New NCO Promotion Regulations

[RiverAux]

For a very long time I've resisted the idea of tying CAP rank to position as was suggested a few posts ago.  This is one of the things that CG Aux basically does (though it isn't really "rank" in the CAP sense) that I didn't think would translate well to CAP.  I did believe that the CAP PD and TIG system worked fairly well for CAP and made sense. 

But. I think Eclipse finally swung me around with this:

The biggest issue with CAP PD is that while it is presented and emphasized as being important, it's not
actually required for >anything< except progression, which is also not required for anything.

He wasn't saying this in support of a rank=position system, but it really does logically lead to such a system. 

I suppose this isn't a big stretch for me as I have previously proposed tying rank to ES qualifications (and I still think that is the best way to go), but I suppose I'm more open to the idea of using administrative position to determine rank if we can't quite go all the way to what I'd like.

On that basis, the NCO system makes even less sense as they have no administrative or practical purpose in CAP. 

[NCRblues]

^^^^^^

All fair points. And I'll go back to what I said a few posts back...your nominal Mission Pilot/GTL/CP guy isn't wearing umpteen hats if his tiny six-person squadron gets merged with seven other tiny six-person squadrons in the immediate area.

Non-workable. You have entire Wings, na, regions that this can't work. For example, me. The unit in my town is a one hour drive (one way) from the nearest unit. The secound nearest unit is 2 hours one way. Welcome to rural Midwest.

Are we now going to ask already cash strapped volunteers to go ahead and jump in the family shaginwagon and drive those miles at a minimum once a week? Won't work.

[Eclipse]

Agreed - it also cuts the legs right off the CP as many of the leaders of those units are also the ES
movers and shakers in a given wing (as well as everything else).

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

[The only part I don't like is that promotions top out at Lieutenant Commander ... and from what I've read, that's very difficult to reach.  There is also almost no direct appointment to the grades of Lieutenant and Lieutenant Commander.  How would we do such a system in CAP, where we're promotable to Lieutenant Colonel and appointable as far as Major General?

Interesting ideas, though ...

Jack

I am not saying import the NSCC system lock, stock and barrel.  However, I think the fact that their ranks do require more work to attain gives them more credibility than just handing someone 2nd Lt for (maybe) showing up for six months and not causing any major incidents.  I think that could be one problem the USAF has with our system of granting rank.

As far as I know, the NSCC does not do direct appointments.  I do not know if they have positions such as Chaplains, etc., or if those are provided by volunteering Navy personnel.

The closest thing I know of to a direct appointment with them is that if someone comes in with E-6, s/he can be automatically be promoted to the grade of Chief Warrant Officer, and then (I believe) after a year can be promoted to Lieutenant (j.g.).

It is a lot more complicated than ours...even getting in involves jumping through a lot more hoops than we do.

http://tinyurl.com/NSCCregs

My first squadron was co-located with an NSCC unit and we got on with them quite well.  I remember they got a lot more direct support from the Navy, Marine Corps and Coast Guard than we did from the Air Force, despite their not having any sort of "auxiliary" status.  Their cadets were very squared away.

I have posted this before but a couple of years ago I ran into an NSCC Ensign and chatted with him a while.  He said "I don't know why the Air Force seems to want to keep you guys at arm's length."

[catrulz]

There needs to be a separate thread on PD Improvement.

A member only sits for 6 months and puts on 2ndLt if the unit allows this to be the training regimen.  Having said that, I agree PD in CAP is broken (perhaps broken is too strong, inadequate).   IMHO part of the problem here is recruitment and the way many of our recruits view the program.  Many recruits join because their kids become cadets in the program.  The parent views the program as scout like in nature.  To be sure there are some similarities to scouting, but also many differences.  In many cases parents should be recruited as sponsors, and not as Senior Members.  Second issue is the family member that insists they be made Senior Members, when in fact you know you aren't going to get more than cadet supervision from the individual.

Issue two is CAP PD is repetitious and mostly doesn't require validation.  Level I must be passed by exam.  But SLS, CLC, RSC (can't say about NSC since have not attended), even UCC and TLC are not required to be passed, just attended.  This system produces senior officers that don't know anything.  Many unit commander's believe that in order to obtain a technical rating in a specialty, one must just occupy the slot for 6 months.  The other service and knowledge requirements in the Specialty Track pamphlets are ignored.

We have a program that is run by volunteers.  Comparisons have been made to other organizations.  NSCC doesn't require the senior staff of a CAP squadron, there is no actual SM program.  The PD in NSCC is all focused on mentoring cadets and functioning as a NSCC officer.  SDF's have excellent PD programs.  But in an SDF you train or you go elsewhere.  They are subject to a State CMJ, and therefore as organizations tend to be more disciplined and less democratically run.  Lets face it this wouldn't work in CAP.

The best tool we have currently in CAP for training SM's is mentoring.  This assumes the junior will allow themselves to be mentored.  I have bumped into a few individuals, that simply won't submit to being mentored.  This especially applies to retired armed forces officers.  It is sometimes a strain to convince them that they need CAP PD, and that CAP doesn't function like the Air Force, Army, Marine Corps, Navy or Coast Guard.

