Exceptions to Gender-Based Grooming Standards?

[NIN]

Has it always been that way, that only the CAP/CC can grant uniform waivers?

...how far back was this, maybe it wasn't on the level all the way up, maybe it wasn't on a base and that's why someone might have bent a little to provide an opportunity for some cadets in a way that wasn't likely to cause any foundations to crumble, rather than shoving regulations at them?

Well, it pretty much always (to my lame remembery) has been that modifications to the uniform outside the bounds of that which has been published in 39-1 has to come from NHQ (usually /DP, the OPR).

I'm not much one to shove regs at anybody, but there is a difference between "providing cadets an opportunity to participate" and "making things up as we go along."

"Gee, cadet, I understand your parents are hippies who have a real serious problem with the military-industrial complex, so we'll just allow you to not participate in the cadet portions of the cadet program. Why, yes, you can wear that nehru jacket..."

The program, for the most part, is the program.  Participate under the auspices of the program, or don't.   There are mechanisms and precedents that allow members with religious restrictions (ie. grooming, clothing wear) to be accommodated within the framework of our existing uniforms without going to a length to actually create a uniform that doesn't exist.

[rustyjeeper]

Someone please lock the thread before someone really goes off.

+1

[Storm Chaser]

I for one think we've been discussing this matter in a civil way. Just because someone expressed a differing opinion doesn't mean that we're not being civil anymore. That's the problem with today's society. If we can't agree on the things that matter most to us at the core or that are a sensitive subject to some, then we prefer not to discuss them at all. Well, that's not how the real world works.

[a2capt]

... Well, that's not how the real world works.

+1

[spaatzmom]

It was an extreme interpretation held by this branch of Pentecostals.  The issue was brought up well before the event and was determined by legal at NHQ that the girls did not have to wear pants, but did have to find the correct and matching material to make their skirts out of if they could not find a pre made skirt.

This was something you personally were involved in and / or saw, or something you "heard".

Sounds apocryphal to me, and well outside NHQ's authority.  As NIN says, good luck on a base or interacting with other military agencies.
Not to mention how would you inspect them as compared to their peers?  etc., etc.

Personally was involved in and / or saw.  I would not post anything to do with hearsay without such a disclaimer. 

[Johnny Yuma]

Despite all their efforts very few of them ended up living happy lives and of all the ones I know of only 1 lived beyond 60 thanks to the suicides, victims of homicide at the hands of their lover, drug addiction, acute and long term complications from surgery, etc.

Maybe because transgender persons are told things like this:

No amount of believing, funny dressing,  counseling, drug therapy and disfiguring surgery will ever change a man into a woman or vice versa. You are who you are and I'd suggest you work on finding out how to be happy with you and your life living in your own skin, as it were.

Now I am not transgender, but I remeber how hard it was dropping my christianity and accepting atheism. The first time I publically said it, I was beaten up by Christians. In following days, I received death threats. For years, I was a closet atheist And living an unhappy life. It was until I found support groups I finally became comfortable to publically say I was an atheist. Since that time, I have lived a more happy life.

Gender assignment is fundamental within your DNA, period. No procedure, hormone, drug or surgery will ever change that. You can have procedures done that will help you pretend you're something you're not, but your genetic makeup remains and bottom line means that that person will never fully function as their "new" gender.   

How anyone can interpret this as hatred or bias for anyone I dunno. That's YOUR hangup, not mine.

I'm agnostic, but I've never, EVER heard of anyone leaving the christian faith getting beaten up for it anywhere. Lots of examples of the opposite, however. That said, I cannot believe that anyone would try to equivocate going through the whole transgender thing to leaving your church. It's like comparing apples to jackhammers. You leave your faith you can always change your stance or go back if you desire, once you start down the transgender reassignment path, that's GONE.

[sarmed1]

For all intents and purposes; its about whats legally represented on which ever documents you use to establish identity (if you have them legally changed from Male to Female) thats what you are.  So along that same context, for CAP whichever is recorded for you thats how you have to dress and be while you are at CAP.  Get that changed to match the legal document; thats who you are then.

MK

[LSThiker]

Gender assignment is fundamental within your DNA, period. No procedure, hormone, drug or surgery will ever change that. You can have procedures done that will help you pretend you're something you're not, but your genetic makeup remains and bottom line means that that person will never fully function as their "new" gender.

Your genital are assigned in the DNA, your psychological gender is not as clear cut.  Are there reasons in epigenetic, miRNA, post-transcriptional, or post-translational processes that explain gender dysphoria?  It is unknown to definitively say one way or the other.  There are biological hermaphrodites. 

