CAP Talk

Operations => Emergency Services & Operations => Topic started by: wmackirdy on November 20, 2018, 04:08:46 PM

Title: ES: Map Reading
Post by: wmackirdy on November 20, 2018, 04:08:46 PM
Does CAP have an official map reading course? Is it found somewhere in the Emergency Services area?
Title: Re: ES: Map Reading
Post by: NIN on November 20, 2018, 05:06:26 PM
Quote from: wmackirdy on November 20, 2018, 04:08:46 PM
Does CAP have an official map reading course? Is it found somewhere in the Emergency Services area?

No, not really. There's the tasks in the task guide, but much like the old SMART book, its more of a "this is what need to know/demonstrate" rather than an actual couorse.

Although, honestly: All I've really done for map reading for ES is essentially the old SMCT/SMART book map reading tasks, with the possible exception of adding Lat/Long alongside UTM
Title: Re: ES: Map Reading
Post by: wmackirdy on November 20, 2018, 05:52:20 PM
I was afraid that was the case. I am looking for something to teach cadets. I spent 19 years as an Army field artillery officer, starting out in Vietnam as a 2LT field artillery forward observer with a light infantry company in triple canopy jungle (not, rain forest), and rice paddies.

Unfortunately, the Army doesn't use LatLong for navigation, although I am familiar with the system. But, using it for navigation, especially land navigation, is not something I have done. Oh well, I will keep looking.

Thanks for the feedback. Anyone else?
Title: Re: ES: Map Reading
Post by: wmackirdy on November 20, 2018, 05:55:12 PM
So, what have others used to teach cadets? Particularly, ground team land navigation?
Title: Re: ES: Map Reading
Post by: PHall on November 20, 2018, 05:56:51 PM
Have you tried looking to see what the Boy Scouts use? They use Lat/Long.
Title: Re: ES: Map Reading
Post by: Gunsotsu on November 20, 2018, 06:01:16 PM
Lat/Long should only be used for familiarization purposes, one should never attempt land nav using only lat/long. If you aren't teaching/using UTM in your GT training, you shouldn't be teaching land nav to anyone.

As to resources, there's nothing wrong with good old FM 3-25.26. It's Joe-proof.
Title: Re: ES: Map Reading
Post by: Eclipse on November 20, 2018, 06:03:50 PM
Quote from: Gunsotsu on November 20, 2018, 06:01:16 PM
Lat/Long should only be used for familiarization purposes, one should never attempt land nav using only lat/long. If you aren't teaching/using UTM in your GT training, you shouldn't be teaching land nav to anyone.

Sorry - strongly disagree.  The civilian world lives in Lat/Long, not UTM.
Title: Re: ES: Map Reading
Post by: Eclipse on November 20, 2018, 06:08:49 PM
Quote from: wmackirdy on November 20, 2018, 04:08:46 PM
Does CAP have an official map reading course? Is it found somewhere in the Emergency Services area?

Yes.

Land Navigation for GTM: http://nesa.cap.gov/s/LNGTM.PPT

Land Navigation for GTL:  http://nesa.cap.gov/s/LNGTL.PPT

The rest of the GSAR Curriculum:  http://nesa.cap.gov/gsar-curriculum/
Title: Re: ES: Map Reading
Post by: wmackirdy on November 20, 2018, 06:10:12 PM
Gunsotsu,

I am very familiar with UTM, and that aspect of land nav. Does CAP have a source for UTM maps? How do ground teams communicate with air crews? Do air crews use UTM? All my communications with air crews as an MRO has been with LatLong. (BTW - I have only been in CAP for 13 months, so I am still trying to get the lay of the land, so to speak)

Title: Re: ES: Map Reading
Post by: Eclipse on November 20, 2018, 06:20:06 PM
Quote from: wmackirdy on November 20, 2018, 06:10:12 PM
Does CAP have a source for UTM maps?

No.  But then again it doesn't have an official source for any maps.

Quote from: wmackirdy on November 20, 2018, 06:10:12 PM
How do ground teams communicate with air crews?

Via radio. (and sometimes hand signals and panels).

Quote from: wmackirdy on November 20, 2018, 06:10:12 PM
Do air crews use UTM?

No.
Title: Re: ES: Map Reading
Post by: Gunsotsu on November 20, 2018, 06:37:25 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on November 20, 2018, 06:03:50 PM
Sorry - strongly disagree.  The civilian world lives in Lat/Long, not UTM.

