How to handle TRANSGENDER Cadet: biology or choice?

[THRAWN]

You do realize that a "male candidate who was undergoing hormonal therapy with or without genital surgical modifications" is not a "transvestite" any more than he's a "penguin," right?

There is a substantial difference between a "transgender male" or "transsexual male" as you describe, and a "transvestite."  The comedian Eddie Izzard is the latter (or, as he likes to put it, "an executive transvestite")

But does he have a flag?

[Garibaldi]

You do realize that a "male candidate who was undergoing hormonal therapy with or without genital surgical modifications" is not a "transvestite" any more than he's a "penguin," right?

There is a substantial difference between a "transgender male" or "transsexual male" as you describe, and a "transvestite."  The comedian Eddie Izzard is the latter (or, as he likes to put it, "an executive transvestite")

But does he have a flag?

Transvestites are ones with predilections to dress in...well, dresses. Kinda like Klinger was in MASH, but his shtick was dressing in dresses to get out of the army, not as part of any kind of gender identity issue. Milton Berle dressed in dresses for comedic effect. Tom Hanks and Peter Scolari dressed as women in Bosom Buddies (80s sitcom) in order to secure an apartment exclusively for female tenants.

Transgender are physically male or female and identify as opposite. They have not yet undergone reassignment surgery.

Transsexuals are ones who have undergone gender reassignment surgery and are for all intents and purposes physically, and psychologically the opposite gender from what they were born.

[NIN]

But does he have a flag?

I suppose. He's from Europe. Thats where the history comes from.

[RNOfficer]

In the case of other military cadets, are the Military Academies accepting a transvestitive wearing of the uniform?

Do you mean "transsexual," "transgendered," or "transvestite?"

Because they are all different things.  I'm pretty sure my penchant to dress in female uniforms in my off time (relax, I don't have one) doesn't parley well toward on-duty time, unless I have a need to identify as a different sex (which I don't).

Of course as the Colonel has previously pointed out, this thread deals with the TRANSGENDERED

As for the military academies.

This source states it it under review and change is expected soon

http://militarypartners.org/huge-pentagon-readying-plan-to-lift-transgender-military-ban/

This source states the ban will end in May 2016

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/08/25/military-transgender-ban-set-end-next-may/32345385/

Not relevant to CAP but no doubt of interest to readers of this thread.

[RNOfficer]

For those interested in the transgendered in the US military, here are some sources. I've tried to keep them balanced.

http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/Transgender-Military-Service-May-2014.pdf

http://www.frc.org/pressrelease/family-research-council-urges-pentagon-to-focus-on-readiness-not-a-transgender-policy

http://www.navytimes.com/story/military/pentagon/2015/07/18/transgender-troops-policy-change-raises-many-questions/30256249/

http://www.airforcetimes.com/story/military/2015/06/05/transgender-airman-praises-policy/28554781/

http://www.armytimes.com/story/military/pentagon/2015/11/01/jblm-transgender-soldier-endures-wait-for-army-reforms/74997360/

http://www.politico.com/story/2015/07/jim-inhofe-opposes-transgender-troops-military-bathroom-120418


None of this is directly relevant to the CAP, of course, but I'm certain many readers of this board would be interested.

[ALORD]

You do realize that a "male candidate who was undergoing hormonal therapy with or without genital surgical modifications" is not a "transvestite" any more than he's a "penguin," right?

