Senior Members - College experience?

[Eclipse]

A writer is a writer, the genre isn't really relevent unless you're discussing whether his fictional framework has a basis in reality.

In this case, do you disagree with the assertion?

[Luis R. Ramos]

It was more in jest. But now that you put it I am making the connection.

That one (single) human be able to do all those things is fiction.That humans as a group should be able to do those things, yes. 

A person is never going to be able to do all those things in an adequate and correct manner.

Take for example you may excel at cooking, writing poems, balancing books. You put a wall up. What is a  wall to do without continuing to a house or other type of building? It would be no more than a lean-to sheltering you from the wind but not from a storm! And if you are not careful, it could be one that collapses on you just as you need it most...

Flyer

[Eclipse]

Like a lot of philosophy, I don't think that the list was in tended to be taken literally, but as a life's goal of diverse
abilities, we'd all be a lot better off if our young people today were able to do 1/2 those things.

I also don't think it's necessary to "excel" at everything, but be able to "do" is certainly important.

That's why, in general, I find it amusing / disappointing in disaster or other unexpected scenarios how quickly
the average Joe-6er collapses.  Odds are I'm preaching to the choir on this here, but to me most survival instincts,
especially short of Armageddon, seem like a natural progression of just being "capable of taking care of yourself" and
not being a burden to others (and hopefully being able to help others as well).

[Luis R. Ramos]

I agree with you when you put it as "being capable of taking care of yourself... not being a burden..." That should be what humans should strive to, without having lists...

Flyer

[Critical AOA]

Yes, it was written by a fiction writer but like so many works of fiction people quote it as gospel, just like the gospels themselves.  Some people are so fond of certain writers whether they are fiction writers or otherwise that they quote their writings as if they are words of wisdom from a higher power.  Might not be true in this case but who knows?  So, some of us who might disagree with what is in these quotes have as much of a right to disagree as the person quoting has a right to advocate the words. 

[Spaceman3750]

It seems to me that a quote from Lord of the Flies would be more apt on these boards... Who's Piggy today?

[Luis R. Ramos]

Unh?



Flyer

[Cliff_Chambliss]

Yes, it was written by a fiction writer but like so many works of fiction people quote it as gospel, just like the gospels themselves.  Some people are so fond of certain writers whether they are fiction writers or otherwise that they quote their writings as if they are words of wisdom from a higher power.  Might not be true in this case but who knows?  So, some of us who might disagree with what is in these quotes have as much of a right to disagree as the person quoting has a right to advocate the words.

Do I interpret science fiction as gospel?  absolutely not.  However, my perception is that there has been so much emphasis on education for education's sake over the years that we are in fact learning more and more about less and less. 

   In the mid 1960's one could read the classified ads looking for bookkeeping clerks and generally the requirements would be high school and college helpful.  By the time my daughter was finishing high school and looking at the acounting field a junior accountant doing basic bookkeeping needed a bachelor's degree to really be competitive. 

This is my perception:  Today I look and see basic accounting jobs with the responsibilities for bank reconciliations, general ledger maintenance, acounts payable/receivable and stated requirements are for advanced degrees and CPA helpful.  From 1965 to 2013 the basic job remains the same, but now it seems it takes college plus to train for the same skill set as high school bookkeeping did 50 years ago.

  In my day to day job I am the controller for an engineering/construction firm and also function as the human resources manager, and my wife owns a pet supplies business.  We both see job applicants for both summer as well as permanent jobs who can't write, or spell, and have very real problems doing simple arithmetic without a calculator.  The system is broken. 

So in quoting Mr. Henlein it is not as if I am saying his word is gospel, but that education and degrees for the sake of education and degrees is counter productive.  But, if a job or position requires a degree, make the degree specific to the requirement.  Above all, let us not lose sight that experience can often trump school.

[Eclipse]

+1 - far too much is expected in terms of "book learn'in" vs. experience.  The idea of the apprenticeship / Journeyman relationship is almost dead these days, and many college graduates enter the
real world very ill prepared for how life really works.

