The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available

Started by MisterCD, June 26, 2014, 05:25:56 PM

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PHall

Quote from: Eclipse on July 02, 2014, 04:42:34 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on July 02, 2014, 04:18:22 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on July 02, 2014, 12:13:46 AM
Great, we tried it that way.

It, like many other things which reach for affectation and fail, has no place in CAP, time for it to go away.
Justify that statement?

"has no place" is a pretty strong statement.

"hazing has no place in CAP"....good
"Stealing has no place in CAP"....good
"Following USAF traditions has no place in CAP".....Not so much.

I mean if this tradition has no place in CAP....how about the tradition that we salute officers?  Or give place of precidence?

Okay....I get it.   Those who can't wear USAF uniforms now have now place to wear their bling.   

Yep...that's a problem.   One that should be fixed.

But......breaking with USAF traditions is not IMHO how you go about doing that.
Find another way.

This "tradition" literally sets up a situation whereby 1/2 the adult members would never wear their decorations.

So even if there was some "Good Reason®" to do it in the USAF, whatever that is doesn't apply in CAP,
since it's the only way 1/2 the adult membership could ever wear their decs. 

Here again is a place CAP wants to have it both ways.  "What's the big deal?"  "Trying to show off?"  Etc., etc.
when you make an issue of it while facing someone with a chest full or jelly beans telling others they shouldn't
be so excited about ribbons.  Time and again we hear how dec and plumage are the only way CAP can publicly
acknowledge accomplishments, and then the "tradition" is "don't bother".

Seriously?

Why does Capt Twiceayear get to stand in front of his peers and exhibit his 2-line rack of bare minimums and
Col WingCC, who did 3 tours in WWDS gets grief for wearing his?

I would hazard, and I believe it's been said here, that this started because USAF NCOs felt that the officers were showing off
their large racks compared to many in the enlisted ranks.

Again, assuming that is true.  It doesn't apply, even a little, to CAP.


Enlisted pukes usually have more ribbons then the Officers do. Try again.

SARDOC

Quote from: Chappie on June 30, 2014, 09:11:58 PM
2) make sure that you meet the grooming and the h/w standards set forth in the CAPM 39-1.  It doesn't matter what your squadron allows, they will be enforced at the CCRSC because:
    a.  it is the official policy of the CAP
    b.  we are conducting our event at an active USAF base and we do not want to bring disgrace or dishonor on the uniform which we have 
         the privilege to wear.


I don't disagree with Chappie.  I just wanted to highlight a portion of his comment.

Some in this thread have used the term "Second Class Citizen".  Just the thought that as an organization, some of us have a "privilege to wear", while others don't because they may "Bring Disgrace or Dishonor".

It's really a shame that we can't have one uniform that treats our members with the same level of respect.  I'm a service connected Disabled Vet and as a result am not privileged enough to wear the USAF Style uniform because I may bring disgrace or dishonor on an organization that I love to volunteer for.  I don't do this for the bells and whistles...look at me in uniform.  I'm dedicated to the mission, but let's not pretend that there is no "Second Class" member when it comes to uniforms.

SARDOC

Quote from: Eclipse on July 01, 2014, 06:30:29 PM
^ Not without conflicting with verbiage elsewhere which does not allow military medals
on corporate uniforms.

I wear my highest dec, though yes, it could be any of the CAP mini medals.

I should just wear the "Membership" medal.  :)

SARDOC

Quote from: Chappie on July 01, 2014, 07:54:05 PM
From my personal experience at CCRSC, RSC has been the service jacket is not worn during the class sessions but at the banquet -- those not wearing the USAF-Style uniform or Mess dress if the banquet is in the evening -- and NSC (the banquet dress code is mess dress or blazer combo / ladies wear appropriate dresses).

I knew at my RSC when we did the Dining In, That the prescribed uniform was Mess Dress, USAF Service Jacket or a Civilian Jacket and Tie.  The Corporate uniform of any variety was frowned upon by the Protocol Officer/College Staff.

SARDOC

Quote from: MSG Mac on July 02, 2014, 01:00:39 AM
Amazing that the USAF has a tradition of not wearing ribbons on their shirts, but also has one that says if you have wings. You can wear flight suits one day a week. Even if you're not currently on flight  status.

Hey, if you could get away with wearing Pajamas at work...wouldn't you.  I loved my old command, if you were in a flight status...you could wear the flight suit everyday...you never know when the flight schedule will unexpectedly change.

Salty

The only tradition I remember from my USAF days is "all, some, or none."  It was left up to individuals on how they wanted to display their fruit salad on the blues shirt.