There is a substantial difference between a "transgender male" or "transsexual male" as you describe, and a "transvestite."  The comedian Eddie Izzard is the latter (or, as he likes to put it, "an executive transvestite")

Nin,

A male who wears women's clothes is not necessarily a "Transvestite"  either. You are being silly. The question goes to whether men are being allowed to wear women's uniforms in the Service Academies, not as part of some Yale-like, homoerotic "skull and bones" society thing, but because they are men....and they want to wear women's clothes! Their status in the color spectrum of the LGBT world is irrelevant, even if they are penguins. Secondly, men who are taking female hormones ( Or male Hormones for that matter) incur an enormous amount of health risk, and the emotional lability that these Hormones can cause, would be an absolute catastrophe in a high stress environment. Even conventional "Hormone Replacement" therapy for post-menopausal women ( And again, occasionally in men as well, although this is only arguably therapeutic in men) usually has a significant number of side effects and potential longer term health risks. In the case of a pre-op transsexuals, most doctors will require the patient live as their desired gender and in many cases take hormones for some time before allowing surgical alteration. It is not readily reversible. Many change their mind, some kill themselves, some cannot find funding for an elective procedure that is medically unethical at worst, and surgical mutilation at best. In the case of any person in a Service Academy taking dangerous, elective medications, or submitting to elective, dangerous, and life-altering  surgical procedures would be unwise. If Uncle Sam gets his shorts in a bunch about some kid from Alabama with a rebel flag tattoo, or some Goth-kid getting his tongue forked or earlobes mutilated, how then should (He) view these "new" issues? Regardless how how the DSM bows to political-correctness, men who want to dress up as women, or become surgically and chemically altered to "Change their sex" ( Which of course is not actually possible) it is clear that many people in these discussed categories suffer from very deep and severe personality and identity issues.

[raivo]

I have no idea what point you're trying to make.

[RNOfficer]

Regardless how how the DSM bows to political-correctness, men who want to dress up as women, or become surgically and chemically altered to "Change their sex" ( Which of course is not actually possible) it is clear that many people in these discussed categories suffer from very deep and severe personality and identity issues.

As I stated in the OP,  the FAA no longer includes transgender as a "mental illness"

http://blogs.mprnews.org/newscut/2016/01/to-faa-transgender-pilots-no-longer-have-a-mental-illness/

[Spam]

Regardless how how the DSM bows to political-correctness, men who want to dress up as women, or become surgically and chemically altered to "Change their sex" ( Which of course is not actually possible) it is clear that many people in these discussed categories suffer from very deep and severe personality and identity issues.

As I stated in the OP,  the FAA no longer includes transgender as a "mental illness"

http://blogs.mprnews.org/newscut/2016/01/to-faa-transgender-pilots-no-longer-have-a-mental-illness/

Which seems as irrelevant to his points.  Trying to "wish away" the significant suicide and self injurious behavior rate of people who self identify with these issues by pointing to a federal agencies political decision to not classify the problem as an illness doesn't really address it. (There are enormous side discussions to be had on blanket approval of a population with documented increased suicidal tendencies as licensed pilots, but that isn't relevant to your original point of handling cadet membership, either, whether you accept that these behaviors are deviations from a wide norm or not).

The entire issue of how DoD is struggling with the issue for adult recruits is largely irrelevant compared to our need to provide a cadet program for minors who are still legally children (in all 50 states) and who are still in their formative years of development. 

CAP has no business either endorsing or restricting, promoting or suppressing, or even discussing sexual identity with minor children during their developmental phases.  Sorry, RNOfficer, I know you may think this is part of a CAP health services mission (a guess on my part, only based on reading your past posts), and I appreciate your interest in serving the members from your point of view, but I'd disagree as much as I disagreed with one of my Chaplains once who thought he'd use CAP to push his faith on cadets.  Not part of our mission.

V/R
Spam

[Spam]

TOP... men

FTFY, in case anybody was confused

Keeping with the lighter notes...

Go Porkins! (William Hootkins)!

http://www.dorkly.com/post/69741/awesome-actors-you-didnt-realize-were-in-everything-you-like

V/R
Spam

[THRAWN]

TOP... men

FTFY, in case anybody was confused

I was not.

