Past Leadership

[SAR-EMT1]

As I read some threads here it really hit me that while some folks speak ill of General Pineda or the mythical black vans or of problems associated with each; I know almost nothing of the actual policies of the man or of past NHQ staffers and National Commanders.

What they have done that was good for us, what was bad for us, any programs that have been fostered or shot down during their tenure. etc...

Second, how much has CAP as an organization really changed compared to pre 9/11 or prior to the 2000 shake up - again, something I know zilch about.

Would it be possible for those who are either "in the know" or those who have just been around awhile to submit information on this for me?

Thanks. - Im just looking to 'fill in the blanks' in areas where I dont know about CAP.

[LtCol White]

By promoting himself, Gen Harwell earned us the maroon and now gray epaulets

[flyguy06]

As I read some threads here it really hit me that while some folks speak ill of General Pineda or the mythical black vans or of problems associated with each; I know almost nothing of the actual policies of the man or of past NHQ staffers and National Commanders.

What they have done that was good for us, what was bad for us, any programs that have been fostered or shot down during their tenure. etc...

Second, how much has CAP as an organization really changed compared to pre 9/11 or prior to the 2000 shake up - again, something I know zilch about.

Would it be possible for those who are either "in the know" or those who have just been around awhile to submit information on this for me?

Thanks. - Im just looking to 'fill in the blanks' in areas where I dont know about CAP.

I haave been a contiuous active member of CAP since 1984 and I can tell you that this organization has changed a lot.

CAP used to be very military focused and oriented which is what attracted me to the organization. They had a very good working relationship with the U.S. Air Force. the emphasis was on military aviation. Nowadays, the emphasis is on SAR and Law Enforcement operations. Thats what I have seen that has changed a lot.

[mikeylikey]

Granted the Corporation has allways been part of CAP.......but lately it seems that it has "taken over".

The biggest change in leadership was when the National Commander position changed from being an Air Force Officer to an "elected" CAP Officer.  I have seen the dates of the changes posted on here before, not sure where.

I would not neccessarily look towards the past for past leadership changes, but examine what we have now.  There is almost NO AF involvement with the day to day opperation of CAP NHQ.  That needs to be fixed.  The hugest thing was the loss of the CAP-USAF Commander as a voting member on the Board.  THAT WAS VERY BAD!

Looking at the past, I would like to know who it was that got CAP members barred from purchasing anything they wanted at AAFES.  Up until the 70's from what I read, members could purchase whatever they wanted.

[RiverAux]

the emphasis was on military aviation.

Huh?  What exactly do you mean by that? 

[FARRIER]

"...the emphasis was on military aviation." From an AE standpoint that was bad. It didn't truly prep cadets for the true world of aviation that was out there. The emphasis was too narrow. Had a Wing Dir of AE (and AF Academy grad) that tried to change that, she had the forsight, but was constantly given grief for it.

"Nowadays, the emphasis is on SAR and Law Enforcement operations." This is just my opinion, but isn't there more people with LE backgrounds in leadership positions now?

[flyguy06]

the emphasis was on military aviation.

Huh?  What exactly do you mean by that? 

Its hard to spell out. I guess what I mea nis that cadet activitioes like Air Education Command Familirazation course and Oshkosh and powered academies were the big activities to go on. Nowadays the big activities are Hawk mountain and anything having to do with ES.

I remember when wing cadet of the year were rewarded with orientation rides............in an F-15 given by the local National Guard unit. You dont see those types of relationships with the AF anymore. The Air Force had a much more integral part in CAP. How many of you remember the "Air Force Now" flims we used to get at CAP activities? I miss those.

CAP was just really fun for me back then. I am more into the military than I am into ES, so the CAP of todayisnt as much fun as it was back then (for me anyway) And as was mentioned above, the CAP-USAF was more involved. I dunno what happened to that relationship.

[flyguy06]

I dont remember when an Air Force guy was the National Commander. That was wayyy before my time. I thought we were talking about the recent past.

