Lets make all CAP senior members follow the same program

[Eclipse]

^ That's support, which serves the organization as a whole.

I'd have no issue with some who hold an HRI serving as the PDO and being granted advanced promotion in the same way as a CFI, after they actually do something.

[lordmonar]

I hate when people try to subsititute adminstration for leadership.

So do I, but when the latter is lacking, the former is the only option.

I disagree.

And let's try to make sure we keep this thread on the right track - there are all sorts of valuable ways anyone can be of service to CAP.  In many cases we have people who join specifically because they want to do something "other" in their off time.  Far too often we live in the assumption that people are so passionate about their day jobs that they can't wait to get home and do the same thing for free.

Yep with you there.

How often do we recruit a CPA, and automatically assume they want to be the Finance Manager?  I know plenty of CPA's that literally hate their jobs, and have no interest in balancing someone else's job in uniform.
But...

...>if< they join the squadron and are granted a mission-skills advanced promotion based on their being a CPA, that is a agreement
that those skills will be used in that capacity, and if the member is not interested in being the FM, great, no problem.  1 yellow bar for you, and get working.

Yep...I agree.

The same goes across the board.  Lawyers who only want to be GTM's, aren't lawyering up anybody, and don't deserve to walk in a Majors simply because of their JD, etc., rinse repeat.

Yep....agreed.

Yep, we've done a lot of things the same way for 40 years, and for a lot of reasons, that is the root cause of many of our problems.

That is a two way street.  We should not continue to do something that is bad just because "we've always done it this way.  However, just because we have done it a long time does not mean it is bad.   You are asserting that the current system is bad.....and you assert the only fix is to throw out the system.  Okay......once again.....show me.

[lordmonar]

^ That's support, which serves the organization as a whole.

I'd have no issue with some who hold an HRI serving as the PDO and being granted advanced promotion in the same way as a CFI, after they actually do something.

Okay.....let's see some sort of definitive defintions of "actually do something".

And what about retired military/NCOs/Former cadets?

I got no problem with a pilot/CPA/Lawyer/Educator...having to wait say six months and get a tech rateing before their advanced promotion kick in.  The CFI will have to get his form 5 and MP rateing.   come up with some rules...and not just a shot gun "do something".

[CAP_truth]

Why not make the special appointments temporary grades while they are doing a job within the training, ex. teacher, CFI while their duty assignment is AE. When they reach the PD requirements their rank would be permanent. If they do not do the assignment for which they received their grade they would revert to the grade based on their PD completion.

[Eclipse]

Several of us already provided suggestions as to objective "doing something".

I would say a Tech rating in a specialty related to the "special skill".

CFI - Ops, or AE, as an example.

Why not make the special appointments temporary grades while they are doing a job within the training, ex. teacher, CFI while their duty assignment is AE. When they reach the PD requirements their rank would be permanent. If they do not do the assignment for which they received their grade they would revert to the grade based on their PD completion.

That's a good idea - and make an automatic re-evaluation like we have for Lt. Col's today.

[JeffDG]

Several of us already provided suggestions as to objective "doing something".

I would say a Tech rating in a specialty related to the "special skill".

CFI - Ops, or AE, as an example.
That's a good idea - and make an automatic re-evaluation like we have for Lt. Col's today.

It's too bad...Flight Ops was tailor made for CFIs!

[lordmonar]

Why not make the special appointments temporary grades while they are doing a job within the training, ex. teacher, CFI while their duty assignment is AE. When they reach the PD requirements their rank would be permanent. If they do not do the assignment for which they received their grade they would revert to the grade based on their PD completion.

That's a good idea - and make an automatic re-evaluation like we have for Lt. Col's today.

That is what I was more or less saying all along!

[JeffDG]

Why not make the special appointments temporary grades while they are doing a job within the training, ex. teacher, CFI while their duty assignment is AE. When they reach the PD requirements their rank would be permanent. If they do not do the assignment for which they received their grade they would revert to the grade based on their PD completion.

That's a good idea - and make an automatic re-evaluation like we have for Lt. Col's today.

That is what I was more or less saying all along!

So, just to summarize:

Make all advance promotions temporary, and subject to periodic re-validation, until such time as the member completes the ordinary requirements for that grade?  Such revalidation would be by the echelon that would normally approve such grade...so a Private Pilot would be validated by the Squadron/CC. a CFI by the Group/CC.  Someone receiving advance promotion to Major would be reevaluated by the Wing/CC and Lt. Col. by the Region/CC?