I guess I'll go let my state and country EMA and SAR teams know they're wrong then. Lat/long is an antiquated system that's long past it's usefulness. UTM is significantly more accurate, has less inherent problems, and is a lot easier to learn and use.   

CAP doesn't source maps, that's on the individual. To that end, the USGS has all their maps free online and you can either print them or order them. As to the communications issue, aircrews use lat/long (and shouldn't) so knowledge of both systems are key, but that burden is unfairly put on the ground team. To that end, there is an app called "Coordinate Converter" that will make that easier for you.   
Title: Re: ES: Map Reading
Post by: TheSkyHornet on November 20, 2018, 06:37:40 PM
Come on, guys.

MGRS!
Title: Re: ES: Map Reading
Post by: wmackirdy on November 20, 2018, 06:57:14 PM
Eclipse,

I know they communicate by radio...I talk with both. But, our pilots all use LatLong. If LatLong is not good for ground navigation, what do the ground teams use to translate LatLong sent by the air crews? Somehow, they have to get on the same sheet of music.

Can someone explain what is standard operating procedure for air crew/ground team coordination?
Title: Re: ES: Map Reading
Post by: Live2Learn on November 20, 2018, 06:58:55 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on November 20, 2018, 06:03:50 PM
Quote from: Gunsotsu on November 20, 2018, 06:01:16 PM
Lat/Long should only be used for familiarization purposes, one should never attempt land nav using only lat/long. If you aren't teaching/using UTM in your GT training, you shouldn't be teaching land nav to anyone.

Sorry - strongly disagree.  The civilian world lives in Lat/Long, not UTM.

+1

SAR, DR, Etc. in every one of the western states where I've worked all rely on Lat/Long.  I have never (ever) used UTM for any purpose in any cockpit, nor have I seen it used by other civilian pilots.  Some states use the full degree, minute, second format, but most use either degree-decimal minutes or degree-minute-decimal seconds formats.  Basic map reading skills (incuding accurate interpretation of symbolic terrain on topog maps - digital or paper) is a critical skill for ground teams. 

FWIW, if pilots are flying close and personal to terrain it's a critical skill for them too.   The magenta line has little utility in practical land nav or for low level flight ops. 

Over decades in the woods of the PNW, CA, and other western states I can count on one hand the number of times I used UTM or similar grid systems.  That said, old Land Office township, range, section surveys are still used by wildland fire organizations in all western states, plus they form the basis for land lines (aka "property boundaries).  If training land navigation in the west mentioning that antiquated and qwerky system would be worthwile.
Title: Re: ES: Map Reading
Post by: Eclipse on November 20, 2018, 07:01:29 PM
Quote from: Gunsotsu on November 20, 2018, 06:37:25 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on November 20, 2018, 06:03:50 PM
Sorry - strongly disagree.  The civilian world lives in Lat/Long, not UTM.

I guess I'll go let my state and country EMA and SAR teams know they're wrong then. Lat/long is an antiquated system that's long past it's usefulness. UTM is significantly more accurate, has less inherent problems, and is a lot easier to learn and use.   

Please do, and feel free to use my name to move things forward.

You're confusing a technical discussion on the relative merits of systems, vs. the reality of what is actually in use.

Every GPS unit a member is going to reasonably own uses Lat / Long, including every cell phone, which
in most cases is all you really need.  That's what the aircraft use as well. And most members are picking
up a Gazeteer at Staples for their mapping.

CAP operates in a +/-5° envelope.  Arguing about which coordinate system is "more accurate" doesn't mean much
in that paradigm.

Your time would be better spent working to standardize CAP between degrees/minutes/seconds vs. decimal degrees.
An issue which still regularly cause issues on CAP missions.

Mil-radians are more accurate as well. Should CAP require artillery compasses for all GTLs and report azimuths in mils?
Title: Re: ES: Map Reading
Post by: Eclipse on November 20, 2018, 07:03:19 PM
Quote from: wmackirdy on November 20, 2018, 06:57:14 PM
Can someone explain what is standard operating procedure for air crew/ground team coordination?

CAP standard is Longitude and Latitude. With the D-M-S vs. decimal issue established
in the ICP depending on the equipment in the aircraft.

The links provided are to the national standard set by NESA as to land nav for GSAR.
Title: Re: ES: Map Reading
Post by: Eclipse on November 20, 2018, 07:07:05 PM
For what it is worth, UTM used to be in the GT taskings, but as I recall it was removed in
the 2004 revision - I don't see it in the GT&UDF task guide any more.