[ColonelJack]

A check with Wikipedia on the topic showed this:

"Original CAP title was Chairman of the CAP Board; Colonel George A. Stone, Ohio Wing Commander, became the first Chairman, but later died in an aircraft accident.

"Upon adoption of the CAP Constitution and Bylaws on 26 May 1948, the CAP Board was redesignated as the National Executive Board (NEB), but the designation was later changed to the National Executive Committee (NEC) on 26 April 1960.

"USAF approved the grade of Brigadier General, CAP, via order PANHQ 9, 15 March 1968.

"On 1 September 1975, the original CAP title of Chairman of the National Board was redesignated as National Commander, and the US Air Force-appointed National Commander became the Executive Director. On 8 March 1995 during a reorganization of CAP National Headquarters, the title of Executive Director was changed to Senior Air Force Advisor."

So the "AF guy as National Commander" existed until 1968.  And the title National Commander became used for a CAP officer in 1975.

Did that make sense?

Jack

[ELTHunter]

I remember when wing cadet of the year were rewarded with orientation rides............in an F-15 given by the local National Guard unit. You dont see those types of relationships with the AF anymore. The Air Force had a much more integral part in CAP. How many of you remember the "Air Force Now" flims we used to get at CAP activities? I miss those.

CAP was just really fun for me back then. I am more into the military than I am into ES, so the CAP of todayisnt as much fun as it was back then (for me anyway) And as was mentioned above, the CAP-USAF was more involved. I dunno what happened to that relationship.

We have a KC-135 Wing stationed here.  Per the CAP-USAF State Director, we can only have two O-flights per year.  I think his attitude is, if it doesn't benefit the Air Force, why should he ask them for something.  You talk to guy's at the Guard base and they would be glad to fly us more often.  They fly other groups a lot more than CAP.  Go figure.

[mikeylikey]

We have a KC-135 Wing stationed here.  Per the CAP-USAF State Director, we can only have two O-flights per year.  I think his attitude is, if it doesn't benefit the Air Force, why should he ask them for something.  You talk to guy's at the Guard base and they would be glad to fly us more often.  They fly other groups a lot more than CAP.  Go figure.

Your SD sucks!  Have your Wing King get in contact with the Region AF LO Office.  Stuff like that is a shame.  I bet he is there only for the money and GOV Perks.  He is ridding out the end of his career in style if you get my drift.

[flyguy06]

Ok, A KC-135 ride and a F-15 ride. two totally different animals

[PHall]

Looking at the past, I would like to know who it was that got CAP members barred from purchasing anything they wanted at AAFES.  Up until the 70's from what I read, members could purchase whatever they wanted.

Nope, never was like that. I've been a member since December 1969 and we have never been allowed to get whatever we wanted from AAFES.

[mikeylikey]

Looking at the past, I would like to know who it was that got CAP members barred from purchasing anything they wanted at AAFES.  Up until the 70's from what I read, members could purchase whatever they wanted.

Nope, never was like that. I've been a member since December 1969 and we have never been allowed to get whatever we wanted from AAFES.

When I get to wing I will scan the Army-Air Force reg and post.  I said up until the 70's.  I am sorry, I should have said "IT STOPED BEFORE the 1970's, NOT SURE OF THE EXACT DATE".  Is that better?

[lordmonar]

Ok, A KC-135 ride and a F-15 ride. two totally different animals

That is true....but on the same note....you don't see a lot of O-rides for AD folks anymore either.

The relationship is still there....you just have to work it.

[PHall]

Looking at the past, I would like to know who it was that got CAP members barred from purchasing anything they wanted at AAFES.  Up until the 70's from what I read, members could purchase whatever they wanted.

Nope, never was like that. I've been a member since December 1969 and we have never been allowed to get whatever we wanted from AAFES.

When I get to wing I will scan the Army-Air Force reg and post.  I said up until the 70's.  I am sorry, I should have said "IT STOPED BEFORE the 1970's, NOT SURE OF THE EXACT DATE".  Is that better?

