Updated CAPR 35-5 released today (11 Aug 14)

Started by Salty, August 11, 2014, 03:21:34 PM

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FlyTiger77

If my cursory look is accurate, the promotion review board for officers is still at least three members, none of whom are necessarily the commander (personnel officer, professional development officer and a player to be named later)(para 1-10(a)), while the promotion board for NCO promotions is the promotion-authority commander and at least five other members for a total of six members minimum (para 1-10(b)).

Interesting.
JACK E. MULLINAX II, Lt Col, CAP

MSG Mac

Quote from: NCRblues on August 12, 2014, 02:22:51 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on August 12, 2014, 02:09:51 AM


Are you screwed on this if your Major has been sitting in your CC's To-Do bin since April?

This is literally my posisition. I have been waiting for the approve button to be clicked and now... I'm not sure, but I have worked hard to achieve this.

Does this sudden change really make a difference for CAP? Nope...

And why now?

This change has been in the works for at least a year as shown in the CSAG minutes.
Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
50 Year Member

LSThiker

Just picked up on this:

CAP Liaison Officer to FEMA and CAP Liaison Officer to the Pentagon.  FEMA makes sense, but Pentagon?  What is his/her role?

NC Hokie

Quote from: NCRblues on August 12, 2014, 02:22:51 AM
Does this sudden change really make a difference for CAP? Nope...

And why now?

I suspect that there was some pressure to get this done before the current National Commander becomes the former National Commander in a few days.
NC Hokie, Lt Col, CAP

Graduated Squadron Commander
All Around Good Guy

Panache

Quote from: NCRblues on August 12, 2014, 02:22:51 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on August 12, 2014, 02:09:51 AM


Are you screwed on this if your Major has been sitting in your CC's To-Do bin since April?

This is literally my posisition. I have been waiting for the approve button to be clicked and now... I'm not sure, but I have worked hard to achieve this.

Does this sudden change really make a difference for CAP? Nope...

And why now?

To give everybody something to talk about at the National Conference.

Robert Hartigan

I wonder if probationary Lt.Cols. with only Level IV will be retained as Majors after their one year? A hard line Region Commander could make the argument that those Lt.Cols. without Level V get to be Majors again.
<><><>#996
GRW   #2717

Tim Medeiros

Quote from: Robert Hartigan on August 12, 2014, 04:53:14 AM
I wonder if probationary Lt.Cols. with only Level IV will be retained as Majors after their one year? A hard line Region Commander could make the argument that those Lt.Cols. without Level V get to be Majors again.
To be quite honest, I don't see how.  They were still promoted to Lt Col by regs.  The new 35-5 does not make a distinction that to be a permanent Lt Col you need to meet current requirements.


If it does happen, it'll make an interesting MARP case should the member affected chose to go that route.
TIMOTHY R. MEDEIROS, Lt Col, CAP
Chair, National IT Functional User Group
1577/2811

AlphaSigOU

Quote from: Robert Hartigan on August 12, 2014, 04:53:14 AM
I wonder if probationary Lt.Cols. with only Level IV will be retained as Majors after their one year? A hard line Region Commander could make the argument that those Lt.Cols. without Level V get to be Majors again.

That's going to be interesting... I hope the Region Rajahs don't get too capricious.
Lt Col Charles E. (Chuck) Corway, CAP
Gill Robb Wilson Award (#2901 - 2011)
Amelia Earhart Award (#1257 - 1982) - C/Major (retired)
Billy Mitchell Award (#2375 - 1981)
Administrative/Personnel/Professional Development Officer
Nellis Composite Squadron (PCR-NV-069)
KJ6GHO - NAR 45040

SARDOC

Quote from: EMT-83 on August 11, 2014, 03:52:17 PM
I think I just joined the Major For Life club.

I'm in the same boat.  I don't see myself going to Alabama for National Staff College or doing the Air University option to get level 5.

catrulz

#49
Quote from: Eclipse on August 12, 2014, 02:01:21 AM
I cannot imagine why anyone would want to be an NCO in the context of this
reg, promotion opportunities will be nearly nonexistent, or if they are plentiful,
we'll have Chief coffee bringer helping Lt Col Coffee bringer back at the unit in a few years.
There's also still the elephant in the room of no real NCO duties in the CAP paradigm.

I started as a SM NCO.  I only took promotion to command the unit.

