CAP grades

[DNall]

There is no grade of Sergeant (Sgt) in CAP.  Our grade is based on the USAF which abandoned Sgt quite a while ago.  NCO grades start at SSgt and go to CMSgt.

Go read CAPR 35-5 again.

Our grades are not USAF grades.  If they were, CAP would have eliminated warrant/flight officer grades when the USAF abandoned the warrant officers back in the 1950s. 

As Mike said, take a look at CAPR 35-5.  This is not a case of an outdated regulation simply needing updating.  CAP has Sergeants.

In some branches, an E-4 may very well be a Non-Commissioned Officer; in the Army and Marines, a Corporal (E-4) may be an NCO.  Since CAP allows for all former military NCOs to have NCO status in Civil Air Patrol, not just former Air Force, there needs to be an E-4 NCO grade in CAP.  "Three-stripers" senior members in CAP are Sergeants, not Senior Airmen.  The chart above is correct as originally posted. 

Our grades ARE based on that of the AF, they are just horribly out of date & behind the times (who would have spent time worrying about what to call an E-1 to E-4 that joins CAP & wants to keep his grade, I'm not sure it's happened, certainly not enough to cause an issue, especially since they are considered SMs by NHQ & all the rest is done locally).

Speaking of FO grades... is that just flat age descrimination or what? I mean there is zero training to become a 2Lt & it's exactly the same for FO. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for massivly increasing the standards & training for officer appointments to nearly mirror the national guard, and i'd include being 21 in that, but as it is I don't understand it. You know you can be an AF officer at 18 right? As long as you have that degree & complete an officer training program, the only age restriction is that you be old enough to join the military & under 35 I think it is for a line commission.

I've heard this shpeal on correct abbreviations for grade before. Let me tell you that the ones listed are the correct abbreviations for the AF & CAP, & in fact the traditional military abbreviations the world over. The excuse given there about bits & bytes in a computer documents - a la the year 2000 bug kinda thing - is EXACTLY why the Army when to the three letter codes. Frankly, I don't see the big deal. Anyone remotely familiar with the military should be able to understand what either abbreviation means & not be phased by it in the least. Now, if you're writing official memoranda then hell yes do it right (as described above & in regs), but if you're talking about a personal pet peeve or discussion on a place like this, then chill out!!!!

[captrncap]

Speaking of FO grades... is that just flat age discrimination or what? I mean there is zero training to become a 2Lt & it's exactly the same for FO. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for massively increasing the standards & training for officer appointments to nearly mirror the national guard, and i'd include being 21 in that, but as it is I don't understand it. You know you can be an AF officer at 18 right? As long as you have that degree & complete an officer training program, the only age restriction is that you be old enough to join the military & under 35 I think it is for a line commission.

I may be going out on a "small" limb but I don't know many 18 year olds who have a degree that would qualify them to be an officer in any US service!!!

[DNall]

Yeah I know that, but as far as the military is concerned, it's the degree & NOT the age that matters. Frankly if I were on the OTS selection board for doogie there I'd ask him why he doesn't pursue a masters or enlist first for a couple years, cause it would be hard for an 18-20yo to demand the respect needed to lead troops. In CAP though, we'll take a ditch digging moron (trust me on this, I got one in my Sq) and make him an officer, while we'd take a 20yo w/ an associates & a couple years as say a fireman & he wouldn't be good enough? That's screwed up.

Let me be clear here in saying I don't think we should actually make 18yos into 2Lts. It just draws attention to the fact that it takes nothing to become an officer in CAP & they probably aren't ready anyway. I'd rather see real requirements to be an officer regadless of age - like a couple years college & work experience plus some letters of rec & an interview just to start a 12-18mo OTS cycle. I just wonder if anyone can legitimately defend it the way we have it now.

[captrncap]

I agree that we need better ways to train officers. Just showing up for 6 months and you are a 2d Lt.

The biggest problem that I see if that CAP is a hybrid organization – military auxiliary and a corporation – with separate missions that appeal to different volunteers.

Other paramilitary organizations have general only one role – USCG Aux (boating, homeland security – non-conflicting missions), Naval Cadets (no ES, only cadet program) and American Cadet Alliance (cadet programs).

I am not an expert on American Cadet Alliance but their application and training programs for Officer Candidates is very detailed with many requirements before commissioning. (They even saying commissioned in their materials where CAP Officers are appointed.)

Back to defending the current CAP system, it makes some sense for pilots who only wanted to fly but does not for Officers that want to be involved in the Cadet Program. Again, other organizations have different "grade" structures to accommodate for that.