The term never comes up in SARExs, only in philosophical discussions.
Title: Re: ES: Map Reading
Post by: wmackirdy on November 20, 2018, 07:33:56 PM
Thanks everyone...this has been helpful, if a bit far ranging. I think I am in agreement that LatLong is pretty standard. Now I need to get up to speed, since all my training, and extensive experience, is with the field artillery.

I have found a site with pdf files for each of the Fieldbook chapters, including chapter 12, Navigation
Title: Re: ES: Map Reading
Post by: LSThiker on November 20, 2018, 07:45:44 PM
As a person that uses both UTM and Lat/Long on a regular basis, both systems have their advantages and disadvantages.  No Geographic Coordinate System is perfect.  CAP has a tendency to use Lat/Long for the simplicity that aviation uses Lat/Long.  That is, the FAA prints the sectionals using Lat/Long and not UTM.  The USGS prints maps using UTM with a general Lat/Long superimposed on.  For common day-to-day use maps, Lat/Long is what is used.  Therefore, it is more accessible to us.  While UTM provides a 10 m x 10 m (in practical sense for printed maps, but in theory 1 m x 1 m when using tools), it is not very accessible to members.  Yes, now we have smartphones, but we know how smartphones perform when we are in a critical phase of an operation.  Unfortunately, carrying around a whole set of USGS maps is not practical, and you cannot always count on phone internet access.  While UTM is great for ground teams, it is not practical for aircrews.  Likewise, while UTM, or even Lat/Long, is not always practical for ground teams, the Lat/Long is typically easier to get from either a smartphone or a DeLorme map.  However, if mission base knows how to use UTM and is willing to work with two geographic coordinate systems (UTM vs Lat/Long), then by all means use UTM.  But I would not expect an aircrew to know how to use UTM, nor would I ever expect them to make the conversion between UTM and Lat/Long.  That conversion would be a better task for the ground team.  Thus, if you are going to convert anyway, might as well use the Lat/Long.  Also, for the work we do Lat/Long gives a decent location for the accuracy we are working in.  That is, it does not matter whether we are 1 m off, or even 10 meters off, our location will be found easily. 

Personally, I like the use of UTM, especially since it is easier to calculate distance for doing ground work.  Our training used to mention UTM and our ground teams were, in theory, trained on UTM from 2001 to 2004.  It disappeared after 2004 because it was not accessible.  Today, even with smartphone technology, most people have a general understanding of what Lat/Long (GPS) coordinates are. 
Title: Re: ES: Map Reading
Post by: NIN on November 20, 2018, 08:01:47 PM
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on November 20, 2018, 06:37:40 PM
Come on, guys.

MGRS!

I MGRS quite well (shhh, my GPS is always set to MGRS...). However, you drop a set of MGRS coords on your average "customer," and they're going to give you this

(https://i.imgur.com/orNsFL9.jpg)

right back.

I recall we used to get lat/long from AFRCC on SARSAT & 406mhz beacon GPS hits. Those of us who spoke MGRS/UTM had to scratch our heads and fire up our lat/long to UTM/MGRS converter (GeoTrans or similar). But not many local outfits worked in UT/MGRS, so back the other way we'd go.

I know how to do lat/long, but I'm rusty as all get out.  Its a skill every GTL should have, at the very least.
Title: Re: ES: Map Reading
Post by: NIN on November 20, 2018, 08:08:29 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on November 20, 2018, 07:01:29 PM
Mil-radians are more accurate as well. Should CAP require artillery compasses for all GTLs and report azimuths in mils?

Gimme a second, I can't remember what pocket I stuck my M-2 in.

:)

BTW, for the MapNerdy among us (MapNerdy is like HamSexy, but with rulers and protractors and a map, of course), here's some light reading and tools, including GeoTrans both for PC/Mac/Linux and Android:

http://earth-info.nga.mil/GandG/update/index.php?action=home

and a very old document thats still pretty relevant:  http://earth-info.nga.mil/GandG/coordsys/mmr201.pdf

Title: Re: ES: Map Reading
Post by: wmackirdy on November 20, 2018, 08:12:00 PM
Eclipse,

Thanks for the NESA links. There are some good links there!
Title: Re: ES: Map Reading
Post by: wmackirdy on November 20, 2018, 08:14:50 PM
Now, could someone please explain the LatLong decimal system to me? Help?? I am guessing it is parts of one degree, but not sure.
Title: Re: ES: Map Reading
Post by: NIN on November 20, 2018, 08:21:23 PM
Quote from: wmackirdy on November 20, 2018, 08:14:50 PM
Now, could someone please explain the LatLong decimal system to me? Help?? I am guessing it is parts of one degree, but not sure.