I am reminded of a seminar I attended two years ago on neuroscience.  A neuroscientist, cannot recall the name without really digging back into my files, mentioned an interesting case he worked on and published.  A patient was convicted of child rape.  According to the patient, he had never once had any sexual desire for children until a specific period of time (this was supported by family, internet files, and his wife).  While in jail, it was discovered that he had a brain tumor.  The brain tumor was removed and he reported having no sexual desire for children.  A few years after the removal (and still in jail), he reported having sexual desires for children again.  A scan showed that the tumor had returned.  It was removed and he reported having no desires.  Yearly, he gets a scan to look for the tumor.  It has yet returned and he has yet to have any sexual desires.

While this is not directly the same as epigenetics, the point is to demonstrate that psychology is not disconnected from biological processes.  So it is not as simple as saying you are a male because you have the Y chromosome.  Your genetics play a role into your psychology as well as your experiences. 

I'm agnostic,

Okay, so are you agnostic christian or agnostic atheist?  Theism addresses belief while gnostic addresses knowledge.  There are gnostic atheists, gnostic christians, agnostic atheists, and agnostic christians. 

but I've never, EVER heard of anyone leaving the christian faith getting beaten up for it anywhere.

Well now you have.  I have met others that have been thrown out of their family house and suffered other consequences.

That said, I cannot believe that anyone would try to equivocate going through the whole transgender thing to leaving your church. It's like comparing apples to jackhammers. You leave your faith you can always change your stance or go back if you desire, once you start down the transgender reassignment path, that's GONE.

I am not.  What I am saying is that having support while going through major life changes is instrumental to your "happiness".  I had no support after dropping a significant portion of my life.  I was a fundamentalist Catholic prior.  Having to pretend to believe and preach God was hard on me as I no longer believed.  My family refused associate with any non-believers.  So by admitting that I no longer believed in God meant losing my family.  I was pretending to be a person I was not and was not allowed to live my life the way I wanted too.  It is a tough part of my life.  A person making the decision to go through transgender therapy will also face a tough path if he/she does not have the support.

[thebeggerpie]

For all intents and purposes; its about whats legally represented on which ever documents you use to establish identity (if you have them legally changed from Male to Female) thats what you are.  So along that same context, for CAP whichever is recorded for you thats how you have to dress and be while you are at CAP.  Get that changed to match the legal document; thats who you are then.

MK

But doesn't that bring up the sticky issue of bedding for overnight? If what's in my pants is still male, but my legal paperwork is female, who would I stay with for overnight activities?

And because bedding isn't split up by age, do you think the parents of a 13-year old girl would be happy to know that she spend the week with a 17-year old male-that-identifies-as-a-female as a bunk mate?

I'm more partial to say if they have gone through all of the surgery and everything, than treat them like their desired gender(including uniforms and all that.).

But, really, I'm not an expert of any of this and that's just my gut feeling.

[Johnny Yuma]

SNIPPED FOR BREVITY

You're not the only person who's lost their entire family over your principles. BTDT and got the false arrest record and $10K in legal bills to clear my name to prove it.

A person looking to transgender therapy may not find an easy path nor even happiness even with support of family and friends. The ones that I knew and worked with didn't.

Oh well, forget it. i guess the next time a cadet posts on here that he's exhibiting signs of a serious psychological disorder I'll just cite CAP regulations to him. Seems all too often they've replaced common sense on here...

[Eclipse]

I'll just cite CAP regulations to him. Seems all too often they've replaced common sense on here...

Good, because that's all you're allowed or qualified to do.

Any opinion, advice, suggestions, or ideation that this situation is "wrong, right, or otherwise" is outside the purview and expertise of CAP as an
organization, and should be treated as such.

Part of the intent of CAP membership is surrendering the individual to be part of something larger, and that includes in regards to dress and appearance.
If you are not capable of participating, in some fashion, with the approval of NHQ or otherwise, within that relatively loose definition, then
CAP is literally not for you and you should move on.

NHQ needs to address this directly and with short sentences, and the end result should be that whatever your legal gender is, that's the uniform you wear.

Beyond that, MYOB.  CAP is absolutely not the place anyone should seek counsel, advice, or redress in regards to this and related issues.

[LSThiker]

Oh well, forget it. i guess the next time a cadet posts on here that he's exhibiting signs of a serious psychological disorder I'll just cite CAP regulations to him. Seems all too often they've replaced common sense on here...

Considering you are not a mental health specialist, gender therapy specialist, physician, or psychologist, that might be for the better. 

After all, saying "you are who you are and I'd suggest you work on finding out how to be happy with you and your life living in your own skin, as it were." is not the proper way to address a "serious psychological disorder".

