I'm a CAP cadet of almost 4 years.
Just the other night i was "arrested" (not sure if it was an actual arrest) but i was put into a police car etc for having a beer on the street.
I have never had any contact with the law like this and i would like to think of it as a lapse in judgement :-\. Im 16 btw.
Will CAP hear about this? Will it warrant a termination?
Thanks
Look at teen court (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teen_court)
They probably heard about it now, you sorta listed your unit.
See http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/u_082203092704.pdf (http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/u_082203092704.pdf)
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on March 25, 2012, 03:20:00 PM
Look at teen court (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teen_court)
They probably heard about it now, you sorta listed your unit.
See http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/u_082203092704.pdf (http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/u_082203092704.pdf)
That isnt my real unit, I'm not THAT stupid :P
Had you been arrested, it would be painfully clear.
Sounds like you caught a break, and learned a valuable lesson.
Quote from: 123Marine on March 25, 2012, 03:24:13 PM
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on March 25, 2012, 03:20:00 PM
Look at teen court (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teen_court)
They probably heard about it now, you sorta listed your unit.
See http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/u_082203092704.pdf (http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/u_082203092704.pdf)
That isnt my real unit, I'm not THAT stupid :P
You're still posting here.... ::)
Your unit will probably not know unless you or your parents tell them. And that is up to you and your parents.
Own up to it. Right away, own up to it. Show that you have the mature attitude of an actual adult and don't beat around the bush. Whenever they find out about it they will know that you had time to tell them and not telling them just shows immaturity, and cowardice. I would be willing to bet that they will be more accepting if you come out with it up front.
Not necessarily that they will sweep it under the rug or anything but it will likely make things better. Lying makes things worse.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on March 25, 2012, 03:38:14 PM
Not necessarily that they will sweep it under the rug or anything but it will likely make things better. Lying makes things worse.
I most likely wont let them know about it, but if it does come up somehow i surely wont lie about it. This is something i would like to keep below their radar
Quote from: 123Marine on March 25, 2012, 03:42:41 PM
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on March 25, 2012, 03:38:14 PM
Not necessarily that they will sweep it under the rug or anything but it will likely make things better. Lying makes things worse.
I most likely wont let them know about it, but if it does come up somehow i surely wont lie about it. This is something i would like to keep below their radar
That is your decision, all that anyone can do here is offer advice and that is all I am doing. You will make your own decision. But my personal experience is lying is bad, and hiding something bad is the same as lying in most peoples eyes.
As it happens, I have a passing familiarity with both California law and CAP policies and procedures.
And the answer to your question is: "Maybe, it depends."
Because it depends on a lot of things.
First, it is early in the process. It sounds like you got a ticket for a misdemeanor violation. You are still presumed to be innocent and have not been convicted of anything. What happens next in the criminal justice system depends on whether you are over or under 18.
If you are under 18, by law in California, this will be handled in Juvenile Court where the proceedings are confidential. What actually happens to you will depend on things like your age, your criminal history (if any), and things like grades in school, etc. Usually juveniles in this situation just have to go to a class and maybe do some volunteer work or pay a small fine. Unless this is your fourth or fifth offense, nobody goes into custody for this type of offense. You will be entitled to a lawyer (usually free), and the burden is on the prosecutor to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you were unlawfully in possession of alcohol. It bears repeating that proceedings in juvenile court in California are confidential and there is no way CAP can officially verify what did or did not happen. (Unless you tell them, which might be the smart thing to do for several reasons.)
If you are 18 or older, then the citation will be handled in regular adult court. Again, you are presumed innocent, entitled to a lawyer, etc. By law, the maximum punishment for a first offense in adult court is a fine not exceeding $250 and between 24 and 32 hours of volunteer work. As a practical matter, most first offenders are diverted. In my county, we normally dismiss the case if the accused simply attends an eight-hour Minor in Possession class. (Kinda like traffic school for the 18-20 set.) No fuss, no bother.
On the CAP side of the house, we do spend a fair amount of time trying to discourage cadets from making the mistake you are accused of and drinking before they are 21. That is why we spend so much time on DDR programs and classes.
Causes for cadet membership termination are listed in CAPR 35-3 (http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R035_003_B74F5A60C44CF.pdf). A conviction (or pattern of arrests) for an offense that would disqualify someone for membership (these are listed in CAPR 39-2 (http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R035_003_B74F5A60C44CF.pdf)) can be cause for termination. But it does not appear that a single conviction for the fairly minor offense you have described is the kind of thing they are talking about in the 39-2.
But ultimately, discipline and termination are things within the discretion of your commander. She or he has a great deal of flexibility when it comes to this kind of situation.
My gentle recommendation is to let your squadron commander know what has happened up to this point, and keep them informed about the status of the case. Usually your court date in either juvenile or adult court will be about 3-4 weeks after receiving the citation. Once you have been to court you should have a much better idea about what is going on.
This is also a golden opportunity for some learing and growing. Every one of us has done stupid things when we were your age. The key is what you take from the situation. Just like the cadet program, Life expects you to make mistakes and learn from them. If you don't recognize the mistake - or fail to learn - you will probably make bigger and more spectacular mistakes in the future. Some of those might have permanent consequences like injury or death.
So take a deep breath, talk with your folks or other trusted adult, and sooner than later sit down and talk with your squadron commander.
Feel free to PM me if I can be of any further assistance.
Ned Lee
(Former CAP legal officer.)
Quote from: Ned on March 25, 2012, 04:04:39 PM
As it happens, I have a passing familiarity with both California law and CAP policies and procedures.
And the answer to your question is: "Maybe, it depends."
Because it depends on a lot of things.
First, it is early in the process. It sounds like you got a ticket for a misdemeanor violation. You are still presumed to be innocent and have not been convicted of anything. What happens next in the criminal justice system depends on whether you are over or under 18.
If you are under 18, by law in California, this will be handled in Juvenile Court where the proceedings are confidential. What actually happens to you will depend on things like your age, your criminal history (if any), and things like grades in school, etc. Usually juveniles in this situation just have to go to a class and maybe do some volunteer work or pay a small fine. Unless this is your fourth or fifth offense, nobody goes into custody for this type of offense. You will be entitled to a lawyer (usually free), and the burden is on the prosecutor to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you were unlawfully in possession of alcohol. It bears repeating that proceedings in juvenile court in California are confidential and there is no way CAP can officially verify what did or did not happen. (Unless you tell them, which might be the smart thing to do for several reasons.)
If you are 18 or older, then the citation will be handled in regular adult court. Again, you are presumed innocent, entitled to a lawyer, etc. By law, the maximum punishment for a first offense in adult court is a fine not exceeding $250 and between 24 and 32 hours of volunteer work. As a practical matter, most first offenders are diverted. In my county, we normally dismiss the case if the accused simply attends an eight-hour Minor in Possession class. (Kinda like traffic school for the 18-20 set.) No fuss, no bother.
On the CAP side of the house, we do spend a fair amount of time trying to discourage cadets from making the mistake you are accused of and drinking before they are 21. That is why we spend so much time on DDR programs and classes.
Causes for cadet membership termination are listed in CAPR 35-3 (http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R035_003_B74F5A60C44CF.pdf). A conviction (or pattern of arrests) for an offense that would disqualify someone for membership (these are listed in CAPR 39-2 (http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R035_003_B74F5A60C44CF.pdf)) can be cause for termination. But it does not appear that a single conviction for the fairly minor offense you have described is the kind of thing they are talking about in the 39-2.
But ultimately, discipline and termination are things within the discretion of your commander. She or he has a great deal of flexibility when it comes to this kind of situation.
My gentle recommendation is to let your squadron commander know what has happened up to this point, and keep them informed about the status of the case. Usually your court date in either juvenile or adult court will be about 3-4 weeks after receiving the citation. Once you have been to court you should have a much better idea about what is going on.
This is also a golden opportunity for some learing and growing. Every one of us has done stupid things when we were your age. The key is what you take from the situation. Just like the cadet program, Life expects you to make mistakes and learn from them. If you don't recognize the mistake - or fail to learn - you will probably make bigger and more spectacular mistakes in the future. Some of those might have permanent consequences like injury or death.
So take a deep breath, talk with your folks or other trusted adult, and sooner than later sit down and talk with your squadron commander.
Feel free to PM me if I can be of any further assistance.
Ned Lee
(Former CAP legal officer.)
Thanks for the reply.
I am not from California (didnt feel the need to put in my actual unit).
My location has similar laws regarding confidentiality of juvenile cases. The officer claimed what happened was about equal to a speeding ticket. I personally would like to pretend this never happened and leave it behind me being that I am not known for this sort of thing. I dont exactly feel I should tell CAP being that it is not a very large part of my life compared to other cadets; I even recently thought about leaving. Anyway, thanks for the advice and i'll see how it plays out.
Cadet, my own personal position is that you should own up and be honest with your commander.
Doing so just might raise your standing in his/her sight.
Also, you won't have to concern yourself with the fear that "someone will find out." I don't like the "having to look over my shoulder" feeling.
If you were my cadet and owned up; you would get a letter of reprimand in your file and a long discussion with the senior leadership, possibly loss of position depending on how the discussion went.
If you didn't own up and I found out about it after the fact; I would drop a 2b on the boss's desk...
Sounds like a simple detention, but then again you are not giving many details. Hiding it as others have said can only cause grief in the long run.
Quote from: 123Marine on March 25, 2012, 04:22:27 PMI dont exactly feel I should tell CAP being that it is not a very large part of my life compared to other cadets
Mistakes are mistakes, that's what youth is about, however, other cadets do, or don't, shouldn't be relevant in this, other then serving as an example to you. Hopefully it will be another 5+ years before you decide to possess or use alcohol again.
Quote from: 123Marine on March 25, 2012, 04:22:27 PM
I am not from California (didnt feel the need to put in my actual unit).
It's one thing to not disclose what unit you are in. It is another to falsely say you are from a unit that you are not in, even if that unit doesn't actually exist. May I suggest you remove any reference to unit from your profile.
Quote from: davidsinn on March 25, 2012, 04:58:03 PM
If you didn't own up and I found out about it after the fact; I would drop a 2b on the boss's desk...
Based upon what? Even if convicted it is not a felony offense or a pattern of offenses. Your 2b would not be upheld.
Quote from: CAPR 52-16
2-5. Policy on Controlled Substances.
a. Drug-Free Cadet Ethic. Regardless of age, cadets will not possess or consume tobacco products, alcoholic beverages, or illegal drugs in any form while participating in a CAP activity.
The above is consider "misconduct" and is a justifiable reason for termination.
Quote from: Eclipse on March 25, 2012, 05:48:33 PM
Quote from: CAPR 52-16
2-5. Policy on Controlled Substances.
a. Drug-Free Cadet Ethic. Regardless of age, cadets will not possess or consume tobacco products, alcoholic beverages, or illegal drugs in any form while participating in a CAP activity.
The above is consider "misconduct" and is a justifiable reason for termination.
Of course, but that requires a "new fact": that the OP was "participating in a CAP activity" at the time of the alleged misconduct.
Otherwise, this does not seem very helpful one way or another.
Point taken about this not being a CAP activity, but considering the USAF / CAP DDR emphasis, and this is a 16-year old
insinuating his conduct isn't "so bad compared to others", I'd say termination is certainly on the table.
That's not the route I would necessarily take for a (presumed) first offense, but it's an option to the commander.
I was once young and dumb and full of it myself, so I don't want to come down too hard on this cadet.
I got caught out with alcohol one time when I was a teenager. My dad caught me trying to sneak in. In retrospect, I wish he would have left me to the cops rather than what I went through with him for about three hours. :o
As a former DDRO, if I were the unit's DDRO, I would want to be part of counselling sessions with this cadet, to remind him of the CAP and USAF policies on substance abuse and illegal consumption by minors. If the unit has a chaplain/CDI, having those involved could also be productive. I believe the aim here is correction of behaviour, not necessarily punishment.
I don't know if I'd go as far as a 2B, since I really don't like those and the way they're too often abused, but I know I wouldn't be too happy if the cadet didn't own up with me and I found out about it after the fact...maybe a demotion/suspension.
Quote from: Eclipse on March 25, 2012, 05:48:33 PM
Quote from: CAPR 52-16
2-5. Policy on Controlled Substances.
a. Drug-Free Cadet Ethic. Regardless of age, cadets will not possess or consume tobacco products, alcoholic beverages, or illegal drugs in any form while participating in a CAP activity.
The above is consider "misconduct" and is a justifiable reason for termination.
That is an opinion. I think you need to lighten up a little. It is possible to uphold standards without kicking a 16 year old out for underage drinking. Which would be better, to maintain the purity of the cadet corp or to keep a kid who needs a little extra attention out of trouble?
The guideline calls for the seriousness of the offense combined with repeated occurrences of the offence. If a one time underage drinking conviction is considered a terminal offense then what in your book are the minor offenses?
If you have a youth/teen court program, that would be great.
I volunteer as an attorney in one, and the kids who are in it either have the choice of real criminal court, or youth court. In youth court, they admit guilt, and as an attorney, I either represent them or the state, arguing for more lenient, or harsher punishment.
In youth court, none of this goes on your record, and punishment is typically community service, jail tour, drug testing, etc.
So if you have that option, go with that.
You have about a fifty fifty chance of your CC finding out from you posting here in the first place. Even if you didn't put anything about who you are on here, he can still find out. So just come clean.
Quote from: bflynn on March 25, 2012, 06:33:53 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on March 25, 2012, 05:48:33 PM
Quote from: CAPR 52-16
2-5. Policy on Controlled Substances.
a. Drug-Free Cadet Ethic. Regardless of age, cadets will not possess or consume tobacco products, alcoholic beverages, or illegal drugs in any form while participating in a CAP activity.
