How to handle TRANSGENDER Cadet: biology or choice?

[Garibaldi]

Stay on topic, folks. I think insightful discourse can come from this thread, which is why I haven't shut it down yet. Ignore the inflammatory remarks and focus on the main points. If history teaches us anything, it's that the only constant is change. As society adapts legally, how will we make this work within our organization? What will it look like? Will it always be based on legal gender? Maybe. Will it require the designation of an additional bunking area? I do agree that we are jumping the shark a little, but if I had a transgendered cadet that raised these questions to me with their parents I know I would like the benefit of forethought that this thread enables. Please stay on topic so we don't have to shut this one down.

This is so very true. It's coming, and while it may not come on your watch, you have to decide how you're going to handle it if/when the time comes. It's going to go through a long, arduous process to make a coherent, cohesive policy, but think back to where we were not even 60 years ago with the civil rights movement. It was illegal to do a lot of things because of the color of your skin, something you had no more control over than you would if you were left or right handed. Speaking of, it was considered heretical to be left handed way back when. Look how far we've come as a society. There's going to be those who fight against it to their last breath and there will be some who shrug their shoulders, roll up their sleeves, and join the rest of the world, all the while wondering what the big deal was.

Like I said, focus on the mission, the rest of the puzzle will fix itself. Baby steps, folks.

[raivo]

As society adapts legally, how will we make this work within our organization? What will it look like? Will it always be based on legal gender? Maybe. Will it require the designation of an additional bunking area?

Hard to say, mainly because I don't think the psychiatry (psychology?) field is far enough along in that area yet. We've barely managed to start figuring out transgender issues for adults, let alone adolescents.

[Майор Хаткевич]

No further responses from me will be forthcoming. Any PMs on the subject from you will be reported to the moderator as harassing and intolerant.

I dont care what side of the argument you are on... that was just silly.  Welcome to the internet age where people can be harassed by PMs they dont have to open.

Hey, I caught an IG complaint like that one time.

[SouthernCross]

"Sure, the CD officer has to be someone with a theological degree,"

Perhaps that was the case way back then. Not anymore (see CAPR 265-1).

[RNOfficer]

If there was a cadet who was an open trans anything in our squadron my family would withdraw.

How can CAP teach Christian moral values and allow something against natural law at the same time?

Secondly IMO a young person who believes he or she is a different sex is misguided and adults have an obligation to give them proper guidance.

It's not the CAP's place to teach "Christan moral values"

Further, as has been stated several times, this thread refers to the transgendered not transsexuals.

[RNOfficer]

CAP has no business either endorsing or restricting, promoting or suppressing, or even discussing sexual identity with minor children during their developmental phases.

Of course the CAP has not business endorsing or promotion sexual identity. However, if transgendered cadets are admitted (and they will have to be at least in California), then there will have to be discussion with the cadets, if only to avoid harassment.

As for relevance of official diagnosis, being transgender itself is not a mental disorder according to the  American Psychiatric Association.

I am not a physician so I defer to expert opinion on the subject.

[Spam]

Of course the CAP has not business endorsing or promotion sexual identity. However, if transgendered cadets are admitted (and they will have to be at least in California), then there will have to be discussion with the cadets, if only to avoid harassment.

Bull.

I don't interview my cadets currently on their sexual preferences or inclinations currently, nor would I have any need to do so in the future to ensure that we comply with CPP provisions - for any variant of human.

I think you're waving a danger flag where none really exists, Major.

Cheers
Spam

[raivo]

I don't interview my cadets currently on their sexual preferences or inclinations currently, nor would I have any need to do so in the future to ensure that we comply with CPP provisions - for any variant of human.