Access to base exchanges is a privilege that the military has guarded very closely for a long, long time.

Back then, military clothing sales stores were not located inside the exchange and were not run by AAFES.
When we came on base for a uniform run we would go to the clothing sales store to get our uniform items. We didn't even think about going to the exchange because there was nothing there that we were authorized to buy other then something from the snack bar, and that was about it.

[ELTHunter]

Ok, A KC-135 ride and a F-15 ride. two totally different animals

True, an F 16 would be a lot better than a 135, but a fifteen year old cadet will be happy to get on any military plane.  My point was that our relationship with the rest of the Air Force family isn't helping CAP much.  You would think that they would want to take more advantage of the relationship to encourage cadets to transition to the active, guard or reserves.

On the senior, er Officer, side, you would think they would want to use the relationship to strengthen public opinion for funding support and such.

[BillB]

During the 1950's and early 1960's CAP was authorized to buy almost anything at a BX except taxable items with few restrictions.. And even at that, if in Government quarters for a meeting, encampment etc, two cartons of cigarettes could be purchsed by being in uniform, showing the BOQ room key and a set of orders. Another restriction was jewelry and electronics over $50. With the approval of the Base Commander, a temporary pass for the Commissary could be issued for the purchase of coffee and disposable items. This changed in the late 1960's or early 70's and more restrictions were placed on the use of the BX and the Commissary was off limits to CAP (unless you had a cadet or senior with a dependents card)

[ELTHunter]

Use of the BX is one thing that has always chaffed me a little bit.  I know AAFES merchandise is subsidized by the DOD, but you would think they could allow CAP folks to purchase items as a little side benefit for being an active CAP member.  After all, doesn't CAP stand for "come and pay".  It would seem a small token of appreciation for what we do.

[JC004]

Use of the BX is one thing that has always chaffed me a little bit.  I know AAFES merchandise is subsidized by the DOD, but you would think they could allow CAP folks to purchase items as a little side benefit for being an active CAP member.  After all, doesn't CAP stand for "come and pay".  It would seem a small token of appreciation for what we do.

Technically, CAP can't purchase gear-type items like alcohol pens, protractors, LBE, flashlights, etc.  (I guess that you can buy a CamelBak, since it IS a uniform item)  At the very least, seeing as we use this stuff for AIR FORCE-assigned missions, we should be able to buy gear stuff. 

Also, when I went to buy shoes at MCCS (Fort Indiantown Gap), they told me that I couldn't buy DSCP shoes.  Huh?  I've been buying whatever is available in my size, DSCP or commercial, for years, but I've bought a heck of a lot of DSCP items at a lot of facilities throughout the country.  I'd never heard this before, nor have I seen it in an AR or anything.  Anybody know the deal with this??

[flyguy06]

Ok, A KC-135 ride and a F-15 ride. two totally different animals

True, an F 16 would be a lot better than a 135, but a fifteen year old cadet will be happy to get on any military plane.  My point was that our relationship with the rest of the Air Force family isn't helping CAP much.  You would think that they would want to take more advantage of the relationship to encourage cadets to transition to the active, guard or reserves.

On the senior, er Officer, side, you would think they would want to use the relationship to strengthen public opinion for funding support and such.

I agree. Our relationship used to be stronger with the Air Force. Thats the reason Ijoined CAP at the age of 15. I don tknow what happened,but we need to go back to it.

[RAZOR]

AAFES purchases should be only used for current members of the military and it's retirees.

[ELTHunter]

AAFES purchases should be only used for current members of the military and it's retirees.

CAP members can buy uniform items through AAFES, it's in the regs.

[lordmonar]

Ok, A KC-135 ride and a F-15 ride. two totally different animals

True, an F 16 would be a lot better than a 135, but a fifteen year old cadet will be happy to get on any military plane.  My point was that our relationship with the rest of the Air Force family isn't helping CAP much.  You would think that they would want to take more advantage of the relationship to encourage cadets to transition to the active, guard or reserves.

