Safety Follies -- Are We Really Safe?

[RADIOMAN015]

Interestingly while I was undercover at the NER Color/Drill Team competition, I observed during lunch time that a CAP van, with two senior members in it started to backup right next to the outside pavilion area that had in excess of 100 cadets & senior member walking/standing around for lunch.  The senior member in the passenger side DID NOT get out of the van to spot even though the van was right in the crowded area.   Fortunately a cadet (Maj or LtCol) ran behind the van and placed himself as a spotter so the van wouldn't hit the pavilion or any person walking out of the hangar/competition area.

I salute the cadet who did this  :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:  However, I've really got to wonder what the heck is wrong with those senior members in that van    Also was there a safety plan/briefing for this competition and did it specifically state spotters will be used ANYTIME a van is backed up    Also got to wonder where all the safety officers were during this      

Before any you start to chastise me for not running over, the cadet beat me to it.

HOWEVER again I've got to ask myself with all this administrative mumbo jumbo training & documentation are we really safe, what else do we need to do to make sure that simple safety procedures like this aren't overlooked    
RM   

[EMT-83]

As Ron White says, you can't fix stupid.

[mclarke]

heres your sign

[RADIOMAN015]

heres your sign

Could you explain what you wrote above, it doesn't make sense to me
RM

[Hawk200]

heres your sign

Could you explain what you wrote above, it doesn't make sense to me
RM

A couple places to start: Here's your sign

Or you could try here: "[lmgtfy]Here's your sign[/lmgtfy]"

[lordmonar]

I don't know.....I have backed a vehicle up for the last 30 years or so....and have only hit something one or two times.

I really, really, really hate the "spotter" idea....or the concept that you are stupid if you don't use one.

It is just another one of those safety mandate that get imposed on use with no real value added.

If having a spotter is so important.....then no one should ever be able to drive a vehicle with out a shotgun to act as a spotter.

End of Rant.

[ol'fido]

heres your sign

Could you explain what you wrote above, it doesn't make sense to me
RM

A couple places to start: Here's your sign

Or you could try here: "[lmgtfy]Here's your sign[/lmgtfy]"

Git-r-done!!!!

[wuzafuzz]

We try our best to idiot proof everything, but there are some truly determined idiots out there.  In the meantime we really annoy the heck out of folks who are reasonably intelligent.

[jeders]

I don't know.....I have backed a vehicle up for the last 30 years or so....and have only hit something one or two times.

I really, really, really hate the "spotter" idea....or the concept that you are stupid if you don't use one.

It is just another one of those safety mandate that get imposed on use with no real value added.

If having a spotter is so important.....then no one should ever be able to drive a vehicle with out a shotgun to act as a spotter.

End of Rant.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

[davidsinn]

You know you had some really good points.

HOWEVER again I've got to ask myself with all this administrative mumbo jumbo training & documentation are we really safe, what else do we need to do to make sure that simple safety procedures like this aren't overlooked    

Like that one; and this one

I salute the cadet who did this  :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:  However, I've really got to wonder what the heck is wrong with those senior members in that van    Also was there a safety plan/briefing for this competition and did it specifically state spotters will be used ANYTIME a van is backed up    Also got to wonder where all the safety officers were during this    

But you blow it when you say something ridiculous like this:

Interestingly while I was undercover at the NER Color/Drill Team competition,

Because the whole time I was reading it the only thought I had was: "Seriously?" You are constantly reminding us that we are civilians and that you are ashamed of the military connection and heritage that we have but then you pull secret squirrel like this and the OPSEC post and the rescue ricky crap about monitoring radio traffic with the phone number of base ops so you can call them if you hear something odd and identify yourself as a CAP officer. You really have no credibility.

[a2capt]

I just stopped reading when I got to the word "undercover".

[RADIOMAN015]

I don't know.....I have backed a vehicle up for the last 30 years or so....and have only hit something one or two times.

I really, really, really hate the "spotter" idea....or the concept that you are stupid if you don't use one.

It is just another one of those safety mandate that get imposed on use with no real value added.

If having a spotter is so important.....then no one should ever be able to drive a vehicle with out a shotgun to act as a spotter.

End of Rant.

It was VERY poor judgement by those seniors in that van.  This particular circumstance where the vehicle was in relation to what was going on with the number of people walking around was dangerous.   Do we need a spotter every time, probably not BUT tell me what's the big deal if you have another competent person in the van with you to ask them to spot you while you back up
RM   

[PHall]

Was the backup beeper sounding while they were in reverse?
It's not like they were in stealth mode.

Now, here's my question. Did you stop the gentlemen in the van and ask them, civilly, why they didn't use a spotter.
Or would doing that have blown your cover since you were there "undercover".

[Hawk200]

We try our best to idiot proof everything, but there are some truly determined idiots out there.  In the meantime we really annoy the heck out of folks who are reasonably intelligent.

Seen a few of those determined idiots.

Personally, I like the quote: "Everytime you idiot-proof something, someone invents a better idiot."

I think it pretty much covers it.

[NCRblues]

wow...really radioman....
After all your crazy post as of late, i have come to the conclusion that you are just trolling this board.