To be fair, CAP and other organizations that put people into locker/barracks-room type situations have a challenge here that most organizations don't, in that someone's transgender status has a much higher potential to become known. (I haven't been to an encampment/NCSA in about 13 years, so I'm not sure how much has changed, but I see FLWG still has encampments at Tyndall and at Camp Blanding so I'm guessing not too much.) Transgender individuals can often pass unquestioned as their identified gender in most everyday situations - which is not a guaranteed thing in that kind of low-privacy environment. I can easily see someone's transgender status becoming an issue that needs addressing to some degree by senior members, simply by virtue of becoming known.

Also, Google probably now thinks I'm questioning my gender identity based on my search history from today.

[Panzerbjorn]

So you would be OK with a transvestite 6' 2" 5:00 shadow deep voice with heels and a blond wig helping your 13 year old son develop Core Values? Do you want your 14 year old daughter to spend all week a group of college aged female cadets who believe they are men?  What a joke. I don't want my family anywhere near that type of perversion.

My single attempt to give a rational response to an irrational statement and individual...

As long as that 6'2" transvestite conforms with CAPR 39-1 and our grooming standards, I don't see the problem.  If that person is teaching the Core Values as laid out by CAP then they're not teaching any perversion.  It also should be pointed out that CAP doesn't provide a platform to stage a drag or burlesque show at cadet meetings.  So, I really think your concern is truly for naught.

As far as your other concern of teaching Christian values, perhaps you'd be more comfortable in the Boy Scouts if that is your primary concern.

I realize CAP is not advertising to have a Tuesday night drag show after the pledge of allegiance but allowing openly transgender or transvestite people this is what we are accepting. It could very well be that we have a man dressed as a woman who is working with boys or a girl being with a group of older girl cadets who identity as male.

I don't know about you, but I'm not checking what kind of underwear anyone is wearing under their uniform.  There are already policies in place for cadet protection, and a trans-anything is under the same regulations that everyone else is.  It's called equality.  If you look in CAPR 39-1, you'll notice that high heels aren't authorized to be worn with BDUs.  It's a uniform, not a fashion show.  So, it's a little difficult for a transvestite to be an openly transvestite at a cadet meeting.  I've also been in CAP for over ten years now, been around the block quite a bit, and have yet to meet a transvestite in the ranks.  So, there either aren't any, or they're not openly being one while involved in the program.  Either case should satisfy your concerns.

I have known several transgendered and transsexual individuals in my lifetime, and not a single one of them has preached to me and encouraged me to become one myself.  Frankly, they're not interested in recruiting.  So, perhaps that will put your mind at ease.  My hunch is that is that you too have probably known a few but Caitlyn Jenner is the only one you actually were ever aware of.  Transgendered individuals go about life being the gender they have identified/reassigned with and simply want to be treated as such.  They don't want to go around telling people that they used to be this and now they're that.  So your fears of some drag queen walking into your cadet meeting and trying to recruit your 14-year old daughter is really quite silly and irrational.

Like others have said, if you're truly uncomfortable at the extremely remote prospect that some transvestite is going to influence your teenaged daughter and lure her into the woods to turn her into a transsexual, then you are under no obligation to stay in this organization.

[NIN]

You guys are making my head hurt.

As Ned previously stated: "Current CAP policy is to use the 'legal gender' of the member, based on the state of residence."  Therefore, ANY discussion of "transvestites" is so totally moot as to be specious and silly.  A "transvestite" is a person of one sex who dresses as the other sex.   This is unlike "transgendered" or the more loaded "transsexual" terms.  "Transvestite" is no more "transgendered" than a "transmission" is.  Get your terms right.

As a male in a very real and legally binding sense (its on my membership paperwork, my DD-214, driver's license, etc), I cannot show up to a meeting dressed (even 39-1-compliant) as a female just because I have a predilection for that very slimming Shade 1520 AF Blue skirt.  5 o'clock shadow or otherwise. (honestly: Its the eye makeup that I can't abide by).  My commander would be correctly within the policy to tell me I should go home and change (and take off that eye makeup)

Similarly, if a young man who is "transgendered" shows up to my squadron wanting to join CAP, and his legal sex is still listed as male, hey, sorry man, but you're getting a male uniform, and you're staying in the male barracks at encampment. Thats the policy.