I am split on this issue.  As a Level IV complete major with almost 8 years TIG, I was already a Major for life.  I wouldn't mind returning to the Enlisted ranks.  I mean what difference does it really make.  It doesn't insult me that I have to salute everyone.  To me the salute is more than a show of respect and courtesy it is also an act of pride, tradition and history.  They should have included a conversion table for people who desire to transition to NCO.

Okay beyond the NCO issue, there is the new TIG and training requirements.  I have read in countless threads that rank in CAP is not a matter of authority but rather recognition of service, training and experience.  I agree with this except for the promotion to LtCol which is a whole other animal and always has been.  Just like some awards are political, the promotion to LtCol is also highly political.  Folks have to decide they want you in their LtCol club.  Which in my opinion made altering this regulation redundant (for LtCol promotions).  You can be complete Level V, meet TIG and still not end up a LtCol.  Look I'm not bitter, If this was important I wouldn't still be in CAP!  I simply don't care anymore, but I do care about others that want this opportunity. 

CAP sends you tons of mail if you don't renew your membership.  They send pleas to renew, surveys asking you why you didn't.   The message from above is do everything possible to retain members.  Promotions (and recognition) are the impetus that keeps some SMs active in the program (to a great extent it substitutes for pay).  Hopefully, there is another reason for their service, that rank and medals, and I think in 99% of people the rank and awards are secondary.  There are others that simply don't care (about either).  I would have changed the training requirements, and I would have left TIG alone.  I also would have stipulated that the reg doesn't effect any promotion request that has made it to Group by August 11th. 

Promotions and awards are motivators.  I remember my troop motivation classes from BNCOC, the three motivators are punishment, recognition, and unit cohesion (esprit de corps).

Eclipse

Quote from: catrulz on August 12, 2014, 12:47:48 PMPromotions and awards are motivators.

Agreed, the problem for CAP is it doesn't understand >what< it's motivating.  It wants to continue to infer that
grade has the weight of authority and experience and is reflected by staff posting, yet the system and its loopholes insures
that is not the case.

"That Others May Zoom"

AirAux

Well, well, well, one more cog in the machine to grind CAP to death.  I hope General Carr will be happy to be known as the man that sank CAP.  I predict that within 5 years, CAP will have about 25% of the senior members left and if they don't do something to stimulate the cadet program, that will be gone also.  For a volunteer organization, it is too much like my full time 40 hour a week job.  Too many hoops to jump through, too many requirements that rely on others doing their job properly, and too little fun.  We all have better things in life to do than this stuff.  If not, then something is wrong.  Just as the real military has gotten CS, so has CAP.  Don't get me wrong, if my country really needs me to do some dirty work, I will be there, but not just to kill time..  The only thing we have that is irreplaceable is our time and CAP has become the biggest time waster I can think of.  As usual, JMHO..   

LSThiker

Quote from: AirAux on August 12, 2014, 02:00:15 PM
For a volunteer organization, it is too much like my full time 40 hour a week job.  Too many hoops to jump through, too many requirements that rely on others doing their job properly, and too little fun.  We all have better things in life to do than this stuff.   

CAP has always been like a full time job since it is inception.  Nothing has changed in the ~70 years.  If you think there are too many hoops to jump through, then stop jumping through the hoops.  You can accomplish the same work as a 2d Lt that you can as a Lt Col.  No one is requiring you to push through the hoops except those few that are mandatory (i.e. safety, CPPT, etc).  You are not required to complete Levels II through V.  If you are not having fun, then take the initiative to find a method to make your work fun.  Otherwise leave.  A local toxic leader is just as detrimental to the organization as poor leadership at the top. 

MICT1362

One other thing that this does (to an extent) is mean that you effectively buy/purchase Lt Col now.  As a member with 13 years who becomes eligible for Lt Col in 2 months, I now have to wait additional time and attend NSC which would not only require me to change where I spend my CAP time, but where I spend my money.  I did a rough calculation last night and found it to be roughly $1200 by the time you figured in tuition, travel, lodging, food, and misc items.  Not every member has disposable cash like this lying around.  If somebody wants to find that magical stash of cash and start paying for all of this, please by all means, let me know.  I have roughly 6-7 members who are immediately advsersely effected by this.

