Specialty Merging - Why Not?

[SDF_Specialist]

So I walk talking to my wife the other night, still venting about a few things that's happened to me since I've been in CAP, and I started to question something to myself. Why can't NHQ merge Administration and Personnel, and make them one specialty? From all I've seen, it's rare to meet up with someone who is enrolled in just one of the two. Wouldn't it be more beneficial to have them merged, rather than two separate? This could save the CC from having to fill a position if a member decides to pursue just one. I don't know. To me, it just makes a little more sense. Anyone else feel this way?

[lordmonar]

Why merge them?

What value do you gain for changing the system?

It costs nothing extra to do what we do today...double enroll.

[SDF_Specialist]

Well, it could be just a little extra satisfaction for one. The value IMHO is you have one less thing to worry about. I just don't see where it hurts.

[SarDragon]

I think it's because they are two different jobs, with two somewhat different skillsets. The military has them as two different AFSCs/MOSs/ratings because they see a difference. Also, I think that it's too much to ask for one person to do both jobs in a unit anything bigger than the minimum size to maintain a charter. BTDT - no fun. At all.

[mikeylikey]

I whip through admin and personnel functions in just under 10 minutes at the local SQD meeting.  Especially now that forms and pubs are online!  The most time spent is sitting at the copier. 

Merging the two functions would probably be good. 

[ThorntonOL]

Merging would be ok if everyone had access to computers at the unit level but I'm not sure if everyone does. My unit uses both paper and computer and it takes a ittle while to do all of it.
Mainly depending on if the Personnel or Admin officer is present. Usually one of the two is.
Yes it gets done weekly to biweekly and is done quickly but there is a difference between the two.

[Hawk200]

I did Personnel for CAP for about 7 years. I've read the CAPP 205, and it isn't something that holds any interest for me. Personnel is about people, Admin is about paper.

I spent more time doing Personnel and Senior Programs (or Professional Development, or whatever else they're callling it this week)together, and found those go hand in hand a great deal. I've been dual hatted for both a number of times, and accomplished a lot that way.

Out of the units I've been in, Admin didn't really pair that often with Personnel or SP (or PD). Most of the time personnel was vacant, and the commander did it or else the individual typed up their own docs and got signature. Neither is really compatible with having squared away records, as people tend to just drop stuff in their 201 and stick it back in the drawer.

All in all, the two tracks are not the same thing with different names. The military, corporations, even small business consider them different for very legitimate reasons. No reason we shouldn't.

[jimmydeanno]

...Personnel is about people, Admin is about paper....

The military, corporations, even small business consider them different for very legitimate reasons. No reason we shouldn't.

That is my take on it.

If I use the place I work as a model.  The personnel people (HR) handle all the HR related stuff.  Insurance, employee reviews, employee record keeping, benefits related issues, terminations, hiring, etc.

The "administrators" or admin people organize their bosses schedules, prepare correspondence for the company, make travel arrangements for those who they serve, make sure there are office supplies, answer the phones, etc.

Two very different positions with two very different skill sets.

We also have to remember that the intent of the specialties is often lost in the lackluster job descriptions that CAP has or peoples interpretations of what they should do.  Take PAO for example.  When was the last time you saw a unit commander seek the advice of a PAO on how a decision might affect the publics perception of the unit?

I don't think the two should be combined.  What I think should/needs to be done is better job descriptions to clarify any misconceptions about what the job functions actually are.

[RiverAux]

I'm in favor of merging them.  The functions are so closely related as to be interchangable in my book.  Besides, I'd rather keep the number of people messing around with member records and squadron files to a minimum. 

[jimmydeanno]

Besides, I'd rather keep the number of people messing around with member records and squadron files to a minimum. 

Why is your admin officer mucking with personnel records anyway, are they the same person? 

Administrative Officer
Implements, manages and directs administrative services activities. They shall:
Implement administrative policies and procedures.
Control correspondence (including messages).
Prepare and authenticate administrative authorizations.
Prepare local publications and forms.
Perform related duties as assigned by the unit commander.
The administrative officer should be familiar primarily with CAPP 205 and CAP directives in the 5 and 10 series.