Yes, there are a number of professional careers which require specific and extended education, but there are far, far, FAR more that require a technical-level of baseline training and/or understanding
and then simply entering the workforce and "doing it" has more value then sitting in a classroom hearing about it.  This is especially true in the mid-range of occupations that the majority of the middle-class
workforce will spend the majority of their time in.

The problem we have today is that far too many people spend their lives at the ends of the pendulum instead of the middle - jobs which for years were considered "entry level" or "starter jobs" are not
considered long-term options (McDonald's and similar service work situations), while at the other end, kids spend years in school and spends thousands of dollars just to achieve an entry level job that
barely pays a living wage.

This is also evolving in the professional areas such as medicine and law, where more technicians paralegals, vs. MD's and lawyers, are increasingly doing the lion's share of the wrench-turning in these areas.
I believe law right now is also the number one field that people leave for "other" after ten years of school.

Bottom line is that there is potential value in all education and learning experiences, and students today need to be realistic about where they want to be and
what will really get them there.

As to quote - speculative science fiction, which is Heinlen's forte, is generally grounded in fact or reality and draws lines into technology, etc., which is already on someone's drawing board.
Starship Troopers, The Forever War, and even World War Z would fall into this category, as arguably could Star Trek.   These works have borne out significant foresight on the part of the
writers involved, at a spooky level sometimes.  And in most cases the creative people behind the works have significant personal experience in education, politics, or the military.  They work
in fiction because you can't write history until >after< it happens, but that doesn't make their points less relevent.

[SamFranklin]

It seems to me that a quote from Lord of the Flies would be more apt on these boards... Who's Piggy today?

For those who haven't read the book, Piggy was the intellectual on the island. He wasn't physically strong, nor coordinated, nor an effective "do-er", nor charismatic. In fact he was very weak in those areas, and so was the target of ridicule. But he was smart.

Piggy is dead. The mob killed him.

This whole thread is pretty casual so I don't want to make too much of nothing, but the most prevalent view of education expressed here has been vocational. Sure, it's important to get a good job. It's important to have a baseline of capabilities (Bob put that well). But for centuries, men of wealth pursued education purely for its own good. Learning for learning's sake, not as a means to some other end. The idea goes back to Socrates and probably even before that. I think we've lost a lot of respect for learning in our over-emphasis on training / baselines of technical ability / marketability in the workplace. And so, today, where's Piggy? Long dead.

ymmv

[Майор Хаткевич]

Apprenticeship is not dead. It is now called internship, and companies load up on desperate students who are willing to work for free, sometimes even after graduation HOPING it will lead to a position, or at least something to throw onto a resume.

[Private Investigator]

It seems to me that a quote from Lord of the Flies would be more apt on these boards... Who's Piggy today?

For those who haven't read the book, Piggy was the intellectual on the island. He wasn't physically strong, nor coordinated, nor an effective "do-er", nor charismatic. In fact he was very weak in those areas, and so was the target of ridicule. But he was smart.

Piggy is dead. The mob killed him.

Lord of the Flies was required reading when I was in HS. Exceptional story indeed   :clap:

[Private Investigator]

   In the mid 1960's one could read the classified ads looking for bookkeeping clerks and generally the requirements would be high school and college helpful.  By the time my daughter was finishing high school and looking at the acounting field a junior accountant doing basic bookkeeping needed a bachelor's degree to really be competitive. 

This is my perception:  Today I look and see basic accounting jobs with the responsibilities for bank reconciliations, general ledger maintenance, acounts payable/receivable and stated requirements are for advanced degrees and CPA helpful.  From 1965 to 2013 the basic job remains the same, but now it seems it takes college plus to train for the same skill set as high school bookkeeping did 50 years ago.

  In my day to day job I am the controller for an engineering/construction firm and also function as the human resources manager, and my wife owns a pet supplies business.  We both see job applicants for both summer as well as permanent jobs who can't write, or spell, and have very real problems doing simple arithmetic without a calculator.  The system is broken. 

