Cadets-are we in Seniors eyes too young?

Started by c/LTCOLorbust, December 15, 2005, 06:06:23 PM

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c/LTCOLorbust

I have been looking over a lot of post and I have seen a lot of talk from some senior members about us as cadets being to young, to serve and take part in our call from our country, as far as SAR, ES, and DR missions or leadership even. Even at the age of 18 I still get some senior members let me know that I am only a kid and that I just need to wait and become a senior member to do any thing. Even some seniors in my own unit may think this from time to time.(like I said some, not all) I am not saying this is something from every one, a lot of senior members I know and have had the chance to serve with and for, would say other wise and say we as cadets do have a big part in our mission or missions in CAP. In your view are we just senior members in traning and am I just westing my time, or do we have a part? I hate to think that all I have done over the past 3 years was for nothing and that I am and all cadets for that matter are just senior members in training.
1Lt. Joshua M. Bergland
Yakima Composite SQ.
WA Wing

Pace

It varies from SM to SM.  Some think cadets are worthless to operational missions, and some are die-hard advocates for including cadets.  Most take it on a case by case basis.

And if you think it sucks getting turned down or micromanaged because of you age as a cadet, try having the exact same thing happen as a new/young SM.  It's even more aggravating because now their excuse no longer exists, but they still treat you like a child.
Lt Col, CAP

CAPRANGER

Howdy folks.

I totally agree that it depends on the Senior Member you are involved with.  I have had great SM's wotking with me, letting me do what I was trained to do, respecting me, etc.  I have also had SM's that were complete stuck-up folks, that treated me like I was 8.  I know how to do my job, and do it well.  I t was the attitude that some portray, that makes it seem like they all are like that.  I'm glad that my squadron has excellent senior members though, we do most of the ES Training, and actual missons.  It just has nothing to do with cadet status.  If you know you're stuff, OK then, you're qualified.  I could be a SM right now if I wanted, I have the age factor, but that's not vitally important.  What is important is training these cadets to do an excellent job, in no matter what capacity they serve.  Just because someone has the status of "Cadet", doesn't mean they are any less or more of a person.  We must stand up and look at Cadets and SM's qualifications objectively, not to play favorites, but so "Performing Missions for America" can be carried out in the most effective, responsible and professional manner.
//SIGNED//
JOSEPH S. GORGOGLIONE, A1C, USAF
USAF Command Post Controller
www.ctbrad.ang.af.mil
CAPSearchandRescue@gmail.com

Five-seveN

Ya, im a Cadet Major, and i cant stand Flight Officers at the age of 18 or 19 gettin all up in my face, i understand i salute the rank not the person, but still, i do my job, and show respect, and all should, respect is a 2 way street, you must give to get.


whatevah

Quote from: Five-seveN on December 15, 2005, 06:55:29 PM
Ya, im a Cadet Major, and i cant stand Flight Officers at the age of 18 or 19 gettin all up in my face, i understand i salute the rank not the person, but still, i do my job, and show respect, and all should, respect is a 2 way street, you must give to get.

no CAP member should be "gettin all up" in another's face, senior member nor cadet.  I do agree that some FO's do have attitude problems, though... usually the ones that were cadets for less than a year, or not at all.

I've had it both ways, treated like a dumb kid (worst by an NHQ staff, actually, when I was a TFO & on wing staff) and respected and consulted with by other seniors.  I've only had a few bad experiences with SMs, so it really varies SM to SM, and how you conduct yourself.  If you act responsibly and maturely, you'll usually get treated well, even if you're 14.  Act immaturely, and well... you'll get treated like a kid and for good reason.
Jerry Horn
CAPTalk Co-Admin

Pylon

Quote from: Five-seveN
Ya, im a Cadet Major, and i cant stand Flight Officers at the age of 18 or 19 gettin all up in my face, i understand i salute the rank not the person, but still, i do my job, and show respect, and all should, respect is a 2 way street, you must give to get.

