New NCO Promotion Regulations

[PHall]

I already started a thread a couple of months ago about this.
I say it will be gone inside of two years.

[ZigZag911]

Phase II of the transition involves developing and implementing a different PD system the the officer side......so there will be a difference.

I had not heard that, has it been announced yet?

In any event, that's a step in the right direction.

[GroundHawg]

I already started a thread a couple of months ago about this.
I say it will be gone inside of two years.

While I agree with you, I dont think anything within this organization could possibly get done in 2 years. Five to seven I could believe, but two would be warp speed.

[lordmonar]

I want clarify some information that may have gotten garbled about the SNCO promotion quotas and how that relates to how many NCOs are allowed at each echelon.

There are no quotas for any one rank.   Any current or former SNCOs can, after six months of membership, can be appointed to their SNCO rank.  They DO NOT have to be in the one promotable billet.

The quota is only for promotion.  You get one.....and that individual must be assigned to the Squadron NCO position.  As of right now ESERVICE does not have the NCO positions in the duty assignments module.   I'm trying to find out if there is a fix date for that.

[Private Investigator]

Maybe....just maybe.....in the future we will have an enlisted corps that the majority of CAP members belongs to and not everyone and his brother will be a Lt Col.

I like the concept. 

[pierson777]

Okay.  That makes sense.  Thanks for clarifying.  I missed the important difference between an appointment and a promotion.   The first time, it's a NCO appointment, then subsequent advancements are promotions.  That's good to know.  I needed the reminder. 

[JeffDG]

Okay.  That makes sense.  Thanks for clarifying.  I missed the important difference between an appointment and a promotion.   The first time, it's a NCO appointment, then subsequent advancements are promotions.  That's good to know.  I needed the reminder.

But that raises another question...if an AD/Res/NG NCO gets promoted by their service, can they be promoted within CAP...because it's no longer an "appointment", but a promotion.

[Lord of the North]

The answer is in CAPR 35-5.  See below.  The emphasis is my addition.
6-2c. Members who meet the eligibility requirement outlined above may assume a CAP NCO grade equivalent to their military grade upon presentation of documentation to the unit commander (a copy of DD Form 214, military identification card or promotion order showing the grade requested is considered sufficient). The CAPF 2 will be annotated to reflect the NCO grade authorized and forward this form to National Headquarters for recording. Forms may be submitted by e-mail, fax or U.S. Postal Service as outlined in paragraph 1-8c(1) above. The member is authorized to wear the grade (CAP distinctive chevrons only) on the CAP uniform as soon as the NCO grade is reflected in eServices.

6-3. Subsequent Promotions. Subsequent promotions must meet the minimum skill level and time-in-grade requirements and be considered by the appropriate Promotion Board. Time-in grade requirements are based on the member's grade in CAP and is not affected by a currently serving member's time in military grade. Once a member enters the NCO program, promotion is based entirely on the above criteria and is not affected by a currently serving member's military promotion. Members eligible for promotion may only be promoted if selected for the identified in Figure 8. Where "any position" is listed, there are no limits to the number of members promotable to the respective grade. Promotion limits exist only for key NCO leadership positions. Promotions to the grade of CAP SSgt or TSgt are permanent. Promotions to the rank of CAP MSgt, SMSgt and CMSgt are temporary. Minimum tenure must be met before the grade becomes permanent. Professional Development levels and time-in-grade requirements are non-waiverable. Request for waivers based on duty performance may be requested. The request should include a CAP Form 2 as well as letter of justification. All waivers to duty position requirements for the grades of senior NCOs (MSgt, SMSgt, CMSgt) must be submitted along with supporting documentation through the region commander to the National Commander.

[Eclipse]

6-3. Subsequent Promotions. Subsequent promotions must meet the minimum skill level and time-in-grade requirements and be considered by the appropriate Promotion Board. Time-in grade requirements are based on the member's grade in CAP and is not affected by a currently serving member's time in military grade. Once a member enters the NCO program, promotion is based entirely on the above criteria and is not affected by a currently serving member's military promotion. Members eligible for promotion may only be promoted if selected for the identified in Figure 8. Where "any position" is listed, there are no limits to the number of members promotable to the respective grade. Promotion limits exist only for key NCO leadership positions. Promotions to the grade of CAP SSgt or TSgt are permanent. Promotions to the rank of CAP MSgt, SMSgt and CMSgt are temporary. Minimum tenure must be met before the grade becomes permanent. Professional Development levels and time-in-grade requirements are non-waiverable. Request for waivers based on duty performance may be requested. The request should include a CAP Form 2 as well as letter of justification. All waivers to duty position requirements for the grades of senior NCOs (MSgt, SMSgt, CMSgt) must be submitted along with supporting documentation through the region commander to the National Commander.

Wow. Seriously, wow.

[pierson777]

6-3. Subsequent Promotions. Subsequent promotions must meet the minimum skill level and time-in-grade requirements and be considered by the appropriate Promotion Board. Time-in grade requirements are based on the member's grade in CAP and is not affected by a currently serving member's time in military grade. Once a member enters the NCO program, promotion is based entirely on the above criteria and is not affected by a currently serving member's military promotion. Members eligible for promotion may only be promoted if selected for the identified in Figure 8. Where "any position" is listed, there are no limits to the number of members promotable to the respective grade. Promotion limits exist only for key NCO leadership positions. Promotions to the grade of CAP SSgt or TSgt are permanent. Promotions to the rank of CAP MSgt, SMSgt and CMSgt are temporary. Minimum tenure must be met before the grade becomes permanent. Professional Development levels and time-in-grade requirements are non-waiverable. Request for waivers based on duty performance may be requested. The request should include a CAP Form 2 as well as letter of justification. All waivers to duty position requirements for the grades of senior NCOs (MSgt, SMSgt, CMSgt) must be submitted along with supporting documentation through the region commander to the National Commander.