My solution would be to change SLS, CLC, TLC, UCC, RSC into two portions.  There is the same required 12hours of classroom, but add a online pre-course that has to be passed by test.  Doesn't matter that it's open book, if it makes them look the answers up, there is some value added.  This isn't going to solve all CAPs PD woes, but it might be a good start.   

[Eclipse]

I have posted this before but a couple of years ago I ran into an NSCC Ensign and chatted with him a while.  He said "I don't know why the Air Force seems to want to keep you guys at arm's length."

Can't compare them except from space.

The NSCC is not a military auxiliary and does not have an adult program or an operational component, and further
they are clearly (and in the case of the Coast Guard specifically) a recruiting component of the military.

They also require the members to meet height / weight and be under 65 (without a waiver) to be officers.

[Eclipse]

My solution would be to change SLS, CLC, TLC, UCC, RSC into two portions.  There is the same required 12hours of classroom, but add a online pre-course that has to be passed by test.  Doesn't matter that it's open book, if it makes them look the answers up, there is some value added.  This isn't going to solve all CAPs PD woes, but it might be a good start.

I'd actually go further on this and require some kind of final exam on the major PD sessions, but my suspicion is that this would make
a lead balloon appear viable - those same people who absorb gravity in the back of the room and get a certificate would toss a fit
if they found that their weekend of "sitting quietly" had to be repeated because they couldn't spell CAP, I think this would be a major
source of attrition - you can make the argument that "well that's the point" except many of those people are also warming some
chair somewhere else that someone thinks is important.  You can't shed them without replacing them.

This year's encampment season will be the first complete one where cadets can actually "fail" encampment - it will be very interesting to
see how many actually do, and whether NHQ sticks to its guns.

I agree that conferring PD credit for attendance is self-defeating and a major part of the larger issue.

[Майор Хаткевич]

We had a fail last year at encampment.

[RiverAux]

SDF's have excellent PD programs.  But in an SDF you train or you go elsewhere. 

Uh, that may be the case in some SDFs, but may not actually be the norm.  Some SDFs have been on a good trajectory of improvement in this area.  Others are more coffee clubs than the stereotypical CAP "flying club" senior squadron. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Uh, that may be the case in some SDFs, but may not actually be the norm.  Some SDFs have been on a good trajectory of improvement in this area.  Others are more coffee clubs than the stereotypical CAP "flying club" senior squadron.

Or the stereotypical CGAUX "Let's sit around and talk about our boats" Flotilla?

My state has an SDF, but I have never seen any of its troops other than on their website.

I think in the main it's the big states like Texas, California and New York that have the most active SDF's; though I've heard good things about Georgia's.  Ohio has both an SDF and a Naval Militia, but no Air section that I know of.

[catrulz]

Guys, I was making a comparison between various types of organizations to illustrate why some organizations can compel performance, enforce standards and why others cannot.  NSCC while somewhat like CAP can be choosy due to the lack of required staff positions to fill.  CGAUX like CAP from what I've been told varies from unit to unit based on the desires of the membership.  Our unit just got an individual that left CGAUX because he didn't want to sit around and talk and drink coffee.

Like wise this move over to a PD discussion.  As a matter of fact the other organization comparison was actually part of the PD bashing session.

Look, if CAP is going to allow NCO's, and they have the entire time I've been a SM (1999), then the there was a need for improvement.  The old requirement that you signed as your last grade in the military and then just stayed there was counter to the Officer PD and promotion system.  It was not equitable.  So, two choices, take NCO's out completely or improve the system which is what is being attempted.  I don't follow all the negativity on this.  If you don't want to wear stripes don't.  If you do, I will respect just as much wearing chevrons as I would wearing stars/bars/leafs. 

Does PD in CAP need to overhauled, I think the consensus is absolutely.  But how about some positive contributions in this thread in support of the initiative.     

[Garibaldi]

Uh, that may be the case in some SDFs, but may not actually be the norm.  Some SDFs have been on a good trajectory of improvement in this area.  Others are more coffee clubs than the stereotypical CAP "flying club" senior squadron.

Or the stereotypical CGAUX "Let's sit around and talk about our boats" Flotilla?

My state has an SDF, but I have never seen any of its troops other than on their website.

I think in the main it's the big states like Texas, California and New York that have the most active SDF's; though I've heard good things about Georgia's.  Ohio has both an SDF and a Naval Militia, but no Air section that I know of.

Georgia's SDF, at least in North Georgia, is heavy into SAR, especially mountain type. Having sat on my kiester in a van for most of my GT days, it's probably not on my to-do list, unless I am successful in losing the keg. They do stuff with CAP on occasion, but mainly they supplement the ArNG. No weapons. I don't think I will make this go-around as far as entry requirements, but I'm trying.

[Shuman 14]

(Corporal - (Army and Marine Corps) - NCO.  However, I could not tell you the last time I actually saw an Army Corporal.)




Back in the day the only way to make Corporal was to get busted down from SGT E-5!

Depends on the unit and the commander.

When I was in command I laterally promoted all my Specialist Medics to Corporal, so they had the support of UCMJ action behind their derectives.

For example, A SPC tells another SPC to "take two aspirin and call him in the morning" and he doesn't... nothing really can be done.

A CPL tells you to do it, and you don't, that's failure to follow a lawful order.