Again in the American Cadet Alliance material they refer to these as Civilian Instructors (except from ACAINST 1120.2A)

Civilian Instructor (INST). Appointment as a Civilian Instructor may be granted to individuals who wish to participate in ACA activities in a non-military and civilian capacity. This category of membership is extremely flexible in its requirements and is perfectly suited for parents, teachers, nurses, first aiders and individuals with specific skills or abilities. The application process is not as intensive as required for commissioning or appointment. Civilian Instructors have no military authority over other members of the officers' Corps, yet are eligible to fill any support billet (administration, supply, public affairs, etc.) within unit. Militarily, an instructor is subordinate to all uniformed members of the Officers' Corps, and senior to all Cadets. Instructors are considered to be members of the ACA Officers' Corps for administrative purposes only. Instructors are not eligible for command of a unit. They may only serve in administrative including training administration), supply and public affairs billets within a unit. They may not serve as the officer in Charge of a Detachment or a Pre-commissioning Unit.

It may not be perfect for CAP but may be something that could be a future model for CAP Officer training and development.

[Pylon]

Our grades ARE based on that of the AF, they are just horribly out of date & behind the times (who would have spent time worrying about what to call an E-1 to E-4 that joins CAP & wants to keep his grade, I'm not sure it's happened, certainly not enough to cause an issue, especially since they are considered SMs by NHQ & all the rest is done locally).

Perhaps you don't get it.  Our grades are based on the USAF, but the last time I checked my membership card, we are not the USAF itself.  If our grades were actual USAF grades, flight officers wouldn't exist either.  Maybe your opinion is that we should align completely with the USAF, which is a fine opinion; but it's not where we are now.  And that's not how CAP regs are, either.

The regulation about CAP having Sergeant's is not out of date.  It was updated in 2004, and up until now nobody has seen it needed to change that.  You know why?  Because CAP's NCO corps recognizes NCOs from all military branches.  And... funny that... *gasp* not all military branches do it exactly like the Air Force!!!  ( Oh no!  We can't be The Sometimes USAF Aux if we're not exactly like the Air Force! Nooo! )

CAP recognizes the NCO status of all NCOs, and that includes E-4s in the Army and the Marine Corps.  If they want to join CAP as an NCO... the NCO that they are... we should treat them the same we treat all other current and former military NCOs.  In addition to that, E-4s could have been NCOs in the US Air Force in the past, and there have been people who retired or left the Air Force as E-4 NCOs, and who held the title "Sergeant."  Face it -- Our NCO corps is very different... violently different... from that of the Air Force just on the basis of how it works.  Should it surprise you that one rank is called Sergeant instead of Senior Airman? 

By the way, E-1 through E-3 can't join the CAP NCO ranks, contrary to your statement, and E-4s can't join unless they were an NCO.  Pay less attention to the pay grade and more attention to the fact that CAP is trying to recognize Non-Comissioned Officers in our program with a commensurate grade, regardless of their military pay grade.

It's not out of date; it's perfectly in line with how our NCO corps currently works, regardless of how well or poorly that NCO corps is structured.  And that's probably how it will stay.

[SarDragon]

One small nit to pick, Navy E-4s are NCOs, too. BTDT, with the shirt. 

[DNall]

Lt, I'm not taking any offense at this at all, but that was a little condescending in tone don't you think? I've been in CAP a long time, joined as a senior member in 94, and I am in the military, in the Army in fact & hold one of those lowly enlisted grades, at least till the morons give me some wings.

I said BASED if you'll read what you quoted from me. The fact is that particular item has not been updated since the AF did away with the grade of Sgt, and it's not for the justification you used, but rather cause no one ever thought of it as an issue cause it just doesn't come up. With the exception of career NCOs who don't ever want to be an officer, most enlisted folks that come to CAP & wear their stripes only do so till CAP grade kicks in after six months, and regardless it's a locally managed thing that isn't recorded or recognized at NHQ, so even if it were an issue they'd never know about it. However, we are BASED on the AF, they are our parent, we do spring genetically from them, and we are dead w/o their continued & enthusiastic support... so yes, I prefer that we follow their example to the fullest extent reasonably possible, & use a little common sense along the way.

Capt,
Help me out here, I'm not sure I understand your logic. Cadet Programs officers would be pretty much first in line. Most of them would. There's a few about I'd prefer to see in  that civilian instructor role, but mostly they'd go by the wayside. ES would be a mixed bag. There's the gung ho crowd that'd be happy to get on board, and there's the flying club that thinks we're a SaR hobby club & the AF happens to be one of our many customers. That'd be an issue, but the NIMS standards coming out will whack some people around pretty good so I'm not so worried on that front. Part of what we came up with was actually that like the military the officer grades would be primarily managers & the enlisted or warrant side would be mostly operators, so the pilots that just want to fly wouldn't be pressured to help w/ AE for cadets & such. It's the left over pile that would be a problem. The civilians that come into CAP & aren't particularly wild about the military or Cadet programs or ES, but they hang around for years anyway. Some of them are useful & some are not, but officers they ain't. By the way you know ACA & the brits use almost identical systems? We covered both in depth in developing an AOTS model.

