New NCO Promotion Regulations

[MSG Mac]

The NCO Program as it is today is only the tip of the iceberg. I can envision CAP as having all members coming in as MSWOG and the requirement for a college degree and /or an Officer Training Course for all Officers. Maintaining manning tables as shown in 20-1 with grade restrictions based on position, command level, and PD.

[Eclipse]

The NCO Program as it is today is only the tip of the iceberg. I can envision CAP as having all members coming in as MSWOG and the requirement for a college degree and /or an Officer Training Course for all Officers. Maintaining manning tables as shown in 20-1 with grade restrictions based on position, command level, and PD.

Manning tables with restrictions to hold a staff position?  In a CAP universe where members hold seven different jobs at
three different echelons just to keep the doors open?

"And if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon..."

You Failed Transwarp

[lordmonar]

White papers are sometime unsolicited.   I am on the NCO committee working on the program.

One of the stated goals of the NCO program is to build a system where we can follow up and make changes in the officer program.

As a basic out line what I envision is that most member off the street will join CAP and enlisted airman basics.....at the three year mark they can either go to CAP OCS (assuming they have the prereqs) or they can go to CAP NCO school.   These would be week long course held quarterly somewhere across the country.....kind or like RSC....but different.   At the four year mark...following graduation of OCS/NCO School they put on 2d Lt or SSgt as the case my be.

Some people.....will come in as Flight Officers (lawyers, chaplains, pilots, doctors, etc) at the three year mark they go to OCS and get their 2d Lt.

Airman and Flight Officers are just worker bees.   No leadership postilions, just doing their ES/CP/AE jobs and what ever staff assistant position they hold in the unit.

During the first three years.....they work on their technician rating.....AND NOTHING ELSE!  You can't start on your next level of professional development until you are in the right window.    During the first three years not a lot of courses that you need to do....the focus is getting your tech rating and learning your job and doing it.

Once you get your stripes or bars......TIG, Duty Performance and the ability/willingness to move up in the chain is what will drive getting the next rank.

Pros......it will look a whole lot like what the USAF does.....and thereby improve our relationship with them.   Rank will means something more then it does now.   (now you can be a Lt Col and never be anything more then a squadron Assistant Staff Officer).  if we tie our rank with "promotable" positions we sill will have Lt Col Coffee Getter....but at one time he/she held a position of authority and is now just be Lt Col Snuffy contributing to the unit and mission with out have to be in the hot seat.  No more promotions to questionable people because we want to be nice.   If you want to be a Lt Col/CMSgt you are going to have to work for it.   

Cons......well it is a change....and people hate change.   The is an element of a solution looking for a problem.....CAP can continue doing what is doing now with out endangering it's existence......it may not ever grow or improve...but it will continue.


Now to address the "focus on the mission instead".  My unit is doing just fine.  We are around 80 members strong and growing.  We are doing all three missions.......and it's my spare time.....so nothing in my AOR is being neglected because I'm working on the NCO program and toying with other ideas on the side.

[lordmonar]

The NCO Program as it is today is only the tip of the iceberg. I can envision CAP as having all members coming in as MSWOG and the requirement for a college degree and /or an Officer Training Course for all Officers. Maintaining manning tables as shown in 20-1 with grade restrictions based on position, command level, and PD.

Manning tables with restrictions to hold a staff position?  In a CAP universe where members hold seven different jobs at
three different echelons just to keep the doors open?

"And if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon..."

You are right....part of the problem is all the BS stuff we have to do at the unit level.

One of my ideas I'm working with in the white paper is also a reorganization of how we do business at the unit level.   Move most of the admin BS higher up on the chain and let the "units" focus more on bushiness of the assigned missions.

[Eclipse]

White papers are sometime unsolicited.   I am on the NCO committee working on the program.

One of the stated goals of the NCO program is to build a system where we can follow up and make changes in the officer program.