Actually, even though this is off the main topic of discussion, I don't believe you need to salute the Flight Officers.  Check the regs.  :)

In addition, what Jerry said, there should be no "getting up in anyone's face."  It has nothing to do with superiority or outranking.  Leadership is not yelling, and if this is the case, higher authority ought to be brought in to put a stop to it.  CAP doesn't work like that, and those that insist that we ought to can find another organization in which to boss people around.




As for the topic at hand, yes, I've seen it.  I seen and heard of SMs who include cadets in everything under the sun, and I've seen SMs who would rather CAP be a SM-only organization.

Striking a good balance is the key, as well as recognizing that the Cadet Program has a different mission then the ES/Operational mission of CAP and they serve different purposes.  Since we are the same organization, cross-participation is good and should be encouraged, but one must realize that different ends are supposed to be achieved.

Balance is the key, and those who don't comprehend that balance, or the need for such a balance, should get a better look at before they're given a command.
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

thefischNX01

I'm a Technical Flight Officer, and was never a cadet, however, I always treated the Cadets (and in particular the Officers) with respect.  I found out very quickly that the cadet officers have a lot they can teach a new member, such as myself.  One Particular cadet I found knew CAP better than any senior member I've met since.  Therefore, I always make sure to treat the Cadets with respect, because sometimes they know something I don't. 
Capt. Colin Fischer, CAP
Deputy Commander for Cadets
Easton Composite Sqdn
Maryland Wing
http://whats-a-flight-officer.blogspot.com/

Eclipse

Senior members are adults.

Most adults respect performance and results, over jelly beans and grade, while this is true in the military, it is especially true in the volunteer, private-sector world of CAP.

There are plenty of cadets in ILWG that I would choose to work with over Seniors in an ES scenario any day of the week.

Your actions, appearance, and professionalism should DEMAND respect, while at the same time you EXPECT none.

Understand this, and you will not have issues with anyone, CAP or otherwise.

"That Others May Zoom"

footballrun21

As cadets we have more opportunities than seniors to do thing.  An example of this is at encampments.  The encampments are made for cadets, not seniors.  Cadets basically run them and seniors are only there to make sure everything goes OK and we don't do anything stupid.  No offense to any of the seniors, but CAP has mainly turned into a program mostly for teens and the SM role is more or less a babysitter.
C/2d Lt. Stephen Pettit, CAP
New Jersey Wing

Pylon

Quote from: footballrun21
As cadets we have more opportunities than seniors to do thing.  An example of this is at encampments.  The encampments are made for cadets, not seniors.  Cadets basically run them and seniors are only there to make sure everything goes OK and we don't do anything stupid.  No offense to any of the seniors, but CAP has mainly turned into a program mostly for teens and the SM role is more or less a babysitter.

Ah, not true, my young padawan.  While the cadets are supposed to implement their own cadet program, Seniors have far more life experience and knowledge to help guide their cadets, as mentors.  The Seniors are not glorified baby-sitters, as the cadets don't "know it all" (of course, nobody does, but some know more than others).  Learning to grow as a leader under the guidance of SMs is not what babysitters do.  Babysitters passively watch.  Big difference.

Learn that you can learn from your S'members.  Ask them for their thoughts on a matter, seek their advice on a problem (even if you think you have it solved already).  You might gain some new perspective.
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

footballrun21

Sorry, I guess using the term babysitter was not the best choice of words.  What I meant was that most seniors are in it for the cadets.  Almost all the seniors I've talked to have said that they joined for their sons/daughters or they joined to help enhance the youth of this country.  Some even were cadets and as seniors want to give back to future cadets what their seniors gave to them.  So yes, seniors help cadets and teach them new things due to more knowledge and experience.
C/2d Lt. Stephen Pettit, CAP
New Jersey Wing

John Bryan

When I was a cadet I also thought seniors did nothing but watch us work. What you dont see behind the scenes is a very large part of the role of a senior or of a leader. If you feel you have done it all yourselfs that might be a good sign.

Reflect on this:

"A leader is best when people barely know that he exists.
Less good when they obey and acclaim him.
Worse when they fear and despise him.
Fail to honor people, and they fail to honor you.
But of a good leader, when his work is done, his aim fulfilled,
they will say, "We did this ourselves."