Sorry this got drug off topic by the way. This should have been a separate thread. Didn't mean to get all into this, just sort of happen.

[SJFedor]

Yeah I know that, but as far as the military is concerned, it's the degree & NOT the age that matters. Frankly if I were on the OTS selection board for doogie there I'd ask him why he doesn't pursue a masters or enlist first for a couple years, cause it would be hard for an 18-20yo to demand the respect needed to lead troops.

Doogie had an MD 

I'm personally happy being an SFO for right now. Even when I turn 21, I'm gonna feel funny putting Captain's bars on my collar, simply because it's the same grade that the readeals wear, and I'm not really 100% sure I've earned the right to be called Captain yet, other then I did the training needed.


I'm funny like that though.

[Major_Chuck]

Hmmm...my Honorable Discharge certificate on the wall from the AF says I am a Sergeant.  My DD214 lists me as E4 Sergeant.  My NCO Appointment letter and certificate says that I am a Non Commissioned Officer, aka Sergeant.

Of course the Army says I am a E4 Specialist but that is another story in itself.

I've been a Senior Airman.  Been there, done that, even have the T-shirt to prove it.  Not going backwards.

[Al Sayre]

The E-4 as NCO thing may have something to do with your Geneva Convention Classification (used to be in the small print of your green ID card).  I noticed that mine changed when I went from E-3 to E-4, and again when I went from E-5 to E-6.  I'm not sure of the significance, but I was told that it has to do with how you are treated as a POW.   

[SarDragon]

The E-4 as NCO thing may have something to do with your Geneva Convention Classification (used to be in the small print of your green ID card).  I noticed that mine changed when I went from E-3 to E-4, and again when I went from E-5 to E-6.  I'm not sure of the significance, but I was told that it has to do with how you are treated as a POW.   

I doubt it. The NCO discussion was around before we got the GC Classifications on the ID cards. I worked for the AF when they had SrAs AND Sgts, and the whining was rampant because there were folks getting E-4 pay who weren't considered to be NCOs.

[Al Sayre]

I remember those days, I had an SrA buddy that couldn't get in the NCO club...  Like I said, I not sure how the whole thing came about, but I do remember much whining on the part of the USAF guys.

[DNall]

Yeah I know that, but as far as the military is concerned, it's the degree & NOT the age that matters. Frankly if I were on the OTS selection board for doogie there I'd ask him why he doesn't pursue a masters or enlist first for a couple years, cause it would be hard for an 18-20yo to demand the respect needed to lead troops.

Doogie had an MD 

I'm personally happy being an SFO for right now. Even when I turn 21, I'm gonna feel funny putting Captain's bars on my collar, simply because it's the same grade that the readeals wear, and I'm not really 100% sure I've earned the right to be called Captain yet, other then I did the training needed.

I'm funny like that though.

I felt the same way coming over from the FO ranks to 1Lt, which was only cause paperwork was slow. I had maroon SFOs from the box, then had to buy gray SFOs at conf, then never put them on, had to barrow some 1Lts slides till I made Capt. That whole process sucked.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Speaking of FO grades... is that just flat age discrimination or what? I mean there is zero training to become a 2Lt & it's exactly the same for FO. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for massively increasing the standards & training for officer appointments to nearly mirror the national guard, and i'd include being 21 in that, but as it is I don't understand it. You know you can be an AF officer at 18 right? As long as you have that degree & complete an officer training program, the only age restriction is that you be old enough to join the military & under 35 I think it is for a line commission.

I may be going out on a "small" limb but I don't know many 18 year olds who have a degree that would qualify them to be an officer in any US service!!!

There is a law prohibiting 2nd Lt rank to anyone not yet 21.  We had a girl in my OCS class that was accepted based on the projected completion date of the class being after her 21st birthday.  When something happened to move our graduation date like 9 days early, the staff had to go all the way to the Deaprtment of the Army for permission to "Frock" her as a 2LT, and her date of rank was the day following her birthday.  That way she could graduate and pin on the bar with us, but she was restricted from exercising any command or authority (or collecting pay) until her rank was actually effective. 

[DNall]

Speaking of FO grades... is that just flat age discrimination or what? I mean there is zero training to become a 2Lt & it's exactly the same for FO. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for massively increasing the standards & training for officer appointments to nearly mirror the national guard, and i'd include being 21 in that, but as it is I don't understand it. You know you can be an AF officer at 18 right? As long as you have that degree & complete an officer training program, the only age restriction is that you be old enough to join the military & under 35 I think it is for a line commission.

