Senior Members - College experience?

[Pace]

BS in Professional Aviation (Louisiana Tech University)
BSN (in progress)
MSN (CRNA - long term goal)

[DeputyDog]

Well would we be eligible if we have only an Associates? Or only a few college credits?

I looked through the site and couldn't find anything that addresses that. Generally, in order to be an officer in the Air Force, you already have to have a bachelor's degree. They will probably address the issue of CAP officers without bachelor's degrees being eligible for the Master's program as it gets closer to mid to early 2008 (although I doubt they would offer it to personnel without bachelor's degrees).

Would the Masters turn INTO an Associates or a Bachelors?

Most likely not. The program is accredited for master's degrees. Associate's and bachelor's degrees are fundamentally different from a master's degree (bachelor's degree is more generalized, while a master's degree is more specialized).

Or would those without a BS BA be forced to enroll in the current ACSC course?

I'd lay my money on that.

Also, those who already have a master's degree will be ineligible to enroll in the master's program. Which sucks....because I was planning on going through the master's program for ACSC. I will have my first master's degree this December. I guess I will go through the regular program.

My recommendation was:

1.  2 years of college/Associate degree, OR

2.  Completion of a trade school consisting of at least 900 clock hours duration., OR

3.  Private Pilot rating or higher.

Did you quote me by mistake?

[JohnKachenmeister]

by JohnKachenmeister
In college, and any other post-secondary educational endeavor, you are required to analyze the requirements to complete your course of study, come up with a plan to meet those requirements, execute the plan over a period of time, and monitor your progress toward that completion.  During the execution phase of that plan, you are required to complete several subordinate tasks, such as term paper, study for examinations, and organize all other life activities around completition of the education plan.  This develops time management skills, and an appreciation for deadlines.

These are all officer-related skills. 

True, and necessary for that  22 year old Officer candidate who just moved out on his own for the first time and is lacking any real world life experience.

For a CAP Officer???

I spent 8 years in the Infantry.  Went on to be a law enforcement officer where I have been for 10 years.  Ive done SWAT, Training Officer, SWAT-EMT, Dope and gang teams and am SWAT Instructor.  Ive been a Sheriff's Aircrew member for 3 years and now a Department Pilot Trainee.  I have a Commercial-Instrument Airplane rating along with a Private helicopter and glider rating.
Ive been in CAP for about 12 years (cadet time included) and served as a the Deputy Commander for Seniors, Deputy Commander for Cadets, ES and Leadership Officer.  Ive been on numerous SAR's as a Deputy Flight Officer and a couple as a CAP aircrew member.  I am a Transport Mission Pilot and in the CD program. I am now working towards my Mission Pilot qual.  Im 32 years old.   I own a house and have been married to the same woman for over 10 years and have 2 critters...not to mention a pretty darn good credit rating!

According to some of you and your "recommendations", I wouldn't or shouldnt be qualified to be a CAP officer? 

Gosh....If only I had a degree, maybe I could have been somebody.

Apparently, Bob, you didn't read my recommendations.

I recommended:

2 years of college toward a Bachelors,  OR

Associate Degree, OR

Trade school of 900 clock hours duration (If your basic police academy didn't quite qualify, your subsequent training would boost it up past 900 hours, I'm sure.) OR

Private pilot or higher  (You indicate you got that).

So chill.  I never said you were not qualified. 

But consider the guy who:

Finished high school.

Lived to be 21,

And that's all.

Do we want a guy like that running a unit, advising cadets, and representing us?  It is guys like that who give CAP about 90 percent of our problems.

So a 17 year old who completed his or her private pilot certificate would be good to go, but an experienced business owner without college or trade school is unworthy? 

I understand the desire for some sort of meaningful measure to be an officer, especially one who leads cadets or commands a unit, but there are numerous ways to acquire the necessary CAP officer skills.  Ultimately though, why do we need to be so exclusive?  There are plenty of successful, responsible people who would not meet those requirements; and plenty of knuckle-heads who would.

Maybe turning Level 1 training into something more meaningful would help reduce the knuckle-head ratio.  "Instant bling" for so many off the street folks is a serious goofball magnet. 

