Goodbye to an NCO

[THRAWN]

Anybody know if CAP is still given space in THE BOOK? Seems to me that if the org is getting space there, it should be getting at least a mention to all airmen at some point....

[abdsp51]

What have you done besides moan, piss and cry about it?

I'm with you on your other points, but not the "shoot the messenger" responses we get here too often.

Being able to tell a tire is flat doesn't automatically mean you have the skill, ability, or authority to fix it, and
others standing next to you on the side of the road saying "Well have you tried to fix it?" won't get the car back on the road.

The fix for CAP's identity issues need to start at well above the level of the majority of the posters on this forum.

The fix does need to happen, but consistent crying about how Amn Snuffy of Boondocks AFB, doesn't know about us doesn't fix it.  The people in the AF who need to know and have the pull to make things happen know about us.  I can sit around here and cry and moan about things between the AF and us and the dynamic overall, but I don't.  I take steps to try and rectify the issue and figure out the best COA of all involved.   

If we as an organization want people to know about us it is up to us to inform them.  If we want Amn Snuffy to know about us there are ways to go about it and BMT and the PDG are not the places for it. Sorry there are more important things to be done in those two realms than us.  You want to do a brief at FTAC or a CC call or another org by all means go ahead and do so.

Sorry but the AF has bigger issues to attend to than educating it's members about us. 

[Storm Chaser]

CAP has zero impact on most Airmen, so a briefing about CAP at BMT would mean very little. Perhaps if we worried less about uniforms, insignias, promotions and whether Airmen know about us or greet us when in uniform, and instead focused of making significant contributions to Air Force operations and non-combat missions, then maybe, just maybe the Air Force would see us differently.

How can we make significant contributions to their operations if they are not aware of us?

That's putting the cart before the horse. We need to focus on what matters to the Air Force if we want them to see us as a partner. Worrying about uniforms, or getting promoted, or having Airmen acknowledge or greet us in order to get that good fuzzy-feeling is not what the Air Force wants or cares about. 

In fact, there are many operational opportunities today (fire patrol, low-level surveys, aerial/ground photography, air intercept training/air defense exercises, etc.) that support the Air Force's needs. We need to continue focusing on these and other expanding opportunities that truly support the Air Force.

[MacGruff]

The fix does need to happen, but consistent crying about how Amn Snuffy of Boondocks AFB, doesn't know about us doesn't fix it.  The people in the AF who need to know and have the pull to make things happen know about us.  I can sit around here and cry and moan about things between the AF and us and the dynamic overall, but I don't.  I take steps to try and rectify the issue and figure out the best COA of all involved.   

If we as an organization want people to know about us it is up to us to inform them.  If we want Amn Snuffy to know about us there are ways to go about it and BMT and the PDG are not the places for it. Sorry there are more important things to be done in those two realms than us.  You want to do a brief at FTAC or a CC call or another org by all means go ahead and do so.

Sorry but the AF has bigger issues to attend to than educating it's members about us.

Building on what you are saying, I recently contacted our local Air Force recruiter to ask him to come to our squadron to present his experiences in the Air Force to the cadets. The gentleman in question is a Staff Sergeant and he told me that he has never spoke to anyone from CAP. He has heard some vague things about us from his colleague recruiters and knew we were around him "somewhere" but had no idea on who we are or what we do.

The next 20 minutes of the conversation was spent on bringing him up to speed on our three missions and relationship with the Air Force.

He is coming out to meet with us in about a month and has already told his fellow recruiters about us, judging from the emailed questions I received about what we do.

[Майор Хаткевич]

The fix does need to happen, but consistent crying about how Amn Snuffy of Boondocks AFB, doesn't know about us doesn't fix it.  The people in the AF who need to know and have the pull to make things happen know about us.  I can sit around here and cry and moan about things between the AF and us and the dynamic overall, but I don't.  I take steps to try and rectify the issue and figure out the best COA of all involved.   

If we as an organization want people to know about us it is up to us to inform them.  If we want Amn Snuffy to know about us there are ways to go about it and BMT and the PDG are not the places for it. Sorry there are more important things to be done in those two realms than us.  You want to do a brief at FTAC or a CC call or another org by all means go ahead and do so.

Sorry but the AF has bigger issues to attend to than educating it's members about us.

Building on what you are saying, I recently contacted our local Air Force recruiter to ask him to come to our squadron to present his experiences in the Air Force to the cadets. The gentleman in question is a Staff Sergeant and he told me that he has never spoke to anyone from CAP. He has heard some vague things about us from his colleague recruiters and knew we were around him "somewhere" but had no idea on who we are or what we do.

The next 20 minutes of the conversation was spent on bringing him up to speed on our three missions and relationship with the Air Force.

He is coming out to meet with us in about a month and has already told his fellow recruiters about us, judging from the emailed questions I received about what we do.

That's because he just found a potential pool of recruits.

[Eclipse]

That's because he just found a potential pool of recruits.

+1 I wouldn't get too excited about him writing a check.  BTDT.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

That's because he just found a potential pool of recruits.

+1 I wouldn't get too excited about him writing a check.  BTDT.