Sure. You're used to "degrees, minutes, seconds" (where minutes and seconds are < 60).

So like 45° 58' 12" N or 72° 12' 59" W

Decimal degrees converts that out to a decimal number, such as "45.97° N" or "72.21639°"

Some aviation GPS units prefer to work in decimal degrees. I know my hand-held Garmin has both kinds: county & western.

ETA: Handy quick converter https://www.rapidtables.com/convert/number/degrees-minutes-seconds-to-degrees.html

Title: Re: ES: Map Reading
Post by: Jester on November 20, 2018, 08:22:29 PM
I was recently told that USNG is pretty much the standard for SAR outside of CAP. Pretty much the exact same thing as MGRS.
Title: Re: ES: Map Reading
Post by: THRAWN on November 20, 2018, 08:23:51 PM
Could always use this gem....

http://usahec.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/ref/collection/p16635coll24/id/4

The good ol' don't get lost in the woods, stupid....a comedy classic, like the 21-76, or "how to get killed in the woods quick" manual....
Title: Re: ES: Map Reading
Post by: Blanding on November 20, 2018, 11:54:42 PM
For what it's worth, the G1000 and smaller Garmin aviation GPS units are capable of displaying lat/long, MGRS, and UTM.

I'd happily switch the format to whatever is in use to coordinate with a ground team - not sure what the big deal there is.
Title: Re: ES: Map Reading
Post by: jeders on November 21, 2018, 12:03:37 AM
Quote from: Blanding on November 20, 2018, 11:54:42 PM
For what it's worth, the G1000 and smaller Garmin aviation GPS units are capable of displaying lat/long, MGRS, and UTM.

I'd happily switch the format to whatever is in use to coordinate with a ground team - not sure what the big deal there is.

Not all GPS units can do that and, more importantly, not all aircrews are aware or capable of doing that.
Title: Re: ES: Map Reading
Post by: husker on November 21, 2018, 12:44:01 AM
I've been fortunate to work and train with members from all every Wing in CAP (and some foreign countries) in my almost 20 years at NESA.  What I have learned is that many different coordinate systems are the "standard" in different regions of the country, and oftentimes vary from state to state (and oftentimes, vary in different parts of large states). 

As such, I believe that CAP members should be conversant in both systems, and fluent in whatever system is used most widely in their area.  CAP should also build relationships with the other players in their area, and learn to work in whatever coordinate system is most widely used in their AOR. 

As Ellipse and LTSHiker pointed out, UTM was in the curriculum from 1999 to 2004.  It was (unfortunately) taken out in the last revision, but believe me, it will find its way back.  Too many areas of the country and too many customers (or potential customers) use UTM. 

As an aside, we used to task on polar projections as well.   :)

The issue of different systems of Lat/Long is quite a pet peeve of mine.  We just can't seem to come to a standard of D M S, D.DDDDD, or D MM.MMM.  Even if we don't have a standard, operations would go much more smoothly if we would simply use proper radio protocol when relaying coordinates.  I can't tell you how many times over the years I've heard "location is three two, one nine, two three by eight six, thirty two, forty five."  Does this mean 32 19' 23" 86 32' 45", or 32 19.23' 86 32.450'?  To a ground team, that makes a big difference.

I've been doing ES training since my cadet days, and I'm an expert at field expedient tactical radio communications (read that as = bad protocol).  Oftentimes, I'll sit in my while my Basic schools cover ICUT, just to remind me on what I should be doing.  If we all endeavor to use proper radio protocol when relaying coordinates, we could greatly cut down on the confusion - "my location is three two degrees one niner decimal two three minutes north,  eight six degrees, three two decimal four five minutes West."
Title: Re: ES: Map Reading
Post by: sardak on November 21, 2018, 01:38:21 AM
US National Grid (USNG) was adopted in 2001 by the Federal Geographic Data Committee (FGDC), made up of many US Government departments. The USNG is functionally equivalent to the Military Grid Reference System (MGRS) and both are based on the Universal Transverse Mercator (UTM) system. USNG was pretty much ignored until after Katrina in 2005. The AARs led to its becoming widely used.