Personnel Officer
Manages and administers the CAP personnel program and associated administrative procedures to include:
Membership records and applications
Confidential screening (FBI fingerprint cards)
Organizational actions (charters, deactivations, etc.)
Appointments
Promotions and demotions
Awards and decorations
Duty assignments
Transfers
Retirements
Membership terminations/nonrenewals
Uniforms
The personnel officer at all levels should be familiar with the Constitution and Bylaws, CAPP 200 and CAP directives in the 20, 35, and 39 series.

[TankerT]

I whip through admin and personnel functions in just under 10 minutes at the local SQD meeting.  Especially now that forms and pubs are online!  The most time spent is sitting at the copier. 

You must have a small unit, that gets very little mail.

[RiverAux]

Why is your admin officer mucking with personnel records anyway, are they the same person

All in the same filing cabinet -- and we've never actually had separate people doing those jobs in my squadron (at least not in recent history). 

The Admin officers duties are pretty much non-existent today anyway since there is very little, if any, written correspondence.  In looking at the duties in the above message, the entire position could just about be eliminated as unnecessary.  The Personnel Officer on the other hand has a lot to do. 

[Hawk200]

I'm in favor of merging them.  The functions are so closely related as to be interchangable in my book.  Besides, I'd rather keep the number of people messing around with member records and squadron files to a minimum. 

I don't know the admin side other than what is in CAPP 205, but I do know that it does not match up with what I've done in Personnel. Admin has nothing to do with Personnel folders. Admin doesn't create them, they only maintain the forms necessary (among other things) that are used in a 201.

Now the personnel folder has entries made by the Personnel Officer, the Senior Programs officer, and the ES officer. According to 39-2, maintenance of it may (not will) be delegated to the Admin officer. But a Senior Programs officer makes regular entries as well. In the case of a cadet record, the Cadet Programs officer adds things on a regular basis.

Let's look at it this way: What is in the 201 file that an Admin person needs to be dealing with? Nothing. There is nothing they need to order, type up, or place in that record. The awards and decs should be written up by the Personnel person, and that person should be ones bothering the commander for signatures. Admin people have their own job that requires time to do it.

Not everything that requires a person to touch a piece of paper requires the Admin person to do it. Their job requires a lot more work than most people seem to realize. Don't just consolidate things arbitrarily.

[Hawk200]

I think here's a couple of good places to start:

Personnel Officer: http://level2.cap.gov/documents/u_082503084547.pdf

Admin Officer: http://level2.cap.gov/documents/u_082503084705.pdf

Read them both. Note how many commonalities in taskings there are. Unless there is at a least a 50 percent commonality in identical tasks, then there is no reason to merge the specialties.

If anything could be combined, I could see Personnel and Senior Programs. Since there is just as much on the cadet side, I could understand a Cadet Personnel track. Or one specialty with two different "ASI's". Someone handling the Senior Program side could be a 200A, and the person on the Cadet side of the house would be a 200B. Eliminate the Senior Programs/Professional Development as a specialty track altogether.

[RiverAux]

I'd rather have the PD guy focus on the people and their needs rather than processing paperwork.  But, I could see making it an optional split position (like is done for the ES and OPS positions) so that if a squadron had the people to do both, they could. 

[IceNine]

It's much easier to leave this to the unit cc's discretion. 

Because my Admin guy is also my PDO and Personnel guy.  but that is at group

My old unit had 2 personnel (cadet and senior) the cadet personnel person did admin as well.  the senior personnel person did Prof Dev. 

Its a matter of what works best for the size of unit, how the files are managed, time required, etc.

[RiverAux]

After looking at the admin track guide, I'm even more of the opinion that this job could be done away with entirely.  About half the things it mentions there are no longer necessary due to the way we have gone electronic. 

[SAR-EMT1]

As for merging or not merging... no.

Second, I belong to a unit that doesnt have internet access at the unit. So that is totally paper. Then after the meetings, we have to transfer data to eservices at home.

[SDF_Specialist]

As for merging or not merging... no.

Second, I belong to a unit that doesnt have internet access at the unit. So that is totally paper. Then after the meetings, we have to transfer data to eservices at home.