The above is consider "misconduct" and is a justifiable reason for termination.
That is an opinion. I think you need to lighten up a little.
Yes, it is, and one shared by NHQ (though again, primarily in the context of a CAP activity). See KB answer 964.
I already said that I didn't necessarily advocate a termination, only that it is an option.
"Minor" offenses don't generally involve the criminal justice system. In the case of alcohol or tobacco use by cadets, period, CAP and the USAF
have spent a fair amount of effort and expense in stressing that it is 100% unacceptable, so if nothing else, that message has been lost on this cadet,
(and by his statements, apparently on some of his peers as well).
Quote from: Eclipse on March 25, 2012, 06:01:37 PM
Point taken about this not being a CAP activity, but considering the USAF / CAP DDR emphasis, and this is a 16-year old
insinuating his conduct isn't "so bad compared to others", I'd say termination is certainly on the table.
That's not the route I would necessarily take for a (presumed) first offense, but it's an option to the commander.
I'm not saying my actions are mundane compared to others, I was saying many cadets base their life around CAP, I do not. And yes, this is a first offense.
Quote from: 123Marine on March 25, 2012, 07:14:01 PMI'm not saying my actions are mundane compared to others, I was saying many cadets base their life around CAP, I do not. And yes, this is a first offense.
First time you used, or first time you were caught?
Quote from: Eclipse on March 25, 2012, 07:15:24 PM
Quote from: 123Marine on March 25, 2012, 07:14:01 PMI'm not saying my actions are mundane compared to others, I was saying many cadets base their life around CAP, I do not. And yes, this is a first offense.
First time you used, or first time you were caught?
First time used
Quote from: Eclipse on March 25, 2012, 07:07:37 PM
Yes, it is, and one shared by NHQ (though again, primarily in the context of a CAP activity). See KB answer 964.
I already said that I didn't necessarily advocate a termination, only that it is an option.
KB 964 is specifically targeted at use during a CAP function. Lacking information that this was a CAP event, CAPR 51-16 section 2-5 does not apply to this situation. As Mr Spock would say, your logic is faulty, possibly clouded by your passion.
Quote from: bflynn on March 25, 2012, 07:27:34 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on March 25, 2012, 07:07:37 PM
Yes, it is, and one shared by NHQ (though again, primarily in the context of a CAP activity). See KB answer 964.
I already said that I didn't necessarily advocate a termination, only that it is an option.
KB 964 is specifically targeted at use during a CAP function. Lacking information that this was a CAP event, CAPR 51-16 section 2-5 does not apply to this situation. As Mr Spock would say, your logic is faulty, possibly clouded by your passion.
And you just aren't reading the threads, since I said that twice.
The point of the response, was that NHQ does, in fact, consider alcohol and tobacco use "misconduct" at a level which can be considered for termination.
Quote from: 123Marine on March 25, 2012, 03:24:13 PM
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on March 25, 2012, 03:20:00 PM
Look at teen court (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teen_court)
They probably heard about it now, you sorta listed your unit.
See http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/u_082203092704.pdf (http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/u_082203092704.pdf)
That isnt my real unit, I'm not THAT stupid :P
Quote from: Code of ConductMembers will not knowingly make false or misleading statements with the intent to deceive or confuse others.
Members will not impersonate anybody else. This includes a ban on falsely stating your grade, rank, position, membership status, or any other personal information. Members not wishing to use their real name may choose their username as a pseudonym, but will not create and use any other false names.
Quote from: MIKE on March 25, 2012, 07:33:11 PM
Quote from: 123Marine on March 25, 2012, 03:24:13 PM
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on March 25, 2012, 03:20:00 PM
Look at teen court (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teen_court)
They probably heard about it now, you sorta listed your unit.
See http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/u_082203092704.pdf (http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/u_082203092704.pdf)
That isnt my real unit, I'm not THAT stupid :P
Quote from: Code of ConductMembers will not knowingly make false or misleading statements with the intent to deceive or confuse others.
Members will not impersonate anybody else. This includes a ban on falsely stating your grade, rank, position, membership status, or any other personal information. Members not wishing to use their real name may choose their username as a pseudonym, but will not create and use any other false names.
I have since removed my unit
It seems to me that the idea of terminating a cadet for a first-infraction alcohol offense would be counter to the goals of the cadet program. If we are to build capable leaders, we should be encouraging cadets to understand their mistakes and learn from them. So long as a cadet shows remorse and the readiness to take that mistake and become a better person because of it, they should be allowed to stay.
Agreed.
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on March 25, 2012, 07:36:14 PM
It seems to me that the idea of terminating a cadet for a first-infraction alcohol offense would be counter to the goals of the cadet program. If we are to build capable leaders, we should be encouraging cadets to understand their mistakes and learn from them. So long as a cadet shows remorse and the readiness to take that mistake and become a better person because of it, they should be allowed to stay.
This.
Quote from: cadetesman on March 25, 2012, 06:40:59 PM
If you have a youth/teen court program, that would be great.
I volunteer as an attorney in one, and the kids who are in it either have the choice of real criminal court, or youth court. In youth court, they admit guilt, and as an attorney, I either represent them or the state, arguing for more lenient, or harsher punishment.
In youth court, none of this goes on your record, and punishment is typically community service, jail tour, drug testing, etc.
So if you have that option, go with that.
And This. I posted a link to that above.
Quote from: Eclipse on March 25, 2012, 07:29:22 PM
Quote from: bflynn on March 25, 2012, 07:27:34 PM
And you just aren't reading the threads, since I said that twice.
The point of the response, was that NHQ does, in fact, consider alcohol and tobacco use "misconduct" at a level which can be considered for termination.
Yes, you stated twice that the reg didn't apply, then you referenced a KB answer that quoted the reg. So I reiterated your earlier point.
In any case the decision doesn't rest with any of us.
NO need to throw him to the wolves on it if it was a first time offense, but I think a heart to heart with him and or his parents would be in order. The one thing that seems questionable here is his lack of integrity in regards to the dynamic.
My philosophy on situations like this is that you need to own every mistake you make. Mistakes are like debt, you own up to the fact you have it and then you pay it off with a lessoned learned, or you ignore them/ do not own up to them, and they keep stacking up until they take everything away from you, like in real life.
Now, just wondering, why were you drinking beer out in public? I know 15-18 year olds in my school who've had alcohol at parties before inside someones house, but never on the street.
^He has a point, do what you will about CAP but dont drink in public that was not an intelligent thing to do.
Quote from: thatonekid on March 25, 2012, 09:52:46 PM
^He has a point, do what you will about CAP but dont drink in public that was not an intelligent thing to do.
Giving advise on how not to get caught while doing an illegal activity isn't the smartest thing to do, either.
I'm not trying to be rude but, teenagers will drink there is nothing you can do or say that will change that. Thats just the way it is.
Quote from: thatonekid on March 25, 2012, 10:00:33 PM
I'm not trying to be rude but, teenagers will drink there is nothing you can do or say that will change that. Thats just the way it is.
I'm a teenager, I've never had alcohol. (That I know of)
As am I, however not all teenagers are good at following the rules.
Quote from: thatonekid on March 25, 2012, 10:00:33 PM
I'm not trying to be rude but, teenagers will drink there is nothing you can do or say that will change that. Thats just the way it is.
The majority of adolescents, especially our cadets, make wiser decisions.
The use of drugs and alcohol, is not an inevitable part of growing up. It is a serious mistake made by a relatively small, but unfortunately highly visible
percentage of young people. One of the CP's missions is to help inform and educate our cadets to help them make good decisions and ignore peer pressure.
Having involved parents and a strong family structure is another major factor. The example Mom & Dad set is a huge part of the decisions made by children.
hooray for idealism....
Quote from: Eclipse on March 25, 2012, 10:08:48 PM
Quote from: thatonekid on March 25, 2012, 10:00:33 PM
I'm not trying to be rude but, teenagers will drink there is nothing you can do or say that will change that. Thats just the way it is.
The majority of adolescents, especially out cadets, make wiser decisions.
The use of drugs and alcohol, is not an inevitable part of growing up. It is a serious mistake made by a relatively small, but unfortunately highly visible
percentage of young people. One of the CP's missions is to help inform and educate our cadets to help them make good decisions and ignore peer pressure.
Having involved parents and a strong family structure is another major factor. The example Mom & Dad set is a huge part of the decisions made by children.
this.
It isn't idealistic.
Again, don't give advice on how to avoid the police when doing illegal activities.
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on March 25, 2012, 09:55:36 PM
Quote from: thatonekid on March 25, 2012, 09:52:46 PM
^He has a point, do what you will about CAP but dont drink in public that was not an intelligent thing to do.
Giving advise on how not to get caught while doing an illegal activity isn't the smartest thing to do, either.
It's not advice on how to do something illegal, I'm giving advice on using basic common sense. Common sense is saying to me that atleast if you are going to use a substance you are not supposed to, do it where people will not be able to see you doing it, like in your house. I believe some alcohol in moderation is acceptable at a young age and takes the kick off to get smashed when you turn 21, and there after. Kind of like a flu shot, it most likely will work, but that doesn't mean it always will. That's just my opinion, said using my freedom of speech that people have paid their lives for all of us to use. Off topic, though.
A big problem with teenage drinking is who you're with when you do it. Drinking under supervision of your parents usually means you'll not be drinking more than you should. Drinking with friends hyped up to party and "enjoy" themselves leads to alcoholism, public intoxication, or DUI, mainly because of peer pressure making you want to be the "life of the party."
EP, nobody is giving advice to avoid the police. And for a lot of cadets, their parents make the police look like the peace corps when it comes towards alcohol. Nobody has said anything about trying to clear your system before a drug test, how to hide alcohol in plain sight, or anything of that nature. Look at it in the sense that it made no sense to be drinking in public, which for something already "illegal", adds more trouble to the mix and is just plain stupid.
I agree with some of that, it wasn't advice it was a simple statement of fact, any advice you read into it is puerly your own reading, how ever I would add that he should make a better decision next time, weather that is drinking in his house or not at all is up to him.
Quote from: thatonekid on March 25, 2012, 10:30:12 PM
I agree with some of that it wasn't advice it was a simple statement of fact, any advice you read into it is purly your own reading, how ever i would ad that he should make a better decision next time, weather that is drinking in his house or not at all is up to him.
+1. I should've said that.
Drink responsibly, and at your own risk.
I personaly think that its better to learn how to drink responsibly when you are in your teens, with the help of your parents, than to try and figure it out on your own in college.
Quote from: thatonekid on March 25, 2012, 10:40:01 PM
I personaly think that its better to learn how to drink responsibly when you are in your teens, with the help of your parents, than to try and figure it out on your own in college.
Or, you know. Just not drink until you're an adult.
I would prefer to not have a bunch of drunken buffoons running around while im trying to sleep or study or some perform some other important task.
How ever this is simply my opinion and that is yours and reprising the usual arguments is likely to get us nowhere but irritated.
Quote from: thatonekid on March 25, 2012, 10:40:01 PM
I personaly think that its better to learn how to drink responsibly when you are in your teens, with the help of your parents, than to try and figure it out on your own in college.
I am in college. Still haven't had alcohol or drugs.
Quote from: thatonekid on March 25, 2012, 10:30:12 PM
I agree with some of that, it wasn't advice it was a simple statement of fact, any advice you read into it is puerly purely your own reading, how ever I would add that he should make a better decision next time, weather whether that is drinking in his house or not at all is up to him.
FTFY
SO you say he could do something illegal, just under the supervision of an adult?
http://staugustine.firstcoastnews.com/news/news/68342-verdict-party-mom-upheld-appellate-level (http://staugustine.firstcoastnews.com/news/news/68342-verdict-party-mom-upheld-appellate-level)
Kids that start drinking under the age of 15 are 4 times more likely to have alcohol dependence.
QuoteBrain Effects—Scientists currently are examining just how alcohol affects the developing brain, but it's a difficult task. Subtle changes in the brain may be difficult to detect but still have a significant impact on long-term thinking and memory skills. Add to this the fact that adolescent brains are still maturing, and the study of alcohol's effects becomes even more complex. Research has shown that animals fed alcohol during this critical developmental stage continue to show long-lasting impairment from alcohol as they age (47). It's simply not known how alcohol will affect the long-term memory and learning skills of people who began drinking heavily as adolescents.
Liver Effects—Elevated liver enzymes, indicating some degree of liver damage, have been found in some adolescents who drink alcohol (48). Young drinkers who are overweight or obese showed elevated liver enzymes even with only moderate levels of drinking (49).
Growth and Endocrine Effects—In both males and females, puberty is a period associated with marked hormonal changes, including increases in the sex hormones, estrogen and testosterone. These hormones, in turn, increase production of other hormones and growth factors (50), which are vital for normal organ development. Drinking alcohol during this period of rapid growth and development (i.e., prior to or during puberty) may upset the critical hormonal balance necessary for normal development of organs, muscles, and bones. Studies in animals also show that consuming alcohol during puberty adversely affects the maturation of the reproductive system (51).
QuoteOne-third of middle school students get their alcohol from their own parents or from a friend's parents or guardians, the study found.
The research was conducted in 58 Chicago-area public schools with surveys of 3,709 students. The surveys were given and the beginning and the end of each year for sixth, seventh and eighth grade students.
Quote"Early onset of drinking leads to a long list of alcohol-related problems. It is important to educate parents about the consequences of alcohol use at a young age and try to prevent them from being their child's primary source of alcohol." comments the lead author Mary O Hearst
This is no joke, alcohol is bad. Research has shown that many parents give their kids alcohol. Underage drinking increases mental and physical health risks.