Wow. Seriously, wow.

That was one of my issues with the new NCO program as well.  CAP officers may advance their CAP grade as they advance their military grade. So, why can't NCO's advance their CAP grade as they advance their military grade?  This combined with the six month time-in-grade as a SM before appointment plus the limited numbers of promotable positions per unit, makes it seem like a two tiered system.  Was that the intent? 

I can only speculate that this could be a bit de-motivational for NCO's.  They created more limitations for NCO promotions, and they created more complexities in the administrative process.  Ultimately, this detracts from the most important functions and activities of CAP which is our three missions; including mission training and mission readiness.

[lordmonar]

The intent was to make it a two tiered system.

The rules for officer promotions don't apply to the NCO corps....so any comparison is not applicable.....just like it is on active duty.

As for the reasoning for the six month wait (and this is just my own speculation...I was not part of the team at that time) is a) that they don't want to give anyone a position of authority in CAP until they have spent at least six months learning the ropes and seeing how CAP does things. b) Ultimately we are going to open up the NCO corps to anyone in CAP even those who do not have prior military experience....this allows them time to learn about being and NCO.

As for the limitations on NCO promotions.....again comparing it with the CAP officer corps.....we don't want to promote people to the top ranks unless they have done some time at the appropriate level for that rank.   It is possible now to make Lt Col with out ever holding a leadership job in CAP beyond Assistant Squadron XYZ Officer.   We don't want that to happen in the NCO corps.   If down the road we have a bunch of people climbing over each other competing for that one open job at group/wing/region.....then maybe we may rethink about the promotable duty positions.

Beyond that....the only thing that is more complex is the concept that they only hold promotion boards for squadron level NCO's once a year....which actually reduces the administration over head.   Yes it means that some NCO's may have to wait 11 months from the time they become eligible to when they meet the board.....but this is modeling the way that the USAF does business and they do okay by it.

[PHall]

Pat, the one thing I have a problem with is that a military commissioned officer can be promoted in CAP when they get promoted in the military.
Just produce that new CAC card and bingo, you're promoted up to O-5.
This new system for the NCO's does not allow that.  Why are we discriminating against NCO's?  If it's good for the O's it should be good for the E's.

[lordmonar]

Pat, the one thing I have a problem with is that a military commissioned officer can be promoted in CAP when they get promoted in the military.
Just produce that new CAC card and bingo, you're promoted up to O-5.
This new system for the NCO's does not allow that.  Why are we discriminating against NCO's?  If it's good for the O's it should be good for the E's.

My thinking is....and again this is speculation or maybe reading too much into the white paper....but in the future that option for the O's may go away.

And yes....we are discriminating against NCOs...we want to make getting to the top rank in CAP NCO corps as hard as we can...so that the top ranks mean something.

[Eclipse]

in the future that option for the O's may go away.

Never.

Happen.

Ever.

...so that the top ranks mean something.

Yes..."something"...

[lordmonar]

in the future that option for the O's may go away.

Never.

Happen.

Ever.

...so that the top ranks mean something.

Yes..."something"...

And your problem with that is?

[Eclipse]

With what, the "new" NCO "program"? 

It's wasted time, wasted effort, accomplishes nothing but making things worse, and
takes attention away from where it needs to be.

Otherwise, whatever.

CAP needs a reboot, I've said that about 100 times.  It needs to restructure the grades,
or better still, eliminate it altogether, but doing it piecemeal, with double-secret "programs"
that create another unneeded tier of membership, with no way to parcel jobs in the
NCO/Officer way within a volunteer organization, isn't the way you do it.

Nor is creating a new tier of volunteers members who think their grade somehow has "weight"
who are still subordinate to other volunteers whose grade has none, yet are in command
over the "real" members wearing stripes.

The double-think there is astonishing.

[lordmonar]

With what, the "new" NCO "program"? 

It's wasted time, wasted effort, accomplishes nothing but making things worse, and
takes attention away from where it needs to be.

Otherwise, whatever.

My time to waste....I disagree that that it makes things worse.....IMHO it opens the door to fix a lot of the problems with CAP's rank system.   

Takes who's attention from what exactly?

[Eclipse]

Takes who's attention from what exactly?

Everything and anything which is a distraction from fixing the trendlines is unacceptable.

CAP had the attention of the USAF C-Level and squandered it discussing uniforms and
a "new" grade structure which won't outline our current CC.

Maybe you'll understand when CAP Talk becomes an alumni board.

[lordmonar]

Takes who's attention from what exactly?

Everything and anything which is a distraction from fixing the trendlines is unacceptable.

CAP had the attention of the USAF C-Level and squandered it discussing uniforms and
a "new" grade structure which won't outline our current CC.

Maybe you'll understand when CAP Talk becomes an alumni board.

You are back to your old tag line....CAP is doomed!   That get a little boring after awhile.

[Eclipse]

You are back to your old tag line....CAP is doomed!   That get a little boring after awhile.

I'm sorry if the facts and data disagree with how you, and many others, wish CAP were doing.

Unfortunately, "wishing" won't fixing things, nor will hoping some savior shows up and fixes
things for us, nor will "rebranding" CAP.

The only thing that will fix things is accepting how bands things have gotten, making difficult,
painful choices, and a lot of brute-force effort by people reestablishing relationships and shoring up the walls.

If you started today, you don't see results before 2018-2020, and that's if you start today.

Meanwhile, the world isn't waiting to see how the story ends.