My unit has to do the same. This is where I got the idea. Instead of trying to coordinate with someone else, you can have the same person doing it all when it comes to Admin/Personnel. This job really isn't that demanding if you take your time, and do it the right way. But if you don't, then you end up with one big Charlie Foxtrot of a file cabinet. Yes, they have two different descriptions, but they all result in the coming back to the file cabinet. Having internet access would be nice, but not all units have that ability.

[RiverAux]

Second, I belong to a unit that doesnt have internet access at the unit. So that is totally paper.

Yeah, but just what is the admin guy doing?  Just ordering forms?  Yes, a lot of the Personnel stuff still needs paper, so wouldn't it make sense for the guy actually using all the paper to be the one in charge of ordering the forms (those that actually can be ordered) or printing them out at the house? 

The other thing the Admin used to do was keep the regulation book up to date.  I don't know anyone that is doing that anymore.  If you're doing it, you have more to spend on paper and toner than I do.  Pretty much all the paperwork that comes back to the squadron is going to someone other than the Admin guy anyway, so whoever picks up the mail can put the personnel stuff in the Personnel box, the ES stuff in the ES box, etc. 

Has anyone gotten any general CAP correspondence that just arrived on paper in years?  Usually it is a printed version of something you got by email weeks in the past. 

Basically, the position is a holdover from the old days when you made the guy who could type the admin officer (note the specialty track form has "types correspondence...." as the first, and presumably most important, duty. 

If the commander wants to do an Administrative Authorization, he should probably just type it up himself. 

At the squadron level, I don't see a need for that position.  At group -- maybe.  At wing, probably as they do have a lot more paperwork to do in general. 

[Hawk200]

You think they should be combined because they both touch a file cabinet? That's not even a remotely valid justification. One handles personnel matters, the other handles paperwork, form stocking, correspondance, etc. The two don't even perform even remotely similar functions. The contents of the drawers would be completely different; the Admin officer has no real reason to deal with anything personnel wise, and the Personnel officer doesn't need to be touching admin's stuff.

Just because a few unit commanders designate one person to do both doesn't mean they're the same thing. I've got seven years doing personnel, and the only time I've ever really coordinated with the admin officer is to request forms be ordered, or to see if a pub is available in hardcopy. That's it. Coordination with the admin person a few times doesn't mean that they are the same job.

Have you ever done Personnel or Admin? If you haven't, then you need to do one or the other and see how they work. Not both at once, and don't dip your toes in the other's pool.

[Hawk200]

?  Yes, a lot of the Personnel stuff still needs paper, so wouldn't it make sense for the guy actually using all the paper to be the one in charge of ordering the forms (those that actually can be ordered) or printing them out at the house?

That's it? That's the justification? The personnel guy uses paper so he should be the Admin guy? How many other duties in a unit require forms? Just about every one of them has some kind of form to fill out, many far more than the personnel track. That is a flimsy supposition.

I would guess that you have done neither of these tracks. If you have, I don't think you knew either one very well. They are not interchangeable. Don't be looking for a solution that doesn't have a problem.

[RiverAux]

Been a squadron commander with a limited staff -- close enough. 

Funny, I would have thought there would have been more support for the concept of combining or eliminating positions that are no longer necessary.  Seems to me that quite a few squadrons have more than enough problems finding warm bodies even willing to consider doing staff jobs for CAP, so why waste a person on a position with little actual work associated with it?  If someone isn't ready for one of the "big" jobs, but wants to help, make him an assistant for someone that is already overloaded rather than giving them a makework job. 

The specialty track guide for Admin is a total joke.  If I was looking for the easiest way to go through CAP's PD program to get rank, that would have been the way to do it.  Basically, all you actually have to do is serve in that position -- I know of at least one unit that has a BUNCH of folks assigned to that job and the only reason I can think of is that its the CAP equivalent of the underwater basketweaving class from college. 

At one time Admin probably was a very demanding and necesary position, but that is no longer the case. 

[Hawk200]

I think that rather than dumping the Admin job on someone, it should be evaluated for duties that are more current and include those in the job description. There are probably things being done by Admin folks that just aren't covered in the breakdown. Which means that someone new coming into it isn't getting the whole story.

When things change so much that the pamphlet doesn't cover it, it's time for a rewrite. Eliminating the track just because it isn't current isn't very smart, and probably not practical.

