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Incident w/Police

Started by ♠SARKID♠, February 29, 2008, 06:48:12 AM

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Hawk200

Quote from: Hoser on March 04, 2008, 07:40:05 PM
When I have been pulled over, I INTENTIONALLY pull into a parking if possible because that removes the potential of the cop getting ironed out by rubberneckers. I've seen it twice in 30 years of EMS. Kach's comment that the person knows he's going to get arrested is typical cop BS.  ---->The assumption that everyone is guilty and only out for themselves. I was doing my part to see the cop that pulled me over goes home at the end of the day.

I'm not a cop, and I know exactly what Kach meant. Most people with outstanding arrest warrants know that if they get pulled over on a traffic stop, they're going to jail. It wasn't a statement that everyone getting stopped is guilty, only that the guilty ones know what's going to happen when they do get stopped. A lot of criminals with outstanding warrants get taken in this way.

Smokey

Thank you all for your input...after 36 years of doing this I'm still amazed at those of you out there who know my job better than me.   Now can you tell me where all the donut shops are?

I think I will remember that when I tell my doctor how to perform his next surgery.
If you stand for nothing, you will fall for anything.
To err is human, to blame someone else shows good management skills.

JohnKachenmeister

Quote from: Smokey on March 04, 2008, 08:23:13 PM
Thank you all for your input...after 36 years of doing this I'm still amazed at those of you out there who know my job better than me.   Now can you tell me where all the donut shops are?

I think I will remember that when I tell my doctor how to perform his next surgery.

Smokey:

You hit on a good analogy.

You go to a doctor, and he notices a red skin rash.  It could be:

1.  Poison ivy.
2.  Syphillis.
3.  AIDS.
4.  Measles.
5.  Allergy to something.
6.  A million other things.

The doctor doesn't know unless he does more tests, inquiries, and examinations.  If he is a good doctor, though, he has to consider that any of these are possible.

A cop stops a motorist for a traffic violation, and the motorist makes a point of parking legally in a public lot.  This could mean:

1.  The driver is drunk, knows he is about to be arrested, and does not want his car towed.

2.  The driver is wanted, knows he is about to be arrested, and does not want his car towed.

3.  The driver is armed and wanted, and wants a place with fewer witnesses to kill the police officer.

4.  The driver needs a few extra seconds to hide his dope.

5.  The driver needs a few extra seconds to get to his gun to kill the police officer.

6.  The driver wants to get somewhere with less light to hide the bloodstains on the seat from the 6-year old girl he raped and murdered.

7.  The 6-year old girl he raped and murdered is in the trunk, and he does not want his car towed because an inventory search will have to list her body on the tow report.

8.  The driver has a suspended license. or no license at all, and does not want his car towed.

9.  Or... it could mean nothing.

The officer does not know until he does more inquiries.  But based on his experience, driving off the road to stop is sort of like a suspicious rash.  Could be nothing, could be deadly.  Gotta check further.
Another former CAP officer

Eeyore

So, do police officers generally not want you to pull into a parking lot when stopped?

The few times I have been pulled over I tend to try and pull into a parking lot or gas station, just because it isn't on the road and therefore I, and the officer are less likely to get hit by someone who isn't paying attention on the road.

JohnKachenmeister

You guys are starting to sound a little dense.

It does not matter.  If you are not drunk, wanted, or otherwise a criminal, we will find that out soon enough.

And... pulling into a gas station is not pulling into a parking lot and parking legally.  You're still gonna get towed if you get arrested.
Another former CAP officer

Smokey

Please let the police officer direct you where to stop.  Sometimes if you pull into a parking lot, gas station, etc you will block access by legitimate customers.  When we make a stop, we park our cars to give us a tactical advantage which may tie up things even worse if you try to "help" us.  When on the roadway , we offset our cars to the left of yours to give us a safety lane. Yeah, sometimes we still get picked off. But please let us dictate the terms of the stop. It really is safer for us to do it.   You may have been stopped a few times in your life , but some officers may conduct in excess of 25 stops per day. We kinda have this down to an art.

Thank you for your support....even if it is in the way of a traffic fine ;D
If you stand for nothing, you will fall for anything.
To err is human, to blame someone else shows good management skills.

Stonewall

#46
When I lived in Northern Virginia there was some dude going around in an unmarked Crown Vic with lights he got from Gall's or something.  On at least 2 counts, I think it was more like 3 or 4, he pulled over women and raped them.  In particular, one happened in Annandale, VA 2 blocks from my buddy's house (a former cadet turned good friend).  The Fairfax County Police advised the citizens to pull into a well lit area, preferably a populated parking lot, if they didn't feel comfortable or things just didn't look right.  Makes sense to me.

