Rank Versus Grade

Started by 1sgtarcherCT062, June 01, 2008, 08:15:48 PM

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1sgtarcherCT062

Cadets in my squadron insist on saying rank, instead of grade. I try to tell them, that lots of the basics and airmen, don't have rank, they have just grade. So if any cadets in any squadrons refer to the stripes/pips/diamonds on their uniform as rank, correct them, and tell them it is grade, not rank, and that rank is a position in the chain of command.

Title edit - MIKE

Hawk200

Problem is that it's commonly referred to as "rank insignia". CAP uses the term "insignia of grade" as well. "Rank insignia" is a perfectly acceptable term.

IF that's the most of your problems, you're lucky. Don't sweat the petty stuff.

BTW, what does that have to do with "dirty mouths"?

Eclipse

Quote from: Hawk200 on June 01, 2008, 08:24:57 PM
BTW, what does that have to do with "dirty mouths"?

Ditto (?)

"That Others May Zoom"

shorning

Quote from: 1sgtarcherCT062 on June 01, 2008, 08:15:48 PM
...and that rank is a position in the chain of command.

Hold on there, sport.  Rank is not "a position in the chain of command".  Here's what Leadership 2000 and Beyond has to say:

Quote from: Leadership 2000 and Beyond, Volume 1 (page 14, 3rd para.)The term "grade" and "rank" often are confused. Grade is a major step in the
promotion structure or program while rank is grade adjusted for time. "Captain"
or "major" are examples of grade; several individuals can have the same grade.
Rank normally shows seniority; no two persons in a grade have the same rank –
one is always senior to the other.

So you kinda have the right idea, but you're a little off vector.

MIKE

#4
Quote from: 1sgtarcherCT062 on June 01, 2008, 08:15:48 PM
... and that rank is a position in the chain of command.

Go read that section of Chapter 1 of your leadership text again... Rank as defined therein is seniority with a given grade.  So, if you have two C/SSgts... one will outrank the other because he is senior based on his date of grade.
Mike Johnston

MIKE

I really need to scan that pic of the stool and the two cadets from my leadership text.
Mike Johnston

mikeylikey

Quote from: MIKE on June 01, 2008, 08:50:49 PM
I really need to scan that pic of the stool and the two cadets from my leadership text.

I always liked that.  I thought it was one of the better pictorial examples that they did not include in the rewrites.  It is a shame, it made understanding this concept easier. 
What's up monkeys?

lordmonar

In the real military...rank is determined by the following factors.

Grade, Time in grade, time in service, and beleive it or not birthday.

Also, rank is determined by your position in the chain of command.

For example as as TSgt I supervised another TSgt who out ranked me based on TIG but I was placed over him in the Chain of Command.

Also we have special circumstances where a lower ranking person out ranks someone due to position....such as Pilot In Command.

Finally we have the situation of tennant units not directly in the chain of command but are subordinate to the local base commander for those issue that come under his perview.

Such as an AFSOC unit on an ACC base.

The ACC commander out ranks the tennit unit commander on many polcy/safety/housing/uniform/adminstrative issues but not for operational issues.

CAP has the same sort of problems multipled due to the fact that our grade in not tied to specific jobs.....i.e. a Capt Squadron CC with a Maj/LT Col/Col under him in the chain of command.  Or a Lt Col Group CC over a Col Squadron CC.

On the cadet side of things we sometimes see the same thing... a C/CC may only be a C/1st Lt with a C/Maj as a "special advisor" to the DCC or CC.  The C/1st Lt out ranks the C/Maj.

But the basic explaniantion about grade vs rank is that people with the same grade have different ranks based on TIG and TIS and position.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Jolt

The difference in my interpretation is that I consider grade, rank, and position as three different things.  So I would say that the C/Maj adviser outranks the C/1st Lt C/CC, but the C/1st Lt C/CC has a higher position than the C/Maj.

RiverAux

While there is a technical difference, I don't see it as an issue to worry about.  As lordmonor demonstrates there is a difference between rank and grade in the "real" military and I'd bet if you asked that TSgt what their "rank" was, they woudl say "Technical Sergeant" rather than trying to explain where they fit in their unit chain of command. 

NavLT

Rank and Grade are tough on newbies that is true.

I think we need to keep a closer eye on why people who are MSGTs are in a position where a SSGT is there boss.

If cadets are being promoted based on ability, performance and professionalism then you should very very rarely have a Cadet commander as a C/2LT with a C/Maj  as cadet activities officer. Maybe we should not be promoting cadets that we don't trust with command to C/Maj.

It is possible that the C/Maj had command for a year and rotated to a new job in which case outstanding planning and use of experience but I keep finding units with Cadet Officers and NCO's promoted based on tests alone that no one wants running the flight or the squadron.  That is a problem especially when they go to encampment, NCSA or the Military.

V/R
Lt J.

JROB

I would have to agree, I'm a C/MSgt and the C/CC of my Sq and when I do visit with other sqaudrons in our area I see that cadets are promoted soley on whether or not they can pass a test and not on their ability.

C/COL AJROTC(Ret.)
C/MSgt CAP
Maj. Jason Robinson
Squadron Commander, Desoto Composite Squadron
SER-MS-096

"If you are in trouble anywhere in the world, an airplane can fly over and drop flowers, but a helicopter can land and save your life"-Igor Sikorsky

CASH172

What I also generally find is different senior CP officers and unit commanders have different ideas on what the C/CC is and how to fill it.  Some believe the position must absolutely be filled, while others feel the position is unnecessary until a cadet with enough leadership experience is available.  There's no one way of doing it, and it depends on the unit. 

lordmonar

I think everyone is promoted based on the their ability to meet the requirments as spelled out in 52-16.

What sometimes happens is that different units have different interpetations of the subjective part of the promotion requirements.

One of my observations is that those who complain about "promotion based on tests alone" have been in units where the bar has been held too high.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

NavLT

I think that the Commanders approval requirement for 52-16 is the gray zone, it emperically assumes that all commanders will exercise good judgement on wether a cadet deserves the promotion.  Like all things in life some commanders do and some commanders do not.

The Military has a easy way to validate this in that they set quotas on promotions forcing commanders to choose the best, which is not practical for CAP.  The Military also rotates promoted officers every promotion or two so that they are evaluated by fresh commanders to confirm it is not a single commanders opinion that gets a member promoted, again not practical for CAP. 

I think that the problem here lies not with the cadet passing tests and being handed promotions but the poor job CAP does on the selection and training of unit commanders.  Too many units fall to SM Joe who is willing and time able to fill the job with no expereince.  I don't see a solution for the short fall on members but what CAP does to train new senior Joe to be a Unit Commander is not very robust. 

Most of the E-Services functions are ment for Wing or Higher commanders to get reports and utilize tracking, the New Unit commander can't figure half of the system out and almost none of it helps him run the unit.  SIMS does a great job of helping run the Cadet side of the house (not that it has been whole heartedly endorsed by national) but the real killers to a new unit commander are admin, finance, supply and Personnel issues.  CAP training at the UCC/SLS level tends to focus on the org chart and the values of CAP which are imprortant but the paperwork (which is boring for a class) is what buries new commanders.

So until CAP as a corporation figures out how to instil the spirit and the know how of how to run a unit into the newbie commander and has the stones to look at commanders who promote (as evidienced by the actions of cadets at say encampment) without reguard to maturity we will always have cadets wearing diamonds who act like two stripers.

V/r
LT J.