[Eclipse]

I would say that's reasonable.

[lordmonar]

Why not make the special appointments temporary grades while they are doing a job within the training, ex. teacher, CFI while their duty assignment is AE. When they reach the PD requirements their rank would be permanent. If they do not do the assignment for which they received their grade they would revert to the grade based on their PD completion.

That's a good idea - and make an automatic re-evaluation like we have for Lt. Col's today.

That is what I was more or less saying all along!

So, just to summarize:

Make all advance promotions temporary, and subject to periodic re-validation, until such time as the member completes the ordinary requirements for that grade?  Such revalidation would be by the echelon that would normally approve such grade...so a Private Pilot would be validated by the Squadron/CC. a CFI by the Group/CC.  Someone receiving advance promotion to Major would be reevaluated by the Wing/CC and Lt. Col. by the Region/CC?

Yep.....with a time frame of 1 year per level.....so a Lt Col USAF retiree would have 4 years to complete Level IV.  A Capt CFI would have 2 Years to complete Level II.   A Major AE Phd would have 3 years to complete Level III.

If in the mean time they leave their specialty area...no harm not foul....so long as they complete the PD program within the specified time frame.

End result is....your Lt Col would have the same PD level as any other Lt Col...he just got there in 4 years instead of the 10 years it would normally take.

[JeffDG]

Personally, I'd leave it up to the appropriate commander if the person is contributing.

Perhaps you've got a Lt. Col. who is contributing a ton to the program, but just doesn't have time for RSC or anything.  The Region/CC can exercise some discretion to keep that appointment active.  So long as he keeps contributing, leave him with the grade.

On the other hand, if you have a Major who took the grade and isn't doing anything with it, the Wing/CC can drop the advanced promotion at the first review.

[RiverAux]

Well, that proposal is certainly better than what we have now (assuming we were forced to keep the current system) and would work for a lot of the advanced promotions, but what about former military?  How would they be evaluated on whether they were contributing as expected based on their former rank?  Do you really think CAP is going to bust a former Marine major down to 2nd Lt. for not back-filling the requirements in time?  Human nature would dictate that he is probably going to leave CAP because no matter what you say, that is going to be considered a demotion in the eyes of everyone and reflect upon his character and abilities. 

[JeffDG]

Well, that proposal is certainly better than what we have now (assuming we were forced to keep the current system) and would work for a lot of the advanced promotions, but what about former military?  How would they be evaluated on whether they were contributing as expected based on their former rank?  Do you really think CAP is going to bust a former Marine major down to 2nd Lt. for not back-filling the requirements in time?  Human nature would dictate that he is probably going to leave CAP because no matter what you say, that is going to be considered a demotion in the eyes of everyone and reflect upon his character and abilities.

That's kinda why I support commander discretion.  A major would need to have the Wing/CC pull the plug or continue.

Hard and fast rules that constrain command discretion bother me much of the time.  They inhibit inherent flexibility and the capability to adapt to unique and unanticipated circumstances.

Personally, I'd like to see the option for commanders to provide advance promotion to any exceptional members, simply with the concurrence of either the approving authority level (ie. the Group Commander for a Captain) or maybe make it so that it has to go one level higher for this authority.  Get rid of the automatics, and encourage your commanders to utilize the stuff between their ears and exercise command judgement.

[Eclipse]

My first pass would be "same / same"?  Either you contribute or you don't

How do similar organizations like the NSCC, or USAC handle that?

I'm making an assumption that the CGAux doesn't confer anything to anyone, regardless, right?

[RiverAux]

Nope, in CG Aux you have to "earn" higher office insignia based on either getting elected to higher and higher office or holding higher and higher staff jobs.  For the most part, anyone holding a relatively high office has probably held elected office at multiple levels though it would be possible to go pretty far by just holding staff jobs. 

This is one of the reasons why I don't think it would hurt recruiting at all to get rid of advanced promotions in CAP -- CG Aux has just about as many members as CAP has senior members and doesn't hand out any of the same perks. 

[lordmonar]

Well, that proposal is certainly better than what we have now (assuming we were forced to keep the current system) and would work for a lot of the advanced promotions, but what about former military?  How would they be evaluated on whether they were contributing as expected based on their former rank?  Do you really think CAP is going to bust a former Marine major down to 2nd Lt. for not back-filling the requirements in time?  Human nature would dictate that he is probably going to leave CAP because no matter what you say, that is going to be considered a demotion in the eyes of everyone and reflect upon his character and abilities.