Quote from: thatonekid on March 25, 2012, 10:58:10 PM
How ever this is simply my opinion and that is yours and reprising the usual arguments is likely to get us nowhere but irritated.
Quote from: thatonekid on March 25, 2012, 11:03:31 PM
Quote from: thatonekid on March 25, 2012, 10:58:10 PM
How ever this is simply my opinion and that is yours and reprising the usual arguments is likely to get us nowhere but irritated.
I have sources. You have opinion statements.
1) Congrats, but not really relevant were not talking about you were talking about teenagers in general.
2) You will not twist my words, we are talkning about alcohol here not heroin or bank robbing. I applaud your finding statistics to support your oppinion but, although I didnt say it I thought it was given that we were talking about the older portion of teens i.e. at least highschool, and also the stats you found or for kids that use alcohol much more than what anyone could say was responsible for any age group.
Make sure your stats are relevant next time.
Quote from: thatonekid on March 25, 2012, 11:14:27 PMthe stats you found or for kids that use alcohol much more than what anyone could say was responsible for any age group.
There is no way for anyone under 21 to "use alcohol responsibly", this isn't France.
Thats not really what I was saying but im not going to argue that.
Then what are you saying?
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on March 25, 2012, 11:04:59 PM
Quote from: thatonekid on March 25, 2012, 11:03:31 PM
Quote from: thatonekid on March 25, 2012, 10:58:10 PM
How ever this is simply my opinion and that is yours and reprising the usual arguments is likely to get us nowhere but irritated.
I have sources. You have opinion statements.
I hope you understand that I can a doctor to run studies saying that it makes kids 4 times less likely to have alcoholic dependence, and back it up with evidence (I've learned this through the fact that some person I know in college pulled up reference from CA about how pot has much more medical benifits than negative side effects). That's not saying that what you've provided is BS, but I think we should use real world situations here.
I am related to a few drunkards, sadly. I've talked with them before, and they all said they never drank before the legal age limit. Their parents and a good family friend said they were telling the truth. A teacher in my school drank irresponsibly has a kid, but then his friend got killed in an accident he learned to drink responsibly before the age of 18, and is now in the Army Guard and is possibly the most respected teacher in my school. A friend from Europe said that in his country, and across the continent, parents who let their teens drink under supervision have kids that drink responsibly and have no criminal records pertaining to drunk driving, while those not under supervision were much more likely to become alcoholics and drive drunk.
From a quick google search, it seems like a lot of Europeans agree with me on the adult supervision idea.
Do not get my arguement to mean I support unsupervised drinking, public drinking, or even trying to lower the drinking age. I just have too much facts pointing towards my side of the arguement to defect to not letting kids drink under supervision.
http://www.findingdulcinea.com/news/health/May-June-08/Underage-Drinking--European-Parents-May-Know-Best.html (http://www.findingdulcinea.com/news/health/May-June-08/Underage-Drinking--European-Parents-May-Know-Best.html) Just one of the many things I can reference online from a quick google search supporting my statement.
One last thing, has much has we can argue about this, we all have our opinions and beliefs, and we will think our beliefs are facts. This arguement is dead end because neither side is going to budge.
Quote from: thatonekid on March 25, 2012, 11:14:27 PM
1) Congrats, but not really relevant were not talking about you were talking about teenagers in general.
2) You will not twist my words, we are talkning about alcohol here not heroin or bank robbing. I applaud your finding statistics to support your oppinion but, although I didnt say it I thought it was given that we were talking about the older portion of teens i.e. at least highschool, and also the stats you found or for kids that use alcohol much more than what anyone could say was responsible for any age group.
I never talked about Heroin or bank robbers.
(http://imageserver.ebscohost.com/img/imageqv/actual/73t/20100601/14259988.jpg?ephost1=dGJyMNLe80Sepq84y9fwOLCmr0qepq5Srqa4SK6WxWXS)
(http://imageserver.ebscohost.com/img/imageqv/actual/73t/20100601/14259989.jpg?ephost1=dGJyMNLe80Sepq84y9fwOLCmr0qepq5Srqa4SK6WxWXS)
(http://imageserver.ebscohost.com/img/imageqv/actual/73t/20100601/14259992.jpg?ephost1=dGJyMNLe80Sepq84y9fwOLCmr0qepq5Srqa4SK6WxWXS)
(http://imageserver.ebscohost.com/img/imageqv/actual/73t/20100601/14259990.jpg?ephost1=dGJyMNLe80Sepq84y9fwOLCmr0qepq5Srqa4SK6WxWXS)
It is legal in my state for a minor to drink under the supervision of a direct adult family member of legal drinking age (of course with reason).
I dont need you guys arguing on something I am asking for advice on. You all only seem to be trying to send me on a guilt trip.
Despite you opinions, I have concluded I should keep this incident to myself. I don't believe a volunteer organization that my parents pay for have any need to hear about something that in the court of law is kept confidential. I understand it is totally anti-integrity and against CAP beliefs. This decision also comes from the fact that I already planned to leave CAP after the summer. Personally I believe I have gotten all I can out of the organization. I DON'T plan on drinking in the near future, and I DON'T plan on becoming an alcoholic, despite what your probably outdated sources are saying.
Why are you waiting until the end of summer???
Quote from: Littleguy on March 25, 2012, 11:33:29 PM
One last thing, has much has we can argue about this, we all have our opinions and beliefs, and we will think our beliefs are facts. This arguement is dead end because neither side is going to budge.
Amen Brother ;)
@Eclipse, if you read what I said you will notice that I said that the kids in the study were drinking more than could be responsible
for any age group.
@Extremepredjudice, we were talking about drinking specifically not just things that are illegal.
@123 Marine I appoligise for Hijacking your post I was just arguing, again I appoligise. (Thats probly what i would have done anyway)
Quote from: Woodsy on March 25, 2012, 11:44:10 PM
Why are you waiting until the end of summer???
NCSA's etc. I figure it would also be better to start the new school year "fresh".
Ahh, I suspected as much. You want to get as much as you can before you ditch it. Integrity at it's finest!
Quote from: 123Marine on March 25, 2012, 11:42:01 PM
I DON'T plan on becoming an alcoholic, despite what your probably outdated sources are saying.
No one plans on becoming an alcoholic, it just happens. Regardless of what happens to you in the legal system or in CAP, please don't ignore life advice on alcohol just because you don't plan on becoming an alcoholic.
Quote from: 123Marine on March 25, 2012, 11:42:01 PM
It is legal in my state for a minor to drink under the supervision of a direct adult family member of legal drinking age (of course with reason).
I dont need you guys arguing on something I am asking for advice on. You all only seem to be trying to send me on a guilt trip.
Despite you opinions, I have concluded I should keep this incident to myself. I don't believe a volunteer organization that my parents pay for have any need to hear about something that in the court of law is kept confidential. I understand it is totally anti-integrity and against CAP beliefs. This decision also comes from the fact that I already planned to leave CAP after the summer. Personally I believe I have gotten all I can out of the organization. I DON'T plan on drinking in the near future, and I DON'T plan on becoming an alcoholic, despite what your probably outdated sources are saying.
No one is guilt tripping you. You probably just feel guilty on your own. We're arguing because it is our CAPTalk nature to argue, and really none of it has much to do with you now. It stopped really being about you on page 2-ish.
(http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/7039/stockphotokidswithlapto.jpg)
Not Winnable... just grab a bowl and have some fun.
Quote from: Woodsy on March 25, 2012, 11:49:48 PM
Ahh, I suspected as much. You want to get as much as you can before you ditch it. Integrity at it's finest!
I know I'm not the best cadet (evidently) but I think people take CAP way too seriously. It is beginning to grind my gears a bit. I want to live a normal teenage life without the responsibility of CAP hanging over my head. I want my pre-CAP life back I guess
hey guys ...this is all done now, no more.
Two entirely separate cultures between the US and Europe especially when it comes to drinking. Here in the the US it is illegal for anyone under age to purchase, consume or posses alcohol. In Europe the thought process varies by country and even then depending on the provence or state you are in. There have been many verdicts handed down and upheld in appellate courts for parents who allowed their children to drink in their home.
Does underage drinking occur yes it does but it can be curtailed through active supervision to negate the drinking and discipline by parents/guardians when it has occurred.
QuoteWe're arguing because it is our CAPTalk nature to argue, and really none of it has much to do with you now
YESQuote from: 123Marine on March 25, 2012, 11:42:01 PM
It is legal in my state for a minor to drink under the supervision of a direct adult family member of legal drinking age (of course with reason).
I dont need you guys arguing on something I am asking for advice on. You all only seem to be trying to send me on a guilt trip.
Despite you opinions, I have concluded I should keep this incident to myself. I don't believe a volunteer organization that my parents pay for have any need to hear about something that in the court of law is kept confidential. I understand it is totally anti-integrity and against CAP beliefs. This decision also comes from the fact that I already planned to leave CAP after the summer. Personally I believe I have gotten all I can out of the organization. I DON'T plan on drinking in the near future, and I DON'T plan on becoming an alcoholic, despite what your probably outdated sources are saying.
I, personally, wasn't sending you on a guilt trip. Sorry for the hijack! I'm sorry you feel that way, and I DO hope you stay in CAP. We all make mistakes, and it is important to learn from them. Have fun at NCSAs! Which one(s) are you attending?
Quote from: thatonekid on March 25, 2012, 11:45:05 PM
Quote from: Littleguy on March 25, 2012, 11:33:29 PM
One last thing, has much has we can argue about this, we all have our opinions and beliefs, and we will think our beliefs are facts. This arguement is dead end because neither side is going to budge.
Amen Brother ;)
@Eclipse, if you read what I said you will notice that I said that the kids in the study were drinking more than could be responsible for any age group.
@Extremepredjudice, we were talking about drinking specifically not just things that are illegal.
@123 Marine I appoligise for Hijacking your post I was just arguing, again I appoligise. (Thats probly what i would have done anyway)
This ain't twitter, bro.
I was talking about drinking?
Quote from: thatonekid on March 25, 2012, 11:53:57 PM
hey guys ...this is all done now, no more.
Never tell CT when to stop.
@Extremeprejudice (I know I did the twitter thing) but i'd rather not say (the whole anonymous thing). And i dont feel guilt tripped, thats my parents job LOL
Clearly, neither am I, and I agree with you I feel like sometimes people forget that this isnt the real military, people have other things that are more important like school and work and developing as an individual.
I think we need to stop arguing the drinking thing because otherwise you obviosly arn't sorry.
How else was I supposed to direct my comments to specific people?
Quote from: thatonekid on March 25, 2012, 11:45:05 PM
Quote from: Littleguy on March 25, 2012, 11:33:29 PM
One last thing, has much has we can argue about this, we all have our opinions and beliefs, and we will think our beliefs are facts. This arguement is dead end because neither side is going to budge.
Amen Brother ;)
@Eclipse, if you read what I said you will notice that I said that the kids in the study were drinking more than could be responsible for any age group.
@Extremepredjudice, we were talking about drinking specifically not just things that are illegal.
@123 Marine I appoligise for Hijacking your post I was just arguing, again I appoligise. (Thats probly what i would have done anyway)
This isn't Twitter.
As to the OP, clearly we failed to impress the meaning behind what "his parent paid for". The person most likely to give you the most grief on this is the guy n the mirror.
I am a Flight Sgt., Wing level CAC primary, Supply Sgt., CERT qualified, attend most meetings, activities, etc., and I still have a HUGE social life and when I get bad grades in school, it is because I am slacking and spending my time on CAPTalk (like right now ;))
Quote from: thatonekid on March 26, 2012, 12:00:31 AM
real military
We have RM to remind us. We remember.
Quotepeople have other things that are more important like school and work and developing as an individual.
We all have this. It isn't just you. I am taking 5 college courses. Computer programming, comp 2, calculus, american history, and computer networking. I have 2 papers due for this next week (1500 word and 2500 word), 4 projects (posted last night ::) hate lazy professors) and 2 tests. plus homework. All for one week.
QuoteHow else was I supposed to direct my comments to specific people?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBCode (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBCode)
Quote from: Littleguy on March 26, 2012, 12:05:21 AM
I am a Flight Sgt., Wing level CAC primary, Supply Sgt., CERT qualified, attend most meetings, activities, etc., and I still have a HUGE social life and when I get bad grades in school, it is because I am slacking and spending my time on CAPTalk (like right now ;))
I still have a social life, but it seems that every decision i make, even something little as taking a soda from the fridge when i shouldnt, i have to ask myself, "Is this what a cadet would do?".I'm tired of being in orbit around this thing called "Civil Air Patrol"
Quote from: 123Marine on March 26, 2012, 12:08:10 AM
Quote from: Littleguy on March 26, 2012, 12:05:21 AM
I am a Flight Sgt., Wing level CAC primary, Supply Sgt., CERT qualified, attend most meetings, activities, etc., and I still have a HUGE social life and when I get bad grades in school, it is because I am slacking and spending my time on CAPTalk (like right now ;))
I still have a social life, but it seems that every decision i make, even something little as taking a soda from the fridge when i shouldnt, i have to ask myself, "Is this what a cadet would do?".I'm tired of being in orbit around this thing called "Civil Air Patrol"
Well, thanks for playing, and there is the door.
Quote from: thatonekid on March 26, 2012, 12:00:31 AM
How else was I supposed to direct my comments to specific people?
Use the quote button.