I've been pulled over a few times in my life and I pulled over on side of the road where it was safest for myself and the officer.  All 3 or 4 times the officer was in a marked unit and it was during daylight.  No doubt in my mind the officers were not faking the funk and out to hurt me.

With that said, if I saw some Honda Accord behind me with a visor light flashing, I would absolutely NOT pull over immediately and look for another officer or at a minimum, a populated parking lot.  I'd also get on my cell and call 911 to confirm my suspicions.

Sometimes Common sense prevails.
Serving since 1987.

flyerthom

#47
Quote from: Smokey on March 04, 2008, 08:23:13 PM
Thank you all for your input...after 36 years of doing this I'm still amazed at those of you out there who know my job better than me.   Now can you tell me where all the donut shops are?

I think I will remember that when I tell my doctor how to perform his next surgery.


Krispy Creams


Yes, I am a soul less wise guy   >:D






In all due seriousness, the main concern for everyone is safety. With the few posted caveats about fake police, it's best to just follow direction. It's like getting intercepted while flying. Just follow directions. The one I posted and the one Stonewall posted came from the PD so the officers knew what was up. I know in Vegas Metro warned the public and put out a PR program. A citizen should be aware of local news.

And if you do get pulled over, you're not going to salvage your bad day or get out of anything by being a jerk.
TC

jb512

I have 11 years LE experience; all on the street and mostly with a Sheriff's Office where I usually don't have backup during a stop.

I agree with Smokey 100%, and he has had the best answers.  Recruiter had the worst.

When I light someone up, I want them to come to a complete stop as soon as possible directly against the rightmost portion of the roadway, as the law requires.  If it is a highway with a shoulder, pull as far off the shoulder as you can.  I hate pulling into parking lots because most people circle and circle until they find a parking spot and not only does it put me in a bad tactical position, I end up blocking access to other vehicles.  If I need you to move, I'll tell you over the PA, or I'll tell you after I approach and get your license.

Pulling to the right and remaining straight allows me the best vantage point to the car, and gives my camera the best angle on the stop.

If you are not directly involved in the stop, please do not approach me or my car.  Don't ask what's going on, don't ask for directions, don't tell me some guy cut you off 5 miles back on a road that I can never get to in time to catch the car, and certainly don't pull up behind my car where I can't see you and where you are blocking my lights.  I'm not being mean, I'm just watching my a$$ during the business I have at hand.  If something is going on in your store, then I will be making contact with you as soon as I possibly can. 

I usually try to accomodate people who make these mistakes, but I've been known to tell people to move on because every second I'm talking to you is a second that I'm not watching the violator.

We're not being rude and we're not being disrespectful, we're just making sure that we go home every night to our family.

Gunner C

Quote from: Hoser on March 04, 2008, 07:40:05 PM
Kach's comment that the person knows he's going to get arrested is typical cop BS.

Using the words "typical" and "cop" and "BS" aren't the best choices in the same sentence.  I'd say "typical" and "cop" and "experienced".   >:(

We live in dangerous times and too often the only thing that stands between the citizen and an untimely death is one of those cops you were talking about.  I'm an intelligence guy and the best intel we get is from cops on the streets.  I have a great deal of respect for them - so should you.

GC

Flying Pig

"Police officers conduct every traffic stop extending the olive branch of peace, while at the same time, having a tactical plan to kill everyone inside the vehicle." - Gordon Graham, Attorney

Keep that in that back of your mind next time you are stopped.  Because its at the front of mine.


jb512

Quote from: Flying Pig on March 05, 2008, 08:43:44 AM
"Police officers conduct every traffic stop extending the olive branch of peace, while at the same time, having a tactical plan to kill everyone inside the vehicle." - Gordon Graham, Attorney

Keep that in that back of your mind next time you are stopped.  Because its at the front of mine.

Awesome.

Maj Ballard

I've been pulled over three times in my life. The first was in high school because I was in the "wrong" part of town with a Black boy (who was, incidentally, an attorney's son and captain of the debate team) in the car with me. The first thing the officer said when he approached the car was, "Boy! Get the hell out! Sweetheart don't you know better?" Yes, I filed a complaint. Yes, that officer is still on the force. In fact, he's a Captain. Go figure.

The other two times were after midnight, when I was on my way home from work. Both were on residential roads with very little light. In both instances, I turned on my hazards and drove a little further (40 yds or so) to find a better lit area.

There have been several instances in the last several years of people in north Florida driving Crown Vics, impersonating officers, and in one case sexually assaulting women on "traffic stops." In other cases, the women felt uneasy and drove to a public place. That decision probably saved their lives.

After these incidents, the police began telling women in particular to do just as I did: indicate intention to pull over, find a well-lit area, and if you feel uneasy call 911 to confirm it is a legitimate stop. They came on the news and told us that any "real" cop won't have a problem with that course of action. Were they wrong?
L. Ballard, Major, CAP

davedove

Quote from: Captain B on March 05, 2008, 11:55:00 AM
There have been several instances in the last several years of people in north Florida driving Crown Vics, impersonating officers, and in one case sexually assaulting women on "traffic stops." In other cases, the women felt uneasy and drove to a public place. That decision probably saved their lives.