As a basic out line what I envision is that most member off the street will join CAP and enlisted airman basics.....at the three year mark they can either go to CAP OCS (assuming they have the prereqs) or they can go to CAP NCO school.   These would be week long course held quarterly somewhere across the country.....kind or like RSC....but different.   At the four year mark...following graduation of OCS/NCO School they put on 2d Lt or SSgt as the case my be.

Some people.....will come in as Flight Officers (lawyers, chaplains, pilots, doctors, etc) at the three year mark they go to OCS and get their 2d Lt.

Airman and Flight Officers are just worker bees.   No leadership postilions, just doing their ES/CP/AE jobs and what ever staff assistant position they hold in the unit.

During the first three years.....they work on their technician rating.....AND NOTHING ELSE!  You can't start on your next level of professional development until you are in the right window.    During the first three years not a lot of courses that you need to do....the focus is getting your tech rating and learning your job and doing it.

Once you get your stripes or bars......TIG, Duty Performance and the ability/willingness to move up in the chain is what will drive getting the next rank.

Pros......it will look a whole lot like what the USAF does.....and thereby improve our relationship with them.   Rank will means something more then it does now.   (now you can be a Lt Col and never be anything more then a squadron Assistant Staff Officer).  if we tie our rank with "promotable" positions we sill will have Lt Col Coffee Getter....but at one time he/she held a position of authority and is now just be Lt Col Snuffy contributing to the unit and mission with out have to be in the hot seat.  No more promotions to questionable people because we want to be nice.   If you want to be a Lt Col/CMSgt you are going to have to work for it.   

Cons......well it is a change....and people hate change.   The is an element of a solution looking for a problem.....CAP can continue doing what is doing now with out endangering it's existence......it may not ever grow or improve...but it will continue.


Now to address the "focus on the mission instead".  My unit is doing just fine.  We are around 80 members strong and growing.  We are doing all three missions.......and it's my spare time.....so nothing in my AOR is being neglected because I'm working on the NCO program and toying with other ideas on the side.

Again, how nice for >you<, as well as short-sighted.  When people make comments about focusing on mission, they aren't talking about
>you< or your unit. Which, for the record, is not typical in location, personnel, resources, or mission. Talk to us about the average 8-person unit
in Flyover, USA, not Area 51 Composite.

The fact that you are on a committee trying to figure out what to do with NCOs >after< the program has already started is just more
indication that this is a pet project pushed out with the footsteps of a calendar deadline being more important then the idea.

Further to this, the venerable NCOs are going to be tasked with "fixing" the officer program?  Please.

To your last sentence, CAP will >not< continue unless it grows and improves.  The data is very clear to those interested in reading it.
The patient requires radical, disruptive, and risky intervention in order to save it.  People who are willing to lead, and accept the pain that is necessary
to fix things within the CAP careers and even lifetimes of >current< members.

[lordmonar]

The fact that you are on a committee trying to figure out what to do with NCOs >after< the program has already started is just more
indication that this is a pet project pushed out with the footsteps of a calendar deadline being more important then the idea.

As I have stated before.....as of right now the only thing that has changed with the NCO program then what was in place for years and years is that we now have a mechinism to get promoted...we have new stripes.....and we are working on making things better.

Further to this, the venerable NCOs are going to be tasked with "fixing" the officer program?  Please.

Well the officers broke it....and it is traditional for the NCOs to bail out the officers once they get in over their heads. 

To your last sentence, CAP will >not< continue unless it grows and improves.  The data is very clear to those interested in reading it.

Well I don't see the same doom and gloom as you do.....but I do agree CAP needs to improve.....hence the white paper I'm working on.  What are you doing to fix it?

The patient requires radical, disruptive, and risky intervention in order to save it.  People who are willing to lead, and accept the pain that is necessary to fix things within the CAP careers and even lifetimes of >current< members.

But what we got is just us.   So here we are.

[Eclipse]

But what we got is just us.   So here we are.

Then it was fun while it lasted, the wind-down won't be.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I would argue that E-4s in the Air Force can hold greater responsibilities than in other services such as the Army.