Quote from: 123Marine on March 26, 2012, 12:08:10 AM
Quote from: Littleguy on March 26, 2012, 12:05:21 AM
I am a Flight Sgt., Wing level CAC primary, Supply Sgt., CERT qualified, attend most meetings, activities, etc., and I still have a HUGE social life and when I get bad grades in school, it is because I am slacking and spending my time on CAPTalk (like right now ;) )
I still have a social life, but it seems that every decision i make, even something little as taking a soda from the fridge when i shouldnt, i have to ask myself, "Is this what a cadet would do?".I'm tired of being in orbit around this thing called "Civil Air Patrol"
So what you're saying is: you don't like the fact that the lessons we teach are actually getting ingrained in you.
Quote from: 123Marine on March 26, 2012, 12:08:10 AM
Quote from: Littleguy on March 26, 2012, 12:05:21 AM
I am a Flight Sgt., Wing level CAC primary, Supply Sgt., CERT qualified, attend most meetings, activities, etc., and I still have a HUGE social life and when I get bad grades in school, it is because I am slacking and spending my time on CAPTalk (like right now ;))
I still have a social life, but it seems that every decision i make, even something little as taking a soda from the fridge when i shouldnt, i have to ask myself, "Is this what a cadet would do?".I'm tired of being in orbit around this thing called "Civil Air Patrol"
The Marines don't look kindly on people for whom integrity is a 4-letter word, either.
Quote from: davidsinn on March 26, 2012, 12:09:59 AMSo what you're saying is: you don't like the fact that the lessons we teach are actually getting ingrained in you.
Sounds like mom & dad are getting their money's worth.
Quote from: davidsinn on March 26, 2012, 12:09:59 AM
Quote from: thatonekid on March 26, 2012, 12:00:31 AM
How else was I supposed to direct my comments to specific people?
Use the quote button.
Quote from: 123Marine on March 26, 2012, 12:08:10 AM
Quote from: Littleguy on March 26, 2012, 12:05:21 AM
I am a Flight Sgt., Wing level CAC primary, Supply Sgt., CERT qualified, attend most meetings, activities, etc., and I still have a HUGE social life and when I get bad grades in school, it is because I am slacking and spending my time on CAPTalk (like right now ;) )
I still have a social life, but it seems that every decision i make, even something little as taking a soda from the fridge when i shouldnt, i have to ask myself, "Is this what a cadet would do?".I'm tired of being in orbit around this thing called "Civil Air Patrol"
So what you're saying is: you don't like the fact that the lessons we teach are actually getting ingrained in you.
No, I still value the quality of CAP values, but I believe it is taking away from my young life.
Quote from: Eclipse on March 26, 2012, 12:12:23 AM
Quote from: 123Marine on March 26, 2012, 12:08:10 AM
Quote from: Littleguy on March 26, 2012, 12:05:21 AM
I am a Flight Sgt., Wing level CAC primary, Supply Sgt., CERT qualified, attend most meetings, activities, etc., and I still have a HUGE social life and when I get bad grades in school, it is because I am slacking and spending my time on CAPTalk (like right now ;))
I still have a social life, but it seems that every decision i make, even something little as taking a soda from the fridge when i shouldnt, i have to ask myself, "Is this what a cadet would do?".I'm tired of being in orbit around this thing called "Civil Air Patrol"
The Marines don't look kindly on people for whom integrity is a 4-letter word, either.
Quote from: davidsinn on March 26, 2012, 12:09:59 AMSo what you're saying is: you don't like the fact that the lessons we teach are actually getting ingrained in you.
Sounds like mom & dad are getting their money's worth.
I dont plan on joining the military, i simply made this account to post this question and i figured it would be fitting
Quote from: 123Marine on March 26, 2012, 12:13:10 AM
No, I still value the quality of CAP values, but I believe it is taking away from my young life.
There isn't a single thing about CAP's core values that would remotely take anything away from your "young life". You're either misunderstanding
the situation, or doing things you know you should not be doing, cadet or not.
The Core Values are taking away from him being able to live what he believes is a "normal teen life" by making him think twice about doing something he shouldn't do. He doesn't want to think twice, he just wants to do them anyways and not worry about it. CAP teaches cadets to be responsible, mature young men and women, and he's not ready to be a responsible young man, because it's not the "normal teen" thing to do and not as much fun!
Buttt... He wants to bilk as much as he can out of the program before he leaves, hence staying in till after NCSA's because he wants to do that type of thing, but otherwise would not be able to do so on his own, so will take advantage of every aspect he can before he quits and lives a "normal teen life." Am I the only one that sees the beginning of a pattern here???
Quote from: 123Marine on March 26, 2012, 12:13:10 AM
Quote from: davidsinn on March 26, 2012, 12:09:59 AM
Quote from: thatonekid on March 26, 2012, 12:00:31 AM
How else was I supposed to direct my comments to specific people?
Use the quote button.
Quote from: 123Marine on March 26, 2012, 12:08:10 AM
Quote from: Littleguy on March 26, 2012, 12:05:21 AM
I am a Flight Sgt., Wing level CAC primary, Supply Sgt., CERT qualified, attend most meetings, activities, etc., and I still have a HUGE social life and when I get bad grades in school, it is because I am slacking and spending my time on CAPTalk (like right now ;) )
I still have a social life, but it seems that every decision i make, even something little as taking a soda from the fridge when i shouldnt, i have to ask myself, "Is this what a cadet would do?".I'm tired of being in orbit around this thing called "Civil Air Patrol"
So what you're saying is: you don't like the fact that the lessons we teach are actually getting ingrained in you.
No, I still value the quality of CAP values, but I believe it is taking away from my young life.
What you learn now may be able to help you make your 20's, 30's, 40's, 50's, and so on much more youth filled because CAP is something colleges and employers want to see on a resume. Spend some hard work now and you'll live better later.
Quote from: Eclipse on March 26, 2012, 12:14:47 AM
Quote from: 123Marine on March 26, 2012, 12:13:10 AM
No, I still value the quality of CAP values, but I believe it is taking away from my young life.
There isn't a single thing about CAP's core values that would remotely take anything away from your "young life". You're either misunderstanding
the situation, or doing things you know you should not be doing, cadet or not.
I just feel as though I am held to a much higher standard. And I understand the situation, I dont think anyone needs to be in the situation I am now.
Taking a soda from a fridge and drinking are two very different things.
Drinking is also very different from drinking and hiding it.
I don't think you are set in your decision to quit CAP. If you were set in quitting CAP you likely wouldn't come here asking advice about whether you will be 2b'd for drinking under age. Just remember, Eclipse is right, the Marines require integrity, as do all other services, as do most all jobs in the civilian world, in fact, I can't think of a single job anywhere that would be ok with lying.
Just think long and hard about whether you want to quit CAP, you have put a lot of time and a lot of effort into this. You never know, even if you quit, you may decide you want to come back, and if you do, you will want a good rapport with your squadron, and hiding something like this would be detrimental to your ability to return.
I hate to see any cadet leave the program, no matter the reason. It can do a lot for any cadet, and any cadet can do a lot for the program and the other cadets.
Quote from: Woodsy on March 26, 2012, 12:19:26 AM
The Core Values are taking away from him being able to live what he believes is a "normal teen life" by making him think twice about doing something he shouldn't do. He doesn't want to think twice, he just wants to do them anyways and not worry about it. CAP teaches cadets to be responsible, mature young men and women, and he's not ready to be a responsible young man, because it's not the "normal teen" thing to do and not as much fun!
Buttt... He wants to bilk as much as he can out of the program before he leaves, hence staying in till after NCSA's because he wants to do that type of thing, but otherwise would not be able to do so on his own, so will take advantage of every aspect he can before he quits and lives a "normal teen life." Am I the only one that sees the beginning of a pattern here???
No, there is no pattern developing. I just want to get away from the 12 year olds who think they are in the military with pipe dreams to fly fighter jets.
Quote from: 123Marine on March 26, 2012, 12:22:11 AM
Quote from: Woodsy on March 26, 2012, 12:19:26 AM
The Core Values are taking away from him being able to live what he believes is a "normal teen life" by making him think twice about doing something he shouldn't do. He doesn't want to think twice, he just wants to do them anyways and not worry about it. CAP teaches cadets to be responsible, mature young men and women, and he's not ready to be a responsible young man, because it's not the "normal teen" thing to do and not as much fun!
Buttt... He wants to bilk as much as he can out of the program before he leaves, hence staying in till after NCSA's because he wants to do that type of thing, but otherwise would not be able to do so on his own, so will take advantage of every aspect he can before he quits and lives a "normal teen life." Am I the only one that sees the beginning of a pattern here???
No, there is no pattern developing. I just want to get away from the 12 year olds who think they are in the military with pipe dreams to fly fighter jets.
What pipe dreams? Most of those 12 year olds are on the right path to it. They have a long time to either go towards their goal, or find something suiting.
What, specifically have the core values stopped you from doing.
Being sober, not incarcerated, and alive are generally thought of as life-inhancing.
Quote from: 123Marine on March 26, 2012, 12:22:11 AM
Quote from: Woodsy on March 26, 2012, 12:19:26 AM
The Core Values are taking away from him being able to live what he believes is a "normal teen life" by making him think twice about doing something he shouldn't do. He doesn't want to think twice, he just wants to do them anyways and not worry about it. CAP teaches cadets to be responsible, mature young men and women, and he's not ready to be a responsible young man, because it's not the "normal teen" thing to do and not as much fun!
Buttt... He wants to bilk as much as he can out of the program before he leaves, hence staying in till after NCSA's because he wants to do that type of thing, but otherwise would not be able to do so on his own, so will take advantage of every aspect he can before he quits and lives a "normal teen life." Am I the only one that sees the beginning of a pattern here???
No, there is no pattern developing. I just want to get away from the 12 year olds who think they are in the military with pipe dreams to fly fighter jets.
There is nothing wrong with a pipe dream of flying fighter jets. I had dreams like that when I was 12, it is an important part of life. In fact, I still have dreams that are likely to never happen, but I still have them. Have dreams, they are good for you.
Good lord...i can see why he wants to leave you all are attacking him for everything.
So the gist of what I get is he wants to leave on his terms and sweep the incident under the rug, have no accountability or responsibility at all for his actions.
Quote from: thatonekid on March 26, 2012, 12:33:58 AM
Good lord...i can see why he wants to leave you all are attacking him for everything.
These are not attacks, there was a lapse in judgement and we, at least most of us are just trying to encourage him to see what he has done, and what we think he should do about it, and how to continue from here.
Honestly 123marine, don't let this get you down too much, learn from it and push on.
Quote from: 123Marine on March 26, 2012, 12:20:22 AM
I just feel as though I am held to a much higher standard. And I understand the situation, I dont think anyone needs to be in the situation I am now.
You are being held to a higher standard. Sometimes that's hard to live up to, and the benefit might not be immediately obvious. If you hang in there, we can pretty much guarantee the payoff will come.
How you handle this situation is up to you. Use it as a teachable moment and move on, or let it take you down a more difficult path.
At one time, I could have been the poster child for making poor decisions. Fortunately, I learned from them and grew up.
Quote from: thatonekid on March 26, 2012, 12:33:58 AM
Good lord...i can see why he wants to leave you all are attacking him for everything.
No one is attacking anyone. This is an honest dialog about a serious matter, with some folks who've been around the block a couple times.
Theres no reason to tell them if hes about to leave anyway.
Quote from: thatonekid on March 26, 2012, 12:41:40 AM
Theres no reason to tell them if hes about to leave anyway.
Look at it this way, it is better to say it to deaf ears than to not say it to ears that may be listening.
what if they feel obligated to take diciplinary action and they fill out the paper work and then you leave...thats kinda a deushy move...
Quote from: thatonekid on March 26, 2012, 12:41:40 AM
Theres no reason to tell them if hes about to leave anyway.
His issues aside, have
you reviewed the core values lately?
Quote from: thatonekid on March 26, 2012, 12:48:10 AM
what if they feel obligated to take diciplinary action and they fill out the paper work and then you leave...thats kinda a deushy move...
Nice language. If he cares so little for CAP, then what they do, or don't do is irreverent, but at least he'll know he did the right thing.
It is my decision to leave. I am loosing interest in the program. I am not leaving to become a drug addict/alcoholic. Most of you are saying non cap members are terrible people with no values
No one said anything close.
You are the one saying that membership has handcuffed you from a normal young life, yet provided no example of the wonderful
things you could be experiencing without the burden of CAP.
Quote from: 123Marine on March 26, 2012, 12:50:04 AM
It is my decision to leave. I am loosing losing interest in the program. I am not leaving to become a drug addict/alcoholic. Most of you are saying non cap members are terrible people with no values
FTFY
Not so. CAP teachers and ingrains values into you. You can learn values from any other place, CAP is just one of those places.
Quote from: 123Marine on March 26, 2012, 12:50:04 AM
It is my decision to leave. I am loosing interest in the program. I am not leaving to become a drug addict/alcoholic. Most of you are saying non cap members are terrible people with no values
No one said they were terrible people with no values, they just TYPICALLY don't have the values engrained in them like a paramilitary organization can engrain.
Quote from: thatonekid on March 26, 2012, 12:48:10 AM
what if they feel obligated to take diciplinary action and they fill out the paper work and then you leave...thats kinda a deushy move...
Then you leave doing something manlier and you leave with dignity knowing you did the right thing. Throwing yourself on the chopping block earns more respect than hiding what you've done wrong.
mabey he's just a nice person and because it wont really affect his seinors and if he dosent tell them they wont have to waste their time filling out papework that will become useless shortly. just because someone becomes disilusioned with the program dosent mean they have to be a jerk about it. And I dont need to review them, yes integrity, but some times its not worth being a jerk.
Quote from: thatonekid on March 26, 2012, 12:58:14 AM
mabey he's just a nice person and because it wont really affect his seinors and if he dosent tell them they wont have to waste their time filling out papework that will become useless shortly. just because someone becomes disilusioned with the program dosent mean they have to be a jerk about it. And I dont need to review them, yes integrity, but some times its not worth being a jerk.