On the senior, er Officer, side, you would think they would want to use the relationship to strengthen public opinion for funding support and such.

You forget that the AD squadron is so busy these days that we simply do not have the time to do that sort of thing any more.

In 93 George Sr. Axed 100K from the USAF....but did not cut any of our missions.  And again we are loosing another 40K and I do not see any reduction in our missions.

In fact we are standing up new squadrons all the time.

So....Squadron X at Base Y simply does not have the time to figure out what CAP can do form them or what they can do to help with recruiting.

That does not mean there is nothing there....just that the AD squadron does not have the extra personnel and time to do the leg work.  But there is no reason why you (CAP) can't do a little research, cultivate some contacts and get some O-rides, tours, support and maybe even a mission or two.

[SarDragon]

The current CAPR 147-1, dated 10 Feb '86, is very explicit on what CAP members can purchase, and the specific circumstances involved.

IIRC, the "buy almost anything" rules went away around 1965 or so, because we had some problems at McGuire in late '66 when the exchange folks were trying to overly restrict purchases because they were misreading the then new reg.

[flyguy06]

Ok, A KC-135 ride and a F-15 ride. two totally different animals

True, an F 16 would be a lot better than a 135, but a fifteen year old cadet will be happy to get on any military plane.  My point was that our relationship with the rest of the Air Force family isn't helping CAP much.  You would think that they would want to take more advantage of the relationship to encourage cadets to transition to the active, guard or reserves.

On the senior, er Officer, side, you would think they would want to use the relationship to strengthen public opinion for funding support and such.

You forget that the AD squadron is so busy these days that we simply do not have the time to do that sort of thing any more.

In 93 George Sr. Axed 100K from the USAF....but did not cut any of our missions.  And again we are loosing another 40K and I do not see any reduction in our missions.

In fact we are standing up new squadrons all the time.

So....Squadron X at Base Y simply does not have the time to figure out what CAP can do form them or what they can do to help with recruiting.

That does not mean there is nothing there....just that the AD squadron does not have the extra personnel and time to do the leg work.  But there is no reason why you (CAP) can't do a little research, cultivate some contacts and get some O-rides, tours, support and maybe even a mission or two.

I was speeaking of reserve or National Guard units. We used to give one cadet a year a ride in an F-15

Tags - MIKE

[mikeylikey]

Use of the BX is one thing that has always chaffed me a little bit.  I know AAFES merchandise is subsidized by the DOD, but you would think they could allow CAP folks to purchase items as a little side benefit for being an active CAP member.  After all, doesn't CAP stand for "come and pay".  It would seem a small token of appreciation for what we do.

Technically, CAP can't purchase gear-type items like alcohol pens, protractors, LBE, flashlights, etc.  (I guess that you can buy a CamelBak, since it IS a uniform item)  At the very least, seeing as we use this stuff for AIR FORCE-assigned missions, we should be able to buy gear stuff. 

Also, when I went to buy shoes at MCCS (Fort Indiantown Gap), they told me that I couldn't buy DSCP shoes.  Huh?  I've been buying whatever is available in my size, DSCP or commercial, for years, but I've bought a heck of a lot of DSCP items at a lot of facilities throughout the country.  I'd never heard this before, nor have I seen it in an AR or anything.  Anybody know the deal with this??

Indiantown Gap.....is a useless dirt hole.  The MCSS is run by a contractor and has had many cutomer service issues in the past.  The DOD threatned to shut them down about 5 years ago, but they just paid some more fees and they were back in business.

I think the AF should type up a letter that states exactly what uniform itmes are to be purchsed by CAP members at any MCSS. 

[JC004]

The current CAPR 147-1, dated 10 Feb '86, is very explicit on what CAP members can purchase, and the specific circumstances involved.

IIRC, the "buy almost anything" rules went away around 1965 or so, because we had some problems at McGuire in late '66 when the exchange folks were trying to overly restrict purchases because they were misreading the then new reg.