I have heard this "Straw man" arguement before.  Maybe there IS some guy out there who is some kind of genius who can get out of high school, and without any additional formal education or training start a business and make it run successfully.  I have never met any such person, and I certainly haven't seen any such people breaking down the doors of their local squadron, eager to join CAP.

We still have the requirement to be 21 to be an officer, but a 17-year old who can qualify as a pilot has to be pretty sharp in the skills that we need in officers.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Well would we be eligible if we have only an Associates? Or only a few college credits?

I looked through the site and couldn't find anything that addresses that. Generally, in order to be an officer in the Air Force, you already have to have a bachelor's degree. They will probably address the issue of CAP officers without bachelor's degrees being eligible for the Master's program as it gets closer to mid to early 2008 (although I doubt they would offer it to personnel without bachelor's degrees).

Would the Masters turn INTO an Associates or a Bachelors?

Most likely not. The program is accredited for master's degrees. Associate's and bachelor's degrees are fundamentally different from a master's degree (bachelor's degree is more generalized, while a master's degree is more specialized).

Or would those without a BS BA be forced to enroll in the current ACSC course?

I'd lay my money on that.

Also, those who already have a master's degree will be ineligible to enroll in the master's program. Which sucks....because I was planning on going through the master's program for ACSC. I will have my first master's degree this December. I guess I will go through the regular program.

My recommendation was:

1.  2 years of college/Associate degree, OR

2.  Completion of a trade school consisting of at least 900 clock hours duration., OR

3.  Private Pilot rating or higher.

Did you quote me by mistake?

I think so.

[JohnKachenmeister]

And... Wuzzafuzz, I agree with you that Level I needs to be more intense and meaningful.  I got flamed for that suggestion, too.

[Dragoon]

Reading and writing would be a start!

In college, and any other post-secondary educational endeavor, you are required to analyze the requirements to complete your course of study, come up with a plan to meet those requirements, execute the plan over a period of time, and monitor your progress toward that completion.  During the execution phase of that plan, you are required to complete several subordinate tasks, such as term paper, study for examinations, and organize all other life activities around completition of the education plan.  This develops time management skills, and an appreciation for deadlines.

These are all officer-related skills. 

As a RM officer, I agree with you.  As a CAP officer, I don't.

Because we don't expect all CAP officers to write well.   We don't require most CAP officers to write at all.   There are certain POSITIONS in CAP (like commander, personnel officer, and the guy who grades cadet SDAS) where writing/reading matters.  But those are positions, not grades.  You don't need to be a CAP officer to fill these positions.

It would make more sense to require college to fill those positions. ragardlesss of grade.

Now, if you wanted to change CAP to require, say only CAP "commissioned" officers to fill certain slots, you'd have a great argument in favor of requiring a mastery of the written word.

[SAR-EMT1]

Well regardless of college or no, everyone in CAP should know how to read write and speak coherently from high school.

And we should each have a copy of the Tongue and Quill (next to our 39-1)
IMHO

[chiles]

EMT-B School (expired)
BSN - RN with a focus on public health
MS - Master's in Integrated Homeland Security Management: Focus on Public Health Preparedness and Response (15/36 credits)

[JohnKachenmeister]

Reading and writing would be a start!

In college, and any other post-secondary educational endeavor, you are required to analyze the requirements to complete your course of study, come up with a plan to meet those requirements, execute the plan over a period of time, and monitor your progress toward that completion.  During the execution phase of that plan, you are required to complete several subordinate tasks, such as term paper, study for examinations, and organize all other life activities around completition of the education plan.  This develops time management skills, and an appreciation for deadlines.

These are all officer-related skills. 

As a RM officer, I agree with you.  As a CAP officer, I don't.

Because we don't expect all CAP officers to write well.   We don't require most CAP officers to write at all.   There are certain POSITIONS in CAP (like commander, personnel officer, and the guy who grades cadet SDAS) where writing/reading matters.  But those are positions, not grades.  You don't need to be a CAP officer to fill these positions.

It would make more sense to require college to fill those positions. ragardlesss of grade.