Do you think they would care that much? He'd earn their respect for telling them and probably would have the seniors protecting him and applauding him, and using his experience has a lesson for all about intestinal fortitude, why drinking at a young age in public is bad, and how to show intergrity.
Quote from: Eclipse on March 25, 2012, 11:19:56 PM
There is no way for anyone under 21 to "use alcohol responsibly", this isn't France.
Or for that matter...anywhere else in the world...I'm not aware of anywhere else that has a drinking age of 21. Most are 18-19.
Quote from: thatonekid on March 26, 2012, 12:58:14 AM
mabey Maybe he's just a nice person and because it wont won't really affect his seinors and if he dosent doesn't tell them they wont have to waste their time filling out papework that will become useless shortly. just Just because someone becomes disilusioned disillusioned with the program dosent doesn't mean they have to be a jerk about it. And I dont don't need to review them, yes integrity, but some times its not worth being a jerk.
FTFY -.-
Integrity is all the time. Not just when you feel like it. It is doing the RIGHT thing.
If he said something it would go a long way not saying something well nothing can happen and should something happen well then credibility is lost. The OP wants to leave and that is entirely on him, IMHO they should leave now and not wait until the end of summer or for membership to lapse just to attend an activity in a program that they have become disenchanted with.
I'll disagree. Attending a well-run CAP activity at the national level just might be the motivation needed to stay in the program.
Quote from: EMT-83 on March 26, 2012, 01:33:38 AM
I'll disagree. Attending a well-run CAP activity at the national level just might be the motivation needed to stay in the program.
I agree that it could be a motivator to change his/her mind which is why it's an opinion. I think that since he/she said they were leaving then that slot could be used for another cadet is all.
Does this thread set some kind of record for going off the rails that quickly? Wow. I looked in on this thread earlier today and it was fine. Now its over 111 posts and its in the weeds. Geez
Quote from: 123Marine on March 26, 2012, 12:22:11 AMNo, there is no pattern developing. I just want to get away from the 12 year olds who think they are in the military with pipe dreams to fly fighter jets.
Gee, I wonder if Eric Boe had "pipe dreams" when he was 12. He's in CAP. Look him up. I think you'll find that he was pretty successful. [lmgtfy]Eric Boe[/lmgtfy]
I didn't join CAP until I was almost 15, and I had aspirations to be a fighter pilot. Sadly, physical limitations got in the way of that, but I still managed to learn a lot from CAP. Now, as a senior member, I have the opportunity to give back to the program.
Eclipse - my misunderstanding.
Nobody has explicitly said that people outside CAP are have worse morals, but the idea is clearly implied by the zero tolerance policy inside CAP and the stubborn pride in that policy. There are those who don't want to hear that and those who will invite me to leave for suggesting the thought, but it is the truth.
Perhaps a little flexibility is called for.
Quote from: bflynn on March 26, 2012, 04:07:23 AM
Eclipse - my misunderstanding.
Nobody has explicitly said that people outside CAP are have worse morals, but the idea is clearly implied by the zero tolerance policy inside CAP and the stubborn pride in that policy. There are those who don't want to hear that and those who will invite me to leave for suggesting the thought, but it is the truth.
Perhaps a little flexibility is called for.
Schools also have zero-tolerance policies. So does law enforcement.
When I was a cadet, at the age of 18 (and 2 months!), I was put in the back of a police car while my friend was put in the back of another. That night I had a Police officer try to go all "drill instructor" on me to scare me. I wasn't scared, because I didn't do what I was accused of. BUT I did do something stupid and there were consequences.
That faithful night in May of 2008 I lost possession of my newly (that same day) acquired M4 full metal body airsoft gun, as well as a CO2 operated airsoft pistol. I was not arrested, and I did not receive a ticket. I did however suffer the loss of my toys, and the fear that the train company may press charges if they choose. While there wasn't much of a "case" there, it left me afraid, which I think was the goal of the officer, and it worked.
I didn't tell my parents (at first). But I did tell my CAP chain of command. I let them know what I did, why it was stupid, and that I may potentially end up in court over it. I didn't get any CAP punishment, besides being told how dumb I was and some laughter at the loss of my toys. But I let them know, and I bet my commander appreciated knowing about it, even if nothing came of it later. So did my parents when I finally built up the courage to tell them.
Lesson learned.
Underage drinking, now that is a more serious issue, and the fact that this cadet was out in public shows not just a disregard for the law, but also a lack of common sense. Unlike what some have posted here a MAJORITY of high school students at least try alcohol. A large number of them drink regularly. Yes it is part of the teen culture. But it is also avoidable. If this cadet really did not get a citation for underage drinking, the the officer felt bad for him and left him with just the fear of the consequences - as I was. Maybe the officer thought this person learned his lesson. But I guess he didn't, and I guess in retrospect the officer WOULD have issued a ticket.
Don't let the studies posted guide your life, as in most of the world the drinking age is lower, and so are their issues with alcohol. If you say "No, you can't", teens will go and do it. If they can? It looses the appeal. I'd be willing to bet the reason the studies show a higher level of alcoholism in the 18-20 group is because when they DO get their hands on alcohol, they get smashed. Simply by definition of a teen/college party, everyone there is an alcoholic. People drink WAY too much, because they don't know if/when they will get to drink again. It's a terrible thought process, but it is what it is. I may disagree with the US laws, but they are the laws. If I am ever in a position within CAP or not, and find out that a cadet or a person under the age is drinking, I will certainly report it. Maybe not to law enforcement, but definitely to parents and most certainly to the CAP chain of command. Life is about following the rules. You don't follow them, you get slapped with consequences. Simple as that.
Excellent perspective! I was in that very same 18-20 group you spoke of.
I have a personal dog in this fight. I come from an alcoholic extended family and a lot of the people I grew up with had serious substance abuse issues, from huffing gasoline to smoking so much weed you couldn't carry on a conversation with them, to drinking themselves stupid. Some of them are in prison, and some of them are dead.
There wasn't a lot of safety for young people when I was growing up. There was the Scouts, and I've already related my experiences with that. There was a Boys' Club (long before it became Boys' and Girls' Clubs), but you were just as likely to see someone dealing in the alley behind as you were to just go and play pool, table tennis or whatever. You also had to be careful what you said because you could get the snot beat out of you by someone bigger and older than you.
I really, honestly, truly wish I would have known about CAP when I was a kid. I wanted to go to the Air Force Academy and be a fighter pilot. Maybe if I'd known about CAP, I could have done that.
I live not far from the Canadian border. The highest drinking age there that I know of (depending on province) is 19. It seems to work well for them. Of course, much of their culture is derived from Great Britain (and France, in Quebec). However, the law here is that to drink alcohol legally you must be 21, and whether or not the law is stupid or good isn't the issue.
A big reason why I became part of CAP is to help young people have a bit of the safety I didn't have. A big chunk of that, for me, is the zero-tolerance policy on alcohol/drugs.
QuoteA big reason why I became part of CAP is to help young people have a bit of the safety I didn't have. A big chunk of that, for me, is the zero-tolerance policy on alcohol/drugs.
Same here having spent nearly 8 years seeing and dealing with kids who have no structure etc, I am a firm believer that this program can help keep kids on a decent path. I saw where my brother went with his life and I wanted nothing to do with it. CAP and JROTC kept me on the straight and narrow that's why I chose CP for my specialty track.
But only if they stay in the program. The past 2-3 pages have been full of "don't let the door hit you in the butt" posts.
A little tolerence and compassion is a good thing.
Okay, so ...
Signs of concern if CAP will hear about "this", from the OP.
The OP says they don't really want to stay in the program anyway.
But they are "worried" if "CAP" will "find out".
What you really should have said was "will they find out in the next couple months, because after that I don't care. I just don't want to get kicked out now."
For all "we" know, you could actually be in CAWG. Hide in plain sight. Heck, the whole thing could be one big troll game, too. Several points have been weeded out, unraveled and handed back. No reason to believe any of it.
The only thing I do believe is .. if I had a cadet in my sphere of influence that was demonstrating that exact attitude of "I'm in this until after the the activity and that's it!", I'd be sure to do what I could to get that spot at said activity to someone who is more likely to give back to the program, be it leadership or mentorship, or just showing up and participating. But someone who would appreciate the opportunities given them and understand the value, and uniqueness of it.
Sure, what's to say the one that acts all sincere and grovels to the unit for a scholarship to go to an activity, and just goes poof afterwards... (just like this scenario) ... At least in this scenario there's some "honesty" of the intentions at hand.
I would suggest that anyone interested in Juvenile "early" Justice read;
The Little Book of Restorative Justice. It focuses on community outreach programs that work with the LEO and Courts to try and steer youth in the right direction instead of jail time. Great little book.
Quote from: 123Marine on March 25, 2012, 03:42:41 PM
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on March 25, 2012, 03:38:14 PM
Not necessarily that they will sweep it under the rug or anything but it will likely make things better. Lying makes things worse.
I most likely wont let them know about it, but if it does come up somehow i surely wont lie about it. This is something i would like to keep below their radar
Bad move dude....that the third laps of judgment you have demonstrated here on CAP talk in just 24 hours.
Not a good showing.
Quote from: Eclipse on March 25, 2012, 10:46:08 PM
Quote from: thatonekid on March 25, 2012, 10:40:01 PM
I personaly think that its better to learn how to drink responsibly when you are in your teens, with the help of your parents, than to try and figure it out on your own in college.
Or, you know. Just not drink until you're an adult.
Because just say NO works so well...
There is something in what Thatonekid says.....but yes it is illegal.....I just don't think it should be.
You know, in my area we have something in the paper called "Police Beat" on a daily basis. "Joe Snuffy was cited for underage posession of alcohol." isn't really something you want someone to see for the first time in the newspaper.
Quote from: a2capt on March 26, 2012, 05:49:58 PM
The only thing I do believe is .. if I had a cadet in my sphere of influence that was demonstrating that exact attitude of "I'm in this until after the the activity and that's it!", I'd be sure to do what I could to get that spot at said activity to someone who is more likely to give back to the program, be it leadership or mentorship, or just showing up and participating. But someone who would appreciate the opportunities given them and understand the value, and uniqueness of it.
Sure, what's to say the one that acts all sincere and grovels to the unit for a scholarship to go to an activity, and just goes poof afterwards... (just like this scenario) ... At least in this scenario there's some "honesty" of the intentions at hand.
Exactly my line of thinking. The original violation of getting caught with alcohol is completely forgivable in my opinion. The lack of integrity, attitude, and further actions and statements made in this thread... Not so much. Honesty does not equal integrity.
I am sure its evident that all the Senior Members in this room are tea-totalers, never swear, and remained virgins until their wedding day. Right. Drinking alcohol is bad; they let French kids do it and look at France! Notwithstanding, it sounds like the PD grabbed you, seized your evil ETOH, and poured it out. Being thrown in the back of a police car is not the same as being arrested. Police do that so they can run your ID, to make sure you are not a wanted felon, a terrorist, or a methodist of some type, and they also do it to scare the feces out of you if they think you look like a "citizen" and might benefit from a little police-style attitude adjustment. If you had been under the influence, it probably would have been worse. If they did not write you a ticket, or take you in for "booking" ( Taking your prints, photo, and throwing you into a concrete room with a drain in the floor for human fluids) You were not arrested. Remain calm. The Grand Jury is not going to be empaneled and the worst case is that someone might....just might....call your parents or your school. If you were just detained, its no ones business but yours, so forget that part of it.
I think the beating from the group about how bad alcohol is, and why it leads to heroin, obesity, bad breath, and certain death by the age of 18 can stand on its own merits. I personally would urge you not to start the drinking habit. Being in public drunk is like being in public unarmed; It will almost certainly coincide with something bad happening, and if you don't have your wits about you when the merde' strikes the ventillateur, you are just going to be part of the problem, and we hope and expect CAP cadets to be part of the solution. So don't be stupid!
Major Lord
Quote from: lordmonar on March 26, 2012, 07:04:11 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on March 25, 2012, 10:46:08 PM
Quote from: thatonekid on March 25, 2012, 10:40:01 PM
I personaly think that its better to learn how to drink responsibly when you are in your teens, with the help of your parents, than to try and figure it out on your own in college.
Or, you know. Just not drink until you're an adult.
Because just say NO works so we...
Worked for me. It really isn't that hard if you have a good foundation.
Alcohol consumption is neither necessary not inevitable.
If adults wish to consume responsibly, that is their option, but this idea that it has to be a part of a vibrant social life is literally just a beer commercial.
Im still on the fence about leaving or not. I am also still on the fence about telling CAP about it. I, personally, believe this is a personal matter. the law requires it to be confidential on their part, so i think i should do the same on mine. I believe integrity in CAP only goes so far.
If i seemed to bash the CP on any level last night I am sorry, I was quite tired and i have a rule with myself to not make any real decisions while tired/angry. I am going through a pretty deep moral dilemma right now. Hell, my situation sounds like one of those stories you read in a moral leadership class.
Quote from: Major Lord on March 26, 2012, 07:57:32 PM
I am sure its evident that all the Senior Members in this room are tea-totalers, never swear, and remained virgins until their wedding day. Right. Drinking alcohol is bad; they let French kids do it and look at France! Notwithstanding, it sounds like the PD grabbed you, seized your evil ETOH, and poured it out. Being thrown in the back of a police car is not the same as being arrested. Police do that so they can run your ID, to make sure you are not a wanted felon, a terrorist, or a methodist of some type, and they also do it to scare the feces out of you if they think you look like a "citizen" and might benefit from a little police-style attitude adjustment. If you had been under the influence, it probably would have been worse. If they did not write you a ticket, or take you in for "booking" ( Taking your prints, photo, and throwing you into a concrete room with a drain in the floor for human fluids) You were not arrested. Remain calm. The Grand Jury is not going to be empaneled and the worst case is that someone might....just might....call your parents or your school. If you were just detained, its no ones business but yours, so forget that part of it.