My MTI was an SrA and had the maturity of a playground bully.  I learned very little from him except how great he thought he was in his prior life as Security Police (as he usually told us every night at nightly briefing), permutations of the F-bomb I never thought imaginable and how to fold underwear, make a bunk and keep your security drawer in inspection order.  I learned a lot more from the other MTI's and was envious of flights who had older, higher-ranking MTI's.

My dad, an Army veteran who was E-4 Corporal in the ArNG and E-4 Specialist 4 (one of the earliest ones) on active duty, told me "An E-4 is a snotnose punk who's not grown up enough to be teaching recruits!"  He said that his Drill Sergeants were mostly E-6's and E-7's.

I could be wrong, but I have never seen a Corporal as a DI in the USMC, a Petty Officer 3rd Class as a Recruit Commander (Navy) or Company Commander (USCG).

In many cases, I think the AF has put up real roadblocks to CAP officers developing the kind of professionalism that AF folks say they want to see in us.

Say it ain't so...

It becomes circular, and not in a good way. I spoke to a BOG member once who told me, point-blank, that the AF is going to keep its distance from CAP "officers" until they have better appearance, bearing, discipline and officership skills. Well that's kind of self-defeating if you ask me; if the AF wants to improve those areas of performance and behavior, perhaps they ought to engage more and get more involved in creating structures that look and behave the way the AF wants?

It is circular, and unattainable under present circumstances.  I am reminded of the MTI quote I read where he told his Trainees to "ignore" CAP members.

I think, for example, that it would be a worthwhile investment if competitively selected, high-quality CAP officers (and, in the new scheme, NCOs) got trained and certified to conduct CAP-only versions of Airman Leadership School, NCO School and the Commissioned Officer Training (COT) course. They could do it at locations around the country, like NCSAs are done now, and the COT course is short enough that you could do it in an NCSA-like setting. Not everyone would have to go; but those who DID go might get preferred looks for certain kinds of roles. If you did it in enough places around the country, you wouldn't be penalizing those who live far away from a site...heck, maybe each Wing could do one. It would (or could) go along with the Command specialty track. If you aspire to those kinds of roles, you have to get the higher-level training, so that when we interact with AF officers they would feel more comfortable that we're really talking the same language and in similar places in our progression and understanding.

That would be good...for those who aspire to Command positions.

My talk with this BOG person veered, interestingly, into uniform territory. (For the record, HE made it a uniform "thread," not me!) He observed that CAP would "never get ABUs so long as you've got 72-year-old second lieutenants." It struck me as kind of an obnoxious thing to say, but if it's at all reflective of ideas floating around the AF, then it probably tells us something.

Others will dispute this, of course, but it reinforces the "red-headed stepchild" syndrome, with no way to get out of it...unless we set upper age limits for our membership.  That might make the AF happy (not bloody likely) but would certainly make us look discriminatory.

Would they be happier with 72-year-old A1C's?

When this person went on to complain about many senior members' inability to wear the AF uniform "properly," I pointed out the roadblocks the AF has put up to members trying to obtain reasonable uniform items, noting specifically the nonsensical hoops we're made to jump through to buy from AAFES if we aren't near a military installation. A price list without pictures? No web access? Ordering with only one or two special customer-service representatives who can take the order? No wonder people go to Salvation Army or eBay to get basic uniform items...if you can get on base, you can buy a blue uniform shirt for $15; if you can't, Vanguard sells you one for $45! How does THAT help the average member obtain new and like-new quality items for appearances?

I would say that the AF's attitude would probably be "it's not our problem," which is again an example of a circular argument.

I know there are those on here who take ill any criticism of our parent service, but honestly after seeing the attitudes exhibited by too many of them toward us I really don't care.  I know that I can wear the uniform as well as they can, and perform requisite customs and courtesies as well as they can.

[flyboy53]

Cyborg,

In one of the other strings of this website, somebody posted comments made by someone at Air Staff Level back in the 50s about issues with CAP officers. I would argue that our entire promotions/PD program has needed a serious overhaul for years. Our ranks, whether they be NCO or officer, have to mean something not only to each of us as adult members but to the cadets and our parent service as well.