[Майор Хаткевич]

That's sort of like telling a lesbian cadet that she was born a female, and meant to like boys, isn't it?

[Johnny Yuma]

I'll just cite CAP regulations to him. Seems all too often they've replaced common sense on here...

Good, because that's all you're allowed or qualified to do.

Any opinion, advice, suggestions, or ideation that this situation is "wrong, right, or otherwise" is outside the purview and expertise of CAP as an
organization, and should be treated as such.

Part of the intent of CAP membership is surrendering the individual to be part of something larger, and that includes in regards to dress and appearance.
If you are not capable of participating, in some fashion, with the approval of NHQ or otherwise, within that relatively loose definition, then
CAP is literally not for you and you should move on.

NHQ needs to address this directly and with short sentences, and the end result should be that whatever your legal gender is, that's the uniform you wear.

Beyond that, MYOB.  CAP is absolutely not the place anyone should seek counsel, advice, or redress in regards to this and related issues.

Super!

So lemme ask, if a cadet next week posts on here he's thinking about blowing his brains out because he didn't pass his Mitchell, what reg do I cite?

Sheesh.

[Johnny Yuma]

Oh well, forget it. i guess the next time a cadet posts on here that he's exhibiting signs of a serious psychological disorder I'll just cite CAP regulations to him. Seems all too often they've replaced common sense on here...

Considering you are not a mental health specialist, gender therapy specialist, physician, or psychologist, that might be for the better. 

After all, saying "you are who you are and I'd suggest you work on finding out how to be happy with you and your life living in your own skin, as it were." is not the proper way to address a "serious psychological disorder".

You know about as much of my credentials as I do yours.

You're right, next time I'll tell him he's super screwed in the head and to seek therapy. That would be so much nicer.

[/sarcasm]

[Johnny Yuma]

That's sort of like telling a lesbian cadet that she was born a female, and meant to like boys, isn't it?

Ummm, No.

[CadetFaith]

Oh well, forget it. i guess the next time a cadet posts on here that he's exhibiting signs of a serious psychological disorder I'll just cite CAP regulations to him. Seems all too often they've replaced common sense on here...

I, uh, don't think that the acceptable treatment for any psychological disorder is "Suck it up and be normal". It's an awful lot like how folks tell people suffering from chronic depression to "cheer up". I understand that you're trying to help, but giving advice like that is probably not-so-productive. I don't know if you're familiar with gender dysphoria, and I wasn't actually sure if I experience it, but, your post very much hurt me. I'm not trying to attack you or anything, just maybe give better understanding.

Honestly, though I've very much appreciated the advice given to me on this thread (since the original post, I've joined my school's gay-straight alliance and started looking at my options regarding mental health professionals), this topic was made only to clear up any options available to transgender cadets regarding grooming standards. Direct advice to myself on this thread might not be entirely appropriate, though I guess that folks are welcome to contact me privately if they really have anything to offer.

EDIT:

You're right, next time I'll tell him he's super screwed in the head and to seek therapy. That would be so much nicer.

I already did get a message of "you're super screwed in the head" from your comments, so I think that at least recommending the help of a professional is a positive change from "go fix yourself".

[Майор Хаткевич]

That's sort of like telling a lesbian cadet that she was born a female, and meant to like boys, isn't it?

Ummm, No.

Oh right...unlike gender reassignment, a gay cadet can choose to change, right?

[Eclipse]

I'll just cite CAP regulations to him. Seems all too often they've replaced common sense on here...

Good, because that's all you're allowed or qualified to do.

Any opinion, advice, suggestions, or ideation that this situation is "wrong, right, or otherwise" is outside the purview and expertise of CAP as an
organization, and should be treated as such.

Part of the intent of CAP membership is surrendering the individual to be part of something larger, and that includes in regards to dress and appearance.
If you are not capable of participating, in some fashion, with the approval of NHQ or otherwise, within that relatively loose definition, then
CAP is literally not for you and you should move on.

NHQ needs to address this directly and with short sentences, and the end result should be that whatever your legal gender is, that's the uniform you wear.

Beyond that, MYOB.  CAP is absolutely not the place anyone should seek counsel, advice, or redress in regards to this and related issues.

Super!

So lemme ask, if a cadet next week posts on here he's thinking about blowing his brains out because he didn't pass his Mitchell, what reg do I cite?

There is no response when people pose ridiculous questions on the internet other then not to respond.

[Eclipse]

That's sort of like telling a lesbian cadet that she was born a female, and meant to like boys, isn't it?

Ummm, No.

Oh right...unlike gender reassignment, a gay cadet can choose to change, right?

Gay cadets don't have to change, nor does anyone need to know.