Acceptable Encampment Identifiers

[IceNine]

Or you could actually run the encampment like you do your units,. Everyone should know who their superiors are without a neon sign. for most of the cadets, they really only have to know their flight staff. Anyone higher is the Flight Commander's problem.

I used to take that position, until I was the one actually in charge of selecting the staff, planning most of the encampment, overseeing the activities, being responsible for all 100+ cadets, and still having to know where every single cadet under me fell in the chain. When I had 20+ cadet staff to remember in addition to ensuring the hectic encampment day went to par (along with everything else going on in that short week), I don't always have time to root through my brain to remember who is in charge what. Especially when we had two or three sets of twins at this encampment, one pair holding staff positions.

The basics aren't the only ones who need to know who is who. Granted, I didn't necessarily HAVE to know immediately which cadets were where and in charge of what. I TECHNICALLY only had to know where my squadron commanders and C/XO were, but it made my job a whole lot easier to be able to tell at a glance who goes where. For instance, I had several points during the encampment where there were literally six different activities going on at once, staggered, in order to accomdate for helicopter rides, and I was coordinating it all from a room with a radio. It made things immensely easier for me to look out the window and see that my blue flight, was drilling, Red Flight was heading to the barracks, Green flight was in the classroom, etc.

Encampment is not designed to be run like a weekly meeting. That's why it's an encampment. I know that there will be those on this board who are going to reply with, "Well, I rank an encampment twice as big, with a week to plan it, on a base the size of Nevada, and all the cadets were clones. And I didn't need no silly colored hats." In which case I would say, "Congratulations. But my job was much easier with the hats."

I am in a similar situation, as Commandant but go ahead and add a whole slew of senior staff to the mix.  Otherwise the size is comparable.

Would I say that "silly colored hats" are necessary to my job.  Nope.  Could it help...Maybe.  But at the end of the day its just one more thing to try and remember.

Certainly its much easier to not attempt to learn names or positions or whatever.  I feel that these silly hats would simply give me a reason to disconnect and not really learn who the cadets are.

YMMV

[SAR-EMT1]

When I went to encampment I was a C/A1C or C/SrA. I was required to remove the insignia and either wear CAP cutouts or have bare lapels. Also trainees removed our ribbons. This was back in 2002 at NTC Great Lakes.

[IceNine]

^Insignia was a one hit wonder.

Ribbons are still a no go.  It alleviates a lot of headache

[Timbo]

When I went to encampment I was a C/A1C or C/SrA. I was required to remove the insignia and either wear CAP cutouts or have bare lapels. Also trainees removed our ribbons. This was back in 2002 at NTC Great Lakes.

2002?  Really......as I recall that practice was a no-go as early as 97.  I even think I recall a letter from the Cadet Programs directorate on the subject "curbing" it's practice, along with "frocking". 

[IceNine]

Yep, and with all things once someone bothered to to open the books and follow the rules it was changed.

[Nathan]

Certainly its much easier to not attempt to learn names or positions or whatever.  I feel that these silly hats would simply give me a reason to disconnect and not really learn who the cadets are.

Well... to a point... yes, it does encourage that behavior. And unfortunately, command itself seems to encourage that behavior. But there isn't really any way for me (or you) as a leader of 100+ people to remember everything we would need to know about everyone and still have the time and mental capacity to run the encampment effectively. This is, essentially, why encampments have an entire staff running them, not just a single person. Generally, the only basics I got to know particularly well during the encampment were the ones who ended up in my office for disciplinary reports.

[Eclipse]

Certainly its much easier to not attempt to learn names or positions or whatever.  I feel that these silly hats would simply give me a reason to disconnect and not really learn who the cadets are.

Well... to a point... yes, it does encourage that behavior. And unfortunately, command itself seems to encourage that behavior. But there isn't really any way for me (or you) as a leader of 100+ people to remember everything we would need to know about everyone and still have the time and mental capacity to run the encampment effectively. This is, essentially, why encampments have an entire staff running them, not just a single person. Generally, the only basics I got to know particularly well during the encampment were the ones who ended up in my office for disciplinary reports.

Yep - welcome to span of control.

Want to know them personally?  Be a TAC or a Flight Commander, otherwise, the sad reality is that many of them will come and go without you ever meeting them.

Nature of the game.