Instead of making officer grade something warranting recognition, we've "dumbed" the program down so much that it doesn't really take a whole lot on the grand scheme of things to get promoted unless you receive a professional appointment as a nurse, doctor, chaplain or lawyer. Its pretty sad when a professional appointment carries more criteria than someone just coming off the street. Imagine what our program may develop into if the officers were held to the same standard of only just the guard and the reserve.

So now we recreate the NCO Program and make it something where only a former NCO can go into the program and advance -- largely because only a former NCO would really know what the grade means and what it takes to get there. So, all of a sudden, it actually means that the NCOs are finally stepping to the plate and developing a program that may be recognized by other NCOs. I would hope this is a start of a change through the entire senior member program because I'm really tired of cadet officers who think they have more authority through their training than the senior members over them.

And for the record about E-4 senior airmen being MTIs, etc., sure I had an assistant MTI who was an E-4 sergeant in basic, too, but that individual wasn't in charge even though he was a prior service Marine with a combat tour in Vietnam. That is something that I'm shocked to think was almost four decades ago and a lot of change has happened since.  BUT, most importantly, that sergeant still didn't have the authority of the Technical Sergeant MTI that was responsible not only for him but the entire flight.

[DoubleSecret]

Seems to me they need to read a passage from Heinlein's "Starship Troopers", discussing the administrative and training role assumed by re-activated retired volunteers, as well as injured personnel no longer fit for field service., during war time; the speaker remarks that these individuals ought to count twice because they freed others for more active responsibilities.

Hard to believe that Robert Anson Heinlein, Lieutenant (junior grade), USN, Retired (placed on the retired list due to total and permanent disability) would have that view.  Shocking. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Cyborg,

In one of the other strings of this website, somebody posted comments made by someone at Air Staff Level back in the 50s about issues with CAP officers. I would argue that our entire promotions/PD program has needed a serious overhaul for years. Our ranks, whether they be NCO or officer, have to mean something not only to each of us as adult members but to the cadets and our parent service as well.

No argument from me on that one.  I always found it baffling that CAP was virtually all-officers (at least when I joined).  I have said before here that, again, quoting my Army veteran dad, when I joined CAP he said "sounds like you've got more Chiefs than Indians."

I will say that in my day it was different in that you did not get 2nd Lt handed to you automatically after six months, or maybe it was just the culture of the squadron I joined (if so, that was all to the good).  Contrast that with the second squadron I was a member of, where pilots signed up their significant others so they could fly in CAP aircraft.  We had a roster full of second lieutenants who never showed up (in fact I never met most of them) or took part in anything except the occasional airplane ride.

I think the way the Navy Sea Cadets do it is better.  You are an "Instructor" for a full year and have to study the NSCC Handbook.  After the year is up, the prospective officer is tested and a recommendation made on whether or not s/he should be granted the rank of Ensign - and it is not automatic.

I would posit that reopening the warrant officer ranks would be better in that it could be a completely different set of expectations for those who do not aspire to command, not to mention that it would add to our "distinctiveness" since the USAF has not had them in a long time.

However, that is not going to happen anytime soon.  I do support the introduction of the NCO ranks, but I think it should encompass junior enlisted as well. 

I just hope that it does not become as politicised as the officer promotions have become.

[ColonelJack]

I think the way the Navy Sea Cadets do it is better.  You are an "Instructor" for a full year and have to study the NSCC Handbook.  After the year is up, the prospective officer is tested and a recommendation made on whether or not s/he should be granted the rank of Ensign - and it is not automatic.

The only part I don't like is that promotions top out at Lieutenant Commander ... and from what I've read, that's very difficult to reach.  There is also almost no direct appointment to the grades of Lieutenant and Lieutenant Commander.  How would we do such a system in CAP, where we're promotable to Lieutenant Colonel and appointable as far as Major General?