I'm trying to find all the Army stuff, since AAFES isn't subject to CAP regulations.  I'm not finding it as written in the CAP reg.  Of course...the Army has quite a few regulations...

[mikeylikey]

The current CAPR 147-1, dated 10 Feb '86, is very explicit on what CAP members can purchase, and the specific circumstances involved.

IIRC, the "buy almost anything" rules went away around 1965 or so, because we had some problems at McGuire in late '66 when the exchange folks were trying to overly restrict purchases because they were misreading the then new reg.

I'm trying to find all the Army stuff, since AAFES isn't subject to CAP regulations.  I'm not finding it as written in the CAP reg.  Of course...the Army has quite a few regulations...

http://www.army.mil/usapa/epubs/pdf/r60_10.pdf

http://www.army.mil/usapa/epubs/pdf/r60_20.pdf  THIS ONE  PAGE 5 addresses CAP MEMBERS

[JC004]

The current CAPR 147-1, dated 10 Feb '86, is very explicit on what CAP members can purchase, and the specific circumstances involved.

IIRC, the "buy almost anything" rules went away around 1965 or so, because we had some problems at McGuire in late '66 when the exchange folks were trying to overly restrict purchases because they were misreading the then new reg.

I'm trying to find all the Army stuff, since AAFES isn't subject to CAP regulations.  I'm not finding it as written in the CAP reg.  Of course...the Army has quite a few regulations...

http://www.army.mil/usapa/epubs/pdf/r60_10.pdf

http://www.army.mil/usapa/epubs/pdf/r60_20.pdf  THIS ONE  PAGE 5 addresses CAP MEMBERS

Not the one they were on about at MCSS, but I'll look at these.  sheesh...

[bosshawk]

Did I miss something in this thread?  The title is about past leadership and now we are charging ahead at glacial speed on one more uniform chase.

Monitor, where are you when we need you?

[JC004]

Did I miss something in this thread?  The title is about past leadership and now we are charging ahead at glacial speed on one more uniform chase.

Monitor, where are you when we need you?

But this one is different.  It's about AAFES privileges, not the TPU.   

[flyguy06]

I thought this thread was about Leadership. How did it turn into a discussion about MCSS? I see where the priority is on here

[MIKE]

Just your typical CAP Talk topic drift... 

[mikeylikey]

Just your typical CAP Talk topic drift... 

Back on topic..............The past leadership was awesome, current leadership is sucky!  Hope this gets the thread going again!

[JC004]

I thought this thread was about Leadership. How did it turn into a discussion about MCSS? I see where the priority is on here

Apparently the AAFES separation is symbolic of CAP's overall move away from USAF.  Which has to do with part two of the original post.  All roads on CAPTalk lead to a uniform discussion and rants about CAP moving away from the Air Force.  But these are the two point of focus established for us by our National Board.  And THAT is about leadership.  This is all a reflection of bigger stuff here.

[NEBoom]

Ok, A KC-135 ride and a F-15 ride. two totally different animals

True, an F 16 would be a lot better than a 135, but a fifteen year old cadet will be happy to get on any military plane.  My point was that our relationship with the rest of the Air Force family isn't helping CAP much.  You would think that they would want to take more advantage of the relationship to encourage cadets to transition to the active, guard or reserves.

On the senior, er Officer, side, you would think they would want to use the relationship to strengthen public opinion for funding support and such.

You forget that the AD squadron is so busy these days that we simply do not have the time to do that sort of thing any more.

In 93 George Sr. Axed 100K from the USAF....but did not cut any of our missions.  And again we are loosing another 40K and I do not see any reduction in our missions.

In fact we are standing up new squadrons all the time.

So....Squadron X at Base Y simply does not have the time to figure out what CAP can do form them or what they can do to help with recruiting.

That does not mean there is nothing there....just that the AD squadron does not have the extra personnel and time to do the leg work.  But there is no reason why you (CAP) can't do a little research, cultivate some contacts and get some O-rides, tours, support and maybe even a mission or two.

