How distinctive is "distinctive" to the Air Force?

[JoeTomasone]

Usually someone of good character will take it in the spirit in which it is meant (I try to phrase it as a "question," as Alex Trebek might say, "Excuse me, but is that regulation?").

That doesn't work when the person being questioned doesn't care.   Take this example, when asked about enforcing the requirement to wear insignia, nametapes, etc on the BDU Field Jacket:

I agree, that the regulation provides for the proper arrangement of insignia and nametapes on the field jacket. However, in general, you can wear any outergarment over your uniform, provided it is in good taste and appropriate for the weather. If it was cold out, and a cadet was wearing a field jacket with no nametapes, no insignia, etc, I wouldn't make them take it off or say anything about the missing items.

I was at a Squadron meeting recently where a Cadet had on BDUs with not a thing on them - no grade insignia, nametape, nothing - as if they were just taken off the rack at AAFES.   No one said a word about it.   WIWAC, I would have been sent home from the meeting and told not to wear the uniform again until it was in compliance.  Today?  I can only assume that we don't want to discourage members or bruise their sensitive constitutions... 


As long as we have people who look the other way and don't hold each other accountable, and as long as we have Commanders who will not act, we will have people who do not comply with regulations, uniform or otherwise, intentionally or not.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

^^Actually, Major, I was talking about the very few times I have asked an Air Force member about a potential uniform infraction, but point taken.

[flyboy53]

I never said I was justifying uniform infractions by CAP members. As a former group commander (and now wing staff officer), however, I am aware of the situations that allow it to occur whether accidential or intended, and I chose to correct those situations appropriately when they arise -- to the point of actually personally buying things if necessary.

The other side of this whole argument isn't so much about uniform violations, but instead about how the Air Force perceives the Civil Air Patrol. We are, afterall, the Air Force's civiliam auxiliary. As such, for years and years, there has been a push and shove about how CAP officers are perceived. In some very wonderful situations, a CAP officer is granted the same respect as a military officer -- complete with the salute, addressing in rank, and other general courtesies. In most other instances, however, we are just civilians who get to wear an Air Force uniform and are generally to be bothered with until we are really needed.

Although I can't confirm it, I wondered if the cloth rank insignia was a sort of allignment along the lines of the other civilian aspects of the Air Force. In my corner of the world, you rarely see civilian DoD firefighters and DoD Police wearing metal rank insignia anymore.

As for the gray shoulder loops, they're certainly better than the maroon ones, and I embrace them because I am aware that OTS cadets used to wear black and silver ones (and may still do) that almost made them look like airline pilots. The same is said of the Academy and ROTC insignia. Face it, we wear rank insignia that makes us distinctive in the eyes of the Air Force; which in a way, is a good thing because we're recognized for who we are. Remember the Air Force extended the CAP a great privilege by allowing the senior members to wear U.S. on their collars and we wear that silver metal name plate without CAP-USAF Auxiliary on the top. So, in my eyes, we are accepted for who we are.

As for the sniping about CAP uniform standards; you're not going to convince me it's strictly a CAP issue. I'm retired Air Force. I know better. Any military insignia collector can find examples of interesting Air Force uniforms and what was worn on them unofficially. As far as standards; recently I flew on an orientaion flight on an Air Force Reserve C-130 with an aeromedical crew in training. One of the med techs (a master sergeant) was grossly overweight. In my era of the Air Force Reserve, he would have been red-lined, counseled or reprimanded, and sent home. Insted, he were there, in training and the senior ranking Air Force Reserve officer (a lieutenant colonel) said nothing. He was a GROSS example of an Air Force NCO, but was there getting paid. Later on that same day, I saw sloppy unkempt airmen going in and out of the BX at the same base. Don't tell me that it is strictly a CAP issue.

The only thing that can be done in those circumstances, is to go to the individual and note the uniform problem with him or her and do it respectfully. Remember, he or she is a volunteer who may be serving his or her country in this organization, but at a very limited income level.