[lordmonar]

CAP has no business either endorsing or restricting, promoting or suppressing, or even discussing sexual identity with minor children during their developmental phases.  Sorry, RNOfficer, I know you may think this is part of a CAP health services mission (a guess on my part, only based on reading your past posts), and I appreciate your interest in serving the members from your point of view, but I'd disagree as much as I disagreed with one of my Chaplains once who thought he'd use CAP to push his faith on cadets.  Not part of our mission.

V/R
Spam

I agree. 

Hence the quite logical stance of CAP to leave the definitions and identification up to the states.
You are a boy or a girl base on what ever legal government issued documents say you are.

CAP will not be endorsing, restricting or promoting anything.

[bluehoodie]

If there was a cadet who was an open trans anything in our squadron my family would withdraw.

How can CAP teach Christian moral values and allow something against natural law at the same time?

Secondly IMO a young person who believes he or she is a different sex is misguided and adults have an obligation to give them proper guidance.

[Garibaldi]

If there was a cadet who was an open trans anything in our squadron my family would withdraw.

How can CAP teach Christian moral values and allow something against natural law at the same time?

Secondly IMO a young person who believes he or she is a different sex is misguided and adults have an obligation to give them proper guidance.

Begging your pardon, but it is not CAP's place to teach "Christian moral values." If you feel you have that much of an obligation to "give them proper guidance" because they are "misguided" then I suggest you have options other than a non-denominational non-religious non-exclusive organization such as ours.

Good luck to you!

[FW]

CAP has no business either endorsing or restricting, promoting or suppressing, or even discussing sexual identity with minor children during their developmental phases.  Sorry, RNOfficer, I know you may think this is part of a CAP health services mission (a guess on my part, only based on reading your past posts), and I appreciate your interest in serving the members from your point of view, but I'd disagree as much as I disagreed with one of my Chaplains once who thought he'd use CAP to push his faith on cadets.  Not part of our mission.

V/R
Spam

I agree. 


Hence the quite logical stance of CAP to leave the definitions and identification up to the states.
You are a boy or a girl base on what ever legal government issued documents say you are.

CAP will not be endorsing, restricting or promoting anything.

If there was a cadet who was an open trans anything in our squadron my family would withdraw.

How can CAP teach Christian moral values and allow something against natural law at the same time?

Secondly IMO a young person who believes he or she is a different sex is misguided and adults have an obligation to give them proper guidance.

And here we have the divergence that makes for colorful discussion on CAPTalk.... 

Just to make things clear; CAP develops young leaders within our "Core Values".  "We" do not teach our cadets, nor do we impose our personal beliefs on them.  The value of "respect" is expected for all of us.  I understand the discomfort (of some) to deal with the "different", and I understand the passion of those of fundamentalist belief,  however, IMHO,  the expression of such should be left at home; not taken to your unit. 

[bluehoodie]

CAP has no business either endorsing or restricting, promoting or suppressing, or even discussing sexual identity with minor children during their developmental phases.  Sorry, RNOfficer, I know you may think this is part of a CAP health services mission (a guess on my part, only based on reading your past posts), and I appreciate your interest in serving the members from your point of view, but I'd disagree as much as I disagreed with one of my Chaplains once who thought he'd use CAP to push his faith on cadets.  Not part of our mission.

V/R
Spam

I agree. 


Hence the quite logical stance of CAP to leave the definitions and identification up to the states.
You are a boy or a girl base on what ever legal government issued documents say you are.

CAP will not be endorsing, restricting or promoting anything.

If there was a cadet who was an open trans anything in our squadron my family would withdraw.

How can CAP teach Christian moral values and allow something against natural law at the same time?

Secondly IMO a young person who believes he or she is a different sex is misguided and adults have an obligation to give them proper guidance.

And here we have the divergence that makes for colorful discussion on CAPTalk.... 

Just to make things clear; CAP develops young leaders within our "Core Values".  "We" do not teach our cadets, nor do we impose our personal beliefs on them.  The value of "respect" is expected for all of us.  I understand the discomfort (of some) to deal with the "different", and I understand the passion of those of fundamentalist belief,  however, IMHO,  the expression of such should be left at home; not taken to your unit.