SARDOC, you're not the only person who wore a flight suit all the time because of "unexpected schedule changes."  When I was deployed to Southwest Asia all the aeromedical technicians wore desert flight suits due to "rapid response" capabilities.  None of us were on flight status and nobody ever said a word.  That only happened overseas though.  Back here in the States we wore our BDUs, hospital whites, or blues.
CAP Cadet 1989-1994
CAP Senior Member 1994-1995, 2011-current
USAF Aeromedical Technician 1994-1998

Chappie

#366
Quote from: SARDOC on July 02, 2014, 05:17:01 AM
Quote from: Chappie on June 30, 2014, 09:11:58 PM
2) make sure that you meet the grooming and the h/w standards set forth in the CAPM 39-1.  It doesn't matter what your squadron allows, they will be enforced at the CCRSC because:
    a.  it is the official policy of the CAP
    b.  we are conducting our event at an active USAF base and we do not want to bring disgrace or dishonor on the uniform which we have 
         the privilege to wear.


I don't disagree with Chappie.  I just wanted to highlight a portion of his comment.

Some in this thread have used the term "Second Class Citizen".  Just the thought that as an organization, some of us have a "privilege to wear", while others don't because they may "Bring Disgrace or Dishonor".

It's really a shame that we can't have one uniform that treats our members with the same level of respect.  I'm a service connected Disabled Vet and as a result am not privileged enough to wear the USAF Style uniform because I may bring disgrace or dishonor on an organization that I love to volunteer for.  I don't do this for the bells and whistles...look at me in uniform.  I'm dedicated to the mission, but let's not pretend that there is no "Second Class" member when it comes to uniforms.

Sardoc...just a point of clarification.   The wording applied to all uniforms that were to be worn at the event, not just USAF-Style.   Every participant was lined up for the inspection.  Even those wearing G/W have uniform infractions (i.e. wrong placement of insginias/badges; wearing the wrong type of belt (we have seen BDU or service dress blue belts worn).  Since our event is/was on an USAF base, being members of the Civil Air Patrol-USAF Auxiliary it is imperative that we look professional and carry ourselves as such.  We represent CAP on that base.  Many USAF personnel don't know about CAP and for that short time we are there, our members are the only exposure they may have to our organization.   We also encourage pride and correct wear in whatever uniform is being worn....because it is a privilege to wear a CAP uniform.  Remember membership in CAP is a privilege, not a right.
Disclaimer:  Not to be confused with the other user that goes by "Chappy"   :)

Alaric

Quote from: Chappie on July 02, 2014, 04:17:26 PM
Quote from: SARDOC on July 02, 2014, 05:17:01 AM
Quote from: Chappie on June 30, 2014, 09:11:58 PM
2) make sure that you meet the grooming and the h/w standards set forth in the CAPM 39-1.  It doesn't matter what your squadron allows, they will be enforced at the CCRSC because:
    a.  it is the official policy of the CAP
    b.  we are conducting our event at an active USAF base and we do not want to bring disgrace or dishonor on the uniform which we have 
         the privilege to wear.


I don't disagree with Chappie.  I just wanted to highlight a portion of his comment.

Some in this thread have used the term "Second Class Citizen".  Just the thought that as an organization, some of us have a "privilege to wear", while others don't because they may "Bring Disgrace or Dishonor".

It's really a shame that we can't have one uniform that treats our members with the same level of respect.  I'm a service connected Disabled Vet and as a result am not privileged enough to wear the USAF Style uniform because I may bring disgrace or dishonor on an organization that I love to volunteer for.  I don't do this for the bells and whistles...look at me in uniform.  I'm dedicated to the mission, but let's not pretend that there is no "Second Class" member when it comes to uniforms.

Sardoc...just a point of clarification.   The wording applied to all uniforms that were to be worn at the event, not just USAF-Style.   Every participant was lined up for the inspection.  Even those wearing G/W have uniform infractions (i.e. wrong placement of insginias/badges; wearing the wrong type of belt (we have seen BDU or service dress blue belts worn).   We encourage pride and correct wear in whatever uniform is being worn....because it is a privilege to wear a CAP uniform.  Remember membership in CAP is a privilege, not a right.

Seems to me that's a little too much focus on the sizzle and not enough on the steak, but hey that's just me.

Eclipse

Quote from: Alaric on July 02, 2014, 04:26:02 PMSeems to me that's a little too much focus on the sizzle and not enough on the steak, but hey that's just me.

Sadly, this kind of thing is necessary, though one would think by the time you get to an RSC or NSC
you would know how to wear your uniform.  Unfortunately this is not the case.

The list of what I've seen members wearing a wing and region activities and PD sessions is somewhat shocking
when you consider their grades and experience.

"That Others May Zoom"

Chappie

Quote from: Eclipse on July 02, 2014, 04:30:40 PM
Quote from: Alaric on July 02, 2014, 04:26:02 PMSeems to me that's a little too much focus on the sizzle and not enough on the steak, but hey that's just me.

Sadly, this kind of thing is necessary, though one would think by the time you get to an RSC or NSC
you would know how to wear your uniform.  Unfortunately this is not the case.