After these incidents, the police began telling women in particular to do just as I did: indicate intention to pull over, find a well-lit area, and if you feel uneasy call 911 to confirm it is a legitimate stop. They came on the news and told us that any "real" cop won't have a problem with that course of action. Were they wrong?

No, because it was the police telling you to do it.  At that point it became the accepted procedure.  All of the police on patrol should have known and expected it.

BUT, that doesn't mean it would be the accepted procedure in other areas.
David W. Dove, Maj, CAP
Deputy Commander for Seniors
Personnel/PD/Asst. Testing Officer
Ground Team Leader
Frederick Composite Squadron
MER-MD-003

Maj Ballard

This isn't the only area I've heard that advice/instruction given, though. Motorists are told all the time (on the news, by AAA, by ubiquitous e-mail forwards, etc.) to follow the procedures I described, including "driving to a well lit area." I honestly want to know if that advice is, across the board, wrong.

I mean, case in point: Here's a quote from a random law enforcement site I found while Googling "traffic stop"

QuoteWhat should you do when an officer signals you to pull over

Pull your vehicle over as far to the right of the roadway as is safely possible.  If there is a safe, non-congested area, such as a parking lot, within a reasonable distance, pull off the road, stop and place your vehicle in park.  Being stopped at night, particularly along a dark stretch of road, can heighten the stress for motorists and officers.  Officers do not object to drivers proceeding to a nearby well-lit area.  Simply acknowledge the officer by turning on your turn signal and drive at a reduced speed.

This is from a police department website.
L. Ballard, Major, CAP

Stonewall

Quote from: Captain B on March 05, 2008, 11:55:00 AM
I've been pulled over three times in my life. The first was in high school because I was in the "wrong" part of town with a Black boy in the car with me.

I've heard this type of thing several times.

So they told you they pulled you over because you were white, had a black kid in the car with you, and were in the wrong part of town?  Yes, that does sound bad, and wrong.

As someone who only works at night, I can tell you this, 95% of the time I am unable to see the person's race, gender or often times how many people are in the car until I'm up at the car with my flashlight shining in.  There are a million reasons to pull someone over, most are justified, some are but don't seem so.

When they told your friend to get out of the car, did they send him walking?  Put him in cuffs?  Tell him to get back in the car?
Serving since 1987.

Maj Ballard

It was in the daytime. I lived in a tiny town in Missouri. The officer knew exactly who was in the car (and who our families were) when he pulled us over. He made my friend sit in the police car while he talked to me. He lectured me about "knowing better," and "what people would think," and how he ought to go talk to my father, etc. Incidently, my dad was fully aware of who I was with and where we were going. It was ridiculous. Afterward, he let my friend get back in the car and told him to "watch himself." That was my first (but certainly not last) lesson in racial politics where I grew up. What's scary is that it was 1995 and not 1955. /drift
L. Ballard, Major, CAP

Stonewall

Gotcha, got your "after midnight" example mixed up.

Yep, that's wrong.  No doubt about it.  As Flying Pig said, law enforcement, like the military and the government, get their employees from society and there's no telling how some people will act, even after things like psychological testing, polygraphs, interviews and background checks.

Serving since 1987.

JohnKachenmeister

Quote from: Stonewall on March 05, 2008, 02:44:19 PM
Gotcha, got your "after midnight" example mixed up.

Yep, that's wrong.  No doubt about it.  As Flying Pig said, law enforcement, like the military and the government, get their employees from society and there's no telling how some people will act, even after things like psychological testing, polygraphs, interviews and background checks.



Actually, Stonewall, your mileage may vary, but I think we actually got MORE nut-cases on the police department after they started psychological testing.  Psychology is not a precise science, and the tests are imperfect.  But once it is "Passed" one has documentation of sanity, and gut feelings, history of poor judgement, and interview performance are swept away because of the allure of this pseudo-scientific testing.
Another former CAP officer

Stonewall

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on March 05, 2008, 03:31:22 PM

Actually, Stonewall, your mileage may vary, but I think we actually got MORE nut-cases on the police department after they started psychological testing.  Psychology is not a precise science, and the tests are imperfect.  But once it is "Passed" one has documentation of sanity, and gut feelings, history of poor judgement, and interview performance are swept away because of the allure of this pseudo-scientific testing.

You're right.  When I worked for an alphabet agency in DC I often wondered how some folks passed the above tests and weren't later brought back in for their actions.  But once "cleared" unless something is so obvious it's an issue of security or safety, many things will go unnoticed.

Good point.
Serving since 1987.