So in quoting Mr. Henlein it is not as if I am saying his word is gospel, but that education and degrees for the sake of education and degrees is counter productive.  But, if a job or position requires a degree, make the degree specific to the requirement.  Above all, let us not lose sight that experience can often trump school.

Very good points. The education system is broke.

[Storm Chaser]

I wouldn't be opposed to setting some education requirements for CAP officers or even for promotions to certain ranks. I certainly would like to see more stringent requirements for promotion to 2d Lt, although not necessarily a bachelor's degree.

[46davis]

While I can sympathize with the desire to set high standards, I fail to see what a MA in basket weaving from Southcentral Georgia State Teacher's College would have to do with qualification to fly an airplane in an aviation organization.

I'm reminded of the scene in Gulliver's Travels where the candidates for public office were required to demonstrate proficiency in circus acts to get their positions. It's a commentary on how those without technical expertise who are selecting personnel take the easy way out of making qualitative decisions.
Remember that (Gen.) Chuck Yeager didn't have a college degree. He was made a pilot in the Army Air Corps when the need for people who could fly airplanes was greater than the need for an officers club where a degree was the requirement of membership.

I never finished college for a variety of reasons, most of them economic, but I can write, spell, reason and do basic math - in contrast with college graduates I encounter almost every day. The point I'm making is that people should be judged on their own merits instead of possession of a piece of paper that carries the same weight whether it's from Oxford or Podunk U.

BTW: I have an ATP, nine type ratings,  a CFII/ME, A&P, and 14,000 hours flying time. Would I qualify as an officer in CAP?

Yes, that's being a little facetious but I'm just making a point.  Would we deny someone the opportunity to make the fullest contribution because of an irrelevant qualification

Please guys: Let's remember the first word in our name is Civil. The second is Air. The third is Patrol. We're not soldiers. We're not cops. We're here to serve and contribute to public safety in any way that our individual talents and expertise allow us.

[Private Investigator]

You have good points indeed.

Welcome aboard CAP Talk and have fun   

[Critical AOA]

Please guys: Let's remember the first word in our name is Civil. The second is Air. The third is Patrol. We're not soldiers. We're not cops. We're here to serve and contribute to public safety in any way that our individual talents and expertise allow us.

Be careful.  There is a contingent on here that really wants to minimize the Civil & Air parts.  They want to take make the organization as militant as possible and as ground oriented as possible.

[Eclipse]

Somebody's channeling a banned user...

A to militancy and "ground orientated"? The former is who we are, a paramilitary auxiliary, and the latter is part of our mission. 

[bflynn]

a paramilitary auxiliary

except when it comes to uniforms and decorations   

[Devil Doc]

   In the mid 1960's one could read the classified ads looking for bookkeeping clerks and generally the requirements would be high school and college helpful.  By the time my daughter was finishing high school and looking at the acounting field a junior accountant doing basic bookkeeping needed a bachelor's degree to really be competitive. 

This is my perception:  Today I look and see basic accounting jobs with the responsibilities for bank reconciliations, general ledger maintenance, acounts payable/receivable and stated requirements are for advanced degrees and CPA helpful.  From 1965 to 2013 the basic job remains the same, but now it seems it takes college plus to train for the same skill set as high school bookkeeping did 50 years ago.

  In my day to day job I am the controller for an engineering/construction firm and also function as the human resources manager, and my wife owns a pet supplies business.  We both see job applicants for both summer as well as permanent jobs who can't write, or spell, and have very real problems doing simple arithmetic without a calculator.  The system is broken. 

So in quoting Mr. Henlein it is not as if I am saying his word is gospel, but that education and degrees for the sake of education and degrees is counter productive.  But, if a job or position requires a degree, make the degree specific to the requirement.  Above all, let us not lose sight that experience can often trump school.

Very good points. The education system is broke.

I have a Good Book About this, Great Read. It is called "The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America" by Charlotte Iserbyt