Interesting ideas, though ...

Jack

[ZigZag911]

Airman and Flight Officers are just worker bees.   No leadership postilions, just doing their ES/CP/AE jobs and what ever staff assistant position they hold in the unit.

During the first three years.....they work on their technician rating.....AND NOTHING ELSE!  You can't start on your next level of professional development until you are in the right window.    During the first three years not a lot of courses that you need to do....the focus is getting your tech rating and learning your job and doing it.

While it is an excellent idea, I don't think we have the experienced personnel available to channel new members into what amounts to a three year apprenticeship...it would be nice if we did, but it simply is not realistic.

[lordmonar]

Airman and Flight Officers are just worker bees.   No leadership postilions, just doing their ES/CP/AE jobs and what ever staff assistant position they hold in the unit.

During the first three years.....they work on their technician rating.....AND NOTHING ELSE!  You can't start on your next level of professional development until you are in the right window.    During the first three years not a lot of courses that you need to do....the focus is getting your tech rating and learning your job and doing it.

While it is an excellent idea, I don't think we have the experienced personnel available to channel new members into what amounts to a three year apprenticeship...it would be nice if we did, but it simply is not realistic.

As opposed to what we got now?   Same people...the only real difference it that instead of most of them putting on Captain....the would be just be putting on SSgt or 2d Lt.     That alone will make us much more credible in the eyes of our parent service and other agencies.  And like I said....I'm also looking at ways to reduce the amount of BS that units have to do and allow them more time to mentor and manage their new people.

[NCRblues]

Same people...the only real difference it that instead of most of them putting on Captain....the would be just be putting on SSgt or 2d Lt.     That alone will make us much more credible in the eyes of our parent service and other agencies.  And like I said....I'm also looking at ways to reduce the amount of BS that units have to do and allow them more time to mentor and manage their new people.

HOW? How does a person wearing SSGT make us more credible? How is a three year wait time to do anything basically make cap more credible? This is simply wishful thinking.

Looking for ways to reduce the BS at units? I'm sorry, is the NCO working group now been tasked with streamlining the whole orginization? That's a neat ADY.

Let me say this, as a former AD AF member, 99.9% of the AF (or any other branch for that matter) does not care what grade we wear. Heck, over half the time on this site we all complain about how the AF members don't even know who we are! How can we have it both ways?! Either they don't know who we are or they do know who we are and dislike us because we have some old fogies wearing bars and bottle caps...

Again, this is insanity to be wasting our time and resources on this...

[lordmonar]

Same people...the only real difference it that instead of most of them putting on Captain....the would be just be putting on SSgt or 2d Lt.     That alone will make us much more credible in the eyes of our parent service and other agencies.  And like I said....I'm also looking at ways to reduce the amount of BS that units have to do and allow them more time to mentor and manage their new people.

HOW? How does a person wearing SSGT make us more credible? How is a three year wait time to do anything basically make cap more credible? This is simply wishful thinking.

Looking for ways to reduce the BS at units? I'm sorry, is the NCO working group now been tasked with streamlining the whole orginization? That's a neat ADY.

Let me say this, as a former AD AF member, 99.9% of the AF (or any other branch for that matter) does not care what grade we wear. Heck, over half the time on this site we all complain about how the AF members don't even know who we are! How can we have it both ways?! Either they don't know who we are or they do know who we are and dislike us because we have some old fogies wearing bars and bottle caps...

Again, this is insanity to be wasting our time and resources on this...

How does waiting three years before giving someone "higher rank" give us more credibility?   As opposed to our current system of Level I and waiting six months?  You really asked that question?   And it will not just be a longer wait.   It will also be coupled with a system of real PD and outside qualifications that will in prove the quality of people who actually wear officer and NCO rank.

No the NCO working group is not taking on the task of reducing the BS....I said that I'm taking on the task to suggest to NHQ ways to reduce the BS.    I just happen to also be on the NCO working group.  I'm also an advisor to the commander of the Nellis Composite Squadron....and to be clear the Nellis Composite Squadron is not takeing on the task to reduce the BS. 