Respect goes a lot farther in seeking a correction to a problem than sniping about standards.

[JoeTomasone]

^^Actually, Major, I was talking about the very few times I have asked an Air Force member about a potential uniform infraction, but point taken.

The problem is obviously not limited to any one group.   However, those under UCMJ face a harsher reality should they choose to ignore a suggestion/order to fix themselves up.   Yes, in CAP we should treat our members with respect, but we should also expect them to wear the uniform they CHOSE to wear correctly (read: respectfully).   

[Polarbear]

I think the main point is that members need to have the intestinal fortitude to point out when something is not right, especially while in the public's eye. As a current serving member of the US Army I have seen my fair share of infractions among seasoned professionals and raw recruits alike. Some don't know, some don't care, but typically both continue to be an issue when no one says anything.

As for CAP being a volunteer organization its going to be hard to maintain standards for a myriad of reasons ranging from not knowing, to "having not signed up for this." In both cases as with the military its a leadership issue and its on the leader to make followers want to adhere to a standard rather than beat them over the head with it. I usually make the point that its about details, and that mindset will train you for bigger and better things ie. ES-Operations. You master the easy steps like uniforms, and you will succeed at every other aspect of the program.

As my final point, the military leans heavily on NCOs to maintain standards. Its always been a point of pride amongst the NCO corps that as a Captain I don't have to go chasing 100+ personnel around and worrying over specific details. That frees me up to conduct the planning process that officers are suppose to be doing. CAP doesn't have an NCO corps in the traditional since due to most members joining as some sort of commissioned officer. As a result I find myself relaying heavily on the Cadets who do begin as lower enlisted and promote into NCO positions. I never faulted a Cadet NCO for correcting a Senior Member, and find that those type of interactions lead to increased cooperation and learning between levels of the program as long as they are professional and taken the right way.

Bottom-line for me is that you get out what you put in. If you want to act like a slug, then you will be treated as one. If you want to be an example for others and wear the uniform properly, then the perception will be different. If you don't know, then find a mentor; but if you don't ask the question then you won't learn. A mistake means that you are trying to learn, but I don't have time for blatant disregard for standards.

Ignore the rules and you just won't get called for anything cool or important, my two cents.   

[abdsp51]

However, those under UCMJ face a harsher reality should they choose to ignore a suggestion/order to fix themselves up.

the most that will happen is a butt chewing or paperwork and that will depend heavily on the individuals CoC.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

The other side of this whole argument isn't so much about uniform violations, but instead about how the Air Force perceives the Civil Air Patrol. We are, afterall, the Air Force's civiliam auxiliary. As such, for years and years, there has been a push and shove about how CAP officers are perceived. In some very wonderful situations, a CAP officer is granted the same respect as a military officer -- complete with the salute, addressing in rank, and other general courtesies.

Except that, as has been pointed out many times, outside of CAP-USAF and higher echelons, much of the Air Force does not even know who we are.

We are not entitled to salutes, customs & courtesies, etc.  Your experience may be different, but rarely have I been accorded such things by an AF member.  It happens much more with members of other services, especially the Army National Guard.  No, I'm not in it for salutes or "good afternoon, Captain," but it seems odd to me that in my experience such "respect" is accorded us more by other services and not by members of our parent service.

As for the gray shoulder loops, they're certainly better than the maroon ones, and I embrace them because I am aware that OTS cadets used to wear black and silver ones (and may still do) that almost made them look like airline pilots. The same is said of the Academy and ROTC insignia. Face it, we wear rank insignia that makes us distinctive in the eyes of the Air Force; which in a way, is a good thing because we're recognized for who we are. Remember the Air Force extended the CAP a great privilege by allowing the senior members to wear U.S. on their collars and we wear that silver metal name plate without CAP-USAF Auxiliary on the top. So, in my eyes, we are accepted for who we are.

Actually, I have long supported us moving to ROTC/OTS/Academy type shoulder marks.