I am reminded of the story of a former LO/State Director who came to one of my unit meetings and told us that our only real responsibility was to make sure cadets got their Mitchell so they could get their E-3 at BMT.

An Air Force recruiter not knowing about us is - yes, I will say it - inexcusable, considering that a potential enlistee's CAP service could bear on how s/he enlists in the Air Force.

I would hazard a guess that a Marine Corps recruiter is not similarly ignorant of the Young Marines, or a Navy/CG recruiter of the NSCC.

We need to focus on what matters to the Air Force if we want them to see us as a partner.

In fact, there are many operational opportunities today (fire patrol, low-level surveys, aerial/ground photography, air intercept training/air defense exercises, etc.) that support the Air Force's needs. We need to continue focusing on these and other expanding opportunities that truly support the Air Force.

All right, but an unspoken possible implication is that they do not see us as a partner, when clearly we are by law.

Those operational opportunities are fine - IF you are fortunate enough to live in an area with a high Air Force/ANG/AFRES presence.  I read about those operations in the CAP Volunteer and am frankly envious of the personnel fortunate enough to be able to take part.

Unfortunately, I do not.  Two AFB's in my state fell victim to the BRAC axe and an ANG installation will probably fall victim to the next one...the only reason it hasn't yet is because our former Governor lobbied like heck to keep it.

The only real AF-support events I can recall CAP being called to take part in locally is to simulate disaster victims for the ANG (get moulaged, etc) - and the callout for that was for cadets.

[MacGruff]

That's because he just found a potential pool of recruits.

+1 I wouldn't get too excited about him writing a check.  BTDT.

Not asking him for a check, so did not schedule a run to the local bank either...   

I'm not surprised about his reaction to the request to come and present the Air Force to a bunch of possible recruits. It was exactly what I expected. I was simply reaffirming what this thread has morphed in to, there is a lack of knowledge of CAP amongst Air Force personnel. In a way, I suppose, I am doing my little bit to fix that...    :angel:

[Storm Chaser]

We need to focus on what matters to the Air Force if we want them to see us as a partner.

In fact, there are many operational opportunities today (fire patrol, low-level surveys, aerial/ground photography, air intercept training/air defense exercises, etc.) that support the Air Force's needs. We need to continue focusing on these and other expanding opportunities that truly support the Air Force.

All right, but an unspoken possible implication is that they do not see us as a partner, when clearly we are by law.

You're confusing our legal status as the Air Force Auxiliary with being an Air Force partner.

Those operational opportunities are fine - IF you are fortunate enough to live in an area with a high Air Force/ANG/AFRES presence.  I read about those operations in the CAP Volunteer and am frankly envious of the personnel fortunate enough to be able to take part.

Unfortunately, I do not.  Two AFB's in my state fell victim to the BRAC axe and an ANG installation will probably fall victim to the next one...the only reason it hasn't yet is because our former Governor lobbied like heck to keep it.

The only real AF-support events I can recall CAP being called to take part in locally is to simulate disaster victims for the ANG (get moulaged, etc) - and the callout for that was for cadets.

You don't need to be close to an Air Force base to support some of these missions. In fact, you can support the AFRCC by participating in SAR and ELT search missions.

[ColonelJack]

You're confusing our legal status as the Air Force Auxiliary with being an Air Force partner.

And yet, I can remember a time in the not-too-distant past when the Air Force proudly listed us as one of the four parts of the Team:  Active AF, AF Reserve, Air National Guard, and Civil Air Patrol.

That wasn't all that long ago, you know.

So what happened?

Jack

[Storm Chaser]

You're confusing our legal status as the Air Force Auxiliary with being an Air Force partner.

And yet, I can remember a time in the not-too-distant past when the Air Force proudly listed us as one of the four parts of the Team:  Active AF, AF Reserve, Air National Guard, and Civil Air Patrol.

That wasn't all that long ago, you know.

So what happened?

Jack

To be honest, I don't remember that. Since I've been in the Air Force it's always been Active, Reserve, Guard and Civilians (as in government employees).

Either way, we are the Air Force Auxiliary and, as such, should be asking "how can we contribute to the Air Force mission", not so much "what has the Air Force done for me lately". I know CAP Talk is not CAP, but from reading some of these posts, it would be easy to get the impression that our priorities are focused on the wrong things.

[Eclipse]

Appreciation and respect are a two-way street.

[PHall]

You're confusing our legal status as the Air Force Auxiliary with being an Air Force partner.

And yet, I can remember a time in the not-too-distant past when the Air Force proudly listed us as one of the four parts of the Team:  Active AF, AF Reserve, Air National Guard, and Civil Air Patrol.

That wasn't all that long ago, you know.

So what happened?

Jack

I don't remember that Jack, and I've been around, off and on, since Dec 1969.

[Eclipse]

So what happened?

The 90s, for starters.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_Realignment_and_Closure

[sardak]

And yet, I can remember a time in the not-too-distant past when the Air Force proudly listed us as one of the four parts of the Team:  Active AF, AF Reserve, Air National Guard, and Civil Air Patrol.

To be honest, I don't remember that. Since I've been in the Air Force it's always been Active, Reserve, Guard and Civilians (as in government employees).