I may be going out on a "small" limb but I don't know many 18 year olds who have a degree that would qualify them to be an officer in any US service!!!

There is a law prohibiting 2nd Lt rank to anyone not yet 21.  We had a girl in my OCS class that was accepted based on the projected completion date of the class being after her 21st birthday.  When something happened to move our graduation date like 9 days early, the staff had to go all the way to the Deaprtment of the Army for permission to "Frock" her as a 2LT, and her date of rank was the day following her birthday.  That way she could graduate and pin on the bar with us, but she was restricted from exercising any command or authority (or collecting pay) until her rank was actually effective. 

Army http://www.goarmy.com/ocs/applications_eligibility.jsp
At least 19yo at time of selection, & it ain't no 2-3 year program.

National Guard here SAYS it will take you at into OCS at 18, but that's active duty basic followe dby 18months of one wknd/mo & 2wk/yr OCS, then at least six months to recognition, and even that's BS cause you aren't getting selected unless you have some great skill they need or are already an enlisted tropp in the unit that sponsors you... still it's doable under 21 in the right circumstances.

I don't know about AF or Marines, I've never heard of any minimum age for selection. I can see it not working in your favor with the board, but there is no reason for it to be a requirement.

[Trung Si Ma]

... cause it would be hard for an 18-20yo to demand the respect needed to lead troops.

Funny,  I didn't have any respect problems leading troops (ours and others) in combat in that age bracket.

[arajca]

Y'all talking about the exceptions rather than the rule. Yes, there are those who blast through all the requirements for a commission by the time they're 18 and are awarded a commission in the military. HOWEVER, the vast majority (99.999997%) of new officers don't fall into that category. It has also been noted that it takes a fairly high level approval for it.

CAP doesn't have that need. The 18-21 age backet has always been odd. Legally an adult. Culturally maybe an adult, but not likely. Given the ability of CAP to enforce some of its own rules - or lack thereof - the age waiver for a 2d Lt in CAP doesn't make sense. The AF appearently wants CAP to limit officerships to the 21 and up crowd, therefore, you need to be at least 21 to be a 2d Lt or higher in CAP.

[DNall]

There's no such restriction in the AF. You're able to enlist at 17 w/ parental consent or 18 w/o. That is the minimum age requirement to be an officer in the AF (if anybody can find anything different let me know). You can see the Army requirement I posted there is 19 when entering the 3month process (OCS) to become a 2Lt. Not just the AF, but the whole military considers the education & intelligence demonstrated in a degree to be a qualifier, not age. There is only a maximum age, and then only for retainability reasons.

The reason CAP has FOs is cause a 50yo w/ a degree & 25years in business is not going to check their pride at the door to submit to the orders of a 20yo college student. Causing them to put aside that part of their personaility & conform to a military hierarchy requires an attitude adjustment that is so far beyond CAP's ability. Allowing that situation to exist would not favor good order & discipline, which you can talk crap about if you like, but if you don't have it in the field people WILL get hurt. You can also say grade is meaningless but rank via ICS in a mission is not, but what you let in your head in garrison will still be there in the field. Trust & mustual respect doesn't come with a job title. Let me ask you then, what's different about that situation & if the younger kid is 22-25 & a Captain?

I've NEVER seen any idication from the AF that they've ever even thought about 18-21 yos holding CAP officer grades. That is a CAP creation to disguise to the AF the low standards to become a CAP officer. It looks stupid to have a bunch of 18yos woalking around w/ officer grade, but then no less stupid than an all-officer ground team or a bunch of 60yo Lts. It's smoke & mirrors.

I understand why the 18-21 folks aren't made officers, and I appreiciate the practical psychology behind it. What I don't appreciate is what we require of 21+ members to become officers, and because that standard is non-existant it makes the under-21 FO grades invalid & discriminatory. No one has suggested making under 21 members an officer by waiver or otherwise. I suggest making them an Airman or WOC, along with every other member who joins, then to have an application for OTS w/ requirements like an associates degree, some letters of rec, & a competitive interview w/ a board including an AF rep; and that's just to start, then you need to spend a year of CAP w/ a mentor working on online modules covering the academics from AF OTS, cuase ultimately we need to rise near their standards to be part of their family if we want to be of any service to the nation at all.

[arajca]

Wall - Head. Head - Wall. Play ni.. the heck with it. I'm outta here.

[ZigZag911]

. I suggest making them an Airman or WOC, along with every other member who joins, then to have an application for OTS w/ requirements like an associates degree, some letters of rec, & a competitive interview w/ a board including an AF rep; and that's just to start, then you need to spend a year of CAP w/ a mentor working on online modules covering the academics from AF OTS, cuase ultimately we need to rise near their standards to be part of their family if we want to be of any service to the nation at all.

I like the way you think!