I was speeaking of reserve or National Guard units. We used to give one cadet a year a ride in an F-15

Tags - MIKE

I think the ANG units are running into the same problem.  I recently saw a friend from my old ANG unit.  He said that since 9/11 and with the "Total Force Concept" they've been treated recently like an Air Force Detachment, as opposed to a separate Guard unit like in the old days.  So probably the same issues the AD has with supporting CAP are starting to affect the Guard units.

YMMV.

[SAR-EMT1]

Use of the BX is one thing that has always chaffed me a little bit.  I know AAFES merchandise is subsidized by the DOD, but you would think they could allow CAP folks to purchase items as a little side benefit for being an active CAP member.  After all, doesn't CAP stand for "come and pay".  It would seem a small token of appreciation for what we do.

CGAux members can get alot of things at the CG exchanges.
Then again the CG values its Aux more.

Has our NHQ staff ever done anything about this or is this just another black pit gone forever?

Here is another question: why did we make the CC/CAP-USAF a NON-voting member of the board?

[BillB]

The NEC made the CC CAP-USAF a non voting member for one reason. The CC CAP-USAF requested it since there would be a conflict on voting for/against something, then taking the action to USAF or BoG.

[ELTHunter]

My knowledge of past CAP leaders only goes back to the late Bobick command.  From the stories I've read here about other past CAP leaders, I can't see that any in recent history were great leaders.  Some seemed to be mainly caretakers.  Have there been any true "Leaders" since CAP began electing CAP members as National CC's?

[flyguy06]

Gen Anderson, Gen Cass, Gen Harwell in my opinion

[ELTHunter]

What made them "good" leaders?  This is truly a inquisitive question, and not a challenging one.  Earlier in this thread Gen. Harwell was accused of precipitating the infamous maroon epaulets.  I have heard varying stories about General Cass, from him being  a great guy, to being a little off his rocker.  Everything I have heard about both men, however, has been anecdotal.

[JC004]

...
Earlier in this thread Gen. Harwell was accused of precipitating the infamous maroon epaulets.
...

Well, that is lasting change, isn't it?  It still impacts us to this day (gray).  Sustainable change is a hallmark of quality leadership.   

[afgeo4]

...
Earlier in this thread Gen. Harwell was accused of precipitating the infamous maroon epaulets.
...

Well, that is lasting change, isn't it?  It still impacts us to this day (gray).  Sustainable change is a hallmark of quality leadership.   

Oh so Gen McPeak was a quality leader?

[mikeylikey]

...
Earlier in this thread Gen. Harwell was accused of precipitating the infamous maroon epaulets.
...

Well, that is lasting change, isn't it?  It still impacts us to this day (gray).  Sustainable change is a hallmark of quality leadership.   

Oh so Gen McPeak was a quality leader?

He was a quality something.  Perhaps quality visionary, quality tailor or quality fabric designer.

[JC004]

...
Earlier in this thread Gen. Harwell was accused of precipitating the infamous maroon epaulets.
...

Well, that is lasting change, isn't it?  It still impacts us to this day (gray).  Sustainable change is a hallmark of quality leadership.   

Oh so Gen McPeak was a quality leader?

By my stretched definition...Uh hu.

[RAZOR]

CAP has "VANGUARD", please use it.

[afgeo4]

CAP has "VANGUARD", please use it.

You mean VANGUARD has CAP, don't you? And you mean by the testicles, right?

Our members pay to work for the DoD. We even pay for the uniforms (which are mandatory to do the work). The least they could do is allow us to buy those uniforms at the lowest price possible. Obviously that isn't the issue since most of our high grade brass are quite well off financially. In fact, I'm not sure one could get that high in grade and position if one isn't.

[mikeylikey]

CAP has "VANGUARD", please use it.

You mean VANGUARD has CAP, don't you? And you mean by the testicles, right?