               -- Lao-Tzu

footballrun21

#12
deleted
C/2d Lt. Stephen Pettit, CAP
New Jersey Wing

thefischNX01

Yeah, and I noticed that they weren't in Uniform when I visited.   ;)
Capt. Colin Fischer, CAP
Deputy Commander for Cadets
Easton Composite Sqdn
Maryland Wing
http://whats-a-flight-officer.blogspot.com/

NDCS

With cadets in ES ND wing ground teams are 99% cadets. As to 18yr requirement for hurricane Katrina was from a liability issue FICA insurance (federal Govt) does not cover anyone under 18 which means that CAP would have to cover cadet under 18 and your customer request this. With the sue happy culture alot of stuff I used to do (driving cooperate vehicles with only cadets).This was in late 70's
   
   The senior members at encampment are not there just to keep cadets from doing something stupid were are there to mentor and teach, medical issues,admin and alot more. My motto is to have cadets leave encampment with more leadership tools then came with. Biggest problem I have correct is encampment is basic training and cadets with the idea that I am staff I can take easy. I have been senior member staff at seven encampments and 3 Region Cadet leadership Schools.

   As to using cadets I use cadet to their abilities some cadets I would not trust out my sight and other cadets just give the job and turn them loose .
There are senior members who think cadets so be not seen and not heard because they do not work with cadets and do not know their abilities.

;D
Dean Reiter Col CAP
ND/CC ND001

footballrun21

Quote from: NDCS on December 16, 2005, 12:54:25 AM
There are senior members who think cadets so be not seen and not heard because they do not work with cadets and do not know their abilities.

Sir, would a lot of those seniors be from an all senior squadron?
C/2d Lt. Stephen Pettit, CAP
New Jersey Wing

NDCS

No, this wing only has one senior squadron and they will help the cadet unit that is same city with o-rides and  if they asked. I see this attitude mostly from senior member who only interest is that thing with a prop and wings.  ::)
Dean Reiter Col CAP
ND/CC ND001

Pace

The SMs exclusively interested in flying are usually the ones who want nothing to do with cadets.  Usually, you see many of these members from the senior squadrons, but not always.  I still say the only reason many pilots are willing to do O-flights is because it's a very easy and free way to build flight time...plus it gets them a ribbon after 50 flights.
Lt Col, CAP

flyguy06

I am a former cadet and I was a GT member. I went on missions when I was 15 years old.

My only probl;em with cadets being in ES is that they are over active in it and the foresake the true purpose of the cadet program. The purpose of the cadet programis to bulid leaders in an aerospace environment. Its not to make Rangers or Special Forces guys. But a lot of these cadets think thats what they are. Some kind of young Airborne Rnager or something. They come to missions with big knives and all this field gear just to go to an airport and look for an ELT.

The purpose of the cadet programis to promote aviation minded leaders.I disagree withte statement that most senior members fly O-rides to build time. In my Suqdron. The Senior Members are dedicated to youths. They want youths to succeed n life and become good citizens. Now, yes, in my community, if given the choice they would guide cadets to careers that use thjeir minds like Air Force careers. and not careers that use physical like the Army. I myself am in the Army and I enjoy it. But if a cadet asks me for advice I would steer him or her toward the Air Force or Navy into an aviation career. Again, it depends on the SM and his interest and it also depends on what the focus of the Squadron is. We could never have GT's and everyone on my unit would be fine with that.

Pace

Quote from: flyguy06 on December 16, 2005, 08:21:05 AM
I disagree withte statement that most senior members fly O-rides to build time.

Many, not most.  As in far more than just a few in the nation.
Lt Col, CAP

afgeo4

I have no problems with Cadets (en masse).  I have problems with individual cadets who act too young though.  Those will not be picked for ES missions where I'm the team leader, that's all.  Actually, I've met senior members who acted 15 and I wouldn't pick them for my team either.  I'd rather have a mature, intelligent cadet SSgt who's a mission trainee than a fully qualified Captain who acts like an idiot with me.  In the end, I have to know that this person can make the right decision that will save the victim's or even my life if needed.  If he/she can, then I don't care what their age or grade is.
GEORGE LURYE