As to all this other crap. Well, frankly, I'm astonished.

[NIN]

Of course the CAP has not business endorsing or promotion sexual identity. However, if transgendered cadets are admitted (and they will have to be at least in California), then there will have to be discussion with the cadets, if only to avoid harassment.

Bull.

I don't interview my cadets currently on their sexual preferences or inclinations currently, nor would I have any need to do so in the future to ensure that we comply with CPP provisions - for any variant of human.

I think you're waving a danger flag where none really exists, Major.

Not quite.  Although I think the percentages are so limited that we're making quite the tempest in a teapot here.

Last fall or spring, my unit had a young lady join CAP who felt she was transgender.  She kept her hair "male short," etc.  One of her very first questions, and one that set the seniors alight with discussion, was her request to wear male uniforms.  The DCC and the commander sat down with her and her parents and had a frank discussion about the policy.  (I was peripherally involved since I "know about National." Righhht!)   The bottom line was: she is a female on her birth certificate, non drivers ID card, etc.  Unless and until she undergoes some sort of gender reassignment and has her gender legally changed, she's still a female and therefore would be treated as such for the purposes of uniforms and billeting.

It was utterly a moot point because, kind of as I expected, CAP didn't really appeal to her like she expected it would.  She was a rather immediate first term loss.

[Brit_in_CAP]

"Sure, the CD officer has to be someone with a theological degree,"

Perhaps that was the case way back then. Not anymore (see CAPR 265-1).

Correct.  Many CDIs do come to the role as part of their "ministry", and equally as many do not.  I'm a CDI in the former category.  I thoroughly enjoy my work and I'm quite content to work within the restrictions that are necessarily and rightly placed upon me.  Challenging and enjoyable!

As a point of history, CDIs (MLOs as they were) were never *required* to have a degree in theology; the standard was (IIRC) 60 semester hours post-secondary education.  The idea of them being demi Chaplains died very early on!

Back to your schedule program, currently in progress!

[THRAWN]

You guys are making my head hurt.

As Ned previously stated: "Current CAP policy is to use the 'legal gender' of the member, based on the state of residence."  Therefore, ANY discussion of "transvestites" is so totally moot as to be specious and silly.  A "transvestite" is a person of one sex who dresses as the other sex.   This is unlike "transgendered" or the more loaded "transsexual" terms.  "Transvestite" is no more "transgendered" than a "transmission" is.  Get your terms right.

As a male in a very real and legally binding sense (its on my membership paperwork, my DD-214, driver's license, etc), I cannot show up to a meeting dressed (even 39-1-compliant) as a female just because I have a predilection for that very slimming Shade 1520 AF Blue skirt.  5 o'clock shadow or otherwise. (honestly: Its the eye makeup that I can't abide by).  My commander would be correctly within the policy to tell me I should go home and change (and take off that eye makeup)

Similarly, if a young man who is "transgendered" shows up to my squadron wanting to join CAP, and his legal sex is still listed as male, hey, sorry man, but you're getting a male uniform, and you're staying in the male barracks at encampment. Thats the policy.

As to all this other crap. Well, frankly, I'm astonished.

And that policy can be found where? I asked a bit earlier on in the thread. It's not in the regulation concerning membership, and it's not in the nondiscrimination policy.

[JeffDG]

You guys are making my head hurt.

As Ned previously stated: "Current CAP policy is to use the 'legal gender' of the member, based on the state of residence."  Therefore, ANY discussion of "transvestites" is so totally moot as to be specious and silly.  A "transvestite" is a person of one sex who dresses as the other sex.   This is unlike "transgendered" or the more loaded "transsexual" terms.  "Transvestite" is no more "transgendered" than a "transmission" is.  Get your terms right.

