Survival Vests for Aircrews

[Hawk200]

Thought about posting this as a topic, but figured a poll would provide clearer results.

How many aircrew people here were a military aircrew type survival vest when on missions? Basically something like an SRU-21, SARVIP, or AIRSAVE type of vest, when in the aircraft.

The mods here have been suggesting that initial posts set some ground rules on replies. So, here is what I'm setting forth:

1. A yes or no response.

2. If your response is Yes, I'd be interested in knowing what you carry in your vest, what you've found useful. Just asking if you'd share.

3. If your response is No, then just vote "No". Nothing else really required.

4. If someone posts an item that another isn't familiar with, then clarification requests are certainly not unreasonable. I, and others, would probably rather not see "What the h&!@ are you using that for?".

And on Thursday, we'll try to set up a game of "Fizzbin"....

[NIN]

EDIT: I didn't read the ground rules carefully before posting, but I believe that suggesting you shouldn't post a response if you don't wear survival gear is tantamount to saying "If you agree with me, chime in, but if you don't, I'm not interested in your opinion or information."

Having worn a survival vest for operational purposes in aircraft that are considerably bigger than the high-wing monoplanes we fly in CAP, I can suggest two things:

1) A vest in our tiny bug-smashers is probably overkill.  Seriously.  Its a big enough pain in the butt getting out of the plane when un-encumbered with additional girth/weight/stuff, imagine trying to get out IN A HURRY with all that extra stuff.  "Captain Smith might have survived the post-crash fire had he not been trapped in the wreckage by his survival vest.."

2) About 50% of the stuff carried in a military vest like SRU-21/P or AIRSAVE  is probably utterly unnecessary in CAP's mission environment.

There is a maxim in flying that says that if its not attached to you when you have to egress the aircraft, its not coming with you, so I do agree that survival equipment needs to be "close at hand" somehow.  But considering that most CAP crashes in the last 10-15 years have not been of the "firey destruction variety," I don't think its out of the question to secure a survival kit in the baggage area.

I think its probably a better ROI to invest that kind of money in proficiency flying and training than on extra gear thats might not be helpful anyway.

(Never mind the whole "scheduled inspections" of survival gear for things like battery life, time-change items, etc.. Ugh, I hated that..)

I'm a flight gear nut. I collect flight gear, mostly rotary wing, but I have a lot of fixed wing equipment in my collection, too.  But there are circumstances where the benefit of survival gear may be outweighed considerably by the presence of it, and I think our operational environment would not be enhanced by survival vests. 

I do, however, think that impact attenuating flight helmets, locking shoulder harnesses and those airbag devices may do more to improve our aircrews chances of survival in an accident sequence than a survival vest.

Remember: fatalities in general aviation accidents are more of the "blunt force trauma" or "massive burn" variety than of the "survived the accident but didn't survive the next 24 hrs in the woods.."

[RiverAux]

I wear a vest though I hardly ever see anyone else do so.  Probably the most useful things in it are the signal mirror and strobe light.  If I was wearing a flight suit or BDUs I could probably distribute everything in the vest in the various uniform pockets, but then I'd just have to take all the junk out again and put it back in order to wash the uniforms.  Its just easier to leave it in the vest so I can just put it on and be ready to go no matter what uniform I wear. 

The vest isn't really set up for "survival" per se as I agree that it is unlikely I'll need to survive out there for weeks after a crash. 

What I would really llike to have attached to me is some water as that could be a significant need immediately after a crash.  But I just haven't found a good way to do this given the cramped interiors of our plane.  Hopefully the plane will be in good enough shape that I will be able to go back for my water bottles in my gear bag. 

[lordmonar]

I carry the basic survival and first aid equipment listed in the GTM3 task guide plus 1 MRE worth of food (broken down of course) and 1 liter of water in 250 ml packets.

I also carry a strobe light and 1 smoke grenade.

I also carry the USAF survival knife.

All of this in an air-save vest(less the harness)

So...I got everything I need to spend the night with the aircraft in the desert.

[wingnut]

Survival equipment is mandantory in PCR region aircraft, anyone flying search and rescue missions are acutely aware that most of our missions are in remote areas. So if you survive the crash (we wear nomex) you may need the items way in the back of the plane underneath all the crap. My vest (Draped over my seat has water, firstaid items, signal devices (mirror, flares, laser flare), personal ELT, survival rations, Asek survival knife (cuts seatbelt&smashes plexiglass).

Ok too much, try not having anything and be in a survival situation in the boonies, I have, and unless your willing to eat your scanner you better be prepared. It is the commen sense and safe thing to do, besides my scanner is old and tough chewing.

[Trung Si Ma]

Don't wear a vest, but do carry a Prepared Pilot Pocket Pack (www.preparedpilot.com) in my pocket and survival gear in the baggage compartment.

