Criticism of Rangers & Blue Berets

[Eclipse]

So >not< wearing the berets outside NBB isn't an option?

Debriefings, "commanders do your jobs", etc., etc., that's all necessary, but not wearing the HMRS and NBB stuff, that's not?

There's your easy fix, but typical of CAP, a fewself-interested loud voices in the room prevent the clear and simple fix to the detriment of the very
goals they are trying to achieve.

The only NCSA specifically intended to train members in emergency services, NESA, doesn't get involved in all this plumage,
and strangely, doesn't seem to have the same issues, yet its members and staff are some of the most active and proficient
members involved in ES, including shaping national curriculum.

Interesting.

I think I'd agree with USAFAUX2004, the activities themselves don't necessarily promote the attitude, but tend to attract
those more interested in the plumage then the training, in the same way CAP ES tends to attract whackers and others of the ilk.
(Lordmonor likes to assert that if that is what gets them there, so be it.  I, and others, disagree). 

Were I the commander of an activity which had its reputation negatively affected by a hat or a patch, I'd ask the CSAG to "Please
stop trying to 'help' me by allowing wear of same outside our activities"...

[Luis R. Ramos]

As long as NHQ allows squadrons to wear headgear other than the standard cap, ie the Woodland hat, elitism will continue. In other words, I feel the baseball caps of different colors with squadron numbers are also elitist, and thus we should not tell those NBB people not to wear the blue "thingy" on their heads.

Flyer

[Eclipse]

As long as NHQ allows squadrons to wear headgear other than the standard cap, ie the Woodland hat, elitism will continue. In other words, I feel the baseball caps of different colors with squadron numbers are also elitist, and thus we should not tell those NBB people not to wear the blue "thingy" on their heads.

Flyer

At a unit with a squadron ball cap, >everyone< is wearing that hat, based soley on their assignment to that charter.  No elitism exists or is implied, unless you consider "esprit de corps" as "elitism", but at least in this case that "elitism", such that it is, is properly conferred.

A member wearing a blue beret wears it based on successfully completing an NCSA.  Nothing "elite" was accomplished, and they possess no skills
not locally attainable and in many (most?) cases are significantly less experienced in real-world ES operations then their active local peers, yet
elitism is not only implied, it is improperly conferred.

[68w20]

So >not< wearing the berets outside NBB isn't an option?

Debriefings, "commanders do your jobs", etc., etc., that's all necessary, but not wearing the HMRS and NBB stuff, that's not?

I never said it wasn't, and had no problem with not wearing mine when this was national policy.  The current argument is based on the reality of the situation we're facing right now.

There's your easy fix, but typical of CAP, a fewself-interested loud voices in the room prevent the clear and simple fix to the detriment of the very
goals they are trying to achieve.

Interesting, because my experience has been that the loudest people in this room are those who a) haven't been to one or either of the activities or b) allow one bad experience to taint their perception of them.  Surprisingly enough, we don't spend a lot of time talking about why it's essential that we wear the hat, just how one should carry themselves if they choose to (IAW the latest ICL). 

The only NCSA specifically intended to train members in emergency services, NESA, doesn't get involved in all this plumage,
and strangely, doesn't seem to have the same issues, yet its members and staff are some of the most active and proficient
members involved in ES, including shaping national curriculum.

Interesting.

And yet graduates of the AGSAR course are allowed special dispensation to wear a Senior GTM badge, even if they are not qual'd GTLs.  Also interesting, because that sounds like something "different" than other GTM2/1s.  It may not be as noticeable as a hat or a tab, but it's still there.

I think I'd agree with USAFAUX2004, the activities themselves don't necessarily or promote the attitude, but tend to attract
those more interested in the plumage then the training, in the same way CAP ES tends to attract whackers and others of the ilk.
(Lordmonor likes to assert that if that is what gets them there, so be it.  I, and others, disagree). 

You disagree with historical precedent?  They took away the beret in the early 90s, and participation plummeted.  While I find that incredibly frustrating (it's a great experience regardless of headgear, and that's why CAP members should attend), it's the way things are.

[Eclipse]

I don't disagree people are attracted to nonsense and bling, I assert CAP, especially in regards to training and leading cadets,
is supposed to be about more then that.

If participation plummets because a hat is taken away, you're making my (our) point, and there may well be an issue with the
activity itself.  I would hazard the same would happen with HMRS, which indicates the same thing.  Both activities are fine as HAAs
in an of themselves, afford excellent opportunities and new experiences, and should stand on their own, without being "special".