Now, if you wanted to change CAP to require, say only CAP "commissioned" officers to fill certain slots, you'd have a great argument in favor of requiring a mastery of the written word.

Dragoon:

"We don't expect CAP officers to write well?"

OK, maybe we don't.  That indicates to me a need to IMPROVE the quality of our officer force, and in so doing, improve our image and our perception to other organizations, such as the AF.

If we continue to accept mediocrity, we can never rise above that level.

[ddelaney103]

Reading and writing would be a start!

In college, and any other post-secondary educational endeavor, you are required to analyze the requirements to complete your course of study, come up with a plan to meet those requirements, execute the plan over a period of time, and monitor your progress toward that completion.  During the execution phase of that plan, you are required to complete several subordinate tasks, such as term paper, study for examinations, and organize all other life activities around completition of the education plan.  This develops time management skills, and an appreciation for deadlines.

These are all officer-related skills. 

As a RM officer, I agree with you.  As a CAP officer, I don't.

Because we don't expect all CAP officers to write well.   We don't require most CAP officers to write at all.   There are certain POSITIONS in CAP (like commander, personnel officer, and the guy who grades cadet SDAS) where writing/reading matters.  But those are positions, not grades.  You don't need to be a CAP officer to fill these positions.

It would make more sense to require college to fill those positions. ragardlesss of grade.

Now, if you wanted to change CAP to require, say only CAP "commissioned" officers to fill certain slots, you'd have a great argument in favor of requiring a mastery of the written word.

Dragoon:

"We don't expect CAP officers to write well?"

OK, maybe we don't.  That indicates to me a need to IMPROVE the quality of our officer force, and in so doing, improve our image and our perception to other organizations, such as the AF.

If we continue to accept mediocrity, we can never rise above that level.

I think what Dragoon is trying to point out is that a "CAP officer" is never required to hold a position that requires formal writing.

Again, this should be driven by the mission.  Since currently officers don't have to be commanders and commanders don't have to be officers, you can't justify additional officer training based on the commander's Mission Essential Task List (METL).

There are lots of great skills to have, but you have to justify it against the mission.  Mandate AWC for NB members?  Sure, but you have to justify why they need that knowledge and what you're going to do if no one with AWC volunteers to be the Wing King.  Either you force an AWC grad to command or you issue a waiver, which makes one wonder if they need AWC to command.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I'd stay away from words like "Never."

An officer that can't write a letter confirming arrangements developed at a meeting, or cannot write a statement in support of an investigation is an officer whose usefulness is very limited.  I have seen officers like this.

I support the idea of increasing educational requirements as a means of improving our officer force.  No, we don't need masters or phd's, but I don't think it is unreasonable to require some meaningful post-secondary schooling.  Writing skill is enhanced in college, but (from what I can see) appears to be virtually ignored in high school.

2 years of college, or 6 months of trade school, or some other course like pilot training is not unreasonable to demand.  Especially since we seem to be on track to establish an enlisted NCO force.

[mikeylikey]

Lets not forget ladies and gentleman, We have Officers here who can't seem to find the "SPELL-CHECK" button.  Face it, there is no standard to being a CAP Officer.  Other than the "never molested a child" clause.

[Stonewall]

Grrr....  In order for me to finish my bachelors degree, I have to take a pre-pre algebra class then pre-algebra then college algebra.  This, with like 3 other classes and I'll be done.  If I could find an accredited university that would look the other way or simply realize that I DO NOT NEED ALGEBRA, I'd be willing to pay $10,000 cash.

I've been in the security, protection and law enforcement career field for a long time now, in addition to my military experience.  16 years since I graduated high school and I have yet to find a need for algebra.  Why is it that a college deems it necessary for me to know something I will never use....grrrrrr....

I meet people every day who shock me with the fact that they have a bachelors degree.  Somehow they have the piece of paper and I don't.  I have seen resumes from people with masters degrees and they can't even spell or construct a sentence.  Really pi$$es me off.

[/rant]

PS:  Went to enroll in classes for next semester and was informed of my inability to do algebra, thus the [rant].

[afgeo4]

Lots of dum dums graduate college.