SMWOG


Flight Officer


Technical Flight Officer


Senior Flight Officer


2nd Lieutenant


First Lieutenant


Captain


Major


Lieutenant Colonel



There would be zero confusion with military officers' rank insignia, and it is something already used by another section of the Air Force.

I also would have rather had hard rank/blue CAP epaulettes back rather than U.S. collar brass.  I also don't think adopting the brushed silver nameplate with "Civil Air Patrol" as used on the former CSU would be a bad idea.  Yes, I know that makes me a heretic.

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

I could live with the shoulder marks below. Granted they are more Navy heritage than AF but silver on blue is decidedly AF.

One question. How do they translate to the flight suits, BDUs and even the name plate for the blazer?

[abdsp51]

The ROTC/OTS boards are atrocious.  We need to get our membership to wear the uniforms they wear properly before we go asking for niceities back or how things used to be.  Outside of members not liking the color we need to work with what he have first and foremost.  Whatever the reasons were for the loss of hard rank, blue slides, blue nameplates etc.  It happened and we need to work with what we have now.  We need to put out  a clear cut uniform manual and enforce it and show we can do that before asking for anything back that was removed or making the major changes. 

[JoeTomasone]

The other side of this whole argument isn't so much about uniform violations, but instead about how the Air Force perceives the Civil Air Patrol. We are, afterall, the Air Force's civiliam auxiliary. As such, for years and years, there has been a push and shove about how CAP officers are perceived. In some very wonderful situations, a CAP officer is granted the same respect as a military officer -- complete with the salute, addressing in rank, and other general courtesies.

Except that, as has been pointed out many times, outside of CAP-USAF and higher echelons, much of the Air Force does not even know who we are.

We are not entitled to salutes, customs & courtesies, etc.  Your experience may be different, but rarely have I been accorded such things by an AF member.  It happens much more with members of other services, especially the Army National Guard.  No, I'm not in it for salutes or "good afternoon, Captain," but it seems odd to me that in my experience such "respect" is accorded us more by other services and not by members of our parent service.

Generally speaking, USAF folks fall into one of three categories:

1. Knows about CAP and that customs and courtesies are not required.   In my experience, they tend to voluntarily follow customs and courtesies based on their perception of you and your value to the AF team - i.e. how much respect you have earned.

2. Knows about CAP and does NOT know that customs and courtesies are not required, and therefore renders them.

3. Has no clue who CAP is and renders customs and courtesies "just in case".


Other branches in my experience tend to fall under category 3.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I would add another.

4. Knows who we are only from all the rumour, innuendo and stories - "oh, hell, this 'major' is going to try to make me salute him...I don't want to put up with that" - and avoids the CAP member.

[Polarbear]

This conversation has taken a number of side roads, so what is the issue? Folks want a new uniform, folks want to move to a more USAF related uniform or folks want members of the military to see them is equals?

The thing that everyone needs to remember is that CAP is not part of the military and will never be. Its against our charter and not what the organization was set up to be.

One of the reasons I'm proud to be part of CAP is that the mission(s) is non-combat related but I keep coming across members that want to turn it into some sort of para-military militia. It took along time to convince leaders on my installation that CAP was not just some other JROTC, has legitimate mission, and has capabilities that is can offer to support state and federal agencies. A lot of this negative attitude comes from members who portray themselves as actual military officers. Just based on the different training we receive in CAP, this is obviously not the case (we have different mission and skill sets). This is especially not a good attitude now that everything is on the chopping block budge wise. I have seen government programs canceled just because the people running them couldn't get along with others.

Really two things have to become apparent to everyone very quickly:

1. We have a set of rules to adhere to which includes a unique uniform standard which will remain until adjusted by the proper authorities.

2. We have to be on our best behaviors or things will be cut back in a big a way. We took a building from a CAP squadron that wouldn't follow base rules or play nice with others, ie. doing to proper safety and fire inspections. It sucked hurting my organization like that, but there is a real world and I have no sympathy for anyone who can't follow the rules.