As a male in a very real and legally binding sense (its on my membership paperwork, my DD-214, driver's license, etc), I cannot show up to a meeting dressed (even 39-1-compliant) as a female just because I have a predilection for that very slimming Shade 1520 AF Blue skirt.  5 o'clock shadow or otherwise. (honestly: Its the eye makeup that I can't abide by).  My commander would be correctly within the policy to tell me I should go home and change (and take off that eye makeup)

Similarly, if a young man who is "transgendered" shows up to my squadron wanting to join CAP, and his legal sex is still listed as male, hey, sorry man, but you're getting a male uniform, and you're staying in the male barracks at encampment. Thats the policy.

As to all this other crap. Well, frankly, I'm astonished.

And that policy can be found where? I asked a bit earlier on in the thread. It's not in the regulation concerning membership, and it's not in the nondiscrimination policy.

I would concur with you.  If there is a "policy" it has been rather poorly communicated from the echelons above reality to the local level where actual decisions are made.

[Storm Chaser]

You guys are making my head hurt.

As Ned previously stated: "Current CAP policy is to use the 'legal gender' of the member, based on the state of residence."  Therefore, ANY discussion of "transvestites" is so totally moot as to be specious and silly.  A "transvestite" is a person of one sex who dresses as the other sex.   This is unlike "transgendered" or the more loaded "transsexual" terms.  "Transvestite" is no more "transgendered" than a "transmission" is.  Get your terms right.

As a male in a very real and legally binding sense (its on my membership paperwork, my DD-214, driver's license, etc), I cannot show up to a meeting dressed (even 39-1-compliant) as a female just because I have a predilection for that very slimming Shade 1520 AF Blue skirt.  5 o'clock shadow or otherwise. (honestly: Its the eye makeup that I can't abide by).  My commander would be correctly within the policy to tell me I should go home and change (and take off that eye makeup)

Similarly, if a young man who is "transgendered" shows up to my squadron wanting to join CAP, and his legal sex is still listed as male, hey, sorry man, but you're getting a male uniform, and you're staying in the male barracks at encampment. Thats the policy.

As to all this other crap. Well, frankly, I'm astonished.

And that policy can be found where? I asked a bit earlier on in the thread. It's not in the regulation concerning membership, and it's not in the nondiscrimination policy.

It doesn't have to be. If one is legally a male or female, then the law prevails (whether we like it or not). You want to be treated like the opposite gender, then go through the proper legal process to make that change.

[NIN]

And that policy can be found where? I asked a bit earlier on in the thread. It's not in the regulation concerning membership, and it's not in the nondiscrimination policy.

Not sure. I've been told by a National Staff Officer (*cough* Nedly!) that the question had come up and thus far the "official policy" was as he stated.

I suppose that its probably one of those "doesn't come up often, so its not made its way into the regs yet" kind of things.

[Mitchell 1969]

Of course the CAP has not business endorsing or promotion sexual identity. However, if transgendered cadets are admitted (and they will have to be at least in California), then there will have to be discussion with the cadets, if only to avoid harassment.

Bull.

I don't interview my cadets currently on their sexual preferences or inclinations currently, nor would I have any need to do so in the future to ensure that we comply with CPP provisions

http://youtu.be/eeNsPE5XUXA

[Ned]

Not sure. I've been told by a National Staff Officer (*cough* Nedly!) that the question had come up and thus far the "official policy" was as he stated.

I suppose that its probably one of those "doesn't come up often, so its not made its way into the regs yet" kind of things.

The actual sequence was something like this:

1941 - 2013:  No official policy on transgender members.  It just didn't seem to come up, and if it did it was handled locally by seasoned CP officers and commanders.

2014:  Several cadets self-identified as transgender and asked appropriate questions about things like uniforms, billeting, PT standards, etc.  The National Commander convened a pretty high-power committee composed of SMEs and stakeholders (including senior commanders, parents, cadets, chaplain, and old-hand CP types) which produced a report that recommended the "legal gender" position, which was subsequently considered and adopted by the senior leadership.  It then became "official policy," with guidance to staff to respond to questions from the field.  Staff was also directed to figure out where to include the policy in our regulations.  Since the committee and surrounding discussions were focused on CP, our initial thought was to put it into the 52-16 and maybe the 52-10.