If you can't get people there without a free t-shirt, then something needs to change, and it's not "bring back the free t-shirts".

For the record, I don't agree with NESA grads getting badges unless they are qualified, and I think the instance of that happening
is near zero these days.

That one must "attend to understand" is a fallacy in the same way that "you can't understand, you were never a cadet" is.  One doesn't
need to attend these to have to deal with the ramifications of the participants when they return, which is where the issue is.

Also, to assert that NHQ is allowing the wear in a vacuum is also naive at best, they made those changes at the specific request of the leadership
of those activities and the specific wing, otherwise, why would they care?  And I'm sure if the NBB or HMRS leadership requested these
"special cases" be rescinded, the CSAG would have no issue doing that.

[lordmonar]

The only NCSA specifically intended to train members in emergency services, NESA, doesn't get involved in all this plumage,
and strangely, doesn't seem to have the same issues, yet its members and staff are some of the most active and proficient
members involved in ES, including shaping national curriculum.

And yet I have had more trouble with cadets returning from NESA and Encampments then I have had cadets returning from NBB, HMRS, and HGA combined.....Interesting.

Again.....I think it is more of a "I HATE the beret" attitude that is the problem then "I'm a Blue Beret Elite" attitude.

[flyboy53]

I don't disagree people are attracted to nonsense and bling, I assert CAP, especially in regards to training and leading cadets,
is supposed to be about more then that.

If participation plummets because a hat is taken away, you're making my (our) point, and there may well be an issue with the
activity itself.  I would hazard the same would happen with HMRS, which indicates the same thing.  Both activities are fine as HAAs
in an of themselves, afford excellent opportunities and new experiences, and should stand on their own, without being "special".

If you can't get people there without a free t-shirt, then something needs to change, and it's not "bring back the free t-shirts".

For the record, I don't agree with NESA grads getting badges unless they are qualified, and I think the instance of that happening
is near zero these days.

That one must "attend to understand" is a fallacy in the same way that "you can't understand, you were never a cadet" is.  One doesn't
need to attend these to have to deal with the ramifications of the participants when they return, which is where the issue is.

Also, to assert that NHQ is allowing the wear in a vacuum is also naive at best, they made those changes at the specific request of the leadership
of those activities and the specific wing, otherwise, why would they care?  And I'm sure if the NBB or HMRS leadership requested these
"special cases" be rescinded, the CSAG would have no issue doing that.

^ :clap: :clap: :clap:

The only NCSA specifically intended to train members in emergency services, NESA, doesn't get involved in all this plumage,
and strangely, doesn't seem to have the same issues, yet its members and staff are some of the most active and proficient
members involved in ES, including shaping national curriculum.

And yet I have had more trouble with cadets returning from NESA and Encampments then I have had cadets returning from NBB, HMRS, and HGA combined.....Interesting.

Again.....I think it is more of a "I HATE the beret" attitude that is the problem then "I'm a Blue Beret Elite" attitude.

It isn't about "I HATE the beret." Even in the military, there are those individuals who are attracted to certain career fields just because of the badge or the beret. If they don't make the cut, it's like their world has just ended. If they do make the cut, there are those individuals who have to be taken down a peg or two in order to be productive in that career field because they aren't team players.

I had one NBB cadet who came back wearing the SAR Ribbon and find ribbons with multiple attachments. When that was corrected, he started wearing an Army MP brassard on his BDUs. When that was corrected, he transferred to a unit where he was the only cadet in a chartered flight and is now essentially untouchable.

Don't get me wrong, such special uniforms/items are important because they foster comradery in a unit, but they become a detriment when they foster elitism. 

[SarDragon]

I think cadets coming back from that type of training need to be debriefed and then made to sit through a class on harassment and elitism.

We do this.  Extensively. 

NBB '06, '08, '12, '13

68w, I have never seen or heard of this type of debriefing...but I'm glad it is happening. 

It's been discussed ad nauseum in the dozens of other threads on this topic.  We (the Senior and Cadet staff of NBB) make it a point to discuss elitism, decorum related to wearing the hat, how not to carry yourself as a graduate of NBB and while wearing the hat, etc, etc.  We work incredibly hard to produce good Cadets that understand how things work at Airventure, and how to take those lessons home to compliment activities at their local unit.  Please notice that I made it a point to say compliment, not change.  The way we do things at Airventure works exceptionally well at Airventure, but I don't hunt ELTs the same way in my locale as I do when I'm driving a golf cart around Wittman.  I explained this numerous times to my own Cadets, and I know that the other TAC Officers stressed the same to their Cadets. 