So this conversation can go on about rank and uniforms and such, but I think were missing the point and barely scratching the surface of a larger issue.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

The thing that everyone needs to remember is that CAP is not part of the military and will never be. Its against our charter and not what the organization was set up to be.

I am not saying that.  However, we are "part of" the Air Force, or at least we were until the silly "AUXON/OFF" days.

One of the reasons I'm proud to be part of CAP is that the mission(s) is non-combat related but I keep coming across members that want to turn it into some sort of para-military militia.

What do you mean?  Do these members want us to take up arms?  We cannot do that...period.

A lot of this negative attitude comes from members who portray themselves as actual military officers.

How do they do that?  When I introduce myself in a CAP context it's "Good morning/afternoon/evening, I'm Captain Cyrus Borg."  If I introduce someone else, it's "I would like you to meet Lieutenant/Sergeant/Cadet Bloggins."

Do you mean those who troll for salutes they are not entitled to?  I have never personally witnessed that, and while one incident is too many, there are far fewer instances of that than many would have us believe.

This is especially not a good attitude now that everything is on the chopping block budge wise. I have seen government programs canceled just because the people running them couldn't get along with others.

It certainly appears to be a time to "put up or shut up" regarding our continued status.  However, I believe it would take an Act of Congress to disband us.

Really two things have to become apparent to everyone very quickly:

1. We have a set of rules to adhere to which includes a unique uniform standard which will remain until adjusted by the proper authorities.

2. We have to be on our best behaviors or things will be cut back in a big a way. We took a building from a CAP squadron that wouldn't follow base rules or play nice with others, ie. doing to proper safety and fire inspections. It sucked hurting my organization like that, but there is a real world and I have no sympathy for anyone who can't follow the rules.

So this conversation can go on about rank and uniforms and such, but I think were missing the point and barely scratching the surface of a larger issue.

I am inherently suspicious of sweeping generalisations; i.e. "everyone knows," "everyone must."

I can say that in 20 years of CAP involvement I have only seen a handful of the kind of bad-actors you describe.   Again, one is too many, but it is not endemic.

[SarDragon]

FWIW, from here:

Types of Paramilitaries
Depending on context, paramilitaries can include:
Youth cadet organizations with no wartime role, e.g. India's National Cadet Corps

So CAP could be construed as a paramilitary organization. YMMV.

[JoeTomasone]

Let's also keep in mind that for every moron out trolling for salutes that there are thousands who aren't; for every member wearing the uniform improperly, there are thousands hundreds dozens some who aren't.   

CAP is not easily defined in terms of being a military/paramilitary/civilian.   We have aspects of each.   We are not under UCMJ, but wear USAF uniforms on USAF bases, but are unarmed.   That in itself is almost too confused to process properly.   Therefore, we will always have to deal with being the red-headed stepchild to USAF, no matter if we are the perfect Auxiliary made up of all former AD AF or a bunch of Bad News Bears who can't spell "uniform", much less wear it properly.   

Quite frankly, I don't care terribly much what we wear on the uniform -- or, for that matter, what uniform we wear -- as long as we are identifiable as the USAF's Auxiliary (i.e. looking like our parent service) while not being confused FOR them (because that just makes a mess of things in many different ways).   I'm proud to wear the USAF-style uniforms - and I'll be honest, it is absolutely one of the "perks", if you will, of serving.   We shouldn't be ashamed to wear the uniform, however we should be mindful that it is, indeed, a privilege and treat it as such.    The more we dress, act, and carry ourselves like our USAF brethren, the more we will be trusted, respected, and the better we will be treated. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Therefore, we will always have to deal with being the red-headed stepchild to USAF, no matter if we are the perfect Auxiliary made up of all former AD AF or a bunch of Bad News Bears who can't spell "uniform", much less wear it properly.   

Major, I respectfully disagree...we do NOT have to be a "red-headed stepchild."