[SDF_Specialist]

So why not just evaluate the most important job duties of either Administration or Personnel, then eliminate one of them? Having a rating in both, I don't see where it is necessary to have both.

[Hawk200]

So why not just evaluate the most important job duties of either Administration or Personnel, then eliminate one of them? Having a rating in both, I don't see where it is necessary to have both.

What gain does it serve? How does it benefit the unit?

I've done personnel, and it's something I've done well. I get things done for people, and I really would rather not have more work to do than what I have now. I put more than a few hours in in a week with it, and I'd really rather not have to handle a library and a forms base too. Every week brings new work in personnel, and being the ProDev officer also, I have more than enough work in either one. I could use an assistant in one or the other, or even both, but if we had enough bodies for that, I wouldn't be doubled up in the first place.

So what exactly makes you so mad that consolidating Admin and Personnel will fix it? I don't see anything solved by such an action other than a personal agenda.

[SDF_Specialist]

So what exactly makes you so mad that consolidating Admin and Personnel will fix it? I don't see anything solved by such an action other than a personal agenda.

Never said anything about being mad. I'm simply just meaning why not reduce the stress on the commander of having to find someone who is willing to do both rather than having two different people work side by side to get things done. It saves a hassle.

[Hawk200]

Never said anything about being mad. I'm simply just meaning why not reduce the stress on the commander of having to find someone who is willing to do both rather than having two different people work side by side to get things done. It saves a hassle.

I based that analysis on this:

So I walk talking to my wife the other night, still venting about a few things that's happened to me since I've been in CAP, and I started to question something to myself. Why can't NHQ merge Administration and Personnel, and make them one specialty?

If you're venting about something and considering a merger between specialty tracks, the reasoning is that the specialty tracks is what you were venting about. If I was irritated about something, I wouldn't suddenly be thinking of specialty tracks.

From all I've seen, it's rare to meet up with someone who is enrolled in just one of the two. Wouldn't it be more beneficial to have them merged, rather than two separate? This could save the CC from having to fill a position if a member decides to pursue just one. I don't know. To me, it just makes a little more sense. Anyone else feel this way?

I haven't seen it as all that rare. I've been assigned to four units, and they were entirely separate. I've visited a dozen others, and I've only known of that combination in two of them. When there were dual hats, most people had Admin and ES, or Personnel and Safety, combos like that. Personnel, Admin, and Senior Programs have been considered "minor" jobs in most units that I have ever seen (don't agree, that's just what I've seen), and each person usually had one "minor" job and one "major" one, sometimes several people had the same "minor" tracks.

Also, a lot people start out in those less intensive specialties when they first join. It gives them a chance to learn about CAP, and then move up. It avoids immediate overload that could cost you a new member over the first few months. I started out doing Safety in my first unit, and regretted it, it's not an easy track, and I was only in a ground unit. I stuck to it, but a lot of people don't. We really don't need to make it harder for a single individual when the work can be divvied up.

[ThorntonOL]

Comparatively I thought Logistics specialty track was a joke, especially if you have a small squadron with a small meeting place. (for me this changed when our unit moved.)
It hasn't been updated for a while and I think there is a need to at least rewrite all the specialty tracks that are over eight years old to at least make it relveant to today. (Well maybe not relevant but at least include the new regs with them and figure out the ECI courses.)
Don't worry I'm not trying to diss Logistics, i'm a logisitcs officer in my unit. (I'm only an  assistant as the head ogisitcs officer does similar work for his regular job.)

[RiverAux]

It hasn't been updated for a while and I think there is a need to at least rewrite all the specialty tracks that are over eight years old to at least make it relveant to today. (Well maybe not relevant but at least include the new regs with them and figure out the ECI courses.)

I think we can all agree that the specialty tracks need to be updated and at least roughly standardized in terms of time-in-position requirements and relative complexity of duties. 

[Short Field]

I don't know the admin side other than what is in CAPP 205, but I do know that it does not match up with what I've done in Personnel.

Same here.  I got enrolled in Admin first because that is what the unit thought it needed.  After a month, I was moved to Personnel.  So my Master rating is in Personnel with a None rating in Admin.  Apples and oranges, plus separate filing cabinets and separate rooms in the building.