The point has been raised (by usafaux2004 to be precise) that the problem lies not in the types of Cadets that bling produces, but in the types of Cadets that bling attracts.  We get many Cadets at NBB each year that are only there to get a hat.  Most learn very quickly that we have a job to do and that their fixation on a piece of headgear just won't cut it.  Some don't learn that lesson quickly, or at all.  As a staff, we work diligently to ensure that those Cadets are effectively counselled and mentored in order to limit the attitudes which have stereotypically been attributed to NBB.  I personally feel that every Cadet can be mentored in this way, however I will acknowledge that in some cases we simply don't have sufficient contact time to correct pre-existing issues. 

This brings me to my final point.  What we need, as an organization, is for Unit Commanders to do their jobs.  Please understand that this is not intended to be antagonistic to the hundreds of individuals that work tirelessly to effectively command their units, although I will acknowledge that it could be taken that way.  The Commander Approval for NCSA participation exists for a reason.  CCs need to take time to very seriously consider whether or not their Cadets are ready for and capable of NCSA participation.  If they don't meet those criteria, then they need to be counselled and trained until they are.  By exercising better quality control of the Cadets going into these activities, activity staff can do a better job of training effective graduates of the same.

Well said.

Once that string of dates is a bit longer, I think the problem will be alleviated.

[Eclipse]

And yet I have had more trouble with cadets returning from NESA and Encampments then I have had cadets returning from NBB, HMRS, and HGA combined.....Interesting.

In what context - this is more likely a quantity vs/ quality issue.  No one says NBB & HMRS are the only activities which cause issues.
These are the only two that purport elitism in an ES context.  And the only two that have authorized their cadets to wear special items outside the
activity.

Again.....I think it is more of a "I HATE the beret" attitude that is the problem then "I'm a Blue Beret Elite" attitude.

You'd b e wrong in my case.

[Storm Chaser]

For the record, I don't agree with NESA grads getting badges unless they are qualified, and I think the instance of that happening
is near zero these days.

NESA is a "100% task completion" type of activity; if members don't complete every aspect of the training and get every task signed off on their SQTRs, they don't get the qualification or corresponding badge.

[Elioron]

NESA is a "100% task completion" type of activity; if members don't complete every aspect of the training and get every task signed off on their SQTRs, they don't get the qualification or corresponding badge.

It's a reference to this (from CAPR 35-6 Sec 4b)...

b. Senior Ground Team Badge:
1) Be qualified as a CAP ground team leader in accordance with the CAP 60-series regulations or
2) Graduate from the CAP National Ground Search And Rescue School Advanced Course or equivalent program as determined by NHQ CAP/DO and certified by the school/activity director. Each wing and region is encouraged to host ground team schools with the intent of certifying their members. All schools must ensure trainees meet the current regulatory requirements for qualification in the specialty before the rating is awarded.

The Advanced GSAR at NESA qualifies graduates in GTM1 & UDF, not GTL (according to their website).

[68w20]

I don't disagree people are attracted to nonsense and bling, I assert CAP, especially in regards to training and leading cadets,
is supposed to be about more then that.

If participation plummets because a hat is taken away, you're making my (our) point, and there may well be an issue with the
activity itself.  I would hazard the same would happen with HMRS, which indicates the same thing.  Both activities are fine as HAAs
in an of themselves, afford excellent opportunities and new experiences, and should stand on their own, without being "special".

If you can't get people there without a free t-shirt, then something needs to change, and it's not "bring back the free t-shirts".

I disagree with your assertion, but I'm willing to entertain it for the purpose of discussion.  How do you recommend "changing" these activities?

For the record, I don't agree with NESA grads getting badges unless they are qualified, and I think the instance of that happening
is near zero these days.

Whether or not you agree with it is not the issue, that it happens is.  As for the instance being near zero, I've seen both Cadets and Seniors wearing it for that reason recently.  I tend to agree that just because I saw it doesn't mean it's an issue on a broad scale, but then I'm also not the only one throwing around anecdotal evidence as "fact."