Great leaders, managers, and innovators like Bill Gates and Richard Branson didn't.


College does not a man make. (yes, I have a degree and yes, I'm in the former category)

[thefischNX01]

I think it's safe to say that we all agree that CAP's professional standards are lacking.  Improving them is something that I support whole-heartedly, however before one can move forward it is prudent to develop a framework from which to work.  Therefore, the most important thing is to develop a definition for a Civil Air Patrol professional. 

This definition should directly reflect the kinds of missions we perform, and expect to perform in the future.  Although I am biased, the definition provided by Samuel Huntington in "The Soldier and the State" should provide us with a good basis from which to work.  Huntington identifies 3 elements that constitute a military professional: Expertise, Responsibility and Corporateness.  Expertise is exactly what is sounds like: knowing your skill well enough to use it.  Responsibility is the responsibility of the officer to serve a public mission.   Corporateness is a broad espirit de corps that makes the member feel like, and identify with their organization. 

Based on this, we can surmise that our expertise is lacking; although our responsibility scores rather high and our corporateness is somewhere in the middle.  This allows us to narrow down the areas of focus to expertise and corporateness.  I'm not saying anything new here; but our professionalism needs to be improved with regards to our knowledge of our selected profession.  Depending on the member, it can be Emergency Services, Cadet Programs and/or Aerospace Education.  The interests of the member, coupled with the needs of the unit, determine which specialty the member chooses.  Although the specialty tracks work well at this level, many an officer lack a basic knowledge of the CAP.  This is where many want to improve the professional standards. 

It's the expertise clause that comes into play most often.  A CAP officer should have certain knowledge of military protocol such as how to wear the uniform, customs and courtesies and which forms to fill out.  CAP officers should have a basic understanding of how to effectively lead; and when it is time to follow.  A CAP officer should also be aware of national, their state (and perhaps even local) emergency response plans and how their squadron, group or wing fits into these plans.  If the officer has little interest in E.S. and has chosen to focus on cadet programs or aerospace education, a knowledge of knowing how to teach and lead young people is in order.  This alone would increase our expertise in our chosen field.  For some, this may require a college degree.  However, in Emergency Services it may not.  A 16-year firefighter should have intimate knowledge of ES on the local, and pretty good state-level knowledge as well.  If he does not have a degree from a university, why should he be turned away from officer status?

However, rather than look towards the military; maybe we should look towards the other uniformed services (NOAA Commissioned Corps and US Public Health Service) as they are a cadre of officers only and no enlisted or NCO grades.  Perhaps CAP should model it's standards and training from them.  It should be noted that both these services require a Bachelors Degree in a related field to their area of expertise.  Some police forces also require a college degree, such as the New Jersey State Police.  However, even they allow for military or other related work experience to be considered in lieu of not having that degree.  For CAP, a college degree may be preferred.  Yet, some sort of experience in a related field should be considered as an equivalent. 

(sorry for the rant...I just finished a college semester and have gotten used to writing a lot.)

[mikeylikey]

Grrr....  In order for me to finish my bachelors degree, I have to take a pre-pre algebra class then pre-algebra then college algebra. 

There is NO need for that class.  Colleges and Universities rely too heavily on that baseline course(s).  Where I went you had to take 2 semesters of Algebra, and pass with a  C or better.  Well, I suck at math.  It was the most difficult course I have ever taken.  If they want people to memorize formulas and therums, I suggest a baseline in statistics.  At least with a familiarity in Stats, you can figure out sports scores and junk like that.

College was a waste (education wise).  I have yet to put my degree(s) to use, the information presented has already become outdated.  I wish we could just pay all the cash upfront and buy our degrees without having to sit through classes.

Speaking of waste.....I never understood why they make you take physical fitness or health or art classes in school.  I was there to learn about Business my first time and Economics my second.  I wasted almost 1.5 years in General Education courses (Art, health, science etc.) when I could have concentrated more on my subject area. 