[Stonewall]

It's easy.  Seniors are automatically staff.  No need for special hats, insignia or tshirts.

Cadet Staff, well that's easy too.  They're the ones standing 20 ft tall.    at least that's how it felt at my first encampment.  My flight sergeant could have been 4' 9", but as far as I was concerned he was full-blown adult standing 6' 10" because he carried himself as if his full-time job in life was to be a C/TSgt and Flight Sergeant.

Hats are a good idea, but they can be costly, even at $5 a pop.  With 100 cadets, that's 500 additional bucks that could have been spent on something else.  Staff with special hats and pin on rank, sure.

[Timbo]

I hate to say that a rainbow of multicolored hats in a formation of 100+ people is laughable.  Even colored T-shirts. 

I do not think 39-1 says we can wear colored hats or t-shirts, and just because it is done at encampment does not make it correct.

Knowing who you are in charge of, and who is in charge of you is all that is needed.  Wouldn't it be easier to say "basics wear brown T-shirts, all staff wear BLACK".  That would be acceptable according to the uniform regs, and would be an "acceptable identifier".

^ 2 shirt colors, nothing more.  Wow.....I amaze myself sometimes. 

[Ned]

^ 2 shirt colors, nothing more.  Wow.....I amaze myself sometimes. 

Amazing, all right.

I want to be the guy that tells Mom -- "Hey, no problem Ma'am.  We use underwear color to tell the staff and basics apart.  Why do you ask?"   


Why not just let commanders decide what they need to do (within regulations) at encampment and stop double guessing about what they need or don't need and criticising them for the exercise of their discretion?

Why not just support them in doing a difficult and unappreciated job insted of anonymously sharpshooting them on the net?


"I amaze myself sometimes."

Ned Lee

[Eclipse]

double guessing about what they need or don't need and criticizing them for the exercise of their discretion?

Because they are exercising a "discretion" they don't actually have, and when they do, it cause issues for similar activities as well as back at the home unit.

[Ned]

Because they are exercising a "discretion" they don't actually have, and when they do, it cause issues for similar activities as well as back at the home unit.

Whoa, there, Bob. 

Back up three words on my quote and you'll see the words "within regulations".



Are you saying that commanders cannot use their discretion while obeying regulations?


If you truly believe that, remind me not to work for you anytime soon.



(But as a staff guy, I'll continue to support you in the exercise of your command discretion.

As long as you follow regulations.)

Ned Lee

[Timbo]

Why not just let commanders decide what they need to do (within regulations) at encampment and stop double guessing about what they need or don't need and criticising them for the exercise of their discretion?

Why not just support them in doing a difficult and unappreciated job instead of anonymously sharpshooting them on the net?
Ned Lee

First....who exactly did I criticize??  Second, I thought this thread was for expressing ideas about what would be simplest to do.  I gave what my idea was, and it was the simplest of all those presented, and fell within the regulation guidelines.

Why not support a fellow members right to express their opinions here, instead of bashing them and "sharpshooting" them....Mr Lee.

-Tim Baker   

[Eclipse]

Because they are exercising a "discretion" they don't actually have, and when they do, it cause issues for similar activities as well as back at the home unit.

Whoa, there, Bob. 

Back up three words on my quote and you'll see the words "within regulations".

Are you saying that commanders cannot use their discretion while obeying regulations?

Of course not, but in this case, little latitude for that purported discretion exists, and in nearly every discussion of this that comes up, the commanders who decide to do their own thing publicly acknowledge they are breaking regs, and then say they don't care, or try and justify it with an excuse about making it easier to manage the activity, which is irrelevant to the conversation.

"Within regulations" there is no allowance for rainbow colored shirts, or grade insignia on hats. Period. Especially the grade on hats as when and where this can be worn has recently been specified by NHQ.

Further, the authority to define local unit hats is not explicitly extended to activity commanders.  Certainly one could make the argument that it should be, however assuming that's the case, what may, or may not, be on those hats is very specific within 39-1.

I agree completely that "within regs" commanders have to use discretion, but this isn't a case with an ambiguous regulation, or something so new or unusual its never been spoken to.

This is simply local commanders doing whatever they think looks "cool", and the chain having more important things to worry about.

Which doesn't make it right, or negate the issues it causes elsewhere.