That one must "attend to understand" is a fallacy in the same way that "you can't understand, you were never a cadet" is.  One doesn't
need to attend these to have to deal with the ramifications of the participants when they return, which is where the issue is.

I'll concede, but I think it's worth noting that many in our organization are woefully ignorant of what happens at these activities. 

Also, to assert that NHQ is allowing the wear in a vacuum is also naive at best, they made those changes at the specific request of the leadership
of those activities and the specific wing, otherwise, why would they care?  And I'm sure if the NBB or HMRS leadership requested these
"special cases" be rescinded, the CSAG would have no issue doing that.

This is supposition, unless you can produce some sort of evidence to either assertion.

[NIN]

68w, I have never seen or heard of this type of debriefing...but I'm glad it is happening. 

It's been discussed ad nauseum in the dozens of other threads on this topic.  We (the Senior and Cadet staff of NBB) make it a point to discuss elitism, decorum related to wearing the hat, how not to carry yourself as a graduate of NBB and while wearing the hat, etc, etc.  We work incredibly hard to produce good Cadets that understand how things work at Airventure, and how to take those lessons home to compliment activities at their local unit.  Please notice that I made it a point to say compliment, not change.  The way we do things at Airventure works exceptionally well at Airventure, but I don't hunt ELTs the same way in my locale as I do when I'm driving a golf cart around Wittman.  I explained this numerous times to my own Cadets, and I know that the other TAC Officers stressed the same to their Cadets. 

The point has been raised (by usafaux2004 to be precise) that the problem lies not in the types of Cadets that bling produces, but in the types of Cadets that bling attracts.  We get many Cadets at NBB each year that are only there to get a hat.  Most learn very quickly that we have a job to do and that their fixation on a piece of headgear just won't cut it.  Some don't learn that lesson quickly, or at all.  As a staff, we work diligently to ensure that those Cadets are effectively counselled and mentored in order to limit the attitudes which have stereotypically been attributed to NBB.  I personally feel that every Cadet can be mentored in this way, however I will acknowledge that in some cases we simply don't have sufficient contact time to correct pre-existing issues. 

This brings me to my final point.  What we need, as an organization, is for Unit Commanders to do their jobs.  Please understand that this is not intended to be antagonistic to the hundreds of individuals that work tirelessly to effectively command their units, although I will acknowledge that it could be taken that way.  The Commander Approval for NCSA participation exists for a reason.  CCs need to take time to very seriously consider whether or not their Cadets are ready for and capable of NCSA participation.  If they don't meet those criteria, then they need to be counselled and trained until they are.  By exercising better quality control of the Cadets going into these activities, activity staff can do a better job of training effective graduates of the same.

This is one of the best things I've read awhile.

I've had a thing rolling around in the back of my head about "teenagers and individualism" (versus cadets and uniformity) for the last couple days, based on seeing a couple dudes out in the parking lot of my apartment complex spending HOURS doing kick-flips and such with skateboards.  It struck me that much like some of the societal changes noted in the book "Bowling Alone" (http://bowlingalone.com/), teens today are more likely to participate in "individual activities" versus team sports, etc.  They're a LOT more individualistic in their approaches to sports, activities, etc.    Two guys standing in a parking lot kicking a skateboard into the air and complimenting one another on how cool they look != a sport.

I'm sure we all wanted to do that stuff WIWAC, too.  I know I was 15-16, went to a search & rescue school and got a nifty beanie, and wore it to the detriment of the concept of "uniformity" (to be fair, there were many others, more senior to me, who set that example, too).  So here's a whole formation of cadets in gumby hats (fatigue caps) and then there's two of us like raisins in rice pudding wearing berets. 

I wish someone had beaten that out of me.   

Oh, wait, they did.

[raivo]

It's a reference to this (from CAPR 35-6 Sec 4b)...

b. Senior Ground Team Badge:
1) Be qualified as a CAP ground team leader in accordance with the CAP 60-series regulations or
2) Graduate from the CAP National Ground Search And Rescue School Advanced Course or equivalent program as determined by NHQ CAP/DO and certified by the school/activity director. Each wing and region is encouraged to host ground team schools with the intent of certifying their members. All schools must ensure trainees meet the current regulatory requirements for qualification in the specialty before the rating is awarded.

The Advanced GSAR at NESA qualifies graduates in GTM1 & UDF, not GTL (according to their website).