AirAux

"CAP has always been like a full time job since it is inception.  Nothing has changed in the ~70 years."  I got news for you, a lot has changed in the last 70 years.  I have seen the good times, and these ain't them.  Where do you think you are going to get volunteers that will do a full time job along with their real, put food on the table jobs?  Commute times are much longer today than in the past.  Real jobs expect extra effort just to maintain.  People are looking for instant gratification.  Do you think the new requirements for promotion are going to help with that?  People might as well join the reserves or guard and get paid for the same thing.  The only senior members you will be picking up are those with kids and after 5-8 years and their kids are grown, they are gone.  Furhter, they are there for the kids, not ES training for themselves.  The other adults you will pick up are military wannabees that can't make the grade in the military.  I do not see a bright future for CAP.  For those of us in the field, we have seen a big disconnect between National and Wing with the local Squadrons.  Someone has forgotten, who is supposed to support who.. 

Eclipse


"That Others May Zoom"

catrulz

I take no exception to the new training requirements.  I do however, find it hard to swallow, that a member will have to spend 4.5 years to achieve Captain.  8.5 years to achieve Major,  13.5 years to achieve LtCol.  Plus the expense to get above Capt.  Don't forget, it costs over $500.00 to attend RSC after factoring in transportation, tuition, room and board. 

Once again, many of us can't take AFIADL alternate course due to a lack of degree.  I would like to go to NSC just to finish my Level V, have wanted to for a long time.  I have not, because of the expense.

LSThiker

#57
Quote from: AirAux on August 12, 2014, 02:29:51 PM
"CAP has always been like a full time job since it is inception.  Nothing has changed in the ~70 years."  I got news for you, a lot has changed in the last 70 years.

Things have changed but the "acting like a full time job" has been around since the flying minutemen. That has not changed.

QuoteWhere do you think you are going to get volunteers that will do a full time job along with their real, put food on the table jobs? 

The same place other organizations and CAP continues to find these people.

QuotePeople are looking for instant gratification.  Do you think the new requirements for promotion are going to help with that? 

So people want instant gratification and CAP needs to cater to that instead of holding a standard?  Okay, every one wants a master rating without putting the effort.

The same thing was said when CAP introduced the new GT standards.  Oh we are going to loose so many GTMs because it is going to be harder to obtain.  Everyone always says the same thing after new standards are introduced and more times than none, it seems to be achieved by the members.

Besides, the new requirements are the same just a little extra time.  So not every one will get Lt Col, is that really a loss to the organization? 

QuotePeople might as well join the reserves or guard and get paid for the same thing.
.

No where near the same thing. Not even a comparison.

QuoteI do not see a bright future for CAP. 

Most people assumed the same after WWII. Odd what happened.


QuoteFor those of us in the field, we have seen a big disconnect between National and Wing with the local Squadrons.  Someone has forgotten, who is supposed to support who..

Cannot disagree to a certain extent.

AirAux

"The same thing was said when CAP introduced the new GT standards.  Oh we are going to loose so many GTMs because it is going to be harder to obtain.  Everyone always says the same thing after new standards are introduced and more times than none, it seems to be achieved by the members."

I don't know where you are, but our ground team members are down to zilch.  We spent 36 hours trying to get a non-distress ground team or UDF team out last month.  There are no ground team missions and people are tired of recertifying every 2 years for nada.  We have become a large investmetn with very little payback until or unless there is a disaster and then you have the paid FEMA and state and local teams that move in. with possible throwing us a crumb or asking for our aviation resources to keep their expenses down.  We are headed for aviator status only.  There is no need for the cadet program, recruiting is down, there is no need for the AE program, that stuff is covered on TV and the internet daily.  There is no need for ground teams, especially youth ground teams.  There is no need for cadet or composite squadrons.  We are an albatross and the only thing we can do is fly.  So, if you want to be a pilot or observer, enjoy.  What with the flight profiles, that is not even so much fun anymore.       

LSThiker

Quote from: catrulz on August 12, 2014, 02:58:28 PM
Once again, many of us can't take AFIADL alternate course due to a lack of degree.  I would like to go to NSC just to finish my Level V, have wanted to for a long time.  I have not, because of the expense.

The same can be said of the cadet program, which there you are under the gun of accomplishing it before your 21st birthday.  Want cadet officer, spend $150 to go to encampment plus air/car transportation.  Want C/Lt Col, well you need to go to RCLS or COS so another $150 or $450 plus transportation.