I think the beating from the group about how bad alcohol is, and why it leads to heroin, obesity, bad breath, and certain death by the age of 18 can stand on its own merits. I personally would urge you not to start the drinking habit. Being in public drunk is like being in public unarmed; It will almost certainly coincide with something bad happening, and if you don't have your wits about you when the merde' strikes the ventillateur, you are just going to be part of the problem, and we hope and expect CAP cadets to be part of the solution. So don't be stupid!
Major Lord
I do agree. But I am still unsure if it was an official arrest. The only thing you listed is that i had my photo taken. No fingerprints and nor jail room. The cops were quite relaxed and funny about it. I still managed to use my respect towards the officers and they returned it. I'm not a bad kid, I just mad a stupid decision
Quote from: 123Marine on March 26, 2012, 10:26:52 PM
Quote from: Major Lord on March 26, 2012, 07:57:32 PM
I am sure its evident that all the Senior Members in this room are tea-totalers, never swear, and remained virgins until their wedding day. Right. Drinking alcohol is bad; they let French kids do it and look at France! Notwithstanding, it sounds like the PD grabbed you, seized your evil ETOH, and poured it out. Being thrown in the back of a police car is not the same as being arrested. Police do that so they can run your ID, to make sure you are not a wanted felon, a terrorist, or a methodist of some type, and they also do it to scare the feces out of you if they think you look like a "citizen" and might benefit from a little police-style attitude adjustment. If you had been under the influence, it probably would have been worse. If they did not write you a ticket, or take you in for "booking" ( Taking your prints, photo, and throwing you into a concrete room with a drain in the floor for human fluids) You were not arrested. Remain calm. The Grand Jury is not going to be empaneled and the worst case is that someone might....just might....call your parents or your school. If you were just detained, its no ones business but yours, so forget that part of it.
I think the beating from the group about how bad alcohol is, and why it leads to heroin, obesity, bad breath, and certain death by the age of 18 can stand on its own merits. I personally would urge you not to start the drinking habit. Being in public drunk is like being in public unarmed; It will almost certainly coincide with something bad happening, and if you don't have your wits about you when the merde' strikes the ventillateur, you are just going to be part of the problem, and we hope and expect CAP cadets to be part of the solution. So don't be stupid!
Major Lord
I do agree. But I am still unsure if it was an official arrest. The only thing you listed is that i had my photo taken. No fingerprints and nor jail room. The cops were quite relaxed and funny about it. I still managed to use my respect towards the officers and they returned it. I'm not a bad kid, I just mad a stupid decision
So don't make another stupid decision by not telling your commander. Whether you decide to go or stay, he will respect you more if you tell him than if he has to find out from the rumor mill. I realize that you are probably embarassed about it, but teenagers constantly do embarassing stuff and the world doesn't come to an end. If you were a cadet in my squadron and you came to me with this, I would probably ask you to keep me in the loop on what is happening and let me know when it has been resolved. Then we would get back to doing some CAP stuff.
Quote from: 123Marine on March 26, 2012, 10:23:45 PM
Im still on the fence about leaving or not. I am also still on the fence about telling CAP about it. I, personally, believe this is a personal matter. the law requires it to be confidential on their part, so i think i should do the same on mine. I believe integrity in CAP only goes so far.
If i seemed to bash the CP on any level last night I am sorry, I was quite tired and i have a rule with myself to not make any real decisions while tired/angry. I am going through a pretty deep moral dilemma right now. Hell, my situation sounds like one of those stories you read in a moral leadership class.
We all make stupid mistakes (coming from a kid who has done his fair share of stupid things, some of which I regret to this day). Learn and move on.
You need to see what you like about the program, what you don't like, what you can change with some hard work, and what you can't. It's not a long road to get yourself in a leadership position with hard work, and when you're there, you can make changes that'll benifit the program. All you need to do is contribute some dedication, time, and use your sticktoitivness to get there. It's nice to have cadets who learn from screw ups because they can offer a hand to some other cadet who screws up, so I'd say you're valuable enough to be wanted to stick around.
CAP for many is really good for a bit, starts to just outright suck, gets better again, and depending on the person, either keeps getting better through work, or gets worse from a lack of work or a poor attitude. I thought about leaving CAP for a bit, though I never said it. I was fat, anti social, felt like I was never going to make staff, never was going to be important, and worse, I thought that I was dead weight. I was a C/AB for the longest time, and missed encampment twice. Then I got promoted C/Amn a little over a year ago, after I started to work on my weight, and it has been better ever since. I've lost 60 pounds, dropped down to a medium from and XL, am now a C/SrA (would be C/SSgt if I could pass that dang Wright Bro's >:(), Alpha Flight Sgt. for my squadron, Wing level CAC, Supply Sgt. (even though I am relieving the job to a newbie so they can get something good for their dedication and maturity), and am very popular with all of the cadets in my squadron. All it took was some dedication and wanting, and here I am.
Whatever you do in life, I wish you the best, and I hope you weigh your options, and most importantly, find what is fun for you and what you like.
Quote from: Littleguy on March 26, 2012, 10:59:29 PM
Quote from: 123Marine on March 26, 2012, 10:23:45 PM
Im still on the fence about leaving or not. I am also still on the fence about telling CAP about it. I, personally, believe this is a personal matter. the law requires it to be confidential on their part, so i think i should do the same on mine. I believe integrity in CAP only goes so far.
If i seemed to bash the CP on any level last night I am sorry, I was quite tired and i have a rule with myself to not make any real decisions while tired/angry. I am going through a pretty deep moral dilemma right now. Hell, my situation sounds like one of those stories you read in a moral leadership class.
We all make stupid mistakes (coming from a kid who has done his fair share of stupid things, some of which I regret to this day). Learn and move on.
You need to see what you like about the program, what you don't like, what you can change with some hard work, and what you can't. It's not a long road to get yourself in a leadership position with hard work, and when you're there, you can make changes that'll benifit the program. All you need to do is contribute some dedication, time, and use your sticktoitivness to get there. It's nice to have cadets who learn from screw ups because they can offer a hand to some other cadet who screws up, so I'd say you're valuable enough to be wanted to stick around.
CAP for many is really good for a bit, starts to just outright suck, gets better again, and depending on the person, either keeps getting better through work, or gets worse from a lack of work or a poor attitude. I thought about leaving CAP for a bit, though I never said it. I was fat, anti social, felt like I was never going to make staff, never was going to be important, and worse, I thought that I was dead weight. I was a C/AB for the longest time, and missed encampment twice. Then I got promoted C/Amn a little over a year ago, after I started to work on my weight, and it has been better ever since. I've lost 60 pounds, dropped down to a medium from and XL, am now a C/SrA (would be C/SSgt if I could pass that dang Wright Bro's >:(), Alpha Flight Sgt. for my squadron, Wing level CAC, Supply Sgt. (even though I am relieving the job to a newbie so they can get something good for their dedication and maturity), and am very popular with all of the cadets in my squadron. All it took was some dedication and wanting, and here I am.
Whatever you do in life, I wish you the best, and I hope you weigh your options, and most importantly, find what is fun for you and what you like.
Congrats on loosing weight. Sadly, I'm due for my Mitchell, only waiting on time. I partially dont see what else the CP can do for me anymore. You can only hear the same class on integrity and such so many times.
Then be part of the solution. Come up with a class on something that a) interests you, and b) pertains to one of the three missions of CAP.
Quote from: 123Marine on March 26, 2012, 11:06:18 PM
Quote from: Littleguy on March 26, 2012, 10:59:29 PM
Quote from: 123Marine on March 26, 2012, 10:23:45 PM
Im still on the fence about leaving or not. I am also still on the fence about telling CAP about it. I, personally, believe this is a personal matter. the law requires it to be confidential on their part, so i think i should do the same on mine. I believe integrity in CAP only goes so far.
If i seemed to bash the CP on any level last night I am sorry, I was quite tired and i have a rule with myself to not make any real decisions while tired/angry. I am going through a pretty deep moral dilemma right now. Hell, my situation sounds like one of those stories you read in a moral leadership class.
We all make stupid mistakes (coming from a kid who has done his fair share of stupid things, some of which I regret to this day). Learn and move on.
You need to see what you like about the program, what you don't like, what you can change with some hard work, and what you can't. It's not a long road to get yourself in a leadership position with hard work, and when you're there, you can make changes that'll benifit the program. All you need to do is contribute some dedication, time, and use your sticktoitivness to get there. It's nice to have cadets who learn from screw ups because they can offer a hand to some other cadet who screws up, so I'd say you're valuable enough to be wanted to stick around.
CAP for many is really good for a bit, starts to just outright suck, gets better again, and depending on the person, either keeps getting better through work, or gets worse from a lack of work or a poor attitude. I thought about leaving CAP for a bit, though I never said it. I was fat, anti social, felt like I was never going to make staff, never was going to be important, and worse, I thought that I was dead weight. I was a C/AB for the longest time, and missed encampment twice. Then I got promoted C/Amn a little over a year ago, after I started to work on my weight, and it has been better ever since. I've lost 60 pounds, dropped down to a medium from and XL, am now a C/SrA (would be C/SSgt if I could pass that dang Wright Bro's >:(), Alpha Flight Sgt. for my squadron, Wing level CAC, Supply Sgt. (even though I am relieving the job to a newbie so they can get something good for their dedication and maturity), and am very popular with all of the cadets in my squadron. All it took was some dedication and wanting, and here I am.
Whatever you do in life, I wish you the best, and I hope you weigh your options, and most importantly, find what is fun for you and what you like.
Congrats on loosing weight. Sadly, I'm due for my Mitchell, only waiting on time. I partially dont see what else the CP can do for me anymore. You can only hear the same class on integrity and such so many times.
Has an officer, you get some input on that stuff. You have the right and ability to make it much more interesting. Hell, has a Flight Sgt., I'm trying to get more hands on classes and more work on fun and useful things like SAR, Color Guard, aviation, team building, and training exercise for my cadets. You will be an officer, and have the cadet world at your fingertips. You and your future fellow officers are leaders, and you can actively promote and push for what you want to be done, has long has it is in interest of the cadets (don't push for things that nobody could benifit from like a class on how to get out dating or how to do a wheelie in a jet or something really stupid along that line).
Quote from: SarDragon on March 26, 2012, 11:11:25 PM
Then be part of the solution. Come up with a class on something that a) interests you, and b) pertains to one of the three missions of CAP.
I have made several classes in the past few months, and the staff agrees the squadron needs to change direction. I still don't feel as though i can benefit any further. If i do decide to leave CAP I will still keep the values with me
When you become an officer you start paying back for the lessons and gifts you were given by others.
What I have found to be true, based on a sample of 15-20 people that I know in the age of 20-23 right now:
Those who did not drink while underage could go one of a few ways: full on drunks, never drink, drink rarely.
Those who did drink before 21, but not often / a lot tend to remain that way afterwards. Whether it is simply a predisposition to drinking less, or whether it is a result of their behavior earlier in life is for the scientists to sort out.
Those who drank a lot. And I mean A LOT. Almost every weekend. Anytime the opportunity came up, etc. Those folks STILL do it after turning 21. I'm going to assume it is out of habit and the lack of anything interesting to do in the suburban world they live in.
Me? I'm 22 now. I've been to 5 bars, on 4 occasions. I left (and arrived) at two of those bars as the driver. I was sober by the time it was time to go (I stop drinking well before we call it a night). I simply don't drink much. I also have a family history of alcoholism, and my mother constantly fears that if I drink I may fall into that problem. Now, I've been on a bit of a beer tasting in the last year. I like to try different beers, so I do drink at home - sometimes. But I've only been seriously drunk a few times in my life, and I'm sad to say most of them were prior to turning 22.
Alcohol isn't evil. The decision to drink isn't evil. Having a drink under the age of 21 isn't a sin, but it is certainly against the law. You want to do it? No one can really stop you. But you will suffer consequences if you are caught. Do most kids who drink die in a crash/kill someone else/destroy their life? No, but they increase their odds.
I'll tell you this though: everyone tells young people that they think they are invincible. And we deny it. We think, sure I realize some things can kill / hurt me, but the things I do won't cause me harm. Looking back? Me at 14 scares the crap out of me. Me at 16 scares the crap out of me. Me at 18, when I figured, I'm an adult, I'm mature now, scares the crap out of me. I'm 22 now. I'm just about at the age where I feel like I'm turning into an adult, but I realize that 5, 10, 20 years from now I'll look back at my 22 year old self and realize how foolish I was.
I hope you consider the right thing. It may not be telling your CAP leadership, but you DEFINITELY need to tell your parents. They earned the right to know.
I also hope you truly consider what you want out of life, whether CAP is part of that or not. Figure yourself out, and do what you feel is right. But also realize, that ultimately CAP is a "once a week on a weekday, and a weekend sometimes". It truly doesn't cut into your social life - my first date with my fiancee was decided right after my first "find" mission. But CAP does make you a better person all around. I look around at my friends, at my classmates in college, and I think: some of these people would have benefited from the structure and experience CAP gave me. It certainly wouldn't have hurt.
Think long and hard about this, and remember that the easy decision is rarely the best. There is much you can gain from CAP, and while you may feel somewhat restrained by the program, your very statement is evidence that the roots of the program are taking hold. We all make mistakes at your age, some serious, some not, but all teaching moments that should help shape our lives moving forward.