Since 2010 all US Geological Survey 7.5 minute topos have the 1000 meter UTM grid squares printed on them with the USNG info in the margin. Lat/lon is still printed just as tic marks every 2.5 minutes.

The Land SAR supplement to the US National SAR Manual (federal National SAR Committee document) states that USNG is the primary point reference system for Land SAR responders, and lat/lon is primary for Aeronautical SAR responders. It notes that "Aeronautical SAR responders working with Land SAR responders have the primary responsibility of coordinating SAR using USNG. However both groups must become familiar with both georeference systems."[/i]

In 2015 FEMA published directive 092-5 which states "The purpose of this Directive is to require use of the USNG as FEMA's standard geographic reference system across all preparedness, mitigation, response, and recovery activities as well as land-based and land-air operations and to provide instruction for effective implementation."

NASAR SAR Tech III and II require demonstration of plotting coordinates in UTM. SAR Tech I requires following a nav course given in UTM coordinates.

ASTM standard F2209 for land search team member requires plotting coordinates in lat/lon, UTM and USNG.

Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Instruction CJCSI 3900.01D requires MGRS for ground units and ground combat operations. USNG may be used for homeland security and homeland defense.

UTM was a required task (O-0208) for GTL and UDF from 1999 to 2004, when it was dropped.

Format for lat/lon?
From the Land SAR addendum: "Latitude and longitude should be in one standard format: DD MM.mm. [that's degrees, minutes, decimal minutes] If required, use up to 2 digits to the right of the decimal."

And the Coast Guard addendum: "Lat/Long in degrees, minutes and tenths of minutes." Both of the addendums note that latitude is written before longitude.

From CJCSI 3900.01D "Latitude and longitude will be expressed in degrees, minutes and decimal minutes (DDMM.mmmm)." It requires four digits right of the decimal.

SARSAT coordinates are in DD MM.m, (one digit to the right of the decimal) for LEOSAR, MEOSAR, and Confirmed Position (formerly know as Merge or Composite). Encoded positions (from GPS) are DD MM.mm (two digits right of the decimal). However the two digits won't be from .00 to .99, the system limits them to increments of 4 seconds, so .00, .07, .13,...., .80, .87, .93.

The FAA on the other hand, has no consistent policy on lat/lon format, nor does the CAP National Radar Analysis Team.

FWIW, in our state the unwritten accepted practices are  DD MM.mm for the fixed wing and helo crews and UTM for ground SAR.  Every GPS I've used has UTM in addition to lat/lon, and most made in the last 10 years also have MGRS and/or USNG (which are interchangeable).  Plenty of GPS and coordinate conversion apps for phones and tablets.

As a former AFRCC commander said, "Fifty states, fifty ways of doing SAR" (unfortunately).

Mike
Title: Re: ES: Map Reading
Post by: NIN on November 21, 2018, 02:16:19 AM
Hey thanks Mike! That was literally one of the best things I've read on CAP Talk in a while
Title: Re: ES: Map Reading
Post by: etodd on November 21, 2018, 04:02:08 AM
The Cessna Pilots Guide for G1000. On the MFD, The System Setup Page is the fourth AUX Page and provides access (via a list of menu options) to manage Map Datum and Position Formats.  So that you can change it to match the system in use by Mission Base and Ground Teams:

Page 7-116 here:

https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/G1000_CessnaNavIII_PilotsGuide_545EDB6488D6F.pdf (https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/G1000_CessnaNavIII_PilotsGuide_545EDB6488D6F.pdf)
Title: Re: ES: Map Reading
Post by: GroundHawg on November 21, 2018, 03:34:32 PM
Quote from: NIN on November 21, 2018, 02:16:19 AM
Hey thanks Mike! That was literally one of the best things I've read on CAP Talk in a while

I will second that.

Great post that puts a lot into perspective. I guess as GT, we need to have the ability to work in multiple formats simultaneously.
Title: Re: ES: Map Reading
Post by: Eclipse on November 21, 2018, 03:50:03 PM
Quote from: GroundHawg on November 21, 2018, 03:34:32 PMas GT, we need to have the ability to work in multiple formats simultaneously.

Simultaneously?  No.

Assuming for the moment anyone in CAP is using UTM, which I'm not buying, a GT is not going to be
expected to operate in multiple environments at the same time.