35-6 is written very strangely in that regard - my GTM1 qualification expired years ago, but I'm still technically authorized to wear the badge because I went to NGSAR Basic 11 years ago...

[lordmonar]

I don't disagree people are attracted to nonsense and bling, I assert CAP, especially in regards to training and leading cadets,
is supposed to be about more then that.

If participation plummets because a hat is taken away, you're making my (our) point, and there may well be an issue with the
activity itself.  I would hazard the same would happen with HMRS, which indicates the same thing.  Both activities are fine as HAAs
in an of themselves, afford excellent opportunities and new experiences, and should stand on their own, without being "special".

If you can't get people there without a free t-shirt, then something needs to change, and it's not "bring back the free t-shirts".

For the record, I don't agree with NESA grads getting badges unless they are qualified, and I think the instance of that happening
is near zero these days.

That one must "attend to understand" is a fallacy in the same way that "you can't understand, you were never a cadet" is.  One doesn't
need to attend these to have to deal with the ramifications of the participants when they return, which is where the issue is.

Also, to assert that NHQ is allowing the wear in a vacuum is also naive at best, they made those changes at the specific request of the leadership
of those activities and the specific wing, otherwise, why would they care?  And I'm sure if the NBB or HMRS leadership requested these
"special cases" be rescinded, the CSAG would have no issue doing that.

^ :clap: :clap: :clap:

The only NCSA specifically intended to train members in emergency services, NESA, doesn't get involved in all this plumage,
and strangely, doesn't seem to have the same issues, yet its members and staff are some of the most active and proficient
members involved in ES, including shaping national curriculum.

And yet I have had more trouble with cadets returning from NESA and Encampments then I have had cadets returning from NBB, HMRS, and HGA combined.....Interesting.

Again.....I think it is more of a "I HATE the beret" attitude that is the problem then "I'm a Blue Beret Elite" attitude.

It isn't about "I HATE the beret." Even in the military, there are those individuals who are attracted to certain career fields just because of the badge or the beret. If they don't make the cut, it's like their world has just ended. If they do make the cut, there are those individuals who have to be taken down a peg or two in order to be productive in that career field because they aren't team players.

I had one NBB cadet who came back wearing the SAR Ribbon and find ribbons with multiple attachments. When that was corrected, he started wearing an Army MP brassard on his BDUs. When that was corrected, he transferred to a unit where he was the only cadet in a chartered flight and is now essentially untouchable.

Don't get me wrong, such special uniforms/items are important because they foster comradery in a unit, but they become a detriment when they foster elitism.

My point has been.....those cadets and SM who just don't get are the exception to the rule.......and should be dealt with accordingly.   Do we punish (and that is who all the others would see it) all beret wearers because one kid wants to be a horse's hind quarter?    If we followed that thinking we should all take off the USAF uniforms because of the salute trolls.

[Eclipse]

Badges are worn permanently regardless of current equal. That's one reason they are tracked as such in services.

[Elioron]

35-6 is written very strangely in that regard...

Yeah.  The way I read it is to award the Senior badge but reiterate that it doesn't grant the ES qualification unless they complete the required tasks.  It still doesn't rectify the fact that the Advanced GSAR only trains to GTM1.

[Elioron]

Badges are worn permanently regardless of current equal. That's one reason they are tracked as such in services.

Another thing that makes me wince, not that my opinion matters to what's allowed.

[lordmonar]

Again.....I think it is more of a "I HATE the beret" attitude that is the problem then "I'm a Blue Beret Elite" attitude.

You'd b e wrong in my case.

I don't think I am......Why take away the beret and ranger bling from people who don't even fall within your scope operations?  Really?
Of the hundreds that go through these programs every year.....we are talking about a small hand full of cadets who don't get it.  I have had that problem with cadets and seniors who have never even been to NBB or HMRS.   Why attack "elitism" in the case of NBB and HMRS and ignore it everywhere else (officers, cadet officers, pilots, comm).   Why is there elitism okay but the NBB and Ranger elitism not okay?

[lordmonar]

For the record, I don't agree with NESA grads getting badges unless they are qualified, and I think the instance of that happening
is near zero these days.

NESA is a "100% task completion" type of activity; if members don't complete every aspect of the training and get every task signed off on their SQTRs, they don't get the qualification or corresponding badge.

Not true.....attend the Advanced Ground Team Course and you get Senior GT badge...which for everyone else is reserved for completing the GTL SQTR.