Your post's make no sense at all...you make it well know that you hate the military connection that CAP has. You claim military service, yet don't understand simple base entry procedures or simple (brick wall simple) opsec....your a fake, a phony that just likes to cause trouble on the board.

Who sent you "undercover"? Id like to know, because "undercover" is not authorized by any rule or regulation in CAP or AFMANS.... A good argument good be made that you were stalking or harassing the people that you were watching while "undercover".

Please, do each and every one of us a favor, and show yourself to the door.....

[EMT-83]

Despite the manner in which the original post was made, the point is valid.

Without taking the time to look us the exact numbers, we all know that backing accidents account for large percentage of avoidable vehicle incidents. In fact, CAPR 77-1 requires the use of a spotter when one is available.

Whenever members are willing to ignore data, not to mention regulations, because they know better or have more experience, or whatever the excuse might be, there is a problem.

[RADIOMAN015]

wow...really radioman....
After all your crazy post as of late, i have come to the conclusion that you are just trolling this board.

Your post's make no sense at all...you make it well know that you hate the military connection that CAP has. You claim military service, yet don't understand simple base entry procedures or simple (brick wall simple) opsec....your a fake, a phony that just likes to cause trouble on the board.

Who sent you "undercover"? Id like to know, because "undercover" is not authorized by any rule or regulation in CAP or AFMANS.... A good argument good be made that you were stalking or harassing the people that you were watching while "undercover".

Please, do each and every one of us a favor, and show yourself to the door.....

I like CAP too much to quit. I do believe in supporting the overall 3 overall missions of CAP within my personal limitations.  Some of my posts sometimes appear to inflame some members -- it is not my intention to inflame anyone, I am not trolling the boards (perhaps some members just need to take a step back a bit).  Perhaps "undercover" is the wrong/poor word choice to use -- I was not in a CAP uniform (thus I really wasn't in the position to go up to a CAP van and stop them and ask them about use of a spotter in a congested area, and also that cadet had enough safety attitude to go and help them immediately when he saw the issue, so it was solved by a cadet -- also wouldn't you think IF I ran up to them not in uniform that this would cause a problem ).

Regarding CAP's long history with the military, I am fully aware of our WW II activities and what we continue to do for the AF.  The point of it is we are Civilians and again I would refer every member to do a comprehensive reading of AFI 10-2701 to FULLY understand what our current relationship with the USAF is.   I never use my CAP rank when talking with AF military & civilian personnel (or any outside agency), just my name (sometimes squadron) and Civil Air Patrol.  I make no apology about wanting to see primarily senior members go to Blue flight suits & Blue BDU's and perhaps change the tapes to red background as well as the rank to red background due to differentiation issues on missions.

Regarding OPSEC, I believe what any member observes going on while they are "inside the fence line", shouldn't be broadcasted to the public.  (The military & civilian employees aren't telling others, for those of you that think you are so military related as CAP members wouldn't you think you would do the same thing ).   

I am also fully aware about base security procedures and challenges the security personnel face.  I have a radio scanner/receiver dedicated to various intrabase radio nets, so have real time information as to what may be happening.

I am a retired AF military officer (primarily serving during the "cold war"/Viet Nam)  who also was an NCO for a number of years before being commissioned. 

I don't lie on this board, and some other things I've been proactive on (e.g. ELT signal on base, open transmitter mike on base ops/command post frequencies), are reasonable within my limitations and show the local military officials that CAP is ready to assist (also I personally know the person in charge of the command post :angel:).
RM

[caphornbuckle]

A question for the OP:

Was the vehicle in motion before the cadet stepped up to the plate and performed the duties of the spotter?

The reason I ask is that perhaps the cadet was assigned the duty of spotting for vehicles at the event and perhaps the signal that the driver was ready was to put the vehicle in reverse and activate the backup alarm thus getting the cadet's attention to perform his duties.

Just something to think about.

[jimmydeanno]

You know, I'm starting to wonder where people get their driver's licenses where they can't back up a 12 passenger van with windows all around it.

When I turned 21 I got my Class A driver's license.  I didn't go to a driving school, just read the manual, and took the road test.  I had a job that only required a class B license.  It was a tank truck, with two side windows and the windshield.  The only way to see where the edges of the vehicle were, were the side mirrors.  I had no difficulty backing into spots that had mere inches on either side, down hills, around corners, near trees, fire hydrants, people, whatever. 

I drove our squadron's van on the flightline of the airshow we had this weekend.  THOUSANDS of people everywhere.  I didn't hit anyone.

I honestly can't stand using a spotter.  I don't need someone else backing me into something because they don't understand the turning radius of the vehicle I'm driving, or that I can't turn that hard, etc.  I've seen spotters make backing up a far more difficult task than it needed to be, making the driver have to make 3-4 attempts at a straight shot.

[SarDragon]

One of my teen jobs was driver for an auto parts store. I drove a full size van with all metal sides. There were windows in the doors, front and rear, and mirrors on both sides. Parking in the back of the store involved backing up an alley with a right angle turn to the back of the store, all with just mirrors. Backing anything else I've driven has been relatively easy.