Criticism of Rangers & Blue Berets

[PHall]

Can you folks who run NBB not award the beret if a cadet "just doesn't get it"?

[68w20]

Can you folks who run NBB not award the beret if a cadet "just doesn't get it"?

Is that directed at me?  I've participated in the activity twice as a Cadet and twice as a Senior Member in a TAC Officer role.  As a result, I haven't been in a position where I'd make that determination.

[lordmonar]

Can you folks who run NBB not award the beret if a cadet "just doesn't get it"?

Now that would be great.  But we know that it usually takes more then a week or two to find out if they get it or not.

[arajca]

Can you folks who run NBB not award the beret if a cadet "just doesn't get it"?

Is that directed at me?  I've participated in the activity twice as a Cadet and twice as a Senior Member in a TAC Officer role.  As a result, I haven't been in a position where I'd make that determination.

As an experienced TAC Officer, I would say you are in a position to make the recommendation, even though you don't make the final determination. Especially since you have both the cadet and senior perspectives to go off of.

[68w20]

Can you folks who run NBB not award the beret if a cadet "just doesn't get it"?

Is that directed at me?  I've participated in the activity twice as a Cadet and twice as a Senior Member in a TAC Officer role.  As a result, I haven't been in a position where I'd make that determination.

As an experienced TAC Officer, I would say you are in a position to make the recommendation, even though you don't make the final determination. Especially since you have both the cadet and senior perspectives to go off of.

To be frank, I don't want to speak for those that actually run the activity.  Some of them frequent this board, and I'll let them speak to this. 

I'm more interested in how observers feel the activity can be changed for the better, if indeed that's the right way to move forward on this issue.

[PHall]

Here's the reason for the question.  The vast majority of NBB "graduates" are not the ones who cause problems.
It's that last 15-20% who cause the majority of the problems. So how do we "fix" that?

[flyboy53]

Can you folks who run NBB not award the beret if a cadet "just doesn't get it"?

Is that directed at me?  I've participated in the activity twice as a Cadet and twice as a Senior Member in a TAC Officer role.  As a result, I haven't been in a position where I'd make that determination.

That isn't a solution and it would never correct the problem. The beret/ranger bling are recognized awards. The solution is to make it activity unique and NOT allow wear at the unit once the activity is over.
Keep it activity unique.

The thing is, once a NBB/HMRS graduate is back at the unit, they aren't going into the field as a NBB/HMSR graduate, they're going into the field as a ground team member. Why, then, would they be wearing a beret or uniform item that is not worn by the rest of the team?

[flyboy53]

Here's the reason for the question.  The vast majority of NBB "graduates" are not the ones who cause problems.
It's that last 15-20% who cause the majority of the problems. So how do we "fix" that?

Two ways.

Give the various special activities specific rankings.

Then there should be some sort of mechanism at the unit/group/wing level to determine the cadet's real motivation for attending the activity. Perhaps a question or series of questions determining motivation would be in order. Then the unit/group/wing selection board would make a recommendation to NHQ to assign the cadet to a different activity until it can be determined that the individual is better suited to attend the event for the proper reasons.

There needs to be room for a board to make a comment that a certain cadet may not be appropriate for a specific activity and needs to assigned to something else.

My experience with special activities boards, however, is that everyone goes to what ever regardless of how they rank at the selection board.

[Storm Chaser]

For the record, I don't agree with NESA grads getting badges unless they are qualified, and I think the instance of that happening
is near zero these days.

NESA is a "100% task completion" type of activity; if members don't complete every aspect of the training and get every task signed off on their SQTRs, they don't get the qualification or corresponding badge.

Not true.....attend the Advanced Ground Team Course and you get Senior GT badge...which for everyone else is reserved for completing the GTL SQTR.

You should read my post again before stating "not true". NESA IS a "100% task completion" activity. As I stated in my previous post, if you don't complete all tasks associated with the qualification, you don't get the badge. What you're referring to has nothing to do with NESA or my statement, but with CAPR 35-6. Graduates from ANY equivalent advanced GSAR course, not just NESA, can earn the Senior Ground Team Badge. And if you don't complete the tasks leading to GTM2 and GTM1 at NESA, you don't get the badge, which is what I stated in the post you said was "not true".

[Storm Chaser]

I see the provision in CAPR 35-6 that allows graduates of an advanced GSAR course to earn the Senior Ground Team Badge as giving cadets who are not 18 years old yet an opportunity to earn the badge, as ground team leaders (GTL) must be 18 years or older.

Regardless of how some may feel about awarding the senior badge to non-GTL cadets, one thing is for sure; the quality of training received in some of these schools, NESA included, surpasses that of many local units, which may not have the same resources to conduct a comprehensive GSAR training program. When I see a Senior GT Badge, I know the that the member is either a qualified GTL (current or expired) or completed advanced training at a formal school, in addition to attaining their GTM2 and GTM1 qualification.

I can see the argument in favor and against allowing graduates from an advanced GSAR course to earn the Senior GT Badge, but this in no way compares with the issues being discussed about the Blue Beret and the Ranger Tab.

(edited for grammar)

[Luis R. Ramos]

Storm:

:clap:

Flyer

[lordmonar]

Can you folks who run NBB not award the beret if a cadet "just doesn't get it"?

Is that directed at me?  I've participated in the activity twice as a Cadet and twice as a Senior Member in a TAC Officer role.  As a result, I haven't been in a position where I'd make that determination.

That isn't a solution and it would never correct the problem. The beret/ranger bling are recognized awards. The solution is to make it activity unique and NOT allow wear at the unit once the activity is over.
Keep it activity unique.