Our members pay to work for the DoD. We even pay for the uniforms (which are mandatory to do the work). The least they could do is allow us to buy those uniforms at the lowest price possible. Obviously that isn't the issue since most of our high grade brass are quite well off financially. In fact, I'm not sure one could get that high in grade and position if one isn't.

I estimate $55.00 as the minimum cost of a uniform.  Go to WALMART.....get grey trousers, pickup black shoes, order your cap polo and your done!

[afgeo4]

Well that's fine and dandy if you don't want to work with cadets or do SAR/HLS. Oh wait, what else is there...? AE! Yes, it's the perfect uniform for Aerospace Education!

As for the rest of us, the uniforms are VERY expensive. Especially for those of us who aren't well off financially. Should volunteer service to our country be limited to those with large bank accounts?

[JC004]

Well that's fine and dandy if you don't want to work with cadets or do SAR/HLS. Oh wait, what else is there...? AE! Yes, it's the perfect uniform for Aerospace Education!

As for the rest of us, the uniforms are VERY expensive. Especially for those of us who aren't well off financially. Should volunteer service to our country be limited to those with large bank accounts?

Just one reason why I've been saying that our leadership needs to simplify things (uniforms for one) and help reduce the burden on the member however possible. 

[SAR-EMT1]

1) So what did Gen. Anderson bring to the table during his tenure?
2) Who were some 'good' USAF National Commanders?

[flyguy06]

The time when actual USAF officers were Commanders were wayyyyy back in the day. Idoubt ther earemany people still in CAP that remember that era. I oined CAP in 1984 soit had too be at leats 30 years prior to that.
I liked Gen Anderson 1 because he was a former cadet and Spatzz cadet at that so he understands the cadet programand was a big cheerleader for it. And secondly because he was the national Commander while simoultaniously he was also an active duty Air Force Lt Col. stationed at Maxwell, so he was able to be that connecting force between CAP and the Air Force. he didnt represent CAP in his Air Force assignemt so there was still that seperation but he knew the right people to talak to to get what the organization needed.

[jimmydeanno]

Ok, A KC-135 ride and a F-15 ride. two totally different animals

That is true....but on the same note....you don't see a lot of O-rides for AD folks anymore either.

The relationship is still there....you just have to work it.

I think the heavies are better anyway, more bang for the buck...

All the squadron's I have been in have never had an issue arranging military O' Flights.  My last squadron got them in chinooks at Ft. Eustis in VA, the one before that was KC-135s a few times a year...you just have to be willing to invest the time to set it up. 

Granted, to get the first one took about 5 months to clear the channels, but once they were clear, traffic flowed smoothly...

[ZigZag911]

The time when actual USAF officers were Commanders were wayyyyy back in the day. Idoubt ther earemany people still in CAP that remember that era. I oined CAP in 1984 soit had too be at leats 30 years prior to that.

Actually the changeover (from Nat'l Board Chairman to Nat'l CC) occurred 1 Sept 1975, in the last year of of Brig Gen Thomas Patterson's term....he transitioned from board chair to national CC, first CAP volunteer to serve in that position.

At the time I was a 2 Lt on a group staff (cadet programs officer), after topping out with an Earhart in 1973....so I very clearly recall that 'prehistoric' age!

[flyguy06]

The time when actual USAF officers were Commanders were wayyyyy back in the day. Idoubt ther earemany people still in CAP that remember that era. I oined CAP in 1984 soit had too be at leats 30 years prior to that.

Actually the changeover (from Nat'l Board Chairman to Nat'l CC) occurred 1 Sept 1975, in the last year of of Brig Gen Thomas Patterson's term....he transitioned from board chair to national CC, first CAP volunteer to serve in that position.

At the time I was a 2 Lt on a group staff (cadet programs officer), after topping out with an Earhart in 1973....so I very clearly recall that 'prehistoric' age!

I was six years old in 1975

[ZigZag911]

I was six years old in 1975

I presume you weren't a cadet at that age?