Whatever the format (hint it's Lat / Long) will be established in the ICP and all teams and crews will use the same.
I can't imagine the "fun" it would be for GTs to start reporting in UTM when everyone else is on Lat / Long.

UTM is not in the CAP lexicon.  It might be "better! stronger! faster!", but there is no requirement from a
doctrine or curriculum standpiint that UTM ever even comes up in conversation, and if it does, it's because of the requirements of a
local relationship, or an HAA  that decides to extend training regardless of its utility to CAP, which makes it irrelevant to the "CAP standard".
Title: Re: ES: Map Reading
Post by: TheSkyHornet on November 21, 2018, 03:56:54 PM
Quote from: NIN on November 20, 2018, 08:01:47 PM
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on November 20, 2018, 06:37:40 PM
Come on, guys.

MGRS!

I MGRS quite well (shhh, my GPS is always set to MGRS...). However, you drop a set of MGRS coords on your average "customer," and they're going to give you this...

I recall we used to get lat/long from AFRCC on SARSAT & 406mhz beacon GPS hits. Those of us who spoke MGRS/UTM had to scratch our heads and fire up our lat/long to UTM/MGRS converter (GeoTrans or similar). But not many local outfits worked in UT/MGRS, so back the other way we'd go.


I love the ease and feasibility of MGRS. I'm pretty good with it myself. And it's a great teaching tool.

It's just not necessarily adaptable to the "outside world," and understandably because it doesn't interface with multiple organizations (both military and civilian) and requires conversions. For ground trekking, it's awesome.
Title: Re: ES: Map Reading
Post by: Jester on November 21, 2018, 04:41:06 PM
If you use USNG, MGRS is directly applicable.

In my group we've started using USNG on the ground. Still need to get the aircrews on the same page, I have to figure out if they have the capability to use both.
Title: Re: ES: Map Reading
Post by: NIN on November 21, 2018, 06:37:36 PM
And really, MGRS & UTM are directly applicable to each other, with some prefix / zone changes.  That link I posted earlier offered up some tips for "converting" the markings on the map.
Title: Re: ES: Map Reading
Post by: Larry Mangum on November 21, 2018, 07:52:44 PM
"Be expert with Map & Compass" is highly recommended for teaching people how to use a map and compass. You can get it on Amazon. https://www.amazon.com/Expert-Map-Compass-Bjorn-Kjellstrom/dp/0470407654
Title: Re: ES: Map Reading
Post by: etodd on November 21, 2018, 08:03:12 PM
From FEMA, one of CAPs largest customers:

QuoteAt FEMA, we're encouraging the adoption of the USNG for several reasons:

It's simple to implement and easy to use.
It provides interoperability, or a "common language", by making available a grid reference system that is seamless across jurisdictional boundaries.
It provides scalability. Whether you have access to sophisticated geospatial software or are simply using a paper map, USNG can be used to pinpoint locations and make better operational decisions.
GPS devices complement USNG.  Most GPS receivers can translate GPS coordinates into the USNG grid.
As an example of USNG's use, FEMA's Urban Search and Rescue Response teams use it for positioning during search and rescue operations.  It is just one component of a geo-referencing matrix that is used for planning, coordination and information sharing purposes.

More ...

https://www.fema.gov/blog/2011-02-10/great-mapping-debate (https://www.fema.gov/blog/2011-02-10/great-mapping-debate)
Title: Re: ES: Map Reading
Post by: CAPLTC on November 26, 2018, 12:24:47 AM
Who in the civilian world?
At the Federal civilian level, we have been using USNG for a while.
We can transliterate anything from A to B in Esri apps.
But the preferred input/output is USNG.

Quote from: Eclipse on November 20, 2018, 06:03:50 PM
Sorry - strongly disagree.  The civilian world lives in Lat/Long, not UTM.

YEP!
Exactly:
Quote from: etodd on November 21, 2018, 08:03:12 PM
From FEMA, one of CAPs largest customers:
https://www.fema.gov/blog/2011-02-10/great-mapping-debate (https://www.fema.gov/blog/2011-02-10/great-mapping-debate)
Title: Re: ES: Map Reading
Post by: CAP9907 on November 26, 2018, 12:47:45 AM
I'm in the New England AOR and have not heard a customer request USNG nor have I used (or trained with) it in the last 10 years...  Lat/Long has and continues to work in my area.