The list of what I've seen members wearing a wing and region activities and PD sessions is somewhat shocking
when you consider their grades and experience.

Eclipse...I wholeheartedly concur.  Which gets us back to what I was initially responding to.   It is not up to NHQ to enforce the CAPM 39-1, it is up to the squadron commander, activity director...even more experienced members (cadets and seniors alike) to point out the infractions and assist the member to make the needed corrections.   No one is above having something out of line or off.  I have had items pointed out to me from time to time...did I find it offensive???  No...it was helpful. 
Disclaimer:  Not to be confused with the other user that goes by "Chappy"   :)

Alaric

Quote from: Eclipse on July 02, 2014, 04:30:40 PM
Quote from: Alaric on July 02, 2014, 04:26:02 PMSeems to me that's a little too much focus on the sizzle and not enough on the steak, but hey that's just me.

Sadly, this kind of thing is necessary, though one would think by the time you get to an RSC or NSC
you would know how to wear your uniform.  Unfortunately this is not the case.

The list of what I've seen members wearing a wing and region activities and PD sessions is somewhat shocking
when you consider their grades and experience.

Actually I'm talking about the organizational obsession with uniforms, ribbons, etc.  When I volunteer with the Red Cross my Disaster Action Team doesn't get in uniform.  We put on our clothes, wear our identification and get the JOB done.  When we go to training, we wear whatever clothes we wear, wear out identification and get the JOB done.  CAP seems far more interested in the sizzle (appearance) then the steak (doing the JOB). If we devoted a tenth of the commitment to our three fold mission, as we do to what people are wearing, can wear, should wear, we wouldn't have half the issues we do today.

Storm Chaser

Quote from: Eclipse on July 01, 2014, 10:14:57 PM
Quote from: arajca on July 01, 2014, 09:55:43 PM
Chappie,
   you're making the AF tradition that officers do not wear ribbons on thier shirt into a CAP tradition, ignoring that many of us have no other option for wearing ribbons. While you may have been talking about a couple specific activities, your claims about the culture cover a lot more than just a couple of activities.

+1 - That "tradition" has no place in CAP.

According to who? You? If Air Force traditions have no place in CAP, perhaps we shouldn't be wearing an Air Force uniform at all. Perhaps we shouldn't have grades or badges or awards either. After all, they're not really needed to perform CAP missions, with the exception of maybe Cadet Programs. And we can always follow the JROTC model and have reservists or retired military lead that program. When did CAP become all about the "bling"?

This AF tradition is just that, a tradition. Even in the AF, if officers want to wear their ribbons on the service uniform, they can. It's just not very common. But unless a particular activity or event requires that members not wear their ribbons, they're welcome to do so anytime, just like in CAP. Can we just stop making everything into a controversy?

Salty

Perhaps the answer is removing everything from the Senior Member program but an ID card, flying qualifications and ES qualifications.  That's the barebones of what CAP needs in order to complete the "primary" mission.

CAP Cadet 1989-1994
CAP Senior Member 1994-1995, 2011-current
USAF Aeromedical Technician 1994-1998

Shuman 14

Quote from: Eclipse on June 29, 2014, 02:26:27 AM
Quote from: JoeTomasone on June 29, 2014, 01:39:09 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on June 29, 2014, 12:09:47 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on June 28, 2014, 10:30:19 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on June 28, 2014, 10:28:12 PM

Not for cadets, only for seniors.

A commander may only require the MBU, anything else has to be issued to mandate it if the member doesn't want to spend the money.

(Assuming that hasn't changed in 39-1).

Agree a CC can set a UOD and compel the senior members to comply.

So.....cadets can go to encampment with just blues?   >:D 8) >:D

BY reg, yes.

That doublethink has existed since forever.



Nope.  An activity commander can set the UOD to something besides the MBU as long as participation is optional, and going to Encampment is optional.   You can't force a cadet to buy BDUs to attend a Squadron meeting, however.

Is it?  You could stretch the point to a cadet C/CMSgt who is being told "promote or be terminated" after a year with no progression.  At that point encampment is decidedly >not< optional.

It's an unwinnable argument in either way since the regs are clear but the practice runs counter to them and no one cares to fix it.

The reg make no allowance for the concept of "optional" vs. "non-optional" activities, we've made that logical assertion in these discussions, but that doesn't mean it would stand a complaint filed by a mom who actually reads the reg and can't afford BDUs. It simply and clearly says the only uniform a cadet can be compelled to wear is the MBU, unless the other uniform(s) or items are issued by CAP.

Frankly I'm glad it never came up while I was an encampment commander, but it was discussed every year.

So why don't CAP squadrons create a BDU closet in which you keep various sizes of BDU's and have the cadets sign them out when they need them and return them cleaned after the activity is over.