So you would be OK with a transvestite 6' 2" 5:00 shadow deep voice with heels and a blond wig helping your 13 year old son develop Core Values? Do you want your 14 year old daughter to spend all week a group of college aged female cadets who believe they are men?  What a joke. I don't want my family anywhere near that type of perversion.

[Garibaldi]

CAP has no business either endorsing or restricting, promoting or suppressing, or even discussing sexual identity with minor children during their developmental phases.  Sorry, RNOfficer, I know you may think this is part of a CAP health services mission (a guess on my part, only based on reading your past posts), and I appreciate your interest in serving the members from your point of view, but I'd disagree as much as I disagreed with one of my Chaplains once who thought he'd use CAP to push his faith on cadets.  Not part of our mission.

V/R
Spam

I agree. 


Hence the quite logical stance of CAP to leave the definitions and identification up to the states.
You are a boy or a girl base on what ever legal government issued documents say you are.

CAP will not be endorsing, restricting or promoting anything.

If there was a cadet who was an open trans anything in our squadron my family would withdraw.

How can CAP teach Christian moral values and allow something against natural law at the same time?

Secondly IMO a young person who believes he or she is a different sex is misguided and adults have an obligation to give them proper guidance.

And here we have the divergence that makes for colorful discussion on CAPTalk.... 

Just to make things clear; CAP develops young leaders within our "Core Values".  "We" do not teach our cadets, nor do we impose our personal beliefs on them.  The value of "respect" is expected for all of us.  I understand the discomfort (of some) to deal with the "different", and I understand the passion of those of fundamentalist belief,  however, IMHO,  the expression of such should be left at home; not taken to your unit.

So you would be OK with a transvestite 6' 2" 5:00 shadow deep voice with heels and a blond wig helping your 13 year old son develop Core Values? Do you want your 14 year old daughter to spend all week a group of college aged female cadets who believe they are men?  What a joke. I don't want my family anywhere near that type of perversion.

There's the door. Don't let it hit you where the Good Lord split you on the way out. This is the type of attitude we are trying to stop. Thank you for your service to CAP, inc. and we will be sorry (not) to see you go. For your information, more "perversion" is committed by male seniors against male cadets than any gay/trans/bi against the unwilling. If you are so threatened by this type of lifestyle, then I suggest you check yourself and take a really good look in the mirror and decide for yourself if you really are as heterosexual and as loving a Christian as you claim to be. If you feel THAT threatened, then perhaps YOU are the one with the issues.

*drops mic*

No further responses from me will be forthcoming. Any PMs on the subject from you will be reported to the moderator as harassing and intolerant.

[Pace]

Warning #1. PMs sent. Get back on topic. Do not respond to the inflammatory comments. If you must chime in, take it to PM.

[LSThiker]

How can CAP teach Christian moral values and allow something against natural law at the same time?

Can you please provide a regulation quote that says CAP teaches Christian moral values?

Last time I checked, we have Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Atheists, Satanists, and scores of other religions in CAP.

[Panzerbjorn]

So you would be OK with a transvestite 6' 2" 5:00 shadow deep voice with heels and a blond wig helping your 13 year old son develop Core Values? Do you want your 14 year old daughter to spend all week a group of college aged female cadets who believe they are men?  What a joke. I don't want my family anywhere near that type of perversion.

My single attempt to give a rational response to an irrational statement and individual...

As long as that 6'2" transvestite conforms with CAPR 39-1 and our grooming standards, I don't see the problem.  If that person is teaching the Core Values as laid out by CAP then they're not teaching any perversion.  It also should be pointed out that CAP doesn't provide a platform to stage a drag or burlesque show at cadet meetings.  So, I really think your concern is truly for naught.

As far as your other concern of teaching Christian values, perhaps you'd be more comfortable in the Boy Scouts if that is your primary concern.