achieve a Mitchell. His journey to general wasn't based on a Spaatz Award. My current job in elected government had nothing to do with the CAP and more due to my Air Force experience and level of college education. The point is, it isn't the destination (award) that's important, it's the journey. If more CAP leaders undestood that, perhaps we wouldn't have such a poor retention rate.