As for Insanity to be wasting our time on.......of all the inane things to say on CAP TALK.....but I'll say it is my time to waste.....no one is asking you to do anything.

[ProdigalJim]

Airman and Flight Officers are just worker bees.   No leadership postilions, just doing their ES/CP/AE jobs and what ever staff assistant position they hold in the unit.

During the first three years.....they work on their technician rating.....AND NOTHING ELSE!  You can't start on your next level of professional development until you are in the right window.    During the first three years not a lot of courses that you need to do....the focus is getting your tech rating and learning your job and doing it.

While it is an excellent idea, I don't think we have the experienced personnel available to channel new members into what amounts to a three year apprenticeship...it would be nice if we did, but it simply is not realistic.

I would argue that in practical terms this ^^^ is already what we do...except in a haphazard, ad hoc, unstructured way that sometimes produces highly skilled personnel and other times produces non-proficient personnel or bored personnel who leave in the absence of any real challenge.

Why not spell it out? Why not put some real gates in place?

[ProdigalJim]

HOW? How does a person wearing SSGT make us more credible? How is a three year wait time to do anything basically make cap more credible? This is simply wishful thinking.

With grade, it's not the mere wearing of stripes or bars or leaves or whatever...it's the communication of expectations. In situations when AD types don't really know much about us (which, to your point, is often) it's a question of what AD folks expect from SSGTs or 2nd Lt.'s or Lt. Col.'s when they see them.

Their cultural training is to look around the room for the guy or gal wearing oaks...he or she is probably knowledgeable, or senior or more grownup. Except in CAP, there's maybe a 25% chance or better that's not true. When the AD person discovers this (by said person opening his or her mouth and saying something dumb or offensive) we lose credibility. By contrast, when we show up, do the job and blend in, we get brownie points. Learning *how* to show up, do the job and blend in is -- in part -- the purpose of the Professional Development curriculum, and when we do it half-heartedly or pay it lip service, it shows in how we interact with our counterparts. I've witnessed it and it ain't pretty. ("Is that guy one of *yours*?" I was asked. All I could say was "we're not all that way.")

That's one reason I'm not a huge fan of online/distance-learning when the purpose is indoctrination or acculturation. If you're trying to learn calculus, sure, knock yourself out. But if you're trying to impart a shared culture or identity, online-only is kind of inadequate.

I was in the Fire Academy for nine months. In between learning about how to pull hose or throw ladders or open locks or flow water or don our PPE or pry windows, etc. (all physical/muscle-memory tasks), part of what we learned about was how to *behave* like firefighters, how to think like firefighters, what it meant to wear the Maltese cross over our hearts, how to work with each other and get along and live with each other and cook with each other. We took on shared values. Being a professional officer, or NCO, means taking on the professional values and ethos of those levels of position and I don't think our present system does a very good job of imparting those values in a consistent and measurable way.

Personally I'm looking forward to reading what Pat comes up with. Whether I agree with it or not (I suspect I will) doesn't matter a whit; at least he's trying to do something about what he perceives as a shortcoming.

[Eclipse]

As for Insanity to be wasting our time on.......of all the inane things to say on CAP TALK.....but I'll say it is my time to waste.....no one is asking you to do anything.

NHQ isn't on CT, this per project is, and it's a waste of every second that has been spent on it.

Why not spell it out? Why not put some real gates in place?

For starters it is literally a physical impossibility to bar members from leadership positions for any set period in
an organization which is so poorly manned that members become key staff members, or worse, commanders
within the first 6 months of their membership.

You are 30-50,000 member away from this being even a remote possibility, let alone a workable plan.

[lordmonar]

As for Insanity to be wasting our time on.......of all the inane things to say on CAP TALK.....but I'll say it is my time to waste.....no one is asking you to do anything.

NHQ isn't on CT, this per project is, and it's a waste of every second that has been spent on it.

My time.