[RiverAux]

I also carry a strobe light and 1 smoke grenade.

You're carrying a smoke grenade on one of our aircraft? 

[freeflight]

I always wear a vest when I fly.  My list of items are in this thread.
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=1068.msg13044#msg13044

[Hawk200]

EDIT: I didn't read the ground rules carefully before posting, but I believe that suggesting you shouldn't post a response if you don't wear survival gear is tantamount to saying "If you agree with me, chime in, but if you don't, I'm not interested in your opinion or information."

Not a matter of disagreement, just wish to avoid any wars over opinion. Your post was informative, thorough, and objective. I just don't want any of the "What the f--- are you thinking? You don't need a d--- survival vest!"

Your post avoided that, so I consider it welcome. Posts like it are also welcome. I just don't want any namecalling, questioning the lineage of peoples mothers, questioning peoples mental status, etc .

[bosshawk]

I, too, like wingnut fly in PACR, where our terrain sometimes exceeds 14,000 ft and contains all sorts of cumulo granite and trees of all descriptions.  An aircraft survival kit is mandatory in CAWG, as are personal survival packs or vests.

The only thing that I would add to wingnuts list is medication: if you are an old guy like me, you take one or more mandatory medicines daily and it might be real handy to have a three day supply in your vest or pack.

Good topic and one well worth some consideration.  No doubt vests and packs are a pain, but they may come in handy one day when you have to try to walk away from your favorite 182 or 206 in the Sierras.

[Slim]

I wear one of the SRU-21P variety, and have for years.  Despite the looks of amusement, contempt, or disagreement from my fellow aircrew members.

I carry:  A small first aid kit, signalling devices (strobe light, signal mirror, cyalume sticks and a whistle), two compasses (map reading and lensatic), a notebook and pen/pencil, small pocket knife, 1 liter plastic water flask, and an AF survival knife.  If I think to, I'll also throw my GPS unit in there.

I also carry my handheld CAP radio in one pocket, with the antenna removed and in the same pocket.  Between the CAP, amateur and public safety frequencies in it, someone is sure to hear me.

I don't necessarily plan to spend a significant amount of time in the woods, but I would be able to take care of my basic needs if I were fortunate enough to survive the impact and egress. 

[SAR-EMT1]

When was the last time a CAP aircraft was force down and the crew made use of such items? Ive heard of CAP planes going down, but in all the stories Ive heard, the crew -bless their souls- did not make it.

[DNall]

When was the last time a CAP aircraft was force down and the crew made use of such items? Ive heard of CAP planes going down, but in all the stories Ive heard, the crew -bless their souls- did not make it.

Funny how when you find yourself in a survival situation such logic is pretty worthless.

Our planes also all have a survival kit aboard. I carry some additional stuff in a flight bag. I figure it's either going to be fatal or I'm going to be able to get to the bag, &/or help will be there quick. I also make sure I carry some spare overnight stuff for those times when you may have to sit it out at a dif airport than your car. The MAIN thing I take is an excess of water. I always end up crewing with people that don't bring any & if we end up off-field that & the first aid kit are going to be the main needs. If I were in more challenging terrain then I'd probably go with a vest & more complete kit in the bag, but as it is I opt for comfort in this area.

[Hawk200]

When was the last time a CAP aircraft was force down and the crew made use of such items? Ive heard of CAP planes going down, but in all the stories Ive heard, the crew -bless their souls- did not make it.

SAR-EMT1, I appreciate that you made input, but this seems a little more negative than what I'm looking for.

This thread was not intended as a discussion on whether or not there is merit to wearing a vest, but a poll on how many people do it. I pretty much understand that if someone doesn't carry one, they don't feel a need for it. There are, however, people that do consider it a legitimate need, and if they do carry one, I'd like to know what they carry in it.

Second, in the near future, I'm probably going to be aircrew on military helicopters. One thing I do know about military aviation is that we don't dress for the 99.999% of the flights we do that never have any problems. We dress for the the .001% that does go wrong.

I've been in one light airplane wreck in my life, and I will agree that it was minor and that a survival vest was unnecessary, as it was on an airfield at the time. I do think about the "What if it hadn't been on that airfield?" Would I have been prepared?

[NIN]

Something to think about that I found pretty funny a couple years back.

I have carried a signal mirror with me since I was old enough to spell "LBE." In the old days it was a flat metal shaving mirror that coincidentally fit neatly in the back of my M-14 style ammo pouches.

Later, I carried a regular signal mirror in my aircrew vest, and have that same mirror in my ground team gear.  Apart from checking uncheckable areas for ticks, or seeing if that branch that just poked me in the eye socket left a mark, or showing someone how to use a signal mirror, I NEVER used one. NEVER. I've carried one since 1982.  NEVER used it.