A lot of that, as I have said before, can be ameliorated through EDUCATION.  The Air Force teaches new recruits NOTHING about us at BMT, and I would wager at a new Airman's first duty station, so s/he doesn't know Juliet Sierra about these civilians wearing the uniform looking kind of like theirs.

Quite frankly, I don't care terribly much what we wear on the uniform -- or, for that matter, what uniform we wear -- as long as we are identifiable as the USAF's Auxiliary (i.e. looking like our parent service) while not being confused FOR them (because that just makes a mess of things in many different ways).   I'm proud to wear the USAF-style uniforms - and I'll be honest, it is absolutely one of the "perks", if you will, of serving.   We shouldn't be ashamed to wear the uniform, however we should be mindful that it is, indeed, a privilege and treat it as such.    The more we dress, act, and carry ourselves like our USAF brethren, the more we will be trusted, respected, and the better we will be treated.

Well-said, but then we come to the dichotomy of "as long as we are identifiable as the USAF's Auxiliary." 

We are identifiable in the modified AF uniform - which not everyone can wear.

We are not identifiable in the grey/white/blazer/polo setups, except for the small lettering on the grey nameplate.

There are also the twin, and in my opinion insurmountable, challenges of reconciling those who want a uniform that all can wear showing our AF heritage, and those who say "we shouldn't have any connection to the AF, so just shut-up and wear the G/W."

[abdsp51]

Therefore, we will always have to deal with being the red-headed stepchild to USAF, no matter if we are the perfect Auxiliary made up of all former AD AF or a bunch of Bad News Bears who can't spell "uniform", much less wear it properly.   

Major, I respectfully disagree...we do NOT have to be a "red-headed stepchild."

A lot of that, as I have said before, can be ameliorated through EDUCATION.  The Air Force teaches new recruits NOTHING about us at BMT, and I would wager at a new Airman's first duty station, so s/he doesn't know Juliet Sierra about these civilians wearing the uniform looking kind of like theirs.

Again there is much more critical information and training to be done in BMT than teaching about us, and it is not the Air Force's responsibility at any level to educate Airmen about us.  And I can tell there are far more Airmen down in the trenches that know about us by word of mouth than by any class that can be taught.  I suggest that if you really want people to know you coordinate with local commanders and present a briefing at their commanders calls and or arrange some time at FTAC. 

[Tim Medeiros]

The Air Force teaches new recruits NOTHING about us at BMT, and I would wager at a new Airman's first duty station, so s/he doesn't know Juliet Sierra about these civilians wearing the uniform looking kind of like theirs.

Considering I highly doubt you've been to BMT in the last decade, at least, I'd LOVE to know just when you expect brand new trainees to learn about CAP?  Considering the pace of information learned there, when I went 2 years ago, was on par with drinking from a fire hose, I'd be surprised if any trainees actually remembered we had an Auxiliary.  Also, how would you relate it to key skills that every enlisted Airman needs to know?  Sorry, but knowledge about CAP isn't critical to my success as an Airman.


As for learning about us at our first duty station, that would be better.  Though most of what is said in FTAC goes in one ear and out the other, and if there are handouts, they (at best) get filed away somewhere in the back closet of your dorm, at worst they hit the dumpster on the way out for the day.  I'd rather see a briefing about CAP happen during my commanders call, or an enlisted/airmen all call.  At least at that point I'm generally more receptive to information because it's from people in my actual chain of command, and I know they are generally looking out for me and my EPR.


Also, just so you know, there is at least one career field whose CDCs mention CAP so someone does learn about us 

[flyboy53]

The Air Force teaches new recruits NOTHING about us at BMT, and I would wager at a new Airman's first duty station, so s/he doesn't know Juliet Sierra about these civilians wearing the uniform looking kind of like theirs.

Considering I highly doubt you've been to BMT in the last decade, at least, I'd LOVE to know just when you expect brand new trainees to learn about CAP?  Considering the pace of information learned there, when I went 2 years ago, was on par with drinking from a fire hose, I'd be surprised if any trainees actually remembered we had an Auxiliary.  Also, how would you relate it to key skills that every enlisted Airman needs to know?  Sorry, but knowledge about CAP isn't critical to my success as an Airman.