I don't remember that Jack, and I've been around, off and on, since Dec 1969.

It was an Assistant Secretary of the Air Force for Manpower and Reserve Affairs (SAF/MR), who said it in a speech, and it was a point being made, not a slip-up. It seems to me it was five or so years ago. Somewhere I have (or had) the reference. CAP falls under the SAF/MR and it was the most recent one that signed off on the changes to the CAP NCO Corps.

Mike

[Eclipse]

It was an Assistant Secretary of the Air Force for Manpower and Reserve Affairs (SAF/MR), who said it in a speech, and it was a point being made, not a slip-up. It seems to me it was five or so years ago. Somewhere I have (or had) the reference. CAP falls under the SAF/MR and it was the most recent one that signed off on the changes to the CAP NCO Corps.

That rhetoric started popping up in the 2006-2007 era - certainly a lot of talk about it on here around then.

Sounded good in speeches, looked good on T-Shirts, amounted to exactly (( * ))...

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Appreciation and respect are a two-way street.

As in most things in life.

Speaking purely for myself, I know I am less motivated to help someone out if I do not believe my help is appreciated and/or taken for granted.

This is kind of a "chicken-and-the-egg" theorem, but what comes first?

We bust it for the Air Force in the hope that they might appreciate it and notice us, much less consider us a "partner?"

The Air Force acknowledge us publicly as part of their "team" (as the USCG does with their Auxiliary...and save it with the "we're not them" line), which would cost the Air Force absolutely NOTHING in practical terms, which would motivate us to help them more?

I'm not talking about salutes, uniforms, ribbons or any of that.  I mean even small things like CAP-RAP.  The last time I saw any AF personnel connect with us was about four years ago.  He was a Major, AFRES, airline pilot on civvy street, and a nice guy as it happens.  He showed up at a squadron meeting in his flight suit and a CAP-USAF crest on his right sleeve.  He openly admitted, "I'm not sure what I'm actually supposed to do to help the CAP out."  We never saw him again.

In contrast, when I first joined in 1993 my squadron CC called us "the Air Force's best-kept secret."  Our then-LO visited my squadron on my second or third squadron meeting.  Great guy.  Even our next LO/SD was present at virtually all our Wing functions, and the short time we had an LNCO (SMSgt) he was too.

Oh, and as to whether or not we've been listed as part of "Team Air Force"...

I once knew a Lutheran pastor who was a former AFRES Chaplain.  He told me "I used to see CAP people on virtually every base I was either assigned to or visiting...I had no problem saluting them or just saying hello."

This is not an official source, but if any of you have read Walter J. Boyne's history of the USAF, Beyond The Wild Blue (a good read, as it happens), the last chapter is called "Guard, Reserve and Civil Air Patrol."  He gives us almost as much page space as he does the ANG and AFRES.

To use just a little space on blingage...we could replace a lot of CAP awards by using already-existing AF Civilian Awards; i.e., the Civilian Air Medal:

http://www.omsa.org/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=4066

After all, when we are on AFAM's, we are considered an instrumentality of the Air Force.

If we can break our necks and/or lose our lives helping out the Air Force, then (and this is going to sound egotistical but honestly I don't care in this context) we bloody well can be recognised the same as other civilian members of "Team Air Force."

[abdsp51]

To use just a little space on blingage...we could replace a lot of CAP awards by using already-existing AF Civilian Awards; i.e., the Civilian Air Medal:

http://www.omsa.org/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=4066

After all, when we are on AFAM's, we are considered an instrumentality of the Air Force.

If we can break our necks and/or lose our lives helping out the Air Force, then (and this is going to sound egotistical but honestly I don't care in this context) we bloody well can be recognised the same as other civilian members of "Team Air Force."

CAP is not the same as the "other civilian members" of Team Air Force.  Are you willing to deploy to coup some of these perks the rest of "Team Air Force" does? 

[Eclipse]

CAP is not the same as the "other civilian members" of Team Air Force.  Are you willing to deploy to coup some of these perks the rest of "Team Air Force" does?

Where, for what, and let's discuss compensation (oh wait, we don't get that).

Not all "deployments" are international, nor are they into war zones.  A very good USAF
buddy of mine is regularly "deployed" in the CONUS to areas which turn the "deployment"
into a paycation.

I like paycations.  (back on one this weekend, Lordmonor will feel the change in pressure when I step off the plane).

[abdsp51]

CAP is not the same as the "other civilian members" of Team Air Force.  Are you willing to deploy to coup some of these perks the rest of "Team Air Force" does?

Where, for what, and let's discuss compensation (oh wait, we don't get that).

Not all "deployments" are international, nor are they into war zones.  A very good USAF
buddy of mine is regularly "deployed" in the CONUS to areas which turn the "deployment"
into a paycation.

I like paycations.  (back on one this weekend, Lordmonor will feel the change in pressure when I step off the plane).

I am well aware of different deployment types as that is my day to day job.  People want to cry about being recognized as AF civilian when not even in the same category they can do more. 

The awards described are for AF civilians employed by the AF, which CAP does not fall under.  If folks want that recognition then they can step up and do whats needed for it.