I gotta figure as a child ages he/she out grows his current set of BDUs and can donate the old ones to closet and as senior members "expand" over time the same thing. Also with donations from the USAF getting rid of existing stocks and individual Servicemembers  get rid of their old BDUs those closets should almost be fully functional supply rooms.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

Eclipse

Quote from: Alaric on July 02, 2014, 04:55:05 PM
Actually I'm talking about the organizational obsession with uniforms, ribbons, etc.  When I volunteer with the Red Cross my Disaster Action Team doesn't get in uniform.  We put on our clothes, wear our identification and get the JOB done.  When we go to training, we wear whatever clothes we wear, wear out identification and get the JOB done.  CAP seems far more interested in the sizzle (appearance) then the steak (doing the JOB). If we devoted a tenth of the commitment to our three fold mission, as we do to what people are wearing, can wear, should wear, we wouldn't have half the issues we do today.

OK, come on.

The ARC isn't a paramilitary auxiliary organization, nor does it train youth to a paramilitary standard, serve as an introduction
to military life for its youth members, nor depend on the military for both missions and resources.

I whine as much as anyone, but the organizations are not really comparable, any more then the CAP and BSA.

The uniforms are the problem, per se, it's the schizophrenic nature of how they are used and allowed (which in turn
is due in part to the schizophrenic nature of CAP as a whole).

"That Others May Zoom"

Shuman 14

QuoteIn fact, this authority has already stood the supplement test in CAWG, where, at least for a time, Nomex was required
to fly - a significant cost barrier for anyone.

So a very rich Wing Commander could dictate any uniform he wants via supplement... he just has to buy everyone that supplemental uniform.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

Storm Chaser

Quote from: MSG Mac on July 02, 2014, 01:00:39 AM
Amazing that the USAF has a tradition of not wearing ribbons on their shirts, but also has one that says if you have wings. You can wear flight suits one day a week. Even if you're not currently on flight  status.

If you're an Air Force rated officer or enlisted career aviator, you can wear the flight suit any time a utility uniform (i.e. ABU) is appropriate as long as you're in an appropriate aeronautical billet, whether you're in active flying status or not.

Quote from: CAPM 39-1, Para. 8.1.1.1The USAF-style FDU and Corporate FDU (CFDU) are authorized functional clothing for wear by individuals who perform aviation particular duties. Flight duty includes preparation, preflight, in-flight, post-flight, and other flight related duties associated with aircraft operations. The FDU and CFDU are authorized for wear by personnel who have or previously had a CAP aeronautical rating as defined by CAPR 35-6, Aeronautical Ratings, Emergency Services Patch and Badges, and Ground Team Badges, and/or have a current aircrew mission qualification (mission pilot, transport pilot, observer, scanner, aerial photographer, etc.). Personnel who do not have a current aircrew mission qualification or a current or prior aeronautical rating may be authorized wear of the FDU and CFDU on days when actual flying is planned or anticipated. Wing commanders will determine when FDU and CFDU wear is appropriate.

If I'm reading this correctly, it seems that flight suits are not restricted to actual flying as long as you're a qualified aircrew member, perform flying related duties and the commander has approve its use.

Eclipse

Quote from: shuman14 on July 02, 2014, 05:15:35 PM
QuoteIn fact, this authority has already stood the supplement test in CAWG, where, at least for a time, Nomex was required
to fly - a significant cost barrier for anyone.

So a very rich Wing Commander could dictate any uniform he wants via supplement... he just has to buy everyone that supplemental uniform.

No, he would only have to buy the uniform for cadets.  Seniors are responsible for equipping themselves as directed.

"That Others May Zoom"

Eclipse

Quote from: shuman14 on July 02, 2014, 05:10:00 PM
So why don't CAP squadrons create a BDU closet in which you keep various sizes of BDU's and have the cadets sign them out when they need them and return them cleaned after the activity is over.

Many do exactly this - but those uniforms are "free".  Who pays for the initial stock?

"That Others May Zoom"

Alaric

Quote from: Eclipse on July 02, 2014, 05:14:25 PM
OK, come on.

The ARC isn't a paramilitary auxiliary organization, nor does it train youth to a paramilitary standard, serve as an introduction
to military life for its youth members, nor depend on the military for both missions and resources.

I whine as much as anyone, but the organizations are not really comparable, any more then the CAP and BSA.

To some extent you're right, they are not comparable, but you can't have it both ways.  Either we are a paramilitary organization and introduction to the military and therefore the "second class" citizen uniform is appropriate.  Or, we are an organization whose primary purpose is to perform the tasks given us in a professional manner, in which case we do not need uniforms as shown by the ARC, who respond far more often and to far bigger events on a regular basis than we do.  In either case my original statement stands, if we spent a tenth of the effort on the mission instead of all the bellyaching over uniforms, we'd cut out problems in half