Okay.....I'll buy that.....but by the same token....you would never had recruited him in the first place if you don't let him have his oak leaves.

So we are back to square one.

Pesonally I think the Major would want to keep his oak leaves and maybe put on Lt Col....and so would do what he had to do to keep them.

And let's face it....with PME equivancy....they don't have to do RSC or NSC....the only have to get their tech/senior/master rateing in a specialty and do their required staff time.  Maybe SLS or CLC....but those are just week end classes and is not asking too much.

So....it would be a balance between your need to "equalise" the promotions and my need to keep the recruiting tool.

[RiverAux]

Well, that proposal is certainly better than what we have now (assuming we were forced to keep the current system) and would work for a lot of the advanced promotions, but what about former military?  How would they be evaluated on whether they were contributing as expected based on their former rank?  Do you really think CAP is going to bust a former Marine major down to 2nd Lt. for not back-filling the requirements in time?  Human nature would dictate that he is probably going to leave CAP because no matter what you say, that is going to be considered a demotion in the eyes of everyone and reflect upon his character and abilities.

Okay.....I'll buy that.....but by the same token....you would never had recruited him in the first place if you don't let him have his oak leaves.

No, thats your assertion, not mine.  I don't believe that more than a handful of people that ever joined CAP did so because of the advanced promotion. 

However, taking something away from someone is MUCH different than not giving them something in the first place.  I firmly believe that the same guy who was going to join anyway and said, "thats nice" when you gave him CAP equivalent rank to his military rank, would very much care about being demoted. 

[lordmonar]

Well, that proposal is certainly better than what we have now (assuming we were forced to keep the current system) and would work for a lot of the advanced promotions, but what about former military?  How would they be evaluated on whether they were contributing as expected based on their former rank?  Do you really think CAP is going to bust a former Marine major down to 2nd Lt. for not back-filling the requirements in time?  Human nature would dictate that he is probably going to leave CAP because no matter what you say, that is going to be considered a demotion in the eyes of everyone and reflect upon his character and abilities.

Okay.....I'll buy that.....but by the same token....you would never had recruited him in the first place if you don't let him have his oak leaves.

No, thats your assertion, not mine.  I don't believe that more than a handful of people that ever joined CAP did so because of the advanced promotion. 

However, taking something away from someone is MUCH different than not giving them something in the first place.  I firmly believe that the same guy who was going to join anyway and said, "thats nice" when you gave him CAP equivalent rank to his military rank, would very much care about being demoted.

Then you have the motivation for him to do his PD.
Right now the only motivation to do PD is the carrot of "promotion".  Get your Level II and I'll make you a Capt, get Level III and you can be a Major.

If we did not have rank....then almost no one would do CAP PD....IMHO.  And I present the number of Lt Col's with only Level I or Level II as an example of this fact.  They have NO incentive to do the PD....so they don't.

Some will not do their PD and get bent if you try to demote them......okay....so be a leader and manage them.

I go back to my original stance......if you want to make change....you must demonstarte that the current system is not working and that the proposed solution does not create new/worse problems.

That goes for my proposal too.  If the threat of demotion is going to create too much of a hassle....then let's do nothing.

[Eclipse]

Some keep insinuating that SLS/CLC (etc.) is a checkbox, and completely glossing over the staff time requirements like they were inconsequential, when in fact that staff time is really where the "do something" is happening.

[lordmonar]

Well, that proposal is certainly better than what we have now (assuming we were forced to keep the current system) and would work for a lot of the advanced promotions, but what about former military?  How would they be evaluated on whether they were contributing as expected based on their former rank?  Do you really think CAP is going to bust a former Marine major down to 2nd Lt. for not back-filling the requirements in time?  Human nature would dictate that he is probably going to leave CAP because no matter what you say, that is going to be considered a demotion in the eyes of everyone and reflect upon his character and abilities.

Okay.....I'll buy that.....but by the same token....you would never had recruited him in the first place if you don't let him have his oak leaves.

So we are back to square one.

Pesonally I think the Major would want to keep his oak leaves and maybe put on Lt Col....and so would do what he had to do to keep them.

And let's face it....with PME equivancy....they don't have to do RSC or NSC....the only have to get their tech/senior/master rateing in a specialty and do their required staff time.  Maybe SLS or CLC....but those are just week end classes and is not asking too much.

So....it would be a balance between your need to "equalise" the promotions and my need to keep the recruiting tool.

No one is glossing over staff time.