The thing is, once a NBB/HMRS graduate is back at the unit, they aren't going into the field as a NBB/HMSR graduate, they're going into the field as a ground team member. Why, then, would they be wearing a beret or uniform item that is not worn by the rest of the team?

Ahhhhh.....but why?

PAWG has no problems with their people wearing ranger bling.....and I got no problems with my members wearing NBB bling.

So why keep it activity unique?   Really.....why?   

Yes....there are a few people who come back with attitudes......Seen it with NBB, HMRS, HGA, Encampment, PJOC, Flight Academy, NCOS, BCOS, COS, and just a cadet getting too big for his own britches.

Attitudes no compatible with my ability to do my mission get corrected.

At the local level.......if you (assuming you are a commander or in the direct chain of command) think that ANY bling (even service CAPs for Officers, Ties for staff, brown T-shirts instead of Black for staff, different colored hats for staff member, oh and cords, berets, and ranger tabs......are detrimental  to YOUR operation.....by all means.....set the policy for YOUR squadron.

But.......and here's the big but, stay in your lane.   Why ruin it for everyone?

What works for you may not work for me.....and vice versa.

Cadet X comes back from the flight academy with this Solo wings and then feels he can't march in a flight anymore.....or is allowed to sport a flight suit anytime he feels........set the policy and correct the behavior.....but don't make it so I can't let MY CAP Solo Pilots wear their flight suits.

That is the only point I have been making.

IF.............IF there were a shred of evidence that this attitude problem was really wide spread......then I would be all for shutting down the NCSA and rebuilding it.

Which brings us back to the OP's question.........how bad is this "problem" or is just the 1% bad apples who are getting all the press time?

[husker]

And yet graduates of the AGSAR course are allowed special dispensation to wear a Senior GTM badge, even if they are not qual'd GTLs.  Also interesting, because that sounds like something "different" than other GTM2/1s.  It may not be as noticeable as a hat or a tab, but it's still there.

It isn't necessarily as much special dispensation as it is discontinuity between regulations.  The current CAPR35-6 was written in 2002; at that time, the AGSAR school at NESA was the GTL school.  When the GSAR curriculum was rearranged in 2004, we added the GTL school.   However, the 35-6 was not (and still hasn't been) updated to reflect this change.

As the one who physically hands out these badges to the AGSAR graduates each year, I certainly understand the frustration that results from this discontinuity.  I spend a fair amount of time each year answering emails and explaining this to unit ES officers all over the country after each event.  A simple wording change in the 35-6 would alleviate the situation, but it has been, shall we say, very challenging getting it changed.

(Edited for grammar)

[lordmonar]

Sure could....don't hand out the GTM badge until you complete GTM1.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Lord-

Is not what you say in contrast with what Storm says?

Here is the relevant part of Storm's message:

And if you don't complete the tasks leading to GTM2 and GTM1 at NESA, you don't get the badge...

So if they do that right now, that is, they do not award the badge if they do not complete those requirements, why are you insisting on them not awarding the badge if they do not complete...?

Flyer

[lordmonar]

Lord-

Is not what you say in contrast with what Storm says?

Here is the relevant part of Storm's message:

And if you don't complete the tasks leading to GTM2 and GTM1 at NESA, you don't get the badge...

So if they do that right now, that is, they do not award the badge if they do not complete those requirements, why are you insisting on them not awarding the badge if they do not complete...?

Flyer

No.

GTM1 gets you nothing in the real world.

You get the basic badge for GTM3, the senior badge for GTL and the master badge for GBD.

We need to change it to basic at GTM1.....(and then somewhere down the road do away with GTM 3 and 2)

But I digress.

What Storm was saying is that participants in the AGSAR school at NESA get the Senior GT badge for completing GTM1 at NESA.....where everyone else has to earn GTL to get it.    That is wrong in my book.

I Know that NESA is not handing out the badges to those who fail to complete the GTM1 tasks....which is a good thing.

Now the real question is.......and this is a complaint I have had about NESA for a long time.....why can't you get everyone to GTM1 in a week? 

But again....I digress.

[husker]

I would love to, but there aren't enough training hours in the week to get someone from "nothing" to GTM1 (while meeting the
evaluation criteria in the task guide). 

[Luis R. Ramos]

Lord,

That is not what the relevant regulation says.

You get the basic badge for GTM3, the senior badge for GTL and the master badge for GBD.

The Advanced School leads to completion of GTM1 and GTM2.

The current regulation says that the Senior Badge is awarded for being a GTL or a graduate of an advanced school.

If NHQ approved the curriculum change at NESA, they are comfortable with it.

If you do not like it, push for NHQ to rescind it.

Flyer

[lordmonar]

Flyer.....I know what the regulations says....I'm not saying that NESA is doing anything outside of the regs.

I'm saying that any or all of the following happen.

a) The Senior GT badge NOT be awarded for completion of AGSAR school at NESA.
b) The Basic GT badge be awarded for completion of GTM 1 not GTM 3.
c) GTM 1, 2, 3 be eliminated and combined into just GTM....where the basic badge is awarded.

And I am pushing NHQ to change it.

[Luis R. Ramos]

I am sorry, now your feelings came out clearer.

I do not agree with you about rescinding the award of the Senior Ground Team Badge to GTM1 and GTM2.

However when I initially qualified as GTM and GTL well, in 1998 or 1999 it was GTM then GTL. Back then it was clearer. So what you want... could be based in historical precedence.

I think the breaking into GTM3, GTM2, and GTM1 must have come around 2004 or 2005 when I left CAP and my quals expired.

Flyer