You mention that you are not planning on joining the military, but your screen name indicates you may have at least considered it. Regardless of your decision, let me tell you a parallel story that will hopefully hit close to home given your choice of names. I was once a young (20 year old) USMC PFC that made a similar poor decision. I had just completed my training, gotten assigned to my first unit in the fleet, and was preparing for my first deployment. Some of us went out and had a celebration prior to shipping out. I had an innocent chance meeting with some MPs (needed a temporary vehicle pass) where they smelled alcohol on my breath. They had my ID to process my pass, realized I was under age, and bada boom, my chain of command was involved. I was not arrested, but was turned over to the duty officer.
In the spirit of disclosure, I did drink occasionally in high school. I was not a cadet but wish now that I was. I also though that Marines were supposed to be bad a** types that were expected to occasionally find themselves in trouble (darn you Heartbreak Ridge!!). Low and behold, the core values of CAP re relatively similar with all of the Military services. The issue was not brushed aside, and just two days before I was to be promoted to LCpl, I was denied promotion for an additional 6 months as punishment for my momentary lack of judgement. Now, that may not seem like much, but all of you Marines out there know how crappy it is to be a PFC in the fleet. It was somewhat devastating at the time!
Had I been a 20 year old civvie in a similar situation, this would probably have been brushed aside. The reality is that there are higher standards for people who belong to certain organizations or services. You are held to a higher standard and that is not a bad thing in the long run. Even as a 20 year old service member about to deploy, I was held to the same standard as you were 123Marine. It doesn't matter how people feel about the laws, they are there and need to be followed. None of this is meant to be a guilt trip, but to try and paint a picture and relay a similar experience that I also had to learn from. It doesn't define you, won't hold you back in life, and will not make you an instant alcoholic. What will make a difference is the lesson you learn from this and how you apply it throughout the rest of your life.
I wish you the best of luck in your decision, urge you to follow the advice of some of the wiser posters here, and sincerely hope you continue to find a home in the cadet program and even further into CAP.
QuoteI have made several classes in the past few months, and the staff agrees the squadron needs to change direction. I still don't feel as though i can benefit any further. If i do decide to leave CAP I will still keep the values with me
You get out of CAP what you put in. It seems like you've given up on the putting in part.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on March 26, 2012, 11:25:01 PM
What I have found to be true, based on a sample of 15-20 people that I know in the age of 20-23 right now:
Those who did not drink while underage could go one of a few ways: full on drunks, never drink, drink rarely.
Those who did drink before 21, but not often / a lot tend to remain that way afterwards. Whether it is simply a predisposition to drinking less, or whether it is a result of their behavior earlier in life is for the scientists to sort out.
Those who drank a lot. And I mean A LOT. Almost every weekend. Anytime the opportunity came up, etc. Those folks STILL do it after turning 21. I'm going to assume it is out of habit and the lack of anything interesting to do in the suburban world they live in.
Me? I'm 22 now. I've been to 5 bars, on 4 occasions. I left (and arrived) at two of those bars as the driver. I was sober by the time it was time to go (I stop drinking well before we call it a night). I simply don't drink much. I also have a family history of alcoholism, and my mother constantly fears that if I drink I may fall into that problem. Now, I've been on a bit of a beer tasting in the last year. I like to try different beers, so I do drink at home - sometimes. But I've only been seriously drunk a few times in my life, and I'm sad to say most of them were prior to turning 22.
Alcohol isn't evil. The decision to drink isn't evil. Having a drink under the age of 21 isn't a sin, but it is certainly against the law. You want to do it? No one can really stop you. But you will suffer consequences if you are caught. Do most kids who drink die in a crash/kill someone else/destroy their life? No, but they increase their odds.
I'll tell you this though: everyone tells young people that they think they are invincible. And we deny it. We think, sure I realize some things can kill / hurt me, but the things I do won't cause me harm. Looking back? Me at 14 scares the crap out of me. Me at 16 scares the crap out of me. Me at 18, when I figured, I'm an adult, I'm mature now, scares the crap out of me. I'm 22 now. I'm just about at the age where I feel like I'm turning into an adult, but I realize that 5, 10, 20 years from now I'll look back at my 22 year old self and realize how foolish I was.
I hope you consider the right thing. It may not be telling your CAP leadership, but you DEFINITELY need to tell your parents. They earned the right to know.
I also hope you truly consider what you want out of life, whether CAP is part of that or not. Figure yourself out, and do what you feel is right. But also realize, that ultimately CAP is a "once a week on a weekday, and a weekend sometimes". It truly doesn't cut into your social life - my first date with my fiancee was decided right after my first "find" mission. But CAP does make you a better person all around. I look around at my friends, at my classmates in college, and I think: some of these people would have benefited from the structure and experience CAP gave me. It certainly wouldn't have hurt.
I agree with you on that point as well. And believe me, my parents know
So let me ask - with regards to telling leadership how you made a mistake and staying in CAP, has the discussion made you more or less likely to want to stay?
CAP as an organization has a very bad habit of sticking its corporate nose where it doesn't belong. Unless you were on a CAP activity, in CAP uniform or in any way representing CAP then your unit really has no business injecting itself into matters best settled between you, your parents and the law. In other words, your unit has no need to know, period.
If anyone inquires about it, even if it were your Wing or Region Commander, the proper response is "Sir/Ma'am, that's none of your business." If they want to pursue it further then you demand to have your parents present.
That said, drinking at 16 usually leads to fail in one way or another. I'd avoid it like the plague until you mature more.
123 Marine just a hint, it's all about integrity, maturity, responsibility and self discipline. Civil Air Patrol can and does help refine these qualities in a young (and in many cases the not so young) people, but it can not create. If you feel C.A.P. is hindering your life, maybe you should do a gut check here and now. I am not nor have never been a Marine, but I did learn a few things during my 24 years Army, and that is if you have a problem with any of the above qualities you are going to have a real problem in the military service.
Your decision is your decision but realize that the decisions of others can be formed based on what you do. I ahve always told my children and employees and subordinates that if a mistake is made, admit it, own up to it, confess it, and together they and I will work to correct it, learn from it, and put it behind us. However, to make a mistake and hide it, eliminates all hope of corecting and learning and only brings punishment. (grounding, termination of employment, etc. even for the first offense).
does one drink make an alcoholic? Maybe yes maybe no. Has anyone ever gotten up in the morning and looked in the mirroe and said "Today I will become an alcoholic". No. But research is starting to point to gentics as a determining factor in who will and who will not become alcohol dependent.
So now you are here and stating that you want to take advantage of the summer programs and then take your marbles and go home. What a selfesh and self centered mindset. I hope your were not/are not serious, and that you offer up an apology. But if you are serious, please quit now and free up a space in the programs for a DESERVING Cadet.
Quote from: Johnny Yuma on March 27, 2012, 02:53:09 AMCAP as an organization has a very bad habit of sticking its corporate nose where it doesn't belong. Unless you were on a CAP activity, in CAP uniform or in any way representing CAP then your unit really has no business injecting itself into matters best settled between you, your parents and the law. In other words, your unit has no need to know, period.
I sort of feel the same way. If one of my cadets gets into some trouble outside of CAP, that is parental territory and it is up to them to deal with it. Unless...
QuoteIf anyone inquires about it, even if it were your Wing or Region Commander, the proper response is "Sir/Ma'am, that's none of your business." If they want to pursue it further then you demand to have your parents present.
Unless, the trouble said cadet gets into causes me to doubt his/her judgement. I can not trust a cadet whose judgement is in question to be a leader of other cadets. So if I hear about one of my cadet leaders getting a ticket for minor in possession, you can bet I will ask about it. Because I need some reassurance that he/she can still be trusted, and that this lapse in judgement was just that.
If the cadet insists it is none of my business, then that answers my question. The cadet is relieved of whatever leadership position he/she held, and can continue to participate in the program in another capacity.
And I have no problem having that conversation in the company of a cadet's parents. Been there and done that.
QuoteThat said, drinking at 16 usually leads to fail in one way or another. I'd avoid it like the plague until you mature more.
Nailed it.
An external issue is....external. Failure to tell someone in CAP is not an integrity issue, it's a privacy issue. CAP doesn't need to know everything going on with every volunteer or cadet, even those in leadership.
Why would you consider a desire for privacy to be a leadership fault?
The problem is many times external issues tend to migrate into internal issues. Yes, this is a minor event, but suppose he does Youth Court or whatever and gets a bit of community service and lo and behold, someone else in the program sees him and finds out and now it's all over the school and migrates into the CAP. It would be nice if the Cdr knew about it before hand and was in a position to deflect/kill the "did you hear what xxx did". No one likes surprises.
Another viewpoint: What of an external act that flies in the face of CAP Core Values? addressing the act up front can be the difference between a learning point and a punishment action.
All my life I subscribed to the theory that if I made a mistake, my parents, teachers, commanders, etc., would rather hear about it from me than from an outside source. In later life I tried to instill this idea in my children and overall it has been successful. We have uncovered many learning opportunities and as a parent/employer, I would rather teach and correct than punish, but to teach and correct there must be responsibility, maturity, and openess.
CAP makes it clear that behavior outside the organization, is, in fact, fair game, especially for cadets, and even more so when we're talking
about the use of illegal substances by a cadet.
"zero Tolerance" doesn't mean "instant termination", but in a CAP context, considering the core values, a cadet is certainly duty-bound to accept personal
responsibility for their actions, including any membership consequences that may be included.
Consider the amazing lesson that could be taught by a cadet who admits something like this, is temporarily suspended or demoted, and then moves on with his CAP career in a successful way.
This is actually one of those "defining moments" in life. Everyone makes mistakes and has done stupid things. That is not the issue and neither is underage drinking the issue here. What is important is how one deals with adversity WHEN it occurs in their life. Life is a test, and all of us will ultimately be judged on how we acted. Do you do the right thing only when others are looking or only when you have to?
This incident is actually an oppertunity for the member involved to show his integrity. Even if I were not planning on continuing in CAP, I would go to my supervisor, candidly admit what had happened, that it was wrong, and what I was doing about it.
They are likely to respoind positively to that. People don't get upset about mistakes. They do get upset about lies and coverups.
Think about it.....
VAUCAJX
Quote from: Cliff_Chambliss on March 27, 2012, 03:25:33 PM
... No one likes surprises.
CAP governence should not be determined by what an individual likes.
Quote from: Cliff_Chambliss on March 27, 2012, 03:25:33 PMAnother viewpoint: What of an external act that flies in the face of CAP Core Values? addressing the act up front can be the difference between a learning point and a punishment action.
Is this against CAP core values? Respect, Integrity, Volunteer Service and Excellence.
Integrity? What is the moral or ethical principle being broken?
This is a 16 year old kid who messed soemthing up. There are two chances right now, one that this remains a confidential youth issue and the other that it gets recorded in public form to follow him his entire life. CAP involvements isn't necessary and the more people who know, the more public it becomes.
Personally, I think it shows a lack of respect for the cadet to demand that a fault be exposed publically.
Let ye who has not sinned cast the first stone.
Integrity issue knows hes not suppose to posses, consume, or purchase illicit substances underage. Not want to tell leadership though I can see the cadets side. Expressing a desire to quiet but only after attending an activity. Basic definition of integrity do what's right when no one is looking. But can add admitting culpabilty and responsibility for ones actions.
From the sound of it he was merely detained, spooked and sent on his way with no paperwork etc. So the only record would be the patrol logs.
Cadet did post the incident in a public forum for any/everyone to see asking for advice. And I could be wrong but the general consensus has been that admitting is likely to result in a lesser form of action than the CC being blind sided.
Quote from: bflynn on March 27, 2012, 04:02:38 PM
Integrity? What is the moral or ethical principle being broken?
Seriously?
He used an illegal substance, and his only (publicly acknowledged) concern is keeping it quiet long enough so he can ride out the summer, get his Mitchell, and attend some NCSA.
Not exactly "excellence" or "integrity"
There's no "respect" issue in regards to exposure - this isn't TMZ wandering into the cadet's back yard with a camera, he came here voluntarily and brought it up and out.
And this has nothing to do with "casting the first stone", you're not understanding the meaning of that phrase. CAP's role is as mentor in situations like this, especially when directly
asked.
So, are we going to demand the cadets confess impure thoughts next?
He's said he won't lie about it, but he may not volunteer the information. That's fine. The law says the information is confidential. Society, through its elected representatives in the legislature of his state, has decided that he need not disclose this information to anyone. Why then is it a violation of the Core Value of "Integrity" to avail himself of that right that he has?
If asked, and he lies about it, that's a different thing. But I see no duty to disclose this transgression under any of the Core Values.
Quote from: JeffDG on March 27, 2012, 05:07:17 PMIf asked, and he lies about it, that's a different thing. But I see no duty to disclose this transgression under any of the Core Values.
I don't necessarily disagree, at least in terms of the OP, however the thread wandered into personal integrity when the cadet indicated that he was going to quit CAP any way after an NCSA this summer, not exactly a poster child for ethics.
I think most of us would agree that in the Grande Scheme
®, assuming this is an isolated incident, this isn't the end of the world, nor a career-ending situation if CAP finds out, but that the idea that this cadet feels that AP has been handcuffing his life, and he only cares about not getting caught until he can get a few last things out of the organization before he is caught indicates some lessons were not taken to heart.
On the other hand, the fact that he's concerned at all, means a few might have gotten through.
Quote from: abdsp51 on March 27, 2012, 04:22:53 PMBasic definition of integrity do what's right when no one is looking.
Why do you think telling CAP is what is right? Why is
your expectation that he would talk about his openly? You realize that the expectation for him to talk comes from you, right?
There is no lie here, there is silence....which BTW is probably very smart and appropriate with a youthful indiscretion. These kinds of things can come back later in life if they are made public.