As for learning about us at our first duty station, that would be better.  Though most of what is said in FTAC goes in one ear and out the other, and if there are handouts, they (at best) get filed away somewhere in the back closet of your dorm, at worst they hit the dumpster on the way out for the day.  I'd rather see a briefing about CAP happen during my commanders call, or an enlisted/airmen all call.  At least at that point I'm generally more receptive to information because it's from people in my actual chain of command, and I know they are generally looking out for me and my EPR.


Also, just so you know, there is at least one career field whose CDCs mention CAP so someone does learn about us 

Why just BMT and which CDCs?

Why not make CAP part of any history and traditions portion of professional military training, whether it be leadership school, OTS, NCO Academy, ACSC, AF ROTC, AF Academy -- what have you, OR part of any Air Force orientation done by the Air Force/AFRES/ANG Recruiting Service.

The problem is (from the inside) that the Air Force is a pretty big organization, and most of us either got wrapped up in our duties or in the history and tradions of the command or unit we were part of. Yet how many Air Force people -- who would probably be impressed -- know that the first two Air Medals went to a CAP aircrew. How many people know the CAP's wartime record or the things we do today. Knowledge is power and in this case, it would build a different level of respect of the organization.

You know, years ago, CAP was involved in signing up veterans for the VA and/or recruiting. That's where a prospective airman would learn more about the CAP -- first impressions at the recruiting station, helping the recruiter. Ever wonder how many people you could recruit into the CAP from a recruiting office who may or may not be qualified for military service?

Also, you know the Air Force Association serves the CAP well by including the "command" in the annual almanac, yet I never see any reference to the CAP in anything put out by the AF Sergeants Association. That's just one aspect of the "best kept secret" problem the CAP has PR wise with the Air Force rank and file.

[lordmonar]

The Air Force teaches new recruits NOTHING about us at BMT, and I would wager at a new Airman's first duty station, so s/he doesn't know Juliet Sierra about these civilians wearing the uniform looking kind of like theirs.

Considering I highly doubt you've been to BMT in the last decade, at least, I'd LOVE to know just when you expect brand new trainees to learn about CAP?  Considering the pace of information learned there, when I went 2 years ago, was on par with drinking from a fire hose, I'd be surprised if any trainees actually remembered we had an Auxiliary.  Also, how would you relate it to key skills that every enlisted Airman needs to know?  Sorry, but knowledge about CAP isn't critical to my success as an Airman.

Neither are all the names of the MAJCOMS and what a number air force is  or what your rights as a renter are, or the thousand of other things that they make you learn at BMTS.

Yes they are busy....I know I sure was.......but it would be nice to have a half page in the BMTS study guide and maybe a whole page in the Professional Development Guide....maybe rate a question on WAPS testing.

No one is saying that BMTS/OCS/AFA/ROTC trainees need to be able to pass level one......but they should be told that we exist.

As for learning about us at our first duty station, that would be better.  Though most of what is said in FTAC goes in one ear and out the other, and if there are handouts, they (at best) get filed away somewhere in the back closet of your dorm, at worst they hit the dumpster on the way out for the day.  I'd rather see a briefing about CAP happen during my commanders call, or an enlisted/airmen all call.  At least at that point I'm generally more receptive to information because it's from people in my actual chain of command, and I know they are generally looking out for me and my EPR.


Also, just so you know, there is at least one career field whose CDCs mention CAP so someone does learn about us 

I agree with you here.....in fact I think that If I Were God For A Day (IIWGFAD) there would be a CAP unit on each and every USAF installation.  That CAP's existance would be breifed at new commers breifings, FTAC and commander's call.

That it would part ALS, NCOA, and SNCOA.

I think that CAP's uniform regulation should just be a chapter in AFI 36-2903 so everyone knows that we are part of the Air Force.

But as always YMMV.