Bottom line, Colleges and Universities are businesses. They are only after one thing ($$$).  Why do you think it now takes 40 percent of all US students 4.5 years for a 4 year degree??  Answere.....More money from the student.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I think it's safe to say that we all agree that CAP's professional standards are lacking.  Improving them is something that I support whole-heartedly, however before one can move forward it is prudent to develop a framework from which to work.  Therefore, the most important thing is to develop a definition for a Civil Air Patrol professional. 

This definition should directly reflect the kinds of missions we perform, and expect to perform in the future.  Although I am biased, the definition provided by Samuel Huntington in "The Soldier and the State" should provide us with a good basis from which to work.  Huntington identifies 3 elements that constitute a military professional: Expertise, Responsibility and Corporateness.  Expertise is exactly what is sounds like: knowing your skill well enough to use it.  Responsibility is the responsibility of the officer to serve a public mission.   Corporateness is a broad espirit de corps that makes the member feel like, and identify with their organization. 

Based on this, we can surmise that our expertise is lacking; although our responsibility scores rather high and our corporateness is somewhere in the middle.  This allows us to narrow down the areas of focus to expertise and corporateness.  I'm not saying anything new here; but our professionalism needs to be improved with regards to our knowledge of our selected profession.  Depending on the member, it can be Emergency Services, Cadet Programs and/or Aerospace Education.  The interests of the member, coupled with the needs of the unit, determine which specialty the member chooses.  Although the specialty tracks work well at this level, many an officer lack a basic knowledge of the CAP.  This is where many want to improve the professional standards. 

It's the expertise clause that comes into play most often.  A CAP officer should have certain knowledge of military protocol such as how to wear the uniform, customs and courtesies and which forms to fill out.  CAP officers should have a basic understanding of how to effectively lead; and when it is time to follow.  A CAP officer should also be aware of national, their state (and perhaps even local) emergency response plans and how their squadron, group or wing fits into these plans.  If the officer has little interest in E.S. and has chosen to focus on cadet programs or aerospace education, a knowledge of knowing how to teach and lead young people is in order.  This alone would increase our expertise in our chosen field.  For some, this may require a college degree.  However, in Emergency Services it may not.  A 16-year firefighter should have intimate knowledge of ES on the local, and pretty good state-level knowledge as well.  If he does not have a degree from a university, why should he be turned away from officer status?

However, rather than look towards the military; maybe we should look towards the other uniformed services (NOAA Commissioned Corps and US Public Health Service) as they are a cadre of officers only and no enlisted or NCO grades.  Perhaps CAP should model it's standards and training from them.  It should be noted that both these services require a Bachelors Degree in a related field to their area of expertise.  Some police forces also require a college degree, such as the New Jersey State Police.  However, even they allow for military or other related work experience to be considered in lieu of not having that degree.  For CAP, a college degree may be preferred.  Yet, some sort of experience in a related field should be considered as an equivalent. 

(sorry for the rant...I just finished a college semester and have gotten used to writing a lot.)

It didn't come across as a rant, Fish.  I think your points are well taken.  I suggest some significant post-secondary education or training simply as a first step toward improving the officer corps of CAP.  The second step would be to improve and expand the initial training given to CAP members.  A formal Officer Training Course is called for.

For the record, I have never advocated a degree as a minimum for CAP officers. 

[SAR-EMT1]

I have two years towards a bachelors in History at a state university
EMT school,  and a year at a community college in Emergency Services...

I took an algebra class at the University, got a D
(needed a D+ to pass... something about standards)
took a remedial math class and got a D-   ... grrr

Took a Physics class for $350 at the University and got a D.
Took a Geology class for $150 at the Community College and got an A.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I flunked algebra in high school, and got by with bonehead math in college.

Then the police department assigned me to the traffic unit, and I had to become an accident reconstructionist.  Accident reconstruction is ALL higher-level math.

"Officer, just reduce the equation using the skills you learned in high school algebra."

"Easy for YOU to say!"

[James Shaw]

I took algebra online. My co-workers wife is a math teacher. She teaches Advanced Placement level stuff. She tutored me once a week for 2 hours. Worked out great. The book the school sent me also had 20 instructional CD's with mini videos to cover each section. This worked out perfectly. I could watch and practice at the same time. I still have the videos all 20.