Until about 2003, when my unit was conducting a bivouac and SAR training with a local boy scout troop. We get out there to coordinate with the airplane and discover that the wing-issued HTs we have are somehow programmed with a PL on all the simplex air to ground freqs and nobody knows how to turn it off, or vice versa in the airplane. Bottom line was: from my truck I could talk to the plane via my mobile. From my HT, no joy.  I could hear them, they couldn't hear me.

Solution?  Well, we could have relayed from the truck to the ground team and up to the plane, but that would have taken a body we didn't have able to commit.  So I told the aircrew "Ask me questions and I'll signal you with my signal mirror for the answers.." and it WORKED!  (whoo hooo!)

So the moral there is "Carry a signal mirror for 21 years and you, too, may get a chance to use it!"

[NIN]

Second, in the near future, I'm probably going to be aircrew on military helicopters. One thing I do know about military aviation is that we don't dress for the 99.999% of the flights we do that never have any problems. We dress for the the .001% that does go wrong.

You would be amazed at how untrue this statement is....

[Hawk200]

Second, in the near future, I'm probably going to be aircrew on military helicopters. One thing I do know about military aviation is that we don't dress for the 99.999% of the flights we do that never have any problems. We dress for the the .001% that does go wrong.

You would be amazed at how untrue this statement is....

Don't know why I'm asking, but how so? What part is untrue?

[NIN]

Don't know why I'm asking, but how so? What part is untrue?

While we were "supposed" to wear our vests all the time, I can tell you that in the several hundred hours of rotary wing aircraft crew time that I have (CH-47s, UH-1s, AH-1s and OH-58s) I probably wore my survival vest all of about 25 or 30 hours total.  It was common to snap-link it to the seat and forget it.  Pilots too.

If you see photos of me in my gear, I'm wearing an SPH-4, flightsuit, jacket, gloves and monkey harness.  I can think of about three or four discrete instances where I was wearing a survival vest when I might have been in a serious position to really need it.  Never actually did.

The fact is: when you're doing a$$ and trash missions far from anything "hot", its easy to get complacent and figure "I don't need that vest right now.."  It gets in the way, crap gets snagged on it, you might screw up and lose something out of it and have to pay for it, its bulky, my monkey harness rides badly under it, its too hot, etc...

Only wore chicken plate about three times.  And my vest was ON for that.

[Hawk200]

While we were "supposed" to wear our vests all the time, I can tell you that in the several hundred hours of rotary wing aircraft crew time that I have (CH-47s, UH-1s, AH-1s and OH-58s) I probably wore my survival vest all of about 25 or 30 hours total.  It was common to snap-link it to the seat and forget it.  Pilots too.

If you see photos of me in my gear, I'm wearing an SPH-4, flightsuit, jacket, gloves and monkey harness.  I can think of about three or four discrete instances where I was wearing a survival vest when I might have been in a serious position to really need it.  Never actually did.

The fact is: when you're doing a$$ and trash missions far from anything "hot", its easy to get complacent and figure "I don't need that vest right now.."  It gets in the way, crap gets snagged on it, you might screw up and lose something out of it and have to pay for it, its bulky, my monkey harness rides badly under it, its too hot, etc...

Only wore chicken plate about three times.  And my vest was ON for that.

I don't see how that is contradictory to my statement, but in the interest of keeping this thread clean, I'm going to suggest that you make any responses as PM's. I think the disagreement is probably a matter of viewpoint, not a difference of facts.

[Trung Si Ma]

Don't know why I'm asking, but how so? What part is untrue?

While we were "supposed" to wear our vests all the time, I can tell you that in the several hundred hours of rotary wing aircraft crew time that I have (CH-47s, UH-1s, AH-1s and OH-58s) I probably wore my survival vest all of about 25 or 30 hours total.  It was common to snap-link it to the seat and forget it.  Pilots too.

AMEN and can CONCUR with the above.  Several hundred aerial observer hours in -58's and very few while wearing a vest.  Of course, the -58 cockpit isn't designed for arctic clothing and a survival vest.  Usually clipped to the survival gear in the back and then taken out an put on when going into a maneuver TOC (counted as web gear).

The only time I really wore a -21 vest was when they were modified with Type II nylon straps and made into field expedient STABO rigs.  You wore the vest with the leg straps tapped up out of the way and the lift rings at the shoulders taped down.  Then, if you needed a STABO extraction, you hooked the leg straps up, cinched them down REAL tight and hooked the ropes to the lift rings and went for a ride.  Scared the bejesus out of me the first time we did it down at McCall.  Fortunately, we never had to use it for real.