2015:  As part of that discussion, follow-on questions developed as to whether this really was a "CP-centric" or full membership policy.  If it was a full membership policy, it probably belongs in our non-discrimination and membership regulations, not a CP publication.  While that discussion was active in staff channels, the National Commander appointed a different committee with a slightly different mandate to examine the issues on a membership-wide basis.  That committee is still actively working the issues, plus CP continues to research contemporary best practices among other youth organizations to see how they handle the issue.

So, the official "legal gender" policy is not yet included in our regulations or other publications; probably until the current committee makes recommendations and the command group directs the staff as to which publications the policy should be included.

The KB idea is a good one.  Let me see if I can make that happen.

[Chappie]

Preparing to be "burned at the stake"

As a CAP Chaplain, here is the course of action that I would recommend to my commander or any one in the unit with questions:

1) seek out the Wing legal advice/counsel;

2) brush up on the policies/regulations regarding membership in CAP;

3) follow the Core Values of CAP.

These are items that govern our conduct within a secular/pluralistic environment.   A CAP Chaplain, according to the CAPR 265-2 "Covenant and Code of Ethics", basically is a defender of the First Amendment rights of all members and is a provider of ministry (service) to all members of CAP and their families. 

There may be some complexities here when it comes to legal matters or how to facilitate matters...but for me is a simple mindset.  My role is to assist the commander in making the best decision on behalf of that member and this organization -- that is where our policies/regs/and Core Values come in.

[THRAWN]

Not sure. I've been told by a National Staff Officer (*cough* Nedly!) that the question had come up and thus far the "official policy" was as he stated.

I suppose that its probably one of those "doesn't come up often, so its not made its way into the regs yet" kind of things.

The actual sequence was something like this:

1941 - 2013:  No official policy on transgender members.  It just didn't seem to come up, and if it did it was handled locally by seasoned CP officers and commanders.

2014:  Several cadets self-identified as transgender and asked appropriate questions about things like uniforms, billeting, PT standards, etc.  The National Commander convened a pretty high-power committee composed of SMEs and stakeholders (including senior commanders, parents, cadets, chaplain, and old-hand CP types) which produced a report that recommended the "legal gender" position, which was subsequently considered and adopted by the senior leadership.  It then became "official policy," with guidance to staff to respond to questions from the field.  Staff was also directed to figure out where to include the policy in our regulations.  Since the committee and surrounding discussions were focused on CP, our initial thought was to put it into the 52-16 and maybe the 52-10.

2015:  As part of that discussion, follow-on questions developed as to whether this really was a "CP-centric" or full membership policy.  If it was a full membership policy, it probably belongs in our non-discrimination and membership regulations, not a CP publication.  While that discussion was active in staff channels, the National Commander appointed a different committee with a slightly different mandate to examine the issues on a membership-wide basis.  That committee is still actively working the issues, plus CP continues to research contemporary best practices among other youth organizations to see how they handle the issue.

So, the official "legal gender" policy is not yet included in our regulations or other publications; probably until the current committee makes recommendations and the command group directs the staff as to which publications the policy should be included.

The KB idea is a good one.  Let me see if I can make that happen.

So, officially, there is no "official" policy. In the interim, is there a chance of something in the form of a written order from the NC to all subordinate commanders that until such time a regulatory policy is adopted, that the "legal gender" of the member be used as the decision point? Which brings up another question: what is the "legal gender"? Is it what appears on the license/state issued ID? If so, there are some states where that can be changed and it does not have to match what is on other "legally acceptable" documents.... Or is it the gender indicated on the birth certificate, which can also be changed...

Sick of me yet?