[Timbo]

"Within regulations" there is no allowance for rainbow colored shirts, or grade insignia on hats. Period. Especially the grade on hats as when and where this can be worn has recently been specified by NHQ.

Hmm......like the PAWG Wing Commander letting the Encampment Senior Staff wear metal grade insignia on their hats in 2008?  The pictures are floating around on the web, so I guess National Approves. 

[Eclipse]

"Within regulations" there is no allowance for rainbow colored shirts, or grade insignia on hats. Period. Especially the grade on hats as when and where this can be worn has recently been specified by NHQ.

Hmm......like the PAWG Wing Commander letting the Encampment Senior Staff wear metal grade insignia on their hats in 2008?  The pictures are floating around on the web, so I guess National Approves. 

Do not confuse apathy with approval.

[SWASH]

Can anyone provide me with a reg that says basic cadets attending encampment must wear brown shirts and black shirts are only worn by staff.  I looked in 52-16, but it did not even contain the word black in it.  I also looked in 39-1 and could not find anything.  Thanks.

[Eclipse]

Can anyone provide me with a reg that says basic cadets attending encampment must wear brown shirts and black shirts are only worn by staff.  I looked in 52-16, but it did not even contain the word black in it.  I also looked in 39-1 and could not find anything.  Thanks.

Look harder, 39-1 specifies brown or black t-shirts with BDUs, and white or black with BBDUs, and neither it, nor 52-16 allows for anything else, therefore, if it doesn't say you can, you can't.

As we have to repeatedly remind people, the CAP regs are written in a way that indicated what is allowed, to the exclusion of all else.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Why do you need special hats or shirts? Isn't the grade insignia telling enough? You know a senior member when you see one. You know a cadet officer when you see one, too.

And each cadet should be intelligent enough to know who his or her flight commander is. If not, they shouldn't be going to an encampment.

I could see a different color hat for each cadet squadron (each flight would be too much, probably). But that's about it. You don't need different colors for senior members, cadet staff members or whatever -- their grade is clearly indicated on their uniforms, and that should be enough.

All this special bling just because someone's on "staff" is silly. It's reminiscent of a separate discussion about "wing staff" patches or rockers.

[Nathan]

Why do you need special hats or shirts? Isn't the grade insignia telling enough? You know a senior member when you see one. You know a cadet officer when you see one, too.

And each cadet should be intelligent enough to know who his or her flight commander is. If not, they shouldn't be going to an encampment.

I could see a different color hat for each cadet squadron (each flight would be too much, probably). But that's about it. You don't need different colors for senior members, cadet staff members or whatever -- their grade is clearly indicated on their uniforms, and that should be enough.

All this special bling just because someone's on "staff" is silly. It's reminiscent of a separate discussion about "wing staff" patches or rockers.

I'm usually the first to speak out against extra uniform bling, but I don't think that colored hats fit the definition of "bling" (they certainly don't look cooler than the BDU hat...).

Rather, keep in mind that the basics aren't the only ones who will have to know which staff are with which flight. As I mentioned earlier, I, as the C/CC for a rather large encampment, was faced with keeping over six flights and numerous support staff, along with senior member staff, straight in my head while at the same time running the encampment. It made my job tremendously easier when I could tell at a distance which flight was where simply by the color of the hat. And when I'm looking around for my 14 year old C/XO in a sea of other 14 year old basics, the black hat really made a difference.

In addition, keep in mind that a C/TSgt may be in charge of a C/CMSgt during an encampment. And there may be a C/SSgt support staff member. Grade, while useful, is not always the best way of telling who is ACTUALLY in charge at an encampment. And yes, while the cadets should probably know who their Flight Sergeant is, they won't necessarily know who is in charge of what, or, if they need ANY staff member (ie, they're lost), the colored hat can help.

Case in point, my second encampment was a region encampment, and I was a flight sergeant. Being the cocky C/SMSgt that I was, I saw a cadet apparently dawdling outside of the barracks when I had orders to get all basics into the barracks and prepared for in-processing. I called out, "Hey, cadet, where are you supposed to be? We need everyone inside the barracks in two minutes ago, and you're getting left behind!" He looks at me and say, "Oh. I'm your First Sergeant."

"Oh."

"Yeah."

"Mkay. Bye."

Colored hats prevent awkward moments, people! Don't become a victim!