There is no coverup, there is no attempt to conceal this, the young gentleman just isn't talking. Silence is not a crime.
Quote from: JeffDG on March 27, 2012, 05:07:17 PM
So, are we going to demand the cadets confess impure thoughts next?
He's said he won't lie about it, but he may not volunteer the information. That's fine. The law says the information is confidential.
Exactly my point. There is a difference between not talking about it and attempting to conceal it.
If the commander's first though goes along the lines of "how dare he do this to me...", I place the fault on the commander.
Don't try and twist what I said. He expressed concern he could be terminated from the program for his choice. His choice to talk or not but he will have accept the outcome of the decision. I would rather have my children, airmen, cadets etc come to me and say they made a bad decision than find out through other means.
Quote from: abdsp51 on March 27, 2012, 06:09:34 PMI would rather have my children, airmen, cadets etc come to me and say they made a bad decision than find out through other means.
Why? Do you think you have responsibility for their personal life? You grouped "your" airmen and "your" cadets with your children.
So I'm asking why you think you're responsible for what "your" cadets do.
It's being handled by the parents. It isn't an integrity issue because the family chooses not to tell you what happens in their life.
Do I have responsibilty for him no I don't. And as why for one it shows they are willing to take responsibilty for their actions/decisions and know that by doing so is generally going to leave them better off in the future.
And on this topic we are just going to have to agree to disagree.
Quote from: bflynn on March 27, 2012, 06:49:39 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on March 27, 2012, 06:09:34 PMI would rather have my children, airmen, cadets etc come to me and say they made a bad decision than find out through other means.
Why? Do you think you have responsibility for their personal life? You grouped "your" airmen and "your" cadets with your children.
So I'm asking why you think you're responsible for what "your" cadets do.
It's being handled by the parents. It isn't an integrity issue because the family chooses not to tell you what happens in their life.
Because they are my cadets/airman/employees. When you take on authority you should take on responsiblitiy as well.
Being concerned about your subordinates is a mark of good leadership.
Of course there is a line between being a good leader and getting too involved in their private life.....but a really good leader will know their people beyond just how the perform on the job.
And I too would rather a subordinate come to me with their personal screw ups....because it does reflect and we have to be ready for any fall out.
How many time do we read a headline "CAP member arrested for XXXXX?" The crime has nothing to do with CAP other then the perp was also a member of CAP. But that's not how it comes out in the press.
In this case....yes the parents and the courts will take care of it......but CAP does have it's look out too. Off duty conduct certainly relflects on the suitabity of the cadet for promotion, staff positions or command.
QuoteSo, are we going to demand the cadets confess impure thoughts next?
He's said he won't lie about it, but he may not volunteer the information. That's fine. The law says the information is confidential. Society, through its elected representatives in the legislature of his state, has decided that he need not disclose this information to anyone. Why then is it a violation of the Core Value of "Integrity" to avail himself of that right that he has?
If asked, and he lies about it, that's a different thing. But I see no duty to disclose this transgression under any of the Core Values.
A very good point. If I have the right to keep something personal, I do not see any violation of integrity. Also, It is a good point to not have more people involved than necessary. And no, I am not making it public on this forum because I have none of my identity revealed.
This will not become an internal issue, I don't see how it can become one without me saying what happened.
I think many of you are getting integrity and privacy too far interleaved. Integrity means doing the right thing. In my situation, telling anyone in CAP wouldn't be right or wrong; simply a decision. Should I also tell CAP about every little detention I have had in school (Which hasn't happened in 3 years btw)? Things simply as being late to school? Talking in class? CAP is a youth organization, not a church confession.
123Marine, Now you are starting to get it and I agree with most of your last post. All I am saying is that I would go to them in private and be contrite in telling them. They would know that you don't have to do that, but would respect you being a man and it would probably give them a higher opinion of you. It is a sign of maturity, and might lead to consideration for other posts and more responsibility down the road.
Quote from: lordmonar on March 27, 2012, 07:16:41 PM
Because they are my cadets/airman/employees. When you take on authority you should take on responsiblitiy as well.
Being concerned about your subordinates is a mark of good leadership.
Of course there is a line between being a good leader and getting too involved in their private life.....but a really good leader will know their people beyond just how the perform on the job.
And I too would rather a subordinate come to me with their personal screw ups....because it does reflect and we have to be ready for any fall out.
How many time do we read a headline "CAP member arrested for XXXXX?" The crime has nothing to do with CAP other then the perp was also a member of CAP. But that's not how it comes out in the press.
In this case....yes the parents and the courts will take care of it......but CAP does have it's look out too. Off duty conduct certainly relflects on the suitabity of the cadet for promotion, staff positions or command.
So your reason for wanting him to to come forward is about you and about CAP? I didn't hear you say that it was for his good. You want him to fall on his sword for the organization and then you call that integrity?
A couple of corrections - as I understand it, the courts will not be involved because there was no arrest made. The officer exercised his authority to talk to the parents in order to keep this confidential. There is no public record of this anywhere. For the cadet's future, that is probably best.
For the OP - it is your right to keep your family matter in your family. I'm sure you recognize by now that it was a pretty dumb thing to do. Learn from this and show better judgement in the future.
Quote from: bflynn on March 27, 2012, 12:31:14 AM
So let me ask - with regards to telling leadership how you made a mistake and staying in CAP, has the discussion made you more or less likely to want to stay?
I recently have been looking for concrete reasons on either side. The side which said to tell leadership was VERY opinionated. There were several sides on the same advice. The side on keeping it personal has concrete reasons, including law and actual definitions that prove the decision will keep things neutral as possible.
I am still on the fence about leaving CAP, at this point it looks unlikely that I will leave until college comes around.
Quote from: lordmonar on March 27, 2012, 07:16:41 PM
When you take on authority you should take on responsiblitiy as well. Being concerned about your subordinates is a mark of good leadership. Of course there is a line between being a good leader and getting too involved in their private life.....but a really good leader will know their people beyond just how the perform on the job. You don't gain personal responsibility for their lives because you're their leader...or if that's your view, take a step back because you're crowding.
And I too would rather a subordinate come to me with their personal screw ups.
BTW, if you go back to my previous posts on leadership, you'd find that I believe in leaders having good relationships with their directs. My view is more along the lines of service leadership, what can you as a leader do for them.
I'd also rather have a direct tell me they messed up too, but I don't need to know everything. In this case, there is nothing more that you could do for the cadet, there is just a great deal you could do to him. You help him by remaining out of it.
Quote from: 123Marine on March 27, 2012, 08:07:43 PM
Quote from: bflynn on March 27, 2012, 12:31:14 AM
So let me ask - with regards to telling leadership how you made a mistake and staying in CAP, has the discussion made you more or less likely to want to stay?
I recently have been looking for concrete reasons on either side. The side which said to tell leadership was VERY opinionated. There were several sides on the same advice. The side on keeping it personal has concrete reasons, including law and actual definitions that prove the decision will keep things neutral as possible.
I am still on the fence about leaving CAP, at this point it looks unlikely that I will leave until college comes around.
The law isn't on the side of "keep it personal." The only way it would be is if the
court was telling your CC.
You can discuss your criminal record, the court, witnesses, and everyone involved can't.
our "side" isn't necessarily opinionated. If you notice, most of "tell the leadership" people are
SMs. SMs have made mistakes, and know how to recover from them. They are the ones that you should listen to. Think of them as elders...
Just a FYI, Bflynn is a bit of a troll. What "definitions" have they offered, I must have missed them?
QuoteSilence is not a crime.
I wanted to say something earlier, but it was pointless for just one post. Silence can be a crime. If I witness a murder, then stay silent I am in trouble legally.
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on March 27, 2012, 09:08:29 PM
The law isn't on the side of "keep it personal." The only way it would be is if the court was telling your CC. You can discuss your criminal record, the court, witnesses, and everyone involved can't.
Unless I'm mistaken, there is no court involved because there was no arrest and thus no witnesses or criminal record. I could be wrong there.
The confidentiality aspect is in regards to crimes commited as minors that wound up in court. And dictates that PII in regards to minors cannot be released. Now if a minor is convicted as an adult its an adult conviction. And it basically means an employer cannot use it in regards to hiring etc. However it can stop you from obtaining a clearance and working for the Uncle Sam amd can be used to show behaivor patterns for later offenses.
A simple detention and FI is a different story as long as the minor is not being questioned in regards to a offense in which they may implicate themselves.
I have never been arrested but have been in traffic court twice, both for very minor offences (one I wasn't even fined for).
When I filled out my DoD Form 398 for Top Secret Security Clearance I told my recruiter that and she said "list them anyway...they'll frown on you a lot worse if you don't list them and they turn up."
I would say that is applicable to the cadet's issues here.
The chances are 50/50 that the CC won't find out...but if the CC does find out, s/he may not 2B the cadet, but he may have to kiss promotions and/or positions of leadership goodbye.
When counselling cadets, I have often used this maxim:
"Anyone can make an error. That's human. But the error only becomes a mistake if you refuse to correct it."
Quote from: lordmonar on March 27, 2012, 07:16:41 PM
Quote from: bflynn on March 27, 2012, 06:49:39 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on March 27, 2012, 06:09:34 PMI would rather have my children, airmen, cadets etc come to me and say they made a bad decision than find out through other means.
Why? Do you think you have responsibility for their personal life? You grouped "your" airmen and "your" cadets with your children.
So I'm asking why you think you're responsible for what "your" cadets do.
It's being handled by the parents. It isn't an integrity issue because the family chooses not to tell you what happens in their life.
Because they are my cadets/airman/employees. When you take on authority you should take on responsiblitiy as well.
Being concerned about your subordinates is a mark of good leadership.
Of course there is a line between being a good leader and getting too involved in their private life.....but a really good leader will know their people beyond just how the perform on the job.
And I too would rather a subordinate come to me with their personal screw ups....because it does reflect and we have to be ready for any fall out.
How many time do we read a headline "CAP member arrested for XXXXX?" The crime has nothing to do with CAP other then the perp was also a member of CAP. But that's not how it comes out in the press.
In this case....yes the parents and the courts will take care of it......but CAP does have it's look out too. Off duty conduct certainly relflects on the suitabity of the cadet for promotion, staff positions or command.
You start nosing around in the affairs between the cadet's off time, their parents and the law and you're asking for an IG complaint that won't go your way. You're not the kid's legal guardian, you're not their parent and you're not involved in the legal process. Unless the act happened on CAP time or while they were representing CAP in any way one needs to butt out.
I've never seen a headline like you suggest, not even from the few times there were molesters involved.
Quote from: Johnny Yuma on April 07, 2012, 10:06:50 PM
You start nosing around in the affairs between the cadet's off time, their parents and the law and you're asking for an IG complaint that won't go your way. You're not the kid's legal guardian, you're not their parent and you're not involved in the legal process. Unless the act happened on CAP time or while they were representing CAP in any way one needs to butt out.
I agree - except you're wrong.
Quote from: Eclipse on April 07, 2012, 10:14:11 PM
Quote from: Johnny Yuma on April 07, 2012, 10:06:50 PM
You start nosing around in the affairs between the cadet's off time, their parents and the law and you're asking for an IG complaint that won't go your way. You're not the kid's legal guardian, you're not their parent and you're not involved in the legal process. Unless the act happened on CAP time or while they were representing CAP in any way one needs to butt out.
I agree - except you're wrong.
really? Please expand...
He won't.
You're correct. The commander is not the legal guardian of the minor. Attempting to uncover a juvenile infraction could be considered an invasion of privacy and could result in a potential unauthorized discovery/release of PII.
I say that as a parent - this is family business and the commander needs to butt out. There is no official record of this and there is nothing to be gained by bringing another person in on the issue. There is especially nothing to be gained by having CAP create a record of it that might resurface some years in the future at the wrong time.
Quote from: bflynn on April 11, 2012, 01:20:30 PM
He won't.
You're correct. The commander is not the legal guardian of the minor. Attempting to uncover a juvenile infraction could be considered an invasion of privacy and could result in a potential unauthorized discovery/release of PII.
I say that as a parent - this is family business and the commander needs to butt out. There is no official record of this and there is nothing to be gained by bringing another person in on the issue. There is especially nothing to be gained by having CAP create a record of it that might resurface some years in the future at the wrong time.
You are correct. It isn't any of CAP's business. But if the cadet shares the information it isn't breaking any laws. Forcing the cadet would, though
No one has said force the cadet to say anything and you are misunderstanding the law/s in place to protect minors during criminal proceedings in regards to juveniles. This was a detention not arrest, no one is advocating digging to obtain information the major consensus was he should say something since he was concerned about getting kicked out.
Let's ask the reverse question -
Suppose the cadet does tell his COC, specifically his squadron commander. What is the commander required to do? Is an entry in the cadet's records required?
Ultimately commanders discretion on what course of action he/she takes. If it was me I wouldn't move for termination, I know that teens can and will make mistakes and bad decisions we all do it's part of maturing and growing up.
If he came to me and told me what was going on? No, I wouldn't really do much at all. Probably just have a talk about what happened and see if he has learned his lesson. See if he fears any adverse action. If it goes halfway well with him, I wouldn't do anything. Because he has shown some intestinal fortitude.
If I were to find out about it, and find that he was intentionally hiding it, that would be a different story. I still wouldn't push for separation, but probably a demotion of one grade, and tell him as soon as he is ready to test let him do it, even if it is the next meeting. And no, I wouldn't make the demotion a huge public thing either, do it like a counseling, with a couple of SMs, and then that is that. Just show the cadet that there are consequences to actions. And the worst consequences come from